EBooks - High Prices & Low Prices

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I have been a long time buyer of fiction from Fictionwise (FW), and have
downloaded many files from Gutenberg. I even have a magazine subscription
from FW! However, I am constantly amazed at the high prices some sellers
have for their books. There is little distribution cost, no warehousing,
shipping or printing costs, yet they charge the same price as a hardcover
for many of their books! FW offers many 'open format' books at reasonable
prices, but even _their_ 'closed format' books are highly priced - as high
as a large paperback. I have corresponded with them and they have stated
that they can only offer the prices the publishers allow.

PUBLISHERS - GET WITH IT!!! If you price your product reasonably, people
will buy it and not be driven to pirate it. Look at Baen books - most
people will not pirate their books, as they offer them for a fair price, in
open format.

Now that I have ranted, I feel better....

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On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:44:00 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com> wrote:
> I have been a long time buyer of fiction from Fictionwise (FW), and have
> downloaded many files from Gutenberg. I even have a magazine subscription
> from FW! However, I am constantly amazed at the high prices some sellers
> have for their books. There is little distribution cost, no warehousing,
> shipping or printing costs, yet they charge the same price as a hardcover
> for many of their books! FW offers many 'open format' books at reasonable
> prices, but even _their_ 'closed format' books are highly priced - as high
> as a large paperback. I have corresponded with them and they have stated
> that they can only offer the prices the publishers allow.
>

As someone who works in the ebook industry - I don't think you
have a clue about why prices are what they are.

By *FAR*, the largest portion of the price of a book - in any
form - comes from the overhead costs of creating the book in the
first place. The production costs are minimal.

The author needs to be paid. The agents take their cuts.
The readers need to be paid. The editors need to be
paid. The cleaning crew need to be paid. The heat and
A/C bills need to be paid. The distributer needs to be
paid. The marketing costs need to be paid. The time and effort
get a nicely rendered version of the ebook for different
devices needs to be paid for. Licenses needs to be paid.
The lawyers need to be paid. Get the idea?

Books are like movies. The VAST majority of them lose money.
Quite frequently, they lose LOTS of money. But publishers can
manage to stay in business because every now and then, they
get a blockbuster that covers not only that book's cost, but
the cost of a lot of the other losers, as well.

Do you know why publishers are always going out of
business, merging, etc? One big reason is that there
is almost no profit in publishing. Margins of a few
percent are typical. That's barely enough to survive,
in ANY business. Would you prefer that publishers cut
their prices just a little bit more, and then go
completely out of business?


> PUBLISHERS - GET WITH IT!!! If you price your product reasonably, people
> will buy it and not be driven to pirate it. Look at Baen books - most
> people will not pirate their books, as they offer them for a fair price, in
> open format.
>
> Now that I have ranted, I feel better....

Baen has had an interesting experiment with their library
project, and I've gotten a few of their books. The problem
that I see is that they haven't been, in general, very good
books. They tend to be ones whose print runs expired long
ago, and that wouldn't have gotten distributed otherwise,
or the books are, shall we say, not something that most
editors would have expended too much effort on in the
first place. Let's be realistic - in the publishing world,
you're not going to be giving away the crown jewels for
free. It's not like open-source software, where a company
can reasonably expect to make some money from a few clients
who want support, modifications, etc. There aren't too
many people who would ask a publisher for support in
reading a book. ;-)

- Rich

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"Mike Lipphardt" <dontspammlipphardt@ameritech.net> wrote:
> It costs as much to buy an eBook as is it does the equivalent paperback,
>or sometimes even a hardback.

If you buy a book when it fist comes out the price will be high. But most of the
ebooks I have bought were below the going paper book price.

>I prefer *books* for that cost!

And you should buy paper books if that's what you want. I actually prefer to
read paper books over ebooks. But because I often read on the go I'll suffer the
small PDA screen just for the convenience of portability. Cost? Saving a buck or
two over a weeks read is pretty small potatoes these days...

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:55:58 GMT, Mike Lipphardt <dontspammlipphardt@ameritech.net> wrote:
> "user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
> news:slrncf86ub.qpm.user@localhost.localdomain...
>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:44:00 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
> wrote:
>> > I have been a long time buyer of fiction from Fictionwise (FW), and have
>> > downloaded many files from Gutenberg. I even have a magazine
> subscription
>> > from FW! However, I am constantly amazed at the high prices some
> sellers
>> > have for their books. There is little distribution cost, no
> warehousing,
>> > shipping or printing costs, yet they charge the same price as a
> hardcover
>> > for many of their books! FW offers many 'open format' books at
> reasonable
>> > prices, but even _their_ 'closed format' books are highly priced - as
> high
>> > as a large paperback. I have corresponded with them and they have
> stated
>> > that they can only offer the prices the publishers allow.
>> >
>>
>> As someone who works in the ebook industry - I don't think you
>> have a clue about why prices are what they are.
>>
>> By *FAR*, the largest portion of the price of a book - in any
>> form - comes from the overhead costs of creating the book in the
>> first place. The production costs are minimal.
>
> Eh - perhaps. However, I recall the promise of eBooks when they first came
> out - they were going to be cheaper! No printing cost associated, so less
> cost to the buyer! And what happened? It costs as much to buy an eBook as
> is it does the equivalent paperback, or sometimes even a hardback. I prefer
> *books* for that cost!
>

Who made the promises? Not publishers, I suspect.

I'm an absolutely voracious reader. It's not uncommon for me
to purchase both the ebook and dead-tree versions of a particular
title, since I always have my PDA with me anyhow, and I like
having books available. There's a certain physical aspect to
having a paper book that I find very compelling. But you
can't beat the convenience of an ebook on a good PDA.

As for price - just like paper books that are being
remaindered, you can get ebooks at discounted prices
within a few months of release. I almost never, ever
buy any format of book in the first six months or
so after it hits the streets. You just have to comb
through the "specials" links on most ebook distributers
sites to find the bargains. ;-)

- Rich

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IMHO reference books are great candidates for ebooks because you go back
to them many times. If your like me and have a family that shares the
books they buy you will find ebooks a major disappointment -- you may have
to lend your PDA with the ebook. Given that I'm a total geek PDA addict
that will never do.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:38:31 GMT, user <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:55:58 GMT, Mike Lipphardt
> <dontspammlipphardt@ameritech.net> wrote:
>> "user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrncf86ub.qpm.user@localhost.localdomain...
>>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:44:00 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
>> wrote:
>>> > I have been a long time buyer of fiction from Fictionwise (FW), and
>>> have
>>> > downloaded many files from Gutenberg. I even have a magazine
>> subscription
>>> > from FW! However, I am constantly amazed at the high prices some
>> sellers
>>> > have for their books. There is little distribution cost, no
>> warehousing,
>>> > shipping or printing costs, yet they charge the same price as a
>> hardcover
>>> > for many of their books! FW offers many 'open format' books at
>> reasonable
>>> > prices, but even _their_ 'closed format' books are highly priced - as
>> high
>>> > as a large paperback. I have corresponded with them and they have
>> stated
>>> > that they can only offer the prices the publishers allow.
>>> >
>>>
>>> As someone who works in the ebook industry - I don't think you
>>> have a clue about why prices are what they are.
>>>
>>> By *FAR*, the largest portion of the price of a book - in any
>>> form - comes from the overhead costs of creating the book in the
>>> first place. The production costs are minimal.
>>
>> Eh - perhaps. However, I recall the promise of eBooks when they first
>> came
>> out - they were going to be cheaper! No printing cost associated, so
>> less
>> cost to the buyer! And what happened? It costs as much to buy an
>> eBook as
>> is it does the equivalent paperback, or sometimes even a hardback. I
>> prefer
>> *books* for that cost!
>>
>
> Who made the promises? Not publishers, I suspect.
>
> I'm an absolutely voracious reader. It's not uncommon for me
> to purchase both the ebook and dead-tree versions of a particular
> title, since I always have my PDA with me anyhow, and I like
> having books available. There's a certain physical aspect to
> having a paper book that I find very compelling. But you
> can't beat the convenience of an ebook on a good PDA.
>
> As for price - just like paper books that are being
> remaindered, you can get ebooks at discounted prices
> within a few months of release. I almost never, ever
> buy any format of book in the first six months or
> so after it hits the streets. You just have to comb
> through the "specials" links on most ebook distributers
> sites to find the bargains. ;-)
>
> - Rich
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:11:28 GMT, George Fragos <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote:
> IMHO reference books are great candidates for ebooks because you go back
> to them many times. If your like me and have a family that shares the
> books they buy you will find ebooks a major disappointment -- you may have
> to lend your PDA with the ebook. Given that I'm a total geek PDA addict
> that will never do.
>

Depends on the reader/DRM system for your book. PalmReader
format, for example, can be exchanged between devices, as long
as you trust the other people with your credit card number. ;-)

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user wrote:
> Depends on the reader/DRM system for your book. PalmReader
> format, for example, can be exchanged between devices, as long
> as you trust the other people with your credit card number. ;-)

You don't even really need to trust them with your credit card number.
They can hand you the device and let you enter it when the book is
opened; there's no way in the eReader user interface to learn what that
code was that unlocked the book, and the credit card number isn't stored
on the device in a readable form.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Vendors sometimes get confused between developing products that solve
their problems and those which provide value and willingness to pay to a
customer. No customers = no vendors.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:04:03 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
wrote:

>
> "Ben Combee" <combee@techwood.org> wrote in message
> news:B91Jc.1768$mL5.329@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> user wrote:
>> > Depends on the reader/DRM system for your book. PalmReader
>> > format, for example, can be exchanged between devices, as long
>> > as you trust the other people with your credit card number. ;-)
>>
>> You don't even really need to trust them with your credit card number.
>> They can hand you the device and let you enter it when the book is
>> opened; there's no way in the eReader user interface to learn what that
>> code was that unlocked the book, and the credit card number isn't stored
>> on the device in a readable form.
>
> Or you could just buy open format... I have little use for vendors that
> use
> elaborate systems to "protect" something I have already paid for. Yeah,
> I
> know all the arguments - quite valid 50yr ago. I do not know what the
> new
> answer is, but it does not include clinging to ways that are no longer
> applicable. Would I buy a book that requires me to enter my credit card
> number?! Not likely!
>
>



--
_____________
Thank a veteran

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On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:19:37 GMT, George Fragos <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Vendors sometimes get confused between developing products that solve
> their problems and those which provide value and willingness to pay to a
> customer. No customers = no vendors.
>

Absolutely true, but OTOH, there are DRM solutions out there
that I'm comfortable with - PalmReader, as I mentioned before.

As for ebooks, and their reader base ( or, more accurately,
their small reader base ), I think the biggest issue holding them
back has been the lack of good portable devices. I can
easily read an entire book on my TH-55 with no problem. Would
I have done it with my old Visor Deluxe, T-615C, or most others?
No way. Just too painful.

I see the best place to use ebooks ( besides being good
searchable refrences on the desktop ) as being a convenient
way to carry a lot of reading material around without the
bulk of a paper book. It's unlikely in the extreme that
I would read an ebook on my desktop, for pleasure. Unfortunately,
a lot of publishers seem to think that this is where
their market lies.

- Rich

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"user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message news:slrncfab22.1ql.user@localhost.localdomain...
> Absolutely true, but OTOH, there are DRM solutions out there
> that I'm comfortable with - PalmReader, as I mentioned before.
>
> As for ebooks, and their reader base ( or, more accurately,
> their small reader base ), I think the biggest issue holding them
> back has been the lack of good portable devices. I can
> easily read an entire book on my TH-55 with no problem.

I've enjoyed your contributions to this thread. It is interesting to hear
the perspectives of someone who works in the e-publishing field. Your
intelligent posts made me think you were probably discerning enough
to be a TH55 owner :-).

Seriously though, while I agree that the above is an issue (although I stared
reading ebooks on my Palm V, I fully admit that I am likely to read more
on my TH-55) the bigger issue for me is different formats. It just really
frustrates me to visit ereader.com and then go to mobipocket.com and
see the same books in both formats but some that are only available in one
or the other. You already mentioned the high pre-publication costs of getting
any book to market so it makes me so sad to think of 2 different groups of
people essentially doing exactly the same thing, just in incompatible formats.

Do you know if there are any moves afoot to create any interoperability
standard for ebooks so that we can get away from these stupid format
issues? I just want to read everything in Palm ereader, I really don't want
to have to install extra readers just to get the broadest possible range of
books.

- Julian

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user wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:19:37 GMT, George Fragos <fragos@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Vendors sometimes get confused between developing products that solve
>>their problems and those which provide value and willingness to pay to a
>>customer. No customers = no vendors.
>>
>
>
> Absolutely true, but OTOH, there are DRM solutions out there
> that I'm comfortable with - PalmReader, as I mentioned before.
>
> As for ebooks, and their reader base ( or, more accurately,
> their small reader base ), I think the biggest issue holding them
> back has been the lack of good portable devices. I can
> easily read an entire book on my TH-55 with no problem. Would
> I have done it with my old Visor Deluxe, T-615C, or most others?
> No way. Just too painful.
>
> I see the best place to use ebooks ( besides being good
> searchable refrences on the desktop ) as being a convenient
> way to carry a lot of reading material around without the
> bulk of a paper book. It's unlikely in the extreme that
> I would read an ebook on my desktop, for pleasure. Unfortunately,
> a lot of publishers seem to think that this is where
> their market lies.
>
> - Rich
>
When I got my T3, I decided I'd give the eBook a crack. I bought Da Vinci Code
for $9 on Palm's ebook site. It took a few days to get used to it. How do I set
a bookmark? What's the most comfortable way to read - portrait, landscape,
320x320, 320x480? What's the most convienient way to turn pages - 5-way button,
screen clicking, finger, stylus? Once I figured out how it works for me, I read
more than I ever have - novels, in particular which don't require (m)any
pictures. I can read in bed with the lights off (so not to wake the wife), set a
bookmark, set the alarm with the World Clock app, and be done for the night.

Now I subscribe to Palm's weekly eReader newsletter where they discount many
ebooks each week. Now I have about 5 books queued up in the T3 to read next week
or months from now, all for less than $40. I've learned to like the ebook system.

Books on software engineering/programming and other technical publications still
need real estate.

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"user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
news:slrncfac98.1ql.user@localhost.localdomain...
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:38:49 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
wrote:
> >
> > "user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:slrncf86ub.qpm.user@localhost.localdomain...
> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:44:00 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
> > wrote:
> >> > I have been a long time buyer of fiction from Fictionwise (FW), and
have
> >> > downloaded many files from Gutenberg. I even have a magazine
> > subscription
> >> > from FW! However, I am constantly amazed at the high prices some
> > sellers
> >> > have for their books. There is little distribution cost, no
> > warehousing,
> >> > shipping or printing costs, yet they charge the same price as a
> > hardcover
> >> > for many of their books! FW offers many 'open format' books at
> > reasonable
> >> > prices, but even _their_ 'closed format' books are highly priced - as
> > high
> >> > as a large paperback. I have corresponded with them and they have
> > stated
> >> > that they can only offer the prices the publishers allow.
> >> >
> >>
> >> As someone who works in the ebook industry - I don't think you
> >> have a clue about why prices are what they are.
> >>
> >> By *FAR*, the largest portion of the price of a book - in any
> >> form - comes from the overhead costs of creating the book in the
> >> first place. The production costs are minimal.
> >>
> >> The author needs to be paid. The agents take their cuts.
> >> The readers need to be paid. The editors need to be
> >> paid. The cleaning crew need to be paid. The heat and
> >> A/C bills need to be paid. The distributer needs to be
> >> paid. The marketing costs need to be paid. The time and effort
> >> get a nicely rendered version of the ebook for different
> >> devices needs to be paid for. Licenses needs to be paid.
> >> The lawyers need to be paid. Get the idea?
> >>
> >> Books are like movies. The VAST majority of them lose money.
> >> Quite frequently, they lose LOTS of money. But publishers can
> >> manage to stay in business because every now and then, they
> >> get a blockbuster that covers not only that book's cost, but
> >> the cost of a lot of the other losers, as well.
> >>
> >> Do you know why publishers are always going out of
> >> business, merging, etc? One big reason is that there
> >> is almost no profit in publishing. Margins of a few
> >> percent are typical. That's barely enough to survive,
> >> in ANY business. Would you prefer that publishers cut
> >> their prices just a little bit more, and then go
> >> completely out of business?
> >>
> >>
> >> > PUBLISHERS - GET WITH IT!!! If you price your product reasonably,
> > people
> >> > will buy it and not be driven to pirate it. Look at Baen books -
most
> >> > people will not pirate their books, as they offer them for a fair
price,
> > in
> >> > open format.
> >> >
> >> > Now that I have ranted, I feel better....
> >>
> >> Baen has had an interesting experiment with their library
> >> project, and I've gotten a few of their books. The problem
> >> that I see is that they haven't been, in general, very good
> >> books. They tend to be ones whose print runs expired long
> >> ago, and that wouldn't have gotten distributed otherwise,
> >> or the books are, shall we say, not something that most
> >> editors would have expended too much effort on in the
> >> first place. Let's be realistic - in the publishing world,
> >> you're not going to be giving away the crown jewels for
> >> free. It's not like open-source software, where a company
> >> can reasonably expect to make some money from a few clients
> >> who want support, modifications, etc. There aren't too
> >> many people who would ask a publisher for support in
> >> reading a book. ;-)
> >>
> >> - Rich
> >
> > Some of your points are valid, but many are not.
>
> Actually they are, and I'm quite aware of the costs, since
> I work in the industry. ;-)
>
> Whether the books are
> > printed or etext, the costs you mention are there. However, the other
costs
> > are not, and they cannot be trivial - printing, materials, warehousing,
> > shipping - none of these are required for etext, yet the price is still
> > outrageously high.
>
> What in the world makes you think that there aren't additional
> costs for ebooks?
>
> Let's just look at some of them for a typical ebook distributor,
> that don't apply to print systems:
>
> 0 Multiple high-speed networks to multiple ISP's, to ensure
> maximum availability.
> 0 Cost of maintaining a hot-failover site.
> 0 Multiple terabytes of fast, RAIDed storage.
> 0 Cost of building a provisioning system - including order
> management, billing, DRMing, where applicable.
> 0 Cost of paying the developers, vendors, consultants, etc
> who build all of that infrastructure.
> 0 Cost of paying for the call center and customer service
> people who are needed to help people figure out how
> to click "File/Open" in their reader software.
> 0 Maintentance costs for all of the infrastructure.
>
> I honestly don't see why so many people seem to be so
> clueless about what it takes to run a business, unless it's
> an inability to realize that a company has substrantially
> different requirements than some guy who self-publishes his
> biography and tosses it up on a website.
>
> Now lets take all those additional costs I mentioned
> above, and see how well they stack up against sales; Most
> ebooks sell less than a thousand copies, tops - and that
> includes the $2.00 bargain-basement specials. A really,
> really good moving title might sell a few thousand. For
> the sake of argument, let's say a title sells 10,000 copies
> over the course of a year. In that time, the infrastructure
> you have in place costs you $250,000. You also have a
> few thousand other titles that don't sell nearly as well,
> for prices from $2.00 to $15.00.
>
> Not a whole lot of profit there, is there?
>
> Also, I see that the high prices on many of the books
> > are dropping dramatically - even new releases. As for the comments
> > regarding profitability: if you are not making money, you will not be
in
> > business for long. And someone else will take your place for a better
> > price.
> >
>
> Really? And how many other publishers have stepped into the
> breach in the last few years? The harsh reality is that nobody
> makes much money in publishing - period. The small presses
> manage to eke by for a while, but by and large, they almost
> all disappear in a few years. The large publishers are
> almost unrecognizable, compared to even just a few years ago.
>
> > Regarding Baen, and your disparaging remarks: They and their hosts of
> > buyers and readers might disagree with you as to the quality of their
books.
> > I have many Baen books from authors I greatly enjoy - all bought at
> > reasonable price in etext from Baen or Fictionwise. If you only want
'The
> > DaVinci Code' (another Christian conspiracy, for the people that do not
> > realize that not everyone buys into their mythos) or 'My Life' (let me
do
> > something foolish - and get caught - then try to justify it) or similar
> > "bestsellers", I guess you will be stuck paying the inflated price. For
> > those who want access to books without the gouging prices, there are
> > Fictionwise, Gutenberg and Baen. I am sure others will follow...
>
> Best Seller != Good Literature. If you want fluff, then
> the majority of publishers will be happy to help you out. In
> my experience, Baen has yet to publish anything other than
> fluff - entertaining, yes, but fluff nonetheless. But as
> in many things in life, you get what you pay for.
>
> - Rich
>

Best Seller = Good Literature!? Wow! Which best sellers are you reading?
DaVinci's Code wasn't fluff (I was amazed by how 'light' this supposedly
superb book was)? How about the political self-apologists? Best seller
just means it is popular with the same people who watch Survivor and WWE.
Very little of what I read would be classified as 'good literature' (might
as well be honest), but I do read enough Dickens, Cooper and others to
recognize it. As for the infrastructure you mention, most of it would be
required for any major business. I work for a large corporation and have
assisted with the changes required to go from paper/phone/fax to email/web
for orders and providing information. My employer is not doing this for any
obscure reason - it is for cost savings. If we could post our products on
the web and not have to worry about shipping, warehousing, delivery, etc, we
would!

Trying to explain the ridiculously high prices some publishers charge for
their products by saying "we need infrastructure..." - no kidding, welcome
to the business world. I am not saying these are not needed, nor that they
are costly. Just that the savings publishers get from etext are not passed
on to the consumer - even partially. I recently saw several old books (70
to 100yr old) issued at $7 - 8 for a couple of hundred pages! These books
do not have many of the costs you mentioned, but still bear the same high
price.

Drop the fancy proprietary format and go to open format; drop the price and
sell some books. Fictionwise and Baen do it for a reasonable price;
Gutenberg does it for free. I am sad to hear that the etext moves so
poorly, but perhaps it has something to do with making it so expensive and
difficult. If I had to enter a code every time I watched a DVD or listened
to a CD, I would not buy many of those either!

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user <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote:

> As someone who works in the ebook industry - I don't think you
> have a clue about why prices are what they are.
>
> By *FAR*, the largest portion of the price of a book - in any
> form - comes from the overhead costs of creating the book in the
> first place. The production costs are minimal.
>
> The author needs to be paid. The agents take their cuts.
> The readers need to be paid.

Having just read Mikhail Bulgakov's "The Fatal Eggs", from whom should I
claim my payment?

Luke :-)

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On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:35:35 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com> wrote:
>
> "user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
> news:slrncfac98.1ql.user@localhost.localdomain...
>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:38:49 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
> wrote:
>> >
>> > "user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
>> > news:slrncf86ub.qpm.user@localhost.localdomain...
>> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:44:00 GMT, Unlisted <unlisted@unavailable.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> > I have been a long time buyer of fiction from Fictionwise (FW), and
> have
>> >> > downloaded many files from Gutenberg. I even have a magazine
>> > subscription
>> >> > from FW! However, I am constantly amazed at the high prices some
>> > sellers
>> >> > have for their books. There is little distribution cost, no
>> > warehousing,
>> >> > shipping or printing costs, yet they charge the same price as a
>> > hardcover
>> >> > for many of their books! FW offers many 'open format' books at
>> > reasonable
>> >> > prices, but even _their_ 'closed format' books are highly priced - as
>> > high
>> >> > as a large paperback. I have corresponded with them and they have
>> > stated
>> >> > that they can only offer the prices the publishers allow.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> As someone who works in the ebook industry - I don't think you
>> >> have a clue about why prices are what they are.
>> >>
>> >> By *FAR*, the largest portion of the price of a book - in any
>> >> form - comes from the overhead costs of creating the book in the
>> >> first place. The production costs are minimal.
>> >>
>> >> The author needs to be paid. The agents take their cuts.
>> >> The readers need to be paid. The editors need to be
>> >> paid. The cleaning crew need to be paid. The heat and
>> >> A/C bills need to be paid. The distributer needs to be
>> >> paid. The marketing costs need to be paid. The time and effort
>> >> get a nicely rendered version of the ebook for different
>> >> devices needs to be paid for. Licenses needs to be paid.
>> >> The lawyers need to be paid. Get the idea?
>> >>
>> >> Books are like movies. The VAST majority of them lose money.
>> >> Quite frequently, they lose LOTS of money. But publishers can
>> >> manage to stay in business because every now and then, they
>> >> get a blockbuster that covers not only that book's cost, but
>> >> the cost of a lot of the other losers, as well.
>> >>
>> >> Do you know why publishers are always going out of
>> >> business, merging, etc? One big reason is that there
>> >> is almost no profit in publishing. Margins of a few
>> >> percent are typical. That's barely enough to survive,
>> >> in ANY business. Would you prefer that publishers cut
>> >> their prices just a little bit more, and then go
>> >> completely out of business?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > PUBLISHERS - GET WITH IT!!! If you price your product reasonably,
>> > people
>> >> > will buy it and not be driven to pirate it. Look at Baen books -
> most
>> >> > people will not pirate their books, as they offer them for a fair
> price,
>> > in
>> >> > open format.
>> >> >
>> >> > Now that I have ranted, I feel better....
>> >>
>> >> Baen has had an interesting experiment with their library
>> >> project, and I've gotten a few of their books. The problem
>> >> that I see is that they haven't been, in general, very good
>> >> books. They tend to be ones whose print runs expired long
>> >> ago, and that wouldn't have gotten distributed otherwise,
>> >> or the books are, shall we say, not something that most
>> >> editors would have expended too much effort on in the
>> >> first place. Let's be realistic - in the publishing world,
>> >> you're not going to be giving away the crown jewels for
>> >> free. It's not like open-source software, where a company
>> >> can reasonably expect to make some money from a few clients
>> >> who want support, modifications, etc. There aren't too
>> >> many people who would ask a publisher for support in
>> >> reading a book. ;-)
>> >>
>> >> - Rich
>> >
>> > Some of your points are valid, but many are not.
>>
>> Actually they are, and I'm quite aware of the costs, since
>> I work in the industry. ;-)
>>
>> Whether the books are
>> > printed or etext, the costs you mention are there. However, the other
> costs
>> > are not, and they cannot be trivial - printing, materials, warehousing,
>> > shipping - none of these are required for etext, yet the price is still
>> > outrageously high.
>>
>> What in the world makes you think that there aren't additional
>> costs for ebooks?
>>
>> Let's just look at some of them for a typical ebook distributor,
>> that don't apply to print systems:
>>
>> 0 Multiple high-speed networks to multiple ISP's, to ensure
>> maximum availability.
>> 0 Cost of maintaining a hot-failover site.
>> 0 Multiple terabytes of fast, RAIDed storage.
>> 0 Cost of building a provisioning system - including order
>> management, billing, DRMing, where applicable.
>> 0 Cost of paying the developers, vendors, consultants, etc
>> who build all of that infrastructure.
>> 0 Cost of paying for the call center and customer service
>> people who are needed to help people figure out how
>> to click "File/Open" in their reader software.
>> 0 Maintentance costs for all of the infrastructure.
>>
>> I honestly don't see why so many people seem to be so
>> clueless about what it takes to run a business, unless it's
>> an inability to realize that a company has substrantially
>> different requirements than some guy who self-publishes his
>> biography and tosses it up on a website.
>>
>> Now lets take all those additional costs I mentioned
>> above, and see how well they stack up against sales; Most
>> ebooks sell less than a thousand copies, tops - and that
>> includes the $2.00 bargain-basement specials. A really,
>> really good moving title might sell a few thousand. For
>> the sake of argument, let's say a title sells 10,000 copies
>> over the course of a year. In that time, the infrastructure
>> you have in place costs you $250,000. You also have a
>> few thousand other titles that don't sell nearly as well,
>> for prices from $2.00 to $15.00.
>>
>> Not a whole lot of profit there, is there?
>>
>> Also, I see that the high prices on many of the books
>> > are dropping dramatically - even new releases. As for the comments
>> > regarding profitability: if you are not making money, you will not be
> in
>> > business for long. And someone else will take your place for a better
>> > price.
>> >
>>
>> Really? And how many other publishers have stepped into the
>> breach in the last few years? The harsh reality is that nobody
>> makes much money in publishing - period. The small presses
>> manage to eke by for a while, but by and large, they almost
>> all disappear in a few years. The large publishers are
>> almost unrecognizable, compared to even just a few years ago.
>>
>> > Regarding Baen, and your disparaging remarks: They and their hosts of
>> > buyers and readers might disagree with you as to the quality of their
> books.
>> > I have many Baen books from authors I greatly enjoy - all bought at
>> > reasonable price in etext from Baen or Fictionwise. If you only want
> 'The
>> > DaVinci Code' (another Christian conspiracy, for the people that do not
>> > realize that not everyone buys into their mythos) or 'My Life' (let me
> do
>> > something foolish - and get caught - then try to justify it) or similar
>> > "bestsellers", I guess you will be stuck paying the inflated price. For
>> > those who want access to books without the gouging prices, there are
>> > Fictionwise, Gutenberg and Baen. I am sure others will follow...
>>
>> Best Seller != Good Literature. If you want fluff, then
>> the majority of publishers will be happy to help you out. In
>> my experience, Baen has yet to publish anything other than
>> fluff - entertaining, yes, but fluff nonetheless. But as
>> in many things in life, you get what you pay for.
>>
>> - Rich
>>
>
> Best Seller = Good Literature!? Wow! Which best sellers are you reading?
> DaVinci's Code wasn't fluff (I was amazed by how 'light' this supposedly
> superb book was)? How about the political self-apologists? Best seller
> just means it is popular with the same people who watch Survivor and WWE.
> Very little of what I read would be classified as 'good literature' (might
> as well be honest), but I do read enough Dickens, Cooper and others to
> recognize it. As for the infrastructure you mention, most of it would be
> required for any major business. I work for a large corporation and have
> assisted with the changes required to go from paper/phone/fax to email/web
> for orders and providing information. My employer is not doing this for any
> obscure reason - it is for cost savings. If we could post our products on
> the web and not have to worry about shipping, warehousing, delivery, etc, we
> would!
>

You do realize that this entire paragraph is based on not understanding
what '!=' means, right? ;-)


> Trying to explain the ridiculously high prices some publishers charge for
> their products by saying "we need infrastructure..." - no kidding, welcome
> to the business world. I am not saying these are not needed, nor that they
> are costly. Just that the savings publishers get from etext are not passed
> on to the consumer - even partially. I recently saw several old books (70
> to 100yr old) issued at $7 - 8 for a couple of hundred pages! These books
> do not have many of the costs you mentioned, but still bear the same high
> price.
>

And once again - WHAT savings, exactly? You agree that infrastructure
is needed. Expensive infrastructure. Yet, how is the sale of a few
tens of thousands of ebooks per distributer per year paying for
that cost?

Here's a hint - mostly, it's not. The companies that are in ebooks
now are primarily out there because they want to be first-movers in
a new industry. They're not generally making money, but the
ones that are still in business are staying put because they think
that they need to be in place to have a leg up on the competition
when ebooks really start to sell.


> Drop the fancy proprietary format and go to open format; drop the price and
> sell some books. Fictionwise and Baen do it for a reasonable price;
> Gutenberg does it for free. I am sad to hear that the etext moves so
> poorly, but perhaps it has something to do with making it so expensive and
> difficult. If I had to enter a code every time I watched a DVD or listened
> to a CD, I would not buy many of those either!


Gutenberg is not a valid comparison - it's a volunteer organization
that doesn't have to worry about the majority of the overhead costs
I mentioned. And have you seen some of the Gutenberg files? Not to
disparage the effort that people have put into them, but many of
the texts are not exactly fine examples of copyediting.

What ebook, readers, exactly, require you to "enter a code" every
time you read one of the books?

My personal opinion is that ebooks move so poorly is that there
simply aren't enough devices out there that make reading them
a pleasureable experience. Thus, ebooks are not something that
come to mind when people decide they want something new to read.
The exception is when someone gets a spiffy new PDA/smartphone
and says to themselves, "Hey, what ELSE can I do with this thing
to justify the cost?" But for Joe and Jane Average? They
neither know nor care that ebooks are even an option,
regardless of the price.

- Rich

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Travis" <tjames@spymac.com> wrote in message news:UJcJc.2288$54.26712@typhoon.sonic.net...
> When I got my T3, I decided I'd give the eBook a crack. I bought Da Vinci Code
> for $9 on Palm's ebook site. It took a few days to get used to it. How do I set
> a bookmark? What's the most comfortable way to read - portrait, landscape,
> 320x320, 320x480? What's the most convienient way to turn pages - 5-way button,
> screen clicking, finger, stylus? Once I figured out how it works for me, I read
> more than I ever have - novels, in particular which don't require (m)any
> pictures. I can read in bed with the lights off (so not to wake the wife), set a
> bookmark, set the alarm with the World Clock app, and be done for the night.
>
> Now I subscribe to Palm's weekly eReader newsletter where they discount many
> ebooks each week. Now I have about 5 books queued up in the T3 to read next week
> or months from now, all for less than $40. I've learned to like the ebook system.

Me too. I also went through the familiarity curve with getting comfortable
with reading ebooks, but I came at the subject matter through a different
route. I'm only now starting to read contemporary (paid for) fiction.

Previously I downloaded free stuff from Guttenberg and Memoware and
read lots of the classic literature that I never really read at school. I was
somewhat amused when a friend of mine pointed out the irony that it
was a piece of 20th century technology that finally got me to read these
19th century books. I must admit that the crude formatting did annoy me
though so this experience has made me value (and be willing to pay for)
the effort in having nicely formatted content. I'm probably even going to
purchase commercial versions of some classic literature just for the formatting.

The other thing I still love about ebooks is just the "cool" factor. It is so
nice to know that, with a memory card installed, I can go on holiday, take
a train, wait in a doctor's surgery, and know that I have a small library of
50 books (or far more if I really wanted) on hand to entertain me. I still
remember vividly when I got my first Palm (a Palm V) about 5 years ago,
sitting on my sofa reading my first ebook and thinking that this is the most
exciting piece of technology that I had ever purchased and the first piece
of technology that really did feel like something out of Startrek. Ebooks are
just so cool!

Julian

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
news:slrncfb1er.2ck.user@localhost.localdomain...
<snip...>
> >>
> >> Best Seller != Good Literature. If you want fluff, then
> >> the majority of publishers will be happy to help you out. In
> >> my experience, Baen has yet to publish anything other than
> >> fluff - entertaining, yes, but fluff nonetheless. But as
> >> in many things in life, you get what you pay for.
> >>
> >> - Rich
> >>
> >
> > Best Seller = Good Literature!? Wow! Which best sellers are you
reading?
> > DaVinci's Code wasn't fluff (I was amazed by how 'light' this supposedly
> > superb book was)? How about the political self-apologists? Best seller
> > just means it is popular with the same people who watch Survivor and
WWE.
> > Very little of what I read would be classified as 'good literature'
(might
> > as well be honest), but I do read enough Dickens, Cooper and others to
> > recognize it. As for the infrastructure you mention, most of it would
be
> > required for any major business. I work for a large corporation and
have
> > assisted with the changes required to go from paper/phone/fax to
email/web
> > for orders and providing information. My employer is not doing this for
any
> > obscure reason - it is for cost savings. If we could post our products
on
> > the web and not have to worry about shipping, warehousing, delivery,
etc, we
> > would!
> >
>
> You do realize that this entire paragraph is based on not understanding
> what '!=' means, right? ;-)

Missed the ! - I could not believe that anyone would equate the two. My
outrage got the better of me.

>
>
> > Trying to explain the ridiculously high prices some publishers charge
for
> > their products by saying "we need infrastructure..." - no kidding,
welcome
> > to the business world. I am not saying these are not needed, nor that
they
> > are costly. Just that the savings publishers get from etext are not
passed
> > on to the consumer - even partially. I recently saw several old books
(70
> > to 100yr old) issued at $7 - 8 for a couple of hundred pages! These
books
> > do not have many of the costs you mentioned, but still bear the same
high
> > price.
> >
>
> And once again - WHAT savings, exactly? You agree that infrastructure
> is needed. Expensive infrastructure. Yet, how is the sale of a few
> tens of thousands of ebooks per distributer per year paying for
> that cost?

I am referring to the cost of physically producing and handling the
hardcopy.

>
> Here's a hint - mostly, it's not. The companies that are in ebooks
> now are primarily out there because they want to be first-movers in
> a new industry. They're not generally making money, but the
> ones that are still in business are staying put because they think
> that they need to be in place to have a leg up on the competition
> when ebooks really start to sell.
>

Not many companies are going to be in business for long if their only profit
is their primacy.

>
> > Drop the fancy proprietary format and go to open format; drop the price
and
> > sell some books. Fictionwise and Baen do it for a reasonable price;
> > Gutenberg does it for free. I am sad to hear that the etext moves so
> > poorly, but perhaps it has something to do with making it so expensive
and
> > difficult. If I had to enter a code every time I watched a DVD or
listened
> > to a CD, I would not buy many of those either!
>
>
> Gutenberg is not a valid comparison - it's a volunteer organization
> that doesn't have to worry about the majority of the overhead costs
> I mentioned. And have you seen some of the Gutenberg files? Not to
> disparage the effort that people have put into them, but many of
> the texts are not exactly fine examples of copyediting.

Perhaps I am less discriminating. The Gutenberg's I have read have been
good quality and easy to read. They are plain text, but that is part of
their mandate. The fact that they can do this on a volunteer basis proves
it is not a high capital/expense operation. You do not see volunteer orgs
making computers or cars because those are too expensive to make.

>
> What ebook, readers, exactly, require you to "enter a code" every
> time you read one of the books?

Not everytime you open it. Check the other portion of this thread.

>
> My personal opinion is that ebooks move so poorly is that there
> simply aren't enough devices out there that make reading them
> a pleasureable experience. Thus, ebooks are not something that
> come to mind when people decide they want something new to read.
> The exception is when someone gets a spiffy new PDA/smartphone
> and says to themselves, "Hey, what ELSE can I do with this thing
> to justify the cost?" But for Joe and Jane Average? They
> neither know nor care that ebooks are even an option,
> regardless of the price.
>
> - Rich

Matter of opinion, as you state. For some, it is the cool factor. For me,
it was that as well, but mostly the ease of access. Having 10 - 20 fiction
books available and about 8 - 10 reference works makes it well worth my
while. My wife is the least 'techy' person you could meet and she has
picked up on my old Prism for the very reasons I mention.

Comes down to: some vendors will charge a high price for an inconvenient
format because they have something others want. But some vendors are
supplying a similar product in a more convenient format, at a fair price -
they seem to be making money otherwise they would not be in business.
Perhaps the publishers you refer to are not making money because they are
going about it the wrong way...

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"user" <user@iwantnospam.com> wrote in message
news:slrncfb615.2gd.user@localhost.localdomain...

<snip>

> The rule-of-thumb in the industry is that the cost of paper, printing,
> and production is approximately 15-20% of the list price. Distribution
> is going to be another few percent. So, at best, if ebooks had
> no production and distribution costs whatsoever - which they obviously
> don't - you'd be reducing the list price by about 20% over a print book.
> But since it does cost extra money to produce ebooks, and volume
> is so low, you're probably still in the red.
>
>
>
> >>
> >> Here's a hint - mostly, it's not. The companies that are in ebooks
> >> now are primarily out there because they want to be first-movers in
> >> a new industry. They're not generally making money, but the
> >> ones that are still in business are staying put because they think
> >> that they need to be in place to have a leg up on the competition
> >> when ebooks really start to sell.
> >>
> >
> > Not many companies are going to be in business for long if their only
profit
> > is their primacy.
> >
>
> Precisely. And that is why so many ebook publishers and distributers
> have gone by the wayside - both large and small. Google for references
> to ebook articles from about the 2000 timeframe, and then see how many
> are still doing ebooks today.
>
> It's common for companies to run at a loss for years and years,
> before finally getting into the black. Doesn't mean that they weren't
> right, for staying in the market - there have been enough successes
> at being first-movers that it's often considered to be an acceptable
> risk, if you have deep pockets.
>
>
> >>
> >> > Drop the fancy proprietary format and go to open format; drop the
price
> > and
> >> > sell some books. Fictionwise and Baen do it for a reasonable price;
> >> > Gutenberg does it for free. I am sad to hear that the etext moves so
> >> > poorly, but perhaps it has something to do with making it so
expensive
> > and
> >> > difficult. If I had to enter a code every time I watched a DVD or
> > listened
> >> > to a CD, I would not buy many of those either!
> >>
> >>
> >> Gutenberg is not a valid comparison - it's a volunteer organization
> >> that doesn't have to worry about the majority of the overhead costs
> >> I mentioned. And have you seen some of the Gutenberg files? Not to
> >> disparage the effort that people have put into them, but many of
> >> the texts are not exactly fine examples of copyediting.
> >
> > Perhaps I am less discriminating. The Gutenberg's I have read have been
> > good quality and easy to read. They are plain text, but that is part of
> > their mandate. The fact that they can do this on a volunteer basis
proves
> > it is not a high capital/expense operation. You do not see volunteer
orgs
> > making computers or cars because those are too expensive to make.
> >
> >>
> >> What ebook, readers, exactly, require you to "enter a code" every
> >> time you read one of the books?
> >
> > Not everytime you open it. Check the other portion of this thread.
> >
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that ebooks move so poorly is that there
> >> simply aren't enough devices out there that make reading them
> >> a pleasureable experience. Thus, ebooks are not something that
> >> come to mind when people decide they want something new to read.
> >> The exception is when someone gets a spiffy new PDA/smartphone
> >> and says to themselves, "Hey, what ELSE can I do with this thing
> >> to justify the cost?" But for Joe and Jane Average? They
> >> neither know nor care that ebooks are even an option,
> >> regardless of the price.
> >>
> >> - Rich
> >
> > Matter of opinion, as you state. For some, it is the cool factor. For
me,
> > it was that as well, but mostly the ease of access. Having 10 - 20
fiction
> > books available and about 8 - 10 reference works makes it well worth my
> > while. My wife is the least 'techy' person you could meet and she has
> > picked up on my old Prism for the very reasons I mention.
> >
> > Comes down to: some vendors will charge a high price for an inconvenient
> > format because they have something others want. But some vendors are
> > supplying a similar product in a more convenient format, at a fair
price -
> > they seem to be making money otherwise they would not be in business.
> > Perhaps the publishers you refer to are not making money because they
are
> > going about it the wrong way...
> >
>
> How do you know that the lower-cost publishers are making money?
>
> - Rich

I do not know they are making money, but they are in business and selling
books! Also, much of my complaint was against the proprietary formats,
requiring their own readers, as well as about the price. I do know that if
you go to FW and look at the reader stats, there are a _LOT_ more open
format books in the best seller list. A lower price, no fooling about with
a system that assumes you are a thief, greater ease of use and flexibility
for the reader. More sales, no royalties/fees to owner of proprietary
system for the publisher. Sounds like a winning combination.