Grateful Dead Vocal mics - strange arrangement

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I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.

I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
singling directly into the TOP mic.

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I found my own answer ; Diferential:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/6842/0


"My Last Sigh" <mylastsigh@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NNydnTkq0IvM6jPfRVn-3g@comcast.com...
>I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
>like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.
>
> I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
> placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
> doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
> singling directly into the TOP mic.
>

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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:21:12 -0700, "My Last Sigh"
<mylastsigh@comcast.net> wrote:

>I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
>like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.
>
>I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
>placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
>doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
>singling directly into the TOP mic.

See post a couple of days ago entitled "such a thing as "noise
canceling loudspeaker"."

They are noise canceling mikes for the wall of sound.

Julian

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In article <NNydnTkq0IvM6jPfRVn-3g@comcast.com>,
My Last Sigh <mylastsigh@comcast.net> wrote:
>I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
>like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.
>
>I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
>placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
>doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
>singling directly into the TOP mic.

Yes, this was part of the Wall of Sound system, which was just discussed
here a week ago. Basically the speaker system is behind the band producing
something that approximates a plane wave, and the microphones are dual
omnis wired out of phase, so anything directly in front of them is cancelled
out. An early proof of concept used B&K lab mikes but the band finally
settled on something with a pair of Panasonic capsules. The comb filtering
from the two mikes resulted in some very strange-sounding vocals (not
that Donna's voice wasn't pretty strange to begin with), and of course
all the instruments had to be taken direct or through amps miked offstage
in big padded lockers.

It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors
while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded
godawful.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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In article <bobv-2DD118.00352914062005@news.giganews.com>,
Bob Vandiver <bobv@hellyeah.com> wrote:

> In article <NNydnTkq0IvM6jPfRVn-3g@comcast.com>,
> "My Last Sigh" <mylastsigh@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
> > like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.
> >
> > I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
> > placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
> > doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
> > singling directly into the TOP mic.
>
> Probably you were watching the Grateful Dead Movie, which was filmed in
> '76 just before their "retirement." They were back by 78 but Jerry was
> now on the road to being a junkie and Phil Lesh an alcoholic coke head,
> according to Phil's new book, "Searching for the Sound." A better
> application for the old 'chestnut' "Idle hands are the devil's tools,"
> or something like that, cannot be found.
>
> As for the movie, it's great and readily available. I think it was just
> remastered.
>
> Bob V

It was filmed in 1974 and the film took 3 years to see the light of day.
It was not only remastered, but extensively restored and remixed which
made it sound incredibly better (although back in '77 when it came out,
it was one of the first quad movies and sounded pretty damn cool to my
16 year old ears at the Coolidge Corner Theater). The mastering for both
the movie and accompanying soundtrack were done here by Boulder's own
David Glasser at Airshow. It's worth seeing and the extra features are
also worth checking out.



Edwin
--
http://www.theetherealplane.com

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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:10:05 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article <d8moft$sek$1@panix2.panix.com> ):

> In article <NNydnTkq0IvM6jPfRVn-3g@comcast.com>,
> My Last Sigh <mylastsigh@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
>> like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.
>>
>> I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
>> placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
>> doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
>> singling directly into the TOP mic.
>
> Yes, this was part of the Wall of Sound system, which was just discussed
> here a week ago. Basically the speaker system is behind the band producing
> something that approximates a plane wave, and the microphones are dual
> omnis wired out of phase, so anything directly in front of them is cancelled
> out. An early proof of concept used B&K lab mikes but the band finally
> settled on something with a pair of Panasonic capsules. The comb filtering
> from the two mikes resulted in some very strange-sounding vocals (not
> that Donna's voice wasn't pretty strange to begin with), and of course
> all the instruments had to be taken direct or through amps miked offstage
> in big padded lockers.
>
> It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors
> while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded
> godawful.
> --scott
>

Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals?

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <bobv-4D7642.00415015062005@news.giganews.com>,
bobv@hellyeah.com says...
> In article <edwin-256250.23553314062005@corp.supernews.com>,
> Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@TAKEMEOUTindra.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <bobv-2DD118.00352914062005@news.giganews.com>,
> > Bob Vandiver <bobv@hellyeah.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <NNydnTkq0IvM6jPfRVn-3g@comcast.com>,
> > > "My Last Sigh" <mylastsigh@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
> > > > like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film.
> > > >
> > > > I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one
> > > > placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were
> > > > doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only
> > > > singling directly into the TOP mic.
> > >
> > > Probably you were watching the Grateful Dead Movie, which was filmed in
> > > '76 just before their "retirement." They were back by 78 but Jerry was
> > > now on the road to being a junkie and Phil Lesh an alcoholic coke head,
> > > according to Phil's new book, "Searching for the Sound." A better
> > > application for the old 'chestnut' "Idle hands are the devil's tools,"
> > > or something like that, cannot be found.
> > >
> > > As for the movie, it's great and readily available. I think it was just
> > > remastered.
> > >
> > > Bob V
> >
> > It was filmed in 1974 and the film took 3 years to see the light of day.
> > It was not only remastered, but extensively restored and remixed which
> > made it sound incredibly better (although back in '77 when it came out,
> > it was one of the first quad movies and sounded pretty damn cool to my
> > 16 year old ears at the Coolidge Corner Theater). The mastering for both
> > the movie and accompanying soundtrack were done here by Boulder's own
> > David Glasser at Airshow. It's worth seeing and the extra features are
> > also worth checking out.
> >
> >
> >
> > Edwin
>
> Nope, it was done in '76 and was 3 or so nights at Winterland (I think).
> The concerts were filmed because it was thought that the Dead were
> definitely retiring after those shows. They were still going very strong
> when I saw them in '74.
>
> The film did take a while to produce (not to mention cash). Jerry
> produced it and advocated for the animation sequence that opened the
> film. Phil jokes that this was the best part of the film. Phil suggests

Edwin is correct. It was filmed over 4 or 5 nights (October 16-20, 1974)
at Winterland. I think the cameras weren't there on the 16th. But
unquestionably it was 1974. The "wall of sound" and the dual out-of-phase
vocal mics were not used when the GD resumed touring in June of 1976.

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"Agent 86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
newsan.2005.06.16.01.07.00.959879@control.gov...
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote:
>
> > Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals?
>
> dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have?

Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of
Jerry singing into one of a pair.

Peace,
Paul

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Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>"Agent 86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote:
>>
>> > Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals?
>>
>> dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have?
>
>Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of
>Jerry singing into one of a pair.

I don't think they did with the Wall of Sound, but I may be mistaken. But
taping two 421s together for dual record+PA vocal feeds was not an unusual
practice back then.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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"Ty Ford" <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZsOdnYz7QO4WBSzfRVn-1A@comcast.com...

> >>> Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals?
> >>
> >> dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have?
> >
> > Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture
of
> > Jerry singing into one of a pair.
> >
>
> Thanks Paul. I guess we were smoking the same stuff.
>
> Did the flashbacks ever stop for you?

What flashbacks? Where in the green sodapop curve trillium puppy biscuit?
Uh, what were we talking about?

Peace,
Paul

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tymish wrote:

> >It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors
> >while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded
> >godawful.

> The Wall of Sound : What happens when you give tripping techs and
> musicians too much money.

> "Dude I can see it too. We'll need like 500 speakers, it'll look
> totally cool."

It actually was a very interesting experiment, and the AES paper is well
worth reading. I heard it one time and it sounded good that day in that
venue. Had transportation costs not inflated to make it unaffordable we
might have seen some progress from it. One of the problems was the need
for very precise vocal technique, and this made it nearly unusable by
other bands in multi-act shows.

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<tymish@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I wonder if some sort of headworn dual mic thing would have helped.

No, because the whole point of the dual mike system is that it cancels
out signal coming from one direction, right in front of the mike pair.

If you put it on a headset, you now have to have your head pointed in
the same direction at all times.

>Seems academic now with in ear monitoring.

For the most part it is. It was a silly idea. I'm glad somebody tried
it, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<tymish@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>If you put it on a headset, you now have to have your head pointed in
>>the same direction at all times.
>
>But as long as both mics move together wouldn't the phase cancellation
>still apply?

Right, but the direction that it's cancelling from is changing. Turn
the pair 90 degrees, and now you have the PA system right in the main lobe.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:45:45 -0400, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article <J8hse.969587$w62.312610@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> ):

> "Ty Ford" <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:ZsOdnYz7QO4WBSzfRVn-1A@comcast.com...
>
>>>>> Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals?
>>>>
>>>> dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have?
>>>
>>> Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture
> of
>>> Jerry singing into one of a pair.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Paul. I guess we were smoking the same stuff.
>>
>> Did the flashbacks ever stop for you?
>
> What flashbacks? Where in the green sodapop curve trillium puppy biscuit?
> Uh, what were we talking about?
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>

Exactly! I think we're fading a bit. Try this Guam Turnaround Black Beauty,
it should keep you going til ....what were we talking about?

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:05:33 -0400, tymish@hotmail.com wrote
(in article <1119020733.321744.306400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> ):

> I dunno but the treble from those horn drivers tastes weird......
>

synesthetically speaking....why does my spell checker object to that word?

Ty Ford

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com