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small-diaphragm condenser question

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Anonymous
June 18, 2005 9:10:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hello everyone,

some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.

i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.

so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 11:20:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
> > and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
>
> Yes, especially if they are pressure microphones.
>
> >i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
> >loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>
> No, with a loudspeaker, you need a lot of area to move air. With a
> microphone, you're only detecting the position of the air, you don't
> have to actually move anything.
>
> The only thing you lose with a tiny diaphragm (on an omni) is S/N.
>
> >so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
> >sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
> >or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.
>
> For the most part, the low end corner on any pressure mike is just due
> to the electronics. My old B&K 2615 mikes are flat down to 2 Hz, and
> they'd be flatter yet if the electronics could deal with it.

It's not usually that the electronics "can't" handle extreme LF, but
that they are *designed* not to. This is so that microphones don't pass
super LF energy that can't be heard but creats havoc later in the
signal chain.

Also, most microphone capsules are vented one way or the other (a small
pinhole, or through a specifically designed mechanical component that
"leaks" air). This is so the characteristics of the capsule don't
change with barometric pressure or a change in altitude (the same
thing). This is only true of pressure mics, since directional mics by
nature are already vented.

Only a few specific measurement mic capsules (B&K, MG, etc.) go below a
few hertz but there are some that go down to .5 Hz... and they use the
same electronics as the units that go "only" down to 10Hz.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.karlwinkler.com
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 1:28:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.

Yes, especially if they are pressure microphones.

>i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
>loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.

No, with a loudspeaker, you need a lot of area to move air. With a
microphone, you're only detecting the position of the air, you don't
have to actually move anything.

The only thing you lose with a tiny diaphragm (on an omni) is S/N.

>so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
>sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
>or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.

For the most part, the low end corner on any pressure mike is just due
to the electronics. My old B&K 2615 mikes are flat down to 2 Hz, and
they'd be flatter yet if the electronics could deal with it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 9:04:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:

> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>
> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end?

Why don't you need a huge radio to receive the signal from
WABC, or WLS, or KMOX, or KFI?

The answer is in there...(sort of a skewed analogy, but
along the same lines.)



TM
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 10:31:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1119139819.467560.327320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> genericaudioperson@hotmail.com writes:

> some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
>
> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>
> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end?

A nice, flexible suspension. What they lose is amplitude because there
isn't a lot of surface area for the moving air to push on, which is
why 1/4" diaphragm mics (the typical size for a "measurment mic") tend
to be a bit noisy.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 2:44:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

thanks, Mr. Rivers.

is the noise typically a broadband "hiss" or is it more of a hum?

i'm going to be getting either a pair of DPA's or Earthworks or Schoeps
(if they make a small-d omni), just wondering what the typical noise
culprit is for these mic types.
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 5:03:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com>
>
> some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
>
> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>

** That is a completely false comparison: A microphone diaphragm responds
by moving in sympathy with the air pressure variations going on at the spot
WHERE it is positioned !!! It does not have to create sound energy or
project sound waves into the environment !!


> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
> sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
> or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.


** In the case of a condenser mic's *capsule*, the diaphragm's excursion
about its rest position translates directly into output voltage. IOW -
output voltage at any instant is proportional to the diaphragm's
displacement from zero. The movement is not frequency dependant but follows
only the actual SPL at the surface on the ultra light diaphragm.

( Note: I said *capsule* - since the following pre-amp will have a low
frequency response limit of its own. )

This is quite unlike a bass loudspeaker where the cone's excursion must
become greater and greater as the frequency gets lower ( four times for each
octave ) in order for the radiated SPL to remain constant. This is why
larger cones make more bass, they do not have to move as far for the same
SPL output as a smaller one.

For a dynamic mic, diaphragm excursion increases as the frequency goes
lower, however it only doubles for each octave - but the diaphragm no
longer moves in sympathy with the air pressure variations below the resonant
frequency created by the diaphragm's mass/stiffness and the air volume it
encloses. So dynamics have an inherent low frequency roll off.





........... Phil
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 5:04:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:03:59 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>** In the case of a condenser mic's *capsule*, the diaphragm's excursion
>about its rest position translates directly into output voltage. IOW -
>output voltage at any instant is proportional to the diaphragm's
>displacement from zero. The movement is not frequency dependant but follows
>only the actual SPL at the surface on the ultra light diaphragm.
>
>( Note: I said *capsule* - since the following pre-amp will have a low
>frequency response limit of its own. )

>For a dynamic mic, diaphragm excursion increases as the frequency goes
>lower, however it only doubles for each octave - but the diaphragm no
>longer moves in sympathy with the air pressure variations below the resonant
>frequency created by the diaphragm's mass/stiffness and the air volume it
>encloses. So dynamics have an inherent low frequency roll off.

Perhaps a better way to say it is that output voltage is related
linearly to displacement in condenser mics and to velocity in
dynamic mics. So, linear translation of pressure into voltage
occurs for condenser mics with their mass/compliance resonance
above their working range, and for dynamic mics below their
working range.

In both cases, the diaphram must accurately follow instantaneous
pressure differentials across itself. Diaphragm excursion
is *not* related to frequency per se, or to generator characteristics.

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 5:52:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1119203075.531735.135040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>i'm going to be getting either a pair of DPA's or Earthworks or Schoeps
>(if they make a small-d omni), just wondering what the typical noise
>culprit is for these mic types.

That's a VERY broad range of prices and quality there.

There are basically two noise sources at work here... the noise of the
FET itself, which is 1/f noise and so mostly low-end rumble, and the
Brownian noise of the air molecules knocking around inside the capsule.
The Brownian noise is Gaussian.

As the capsule gets smaller, Brownian noise problems get more significant
but so does the 1/f noise. These days the Brownian noise gets worse faster,
though.

Mikes with cheap FET-IC front ends have another noise source... they use
the leakage of a diode fabricated on the surface of the FET in place of
an expensive and large leak resistor. With those mikes, the leakage noise
is often the most significant noise source. Almost anything with a
cheap prepackaged electret capsule with an integral FET will have this problem.
This noise is more irregular-sounding than Gaussian noise... in some way
it kind of sounds to me like bias rocks on a tape recorder.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 7:30:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"T Maki"

>
>> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end?
>
> Why don't you need a huge radio to receive the signal from
> WABC, or WLS, or KMOX, or KFI?
>
> The answer is in there...(sort of a skewed analogy, but
> along the same lines.)
>


** Or even more appropriate:

How big is a tympani ??

How big is your ear drum ??




............ Phil
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 9:37:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1119203075.531735.135040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> genericaudioperson@hotmail.com writes:

> thanks, Mr. Rivers.
> is the noise typically a broadband "hiss" or is it more of a hum?

Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about (or what I was talking
about). Please quote a bit of the original message if the subject of
the question isn't obvious.

If we're talking about microphone self-noise that you'll hear when
using a lot of gain, it's hiss. Hum means there's something wrong with
the cable.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 2:26:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Karl Winkler wrote:
> It's not usually that the electronics "can't" handle extreme LF, but
> that they are *designed* not to. This is so that microphones don't pass
> super LF energy that can't be heard but creats havoc later in the
> signal chain.

When I get live remote feeds this happens all the time, low energy
I can't hear in my audio room making the compressor/limiter pump in a
way that does not help intelligibility. And analog filters aren't
perfect in slicing out the energy below the roll off point either....

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 6:51:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 05:33:26 GMT, Chris Hornbeck
<chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote:

>Perhaps a better way to say it is that output voltage is related
>linearly to displacement in condenser mics and to velocity in
>dynamic mics. So, linear translation of pressure into voltage
>occurs for condenser mics with their mass/compliance resonance
>above their working range, and for dynamic mics below their
>working range.
>
>In both cases, the diaphram must accurately follow instantaneous
>pressure differentials across itself. Diaphragm excursion
>is *not* related to frequency per se, or to generator characteristics.

After correction by my betters, I need to revise my wording:

Output voltage is related linearly to displacement in condenser
mics and to velocity in dynamic mics. Two models give frequency-
invariant pressure-voltage response: pressure sensitive condenser
mics with their mass/compliance resonance above their working range,
and velocity sensitive dynamic mics with their fundamental
resonance below their working range.

Many real mics find either extreme too tough a criterion, and
have fundamental resonances within the working range. Life's
a bear; then it eats you.

And, for completeness, diaphragm excursion is *not* related to
frequency in any way, or to any characteristics of the electrical
generating mechanism. It ain't a speaker.

Thanks for the Insurrection, and now back to the freeway, which
is already in progress.........

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 8:51:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:30:06 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>Because dynamic mics use an electo magnetic voltage generator, diaphragms
>must excurt proportionally more at lower frequencies to maintain the same
>output.

Have you heard of the term "ex post facto"? If not, you're
going to love it.


>Conderser mic ( capsules) use diaphragm position sensing via varying
>capacitance, so output voltage replicates the excursions made by the
>diaphragm.

Yeah, sure.

Not following you here...


>** Do the planet a big favour Hornbeck - top yourself now.

The colloquilism is lost on me; sorry. Would be very interested
in your alternative model, though.

This is 101 stuff. Extraordinary claims otherwise really
should include some detail.

Chris Hornbeck
1700? Impeach.
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 7:02:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey"
>>
>>i'm going to be getting either a pair of DPA's or Earthworks or Schoeps
>>(if they make a small-d omni), just wondering what the typical noise
>>culprit is for these mic types.
>
>
> There are basically two noise sources at work here... the noise of the
> FET itself, which is 1/f noise and so mostly low-end rumble,


** WRONG - noise generated by a FET is only partly 1/f and mostly plain
white noise.

The circa 1 Gohm resistors used for DC polarising and to bias the FET's gate
are far and away the MAIN source of noise in a condenser mic pre-amp. This
is good old " Johnson " noise that every resistor has - and it is also
WHITE noise.

The capacitance of the mic's capsule filters the noise generated by these
resistors - with a 6 dB / octave slope - converting it into RED
oise - not to be confused with 1/f noise from the FET's gate junction.

So, the noise spectrum from a condenser mic pre-amp is RED at low and mid
frequencies becoming WHITE at high frequencies where FET generated WHITE
noise takes over from Gohm resistor noise.



> and the
> Brownian noise of the air molecules knocking around inside the capsule.


** Air molecule noise is a minor contributor to total condenser mic noise -
easily proved by placing one in a vacuum.


> As the capsule gets smaller, Brownian noise problems get more significant
> but so does the 1/f noise.


** As the capsule gets smaller, so does its capacitance and output voltage
level. The smaller capacitance filters the Gohm resistor noise less well and
the lower output further diminishes the mic's s/n ratio.


> These days the Brownian noise gets worse faster,
> though.


** Huh - air is noisier than it once was ??

You really have to stop confabulating garbage like this Dorsey.

You are just as bad as that Stamler ASS - with his phoney capacitor
measurements.



............... Phil
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 7:15:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave H. wrote:

> P.S. You might consider therapy, you'd be a far happier person without the
> outpourings of bile, and living in Hell as you do must make every day a
> living misery.

Actually the more recent thinking on the
sociopathic/psychopatic personality disorder is that the
person truly does believe in their superiority, that their
abusive behavior is honest contempt rather than a
compensation for feelings of inadequacy, that they have a
pathologically large ego rather than one screaming for
existence, that they are quite satisfied with themselves and
that their anger derives from frustration with the inability
of others to acknowledge their clear superiority.

That's the reason it is an untreatable disorder. The last
thing such an individual wants is to be cured of his/her
superiority.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 8:05:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chris Horn"


A schizophrenic as well as an autistic moron.


Get to hell and stay there !!!!



.................. Phil
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 8:05:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 6/20/05 2:05 AM, in article 3hn4loFhhbrnU1@individual.net, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> Get to hell and stay there !!!!

Phil, in future, when you write a post like this, hit 'delete' just before
you hit 'send'.
Thanks!
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:27:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Was it something I said, Sweety?
Kiss and make up?

Chris Hornbeck
1700? Impeach.
June 21, 2005 4:40:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in
news:D 97f6j02nlf@enews4.newsguy.com:

> Actually the more recent thinking on the
> sociopathic/psychopatic personality disorder is that the
> person truly does believe in their superiority, that their
> abusive behavior is honest contempt rather than a
> compensation for feelings of inadequacy, that they have a
> pathologically large ego rather than one screaming for
> existence, that they are quite satisfied with themselves and
> that their anger derives from frustration with the inability
> of others to acknowledge their clear superiority.
>
> That's the reason it is an untreatable disorder. The last
> thing such an individual wants is to be cured of his/her
> superiority.

One can only wonder why you have such a personal preoccupation with
sociopathic/psychopathic personality disorder, and why it is your
defamatory accusation of choice. Perhaps these and other psychological
disorders which you attribute to others are in fact a bit closer to home
than you would care to admit.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:40:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

bobfan wrote:

> One can only wonder why you have such a personal preoccupation with
> sociopathic/psychopathic personality disorder,

Well, I have this wingnut stalker who once went by the name
Gary Sokolich. That has given me the motivation to put some
time into learning more about it. It's pretty easy to spot
when you know what to look for.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:53:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Wow, Bob, you have a whacko stalker. I'm impressed; that's
real Hollywood street cred.

All I get is this T-shirt drool.

Way to be,

Chris Hornbeck
1700? Impeach.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 4:53:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
> Wow, Bob, you have a whacko stalker. I'm impressed; that's
> real Hollywood street cred.
>
> All I get is this T-shirt drool.
>
> Way to be,

Yeah, I'm a made man. :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 5:10:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

bobfan wrote:

> Looks to me like a pretty good portrait of you, Bob.

This moron is incapable of repartee beyond that of tu
quoque. What a nightmare to have a mind that infantile,
sterile and boring.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 6:56:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:09:46 -0700, Bob Cain
<arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:

>Yeah, I'm a made man. :-)

"A man needs a made" -Neil Young (hope he forgives me)

Chris Hornbeck
"'Cause secretly I'm timid." -Liz Phair
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 11:34:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The AKG 460 will respond down to a few hertz once the output
transformer is removed. Air blasts pick up quite well. If you have a DC
or 2 hz response of the playback system, you can watch the woofers pump
in and out as you move the mic forwards and backwards.

Makes for really tight and deep bass, just watch out for wind! (And
subways)

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 1:12:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag"



** Get to hell and stay there !!!!




............. Phil
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 1:12:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3hp0qbFi3rqjU1@individual.net>,
"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> "SSJVCmag"
>
> ** Get to hell and stay there !!!!
>
> ............ Phil


Not getting any, huh, Phil?

You know, you might have a vicious circle kind of thing going there. On
the other hand, it might keep your DNA out of the gene pool, for the
benefit of future generations...

--
Brendan Doyle
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 1:12:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 6/20/05 7:12 PM, in article 3hp0qbFi3rqjU1@individual.net, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>
> "SSJVCmag"
>
>
>
> ** Get to hell and stay there !!!!

Well Phil I have to refuse you on that one.
Not going to happen.
Not going there.
Not today.
Nope
No
Voluntarily anyway.
I also doubt you have the ability to force the issue in any way so it's
pretty futile of you to wish for things over which you have no control.
Pretty much leads to self-dissapointment and that's not something I;d wish
on anybody.
Sorry I can;t help you on this one.
Take care!
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 1:12:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message...

> Hmmm... It DOES seem to repeat itself...


DVD is just a fad.
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 9:56:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 6/21/05 2:35 AM, in article NyOte.526$HU.506@trnddc03, "David Morgan
(MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:

>
> "SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message...
>
>> Hmmm... It DOES seem to repeat itself...
>
>
> DVD is just a fad.

HAH!

Got me w/that one! Almost hacked maple-banana yogurt across everything.
(and image I'm sure you needed...!)
Anonymous
June 21, 2005 10:12:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message news:BEDDCD0D.ACA7%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...
> On 6/21/05 2:35 AM, in article NyOte.526$HU.506@trnddc03, "David Morgan
> (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message...
> >
> >> Hmmm... It DOES seem to repeat itself...
> >
> >
> > DVD is just a fad.
>
> HAH!
>
> Got me w/that one! Almost hacked maple-banana yogurt across everything.
> (and image I'm sure you needed...!)
>
>

Good to know there are others who actually read in sequence....

DM
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 5:11:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in
news:D 98i1i0qel@enews4.newsguy.com:

>
>
> bobfan wrote:
>
>> Looks to me like a pretty good portrait of you, Bob.
>
> This moron is incapable of repartee beyond that of tu
> quoque.

Repartee trumps truth only in the minds of fools, and I doubt that even the
stupidest of your admirers will fail to recognize the fact that your
pathetic retort is a classic red herring.

> What a nightmare to have a mind that infantile,
> sterile and boring.

I am sure that you have had that nightmare as well as the one in which you
realize that you have a soul that is hateful, deranged and evil.
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 6:02:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in
news:D 97tb802khh@enews2.newsguy.com:

>
>
> bobfan wrote:
>
>> One can only wonder why you have such a personal preoccupation with
>> sociopathic/psychopathic personality disorder,
>
> Well, I have this wingnut stalker who once went by the name
> Gary Sokolich. That has given me the motivation to put some
> time into learning more about it.

You were preoccupied with the purported mental disorders of other numerous
fans of yours long before you devleoped your recent paranoia about being
stalked.


> It's pretty easy to spot
> when you know what to look for.

That certainly explains why you don't have any mirrors in your house.
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 1:26:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:

> hello everyone,
>
> some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
>
> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>
> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
> sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
> or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.
>

It's not an antenna - it just detects one tiny slice of
the wavefronts. The smaller moving mass makes 'em
more likely to be accurate.

--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 12:49:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:26:49 -0400, Les Cargill wrote
(in article <tU_ue.184259$w15.117930@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>):

> genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> hello everyone,
>>
>> some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
>> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
>>
>> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
>> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>>
>> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
>> sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
>> or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.
>>
>
> It's not an antenna - it just detects one tiny slice of
> the wavefronts. The smaller moving mass makes 'em
> more likely to be accurate.
>
> --
> Les Cargill

A lot has to do with the tensioning of the diaphragm. Looser, more lows.

I like bigger diaphragms for lower selfnoise especially for quiet sources.
Louder sources and you don't hear the selfnoise.

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 7:25:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ty Ford wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:26:49 -0400, Les Cargill wrote
> (in article <tU_ue.184259$w15.117930@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>):
>
> > genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> hello everyone,
> >>
> >> some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
> >> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
> >>
> >> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
> >> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
> >>
> >> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
> >> sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
> >> or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.
> >>
> >
> > It's not an antenna - it just detects one tiny slice of
> > the wavefronts. The smaller moving mass makes 'em
> > more likely to be accurate.
> >
> > --
> > Les Cargill
>
> A lot has to do with the tensioning of the diaphragm. Looser, more lows.
>
> I like bigger diaphragms for lower selfnoise especially for quiet sources.
> Louder sources and you don't hear the selfnoise.

I can not make sense of this, a nearby manufacturer prides themselves of
having the tensest membranes around, ie. they put the membrane main
resonance above the audible range, and they also seem to have exquisite
bass response. The membrane area vs. self noise issue is however obvious
from their data as I recall them without checking. Could it be that you
have omitted something from your explanation, such as perhaps
directional characteristic?

> Ty Ford

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
Anonymous
June 26, 2005 4:16:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:25:46 -0400, Peter Larsen wrote
(in article <42BD5B5A.19E86C8@mail.tele.dk>):

> Ty Ford wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:26:49 -0400, Les Cargill wrote
>> (in article <tU_ue.184259$w15.117930@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>):
>>
>>> genericaudioperson@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> some small-d condensers like Earthworks have *really* small diaphragms.
>>>> and other "measurement" mics are also often very small in this way.
>>>>
>>>> i would think those small mics would lose bass response. because in a
>>>> loudspeaker, you need a big woofer to produce the low end.
>>>>
>>>> so how does a tiny little mic like that capture low end? the spec
>>>> sheets show that those things measure flat way down into the 30hz range
>>>> or even down to 10hz. i just don't understand the physics of it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not an antenna - it just detects one tiny slice of
>>> the wavefronts. The smaller moving mass makes 'em
>>> more likely to be accurate.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Les Cargill
>>
>> A lot has to do with the tensioning of the diaphragm. Looser, more lows.
>>
>> I like bigger diaphragms for lower selfnoise especially for quiet sources.
>> Louder sources and you don't hear the selfnoise.
>
> I can not make sense of this, a nearby manufacturer prides themselves of
> having the tensest membranes around, ie. they put the membrane main
> resonance above the audible range, and they also seem to have exquisite
> bass response. The membrane area vs. self noise issue is however obvious
> from their data as I recall them without checking. Could it be that you
> have omitted something from your explanation, such as perhaps
> directional characteristic?
>
>> Ty Ford
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen

not without becoming encylopedic.

Best,

Ty




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
!