Dynamic range - this is how to do it

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Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast. They are doing a
season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is the sixth
symphony.

The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't everybody do
this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:14:54 +0200, martin griffith
<martingriffith@XXyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy
>
>better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then. They'll sort
>that dynamic range problem out for you
>
If only this were a joke...

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

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Arny Krueger wrote:
> martin griffith wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, in rec.audio.pro
> > donald@pearce.uk.com (Don Pearce) wrote:
> >
> >> Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast.
> They are doing
> >> a season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is
> the sixth
> >> symphony.
> >>
> >> The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't
> everybody do
> >> this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.
> >>
> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml
> >>
> >> d
> >>
> >> Pearce Consulting
> >> http://www.pearce.uk.com
> >
> >> The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy
> >
> > better send it off to one of those "mastering" guys then.
> They'll sort
> > that dynamic range problem out for you
>
> Indeed - they'll fix it just like you fix a dog.
>
> If only this weren't a joke.




I'm glad you agree with me....

I'd rather listen to a wide dynamic range MP3 then a compressed* to
he** CD.

* compressed = dynamic range compression, not data compression

Mark

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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news9s3tb$b68$1@panix2.panix.com...

> Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
> into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this.

Heck, even the stock system in my Ford Taurus has compression that can be
switched in, although only on the CD player, not the radio.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

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Julian <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:08 GMT, donald@pearce.uk.com (Don Pearce)
> wrote:
>
> >Grab yourself an MP3 of a typical BBC live broadcast. They are doing a
> >season of the entire Beethoven repertoire, and here is the sixth
> >symphony.
> >
> >The dynamic range in this broadcast is a joy - why can't everybody do
> >this? Just skip the chat at the beginning.
>
> Very Nice, Thanks. I really want Beethoven's 5th. I see it is not
> longer up at the site. Do you know if it is available anywhere else?

Ask on 'uk.comp.sys.mac'

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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On 28 Jun 2005 14:11:55 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Julian <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:

>Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
>into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this. You press the button
>and it's in, you press it again and it's out, and it's the END USER who
>makes the decision.

Most radio listeners don't have these.

>>Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
>>classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
>>make it right and everything else wrong.
>
>It's wrong to squash everything just to deal with the problems of some
>listeners, because compression cannot be undone. If you need to
>compress, do it in playback.

You are absolutely right and there is no technical reason why it
*couldn't* be done this way. I invite you to call your local stations
and tell them how over compressed they are. I don't think you'll be
calling any of my stations however because I under compress as much as
I can.

There are reasons why stations compress:

1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
2) Better signal to noise
3) Better immunity to interference

With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear. If
most people have the devices you talk about reason 1 will disappear
too. I don't think you will like HD radio either however even if it
is not compressed. First of all it has to be limited at least a
little to prevent overload. Secondly, It's going to be mostly 48 or
64 kbps, with a max possible of 96kbps and it is unlikely moststaiosn
will use 96 because they have to give up the data channels to do so.
I auditioned some HD at Las Vegas NAB this year and I was NOT
impressed.

Sigh...

Julian

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On 29 Jun 2005 10:07:44 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Julian <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
>>On 28 Jun 2005 14:11:55 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>Julian <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
>>
>>>Right, this is why high end car radios have compression devices built
>>>into them. At least Blaupunkt and Alpine do this. You press the button
>>>and it's in, you press it again and it's out, and it's the END USER who
>>>makes the decision.
>>
>>Most radio listeners don't have these.
>
>Right. THIS is the central problem.
>
>>>>Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
>>>>classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
>>>>make it right and everything else wrong.
>>>
>>>It's wrong to squash everything just to deal with the problems of some
>>>listeners, because compression cannot be undone. If you need to
>>>compress, do it in playback.
>>
>>You are absolutely right and there is no technical reason why it
>>*couldn't* be done this way. I invite you to call your local stations
>>and tell them how over compressed they are. I don't think you'll be
>>calling any of my stations however because I under compress as much as
>>I can.
>
>Radio stations compress for marketing purposes. They believe that it is
>important to be the loudest station on the dial.
>
>Our local NPR affiliate really does use only mild compression, just the
>gainriding and mild limiting in the Optimod and they don't hit it very
>hard at all. It sounds really quite impressive.
>
>But the issue here isn't broadcasting, the issue under discussion is
>actual recordings. There _are_ some good reasons to squash broadcast
>signals, especially on AM where the available channel dynamic range is
>not so good. But these reasons do not not apply to direct CD release.
>
>In fact, squashing the hell out of CDs can actually be a problem when
>it comes time to run those CDs through a broadcast airchain. Bob Orban
>has an article on the subject somewhere.
>--scott

Not much to argue with here. I am very impressed how you can make a
station sound reasonably loud but not artificial with one of Orban's
expensive Optimods. And yes, the Optimod can't sound very good if the
CD is already stepped on hard!

Julian

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SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>On 6/29/05 1:49 AM, in article tec4c194vnj8mpblv7b3qhbl37l5tdkb1b@4ax.com,
>"Julian" <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
>
>> 1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
>> you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
>> 2) Better signal to noise
>> 3) Better immunity to interference
>>
>> With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear.
>
>Ho HO!
>Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!

I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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SSJVCmag wrote:


> No, the point here is that a nastily hypercompressed recording fed through
> even a moderately aggressive station audio chain will come out sounding
> WORSE than it started (no matter that it started awful!) due to the
> artifacts and how it gets handled...

Not necessarily. If it is already flatlined, the additional processing
may not have than much effect.

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On 6/29/05 3:34 PM, in article d9ut3r$301$1@panix2.panix.com, "Scott Dorsey"
<kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>> On 6/29/05 1:49 AM, in article tec4c194vnj8mpblv7b3qhbl37l5tdkb1b@4ax.com,
>> "Julian" <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
>>
>>> 1) most cars don't have radios with user selectable compressors and
>>> you will sound better in most people's cars if you do compress.
>>> 2) Better signal to noise
>>> 3) Better immunity to interference
>>>
>>> With digital FM in the US reasons 2 and 3 will soon disappear.
>>
>> Ho HO!
>> Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!
>
> I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
> gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.

There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!

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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
<JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:

>Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
>classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
>make it right and everything else wrong.

That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
source should be compressed.

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On 29 Jun 2005 21:05:28 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>So, it's just like FM, only more so?

Great movie; just keeps getting better with time.
*That* was a script.

Chris Hornbeck
"Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief" -F&S

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On 29 Jun 2005 21:05:28 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>>There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
>>you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!

Not true, it fades to the analog signal.
>
>So, it's just like FM, only more so?

Digital does not break up in multipath situations. no more "picket
fence" effect.

Julian

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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:58:47 +0100, Laurence Payne
<lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
><JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
>
>>Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
>>classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
>>make it right and everything else wrong.
>
>That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
>source should be compressed.

Yes, I can't disagree that in a perfect world it is the right way to
do it. In the real world, "Should have" don't cut it. Things are
done the way they are due to the evolution of the technology. If they
knew back then what we know now, things might not be that way now.
When all cars have local compression that would be a first step toward
correcting. In the mean time, turn off the damn radio if it offends
you.

Julian

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Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
> <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
>
>
>>Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
>>classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
>>make it right and everything else wrong.
>
>
> That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
> source should be compressed.

It's all Motorola's fault.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 30 Jun 2005 07:46:03 -0400, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>
>In article <4cd6c156n2qi65sipnfpmqn4v8f2uuim58@4ax.com> lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com writes:
>
>> That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
>> source should be compressed.
>
>What would you label the button so as not to confuse the user?

Loud/Normal

or perhaps

AGE
Under 30/Over 30

Better still, make it an optionally automatic function based on road
speed - no problem these days.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote:

> On 30 Jun 2005 07:46:03 -0400, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >In article <4cd6c156n2qi65sipnfpmqn4v8f2uuim58@4ax.com>
> >lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com writes:

> >> That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
> >> source should be compressed.
> >
> >What would you label the button so as not to confuse the user?
>
> Loud/Normal
>
> or perhaps
>
> AGE
> Under 30/Over 30
>
> Better still, make it an optionally automatic function based on road
> speed - no problem these days.

Oh heavens! Please not another load of sensors and wiring....

(...having spent half the morning helping a neighbour sort out his car)

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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On 6/29/05 9:05 PM, in article d9vggo$5bq$1@panix2.panix.com, "Scott Dorsey"
<kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>> <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I haven't either. In fact, not a single station in this market has
>>> gone FM IBOC yet. But I'm waiting to see.
>>
>> There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
>> you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!
>
> So, it's just like FM, only more so?
Well, Fm starts to get a little noisey, then loses stereo (or stays REAL
noisey) then just gets lost or turns selectivity over to a stronger/local
station signal

Digital just STOPS. Think audio equivalent of those roving sports cams that
lose link with the truck.

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On 6/29/05 11:52 PM, in article qsq6c1phpco3s4857bos9fi5g5ouq23ga4@4ax.com,
"Julian" <JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:07:26 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ho HO!
>> Me thinks he hasn;t experienced digital tv/fm yet!
>
> My earlier post said I DID hear IBOC in Las Vegas last April.
>
> What makes you think I haven't seen digital TV?

Read me.
Not 'seen'.. Experieinced.
We WERE talking fringe here I thought...

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote:
>>Better still, make it an optionally automatic function based on road
>>speed - no problem these days.
>
> Oh heavens! Please not another load of sensors and wiring....

It's already there. My car radio/CD player is also a satellite
navigation system, and the speed info is used for dead reckoning if it
loses its view of the satellites and also to control the volume of the
sound with the vehicle's speed. It's a standard pin assignment on a DIN
radio connector.

--
Anahata
anahata@treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

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Julian wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:58:47 +0100, Laurence Payne
> <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:04 -0700, Julian
> ><JulianPAdamsNo@SpamHotmail.Com> wrote:
> >
> >>Of course it is also nice to hear full dynamic range especially of
> >>classical music in an excellent listening environment! That doesn't
> >>make it right and everything else wrong.
> >
> >That's why car radios should have a compression function. Not why the
> >source should be compressed.
>
> Yes, I can't disagree that in a perfect world it is the right way to
> do it. In the real world, "Should have" don't cut it. Things are
> done the way they are due to the evolution of the technology. If they
> knew back then what we know now, things might not be that way now.
> When all cars have local compression that would be a first step toward
> correcting. In the mean time, turn off the damn radio if it offends
> you.
>
> Julian

I have already done that, problem is the dynamic range compression on
CDs is getting as bad as the radio.

Mark

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:58:57 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
wrote:

>>>> There's no such thing as 'fringe' reception in the traditional sense... Once
>>>> you;re just out of serious primary GREAT reception, you get nada!
>>
>> Not true, it fades to the analog signal.
>
>I didin;t know there WAS an analog backup...

The way it is being done now and will be done for some time is to have
both the existing analog and the new digital signal. The digital
signal has to be delayed for error correction purpose and also the
need for a buffer in the consumer's equipment. I think it is like 5
or 10 seconds delay. The plan is to delay your analog also so they
will be in sync. When signal conditions favor the analog, the
receiver will switch back and forth as needed. At this point in time,
since virtually no digital receivers are being manufactured yet some
of the few stations that are broadcasting IBOC have not yet time
aligned their analog and digital signals. When lots of people are
listening digitally, that will be very important.

The name for HD radio, IBOC stands for In Band, On Channel. Which
means the digital signal is placed in the same band on the same
channel as the analog signal. That is why the total IBOC bandwidth is
only 96kbps. That's all the bandwidth available in the existing
service.

>Yeah, with multipath it just gives up.

I don't think so. Either the signal makes sense digitally or it
reverts to the analog, which may sound like sh*% but I don't think it
will ever just give up.

Julian

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just downloaded 6-9; I see what you mean. Thanks for pointing these out.
Wish I'd been in time to grab the earlier ones. If we're lucky, the BBC
may put 'em out on CD...