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Recording String Orchestra - HELP DESPERATELY NEEDED - JBL..

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Anonymous
June 28, 2005 9:25:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hello!

I've never done anything like this so I don't have any experience exept recording
some vocals.

I'm a classic composer and at the radio station they gave me a big all in one box
which includes:

JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think
Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the right way)

There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them

So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music (indoors).
Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How to
position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics, preamps...)?

TIA!!!

Conan

-------
Appologies for my bad english
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:04:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

12 ft elevation and about 12 ft behind the conductor is a good starting
point.... no they should not be pointed at the floor..... move closer or
use a more directional microphone if you have too much natural reverb from
the hall.... move higher or point the microphones more to the back of the
group if you want more sound from the instruments in the back.... lower for
instruments in the front... if you have a soloist there are other
considerations, to get the proper balance. It's best to have a listening
room outside the hall.... at the very least set up near a door where you can
at least listen with headphones outside the hall. If it's a live concert
and you are set up in time to check levels during rehearsal set the levels
to peak around -10db on the loudest part of the music.

The SE300B is the model number for the amplifier section.... the capsules
available are..
CK91 cardioid
CK92 omnidirectional
CK93 hypercardioid

Try the following links for descriptions of the various stereo methods...

The Josephson Site....

www.josephson.com click on the tech notes and links tab has links to
many other good sources of information....

The Schoeps site....

http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/appendix-tech.html


The Danish Pro Audio site....

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ click on the microphone university tab

The Neumann site is also good... but multiple tabs to get to useful
information...

www.neumann.com or for specific info....


https://www.neumann.com/infopool/download.php?Datei=doc...

https://www.neumann.com/infopool/download.php?Datei=lec...

The above reading should keep you busy for a while.... although any of the
above sources are a good enough starting point.

Rgds:
Eric

www.webermusic.com




<CoNaN247> wrote in message news:Xns968444B4DC22CoNaN247@216.196.97.131...
> Hello!
>
> I've never done anything like this so I don't have any experience exept
recording
> some vocals.
>
> I'm a classic composer and at the radio station they gave me a big all in
one box
> which includes:
>
> JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think
> Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the
right way)
>
> There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them
>
> So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music
(indoors).
> Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How
to
> position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics,
preamps...)?
>
> TIA!!!
>
> Conan
>
> -------
> Appologies for my bad english
>
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 3:13:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music
(indoors).
> Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How
to
> position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics,
preamps...)?
>
> TIA!!!


I would set up a stereo O.R.T.F. pair in front of the conductor's podium, if
flying the mics above the conductor is not an option. Otherwise, fly a pair
15' above the front of the stage. This assumes stereophonic broadcast.


--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
Related resources
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 3:13:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thank you for the answer!

Any idea how to position the mics. Is poiting them 90 deg. against each other an
option if they are on the same stand (like i read somewhere...)? And if you
suspend them above the front of the stage, in which direction to you orient them
then (or do you just leave them hanging downwards)?

Thanks!

Conan

I said dummies :) , so what's O.R.T.F.?


"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:UQkwe.14460$eM6.13543@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:

>
>> So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my
>> music
> (indoors).
>> Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies).
>> How
> to
>> position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear
>> (mics,
> preamps...)?
>>
>> TIA!!!
>
>
> I would set up a stereo O.R.T.F. pair in front of the conductor's
> podium, if flying the mics above the conductor is not an option.
> Otherwise, fly a pair 15' above the front of the stage. This assumes
> stereophonic broadcast.
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
> www.mwcomms.com
> -
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 5:38:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> wrote in
news:Xns968444B4DC22CoNaN247@216.196.97.131:

> JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think
> Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the
> right way)
>
> There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them
>
> So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my
> music (indoors). Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to
> do (for dummies). How to position the microphones on the stand? Do I
> need any other gear (mics, preamps...)?

VERY short version:

Go to a rehearsal and practice. If you are also directing the group, get
someone to record for you.

Place a pair of microphones up 8 to 10 feet high about 6 feet behind the
conductor spread at about a 100 degree spread (open end of the V toward
the group) with the business ends of the mics anywhere from 4" to 10"
apart.

Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels about
half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder. Press Record.
Clap your hands. Do the meters move? Good. You're ready.

Longer version.

The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with different
directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard pattern
(cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in front of
them and less from behind.

Can you get a microphone mount that lets you put two mics on a single
stand? That makes placement easier. Otherwise, you'll need two stands
that you can place very close together (big round bases won't make it).

Placement requires listening. If the room is ugly, set up very close.
If the room adds nice things to the sound back up a bit. If you get too
far back things will sound fuzzy. Too close and you hear individual
players instead of the group as a whole. Too low and the front players
predominate. Too high and the sound gets undetailed.

Put a finger in one ear and move forward and back (up and down if
possible) listening intently to find the nicest sound in one ear. When
you find it, put your mics there.

You have to use the mixer or other mic preamps, because the DAT recorder
doesn't take mic inputs.

I don't know your particular EVO mixer, but it's from a line of PA gear,
not designed for recording. It may be a bit noisy for this job, but it
will work. If the channels have inserts, run your cables from there to
the DAT recorder. The less mixer you travel through, the better.

Set levels on the mixer such that the peaks very seldom hit the red. You
don't want to risk distortion on a classical recording.

The DAT recorder will do just fine. Analog line out from the mixer to
line in. Set levels such that average levels are about half way up and
NEVER NEVER approach max. As long as the meters are moving some, levels
will be fine. S/N ratio on the recorder will far exceed the noise floor
in your room, in your mixer, and in your mics.

How will you monitor the recording? You didn't mention headphones or
speakers. If you can set up outside the performance hall, you can (and
would prefer to) use speakers. If you're in the room with the group, use
headphones--the cleaner and flatter the better.

Record some. Listen. Move the mics, reset levels. Record some more.
Repeat until you're happy. This should be done during rehearsal.

Then, when it's time for the real takes, just start the recorder and
leave it. Don't touch it again (don't change levels, don't move mics)
until you're finished. If you have enough tape, just let it run
continuously until you're finished. That will make you and your
performers less conscious of it.

Finally, make your performers comfortable. They are the ones really
doing all the work. You're just capturing the sound they make. Don't
make a big deal of the gear and the recording. It's just another
session.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 6:30:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:38:39 GMT, Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com>
wrote:

<snipped but saved>

Outta be in the faq.

Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 8:10:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9683DC2D2C027gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.189.191:

First a big THANK YOU for this great tips!


> CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> wrote in
> news:Xns968444B4DC22CoNaN247@216.196.97.131:
>
>> JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think
>> Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected
>> the right way)
>>
>> There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them
>>
>> So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my
>> music (indoors).
>>
> VERY short version:
>
> Go to a rehearsal and practice. If you are also directing the group,
> get someone to record for you.
>

This time i'm there only because of being the composer. So eventually, I will have
to go shake some hands after my comp is finished. I didn't mention there will be
audience in the hall too. My friend is gonna help me but he has the same knowledge
of this as I do.

> Place a pair of microphones up 8 to 10 feet high about 6 feet behind
> the conductor spread at about a 100 degree spread (open end of the V
> toward the group) with the business ends of the mics anywhere from 4"
> to 10" apart.
>

> Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels
> about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder. Press
> Record. Clap your hands. Do the meters move? Good. You're ready.
>
> Longer version.
>
> The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with different
> directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard pattern
> (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in front of
> them and less from behind.
>

So is this also the best capsule (pattern) for this job? I will check the mics
again...

> Can you get a microphone mount that lets you put two mics on a single
> stand? That makes placement easier. Otherwise, you'll need two
> stands that you can place very close together (big round bases won't
> make it).
>

I think I can place them on the single stand.

> Placement requires listening. If the room is ugly, set up very close.
> If the room adds nice things to the sound back up a bit. If you get
> too far back things will sound fuzzy. Too close and you hear
> individual players instead of the group as a whole. Too low and the
> front players predominate. Too high and the sound gets undetailed.
>
> Put a finger in one ear and move forward and back (up and down if
> possible) listening intently to find the nicest sound in one ear.
> When you find it, put your mics there.
>
> You have to use the mixer or other mic preamps, because the DAT
> recorder doesn't take mic inputs.
>
> I don't know your particular EVO mixer, but it's from a line of PA
> gear, not designed for recording. It may be a bit noisy for this job,
> but it will work. If the channels have inserts, run your cables from
> there to the DAT recorder. The less mixer you travel through, the
> better.
>

I don't know this "EVO" mixer also, but as you said, it's probably a PA line. I
have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic preamps (130db) at home, but
I don't think this is better, (the one that they gave me looks... well...
bigger:) ), or is it??? The Mackie has inserts.

> Set levels on the mixer such that the peaks very seldom hit the red.
> You don't want to risk distortion on a classical recording.
>
> The DAT recorder will do just fine. Analog line out from the mixer to
> line in. Set levels such that average levels are about half way up
> and NEVER NEVER approach max. As long as the meters are moving some,
> levels will be fine. S/N ratio on the recorder will far exceed the
> noise floor in your room, in your mixer, and in your mics.
>
> How will you monitor the recording? You didn't mention headphones or
> speakers. If you can set up outside the performance hall, you can
> (and would prefer to) use speakers. If you're in the room with the
> group, use headphones--the cleaner and flatter the better.
>

I'll have to use headphones. I have some above average line Sennheisers.

> Record some. Listen. Move the mics, reset levels. Record some more.
> Repeat until you're happy. This should be done during rehearsal.
>
> Then, when it's time for the real takes, just start the recorder and
> leave it. Don't touch it again (don't change levels, don't move mics)
> until you're finished. If you have enough tape, just let it run
> continuously until you're finished. That will make you and your
> performers less conscious of it.
>
> Finally, make your performers comfortable. They are the ones really
> doing all the work. You're just capturing the sound they make. Don't
> make a big deal of the gear and the recording. It's just another
> session.
>

Thank you again for this valuable information. It should be in a FAQ as mentioned
in one previous post!

Conan
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 8:10:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<CoNaN247> wrote ...
> I don't know this "EVO" mixer also, but as you said, it's probably
> a PA line. I have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended
> range mic preamps (130db) at home, but I don't think this is better,
> (the one that they gave me looks... well... bigger:) ), or is it??? The
> Mackie has inserts.

I'd have far more confidence in the Mackie 1402-VLZ

The JBL EVO may be OK when you want an all-in-one reinforcement
system, but I'd be surprised if the mic preamps were up to even the
level of the Mackie VLZs. Not to mention the complications of trying
to avoid all the other junk (and lugging the big thing around!)
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 8:22:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Eric K. Weber" <eric-nospam@webermusic.com> wrote in
news:Hinwe.102$xG2.1897@news.uswest.net:

> 12 ft elevation and about 12 ft behind the conductor is a good
> starting point.... no they should not be pointed at the floor.....
> move closer or use a more directional microphone if you have too much
> natural reverb from the hall.... move higher or point the microphones
> more to the back of the group if you want more sound from the
> instruments in the back.... lower for instruments in the front...
> if you have a soloist there are other considerations, to get the
> proper balance. It's best to have a listening room outside the
> hall.... at the very least set up near a door where you can at least
> listen with headphones outside the hall. If it's a live concert and
> you are set up in time to check levels during rehearsal set the levels
> to peak around -10db on the loudest part of the music.
>
> The SE300B is the model number for the amplifier section.... the
> capsules available are..
> CK91 cardioid
> CK92 omnidirectional
> CK93 hypercardioid
>

Thanx for the links and info. I'll have to check up the mics (pattern) again...
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 10:21:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<CoNaN247> wrote in message
news:Xns9684132FF41A5CoNaN247@216.196.97.131

> Any idea how to position the mics.

This is an area where not everybody agrees, to say the
least.

> Is pointing them 90 deg.
> against each other an option if they are on the same stand
> (like i read somewhere...)?

That's called XY micing, and is more fully described on this
web page (along with many other micing techniques):

http://www.minidisc.org/mic_setups.html

These are the most popular micing techniques in no
particular order except as stated.

(1) X-Y, IMO *the* one-size-fits-all micing technique.
(2) Spaced mics - probably the second most popular method.
(3) ORTF
(4) Close micing - what you do when you have lots of mics,
you want maximum flexibility at mixdown time, and what you
do if you want to control the degree to which the room
affects overall sound quality.

I routinely make recordings using 1,2, and 4 concurrently.
Yeah, multitracking and DAW!

>And if you suspend them above the
> front of the stage, in which direction to you orient them
then
> (or do you just leave them hanging downwards)?

You usually point the mics at the sound source. You need to
be aware that there are two general kinds of mics - end
address and side address. You point the end address mic in
the preferred acoustical direction, while you point the
active side of the side-address mic in the preferred
acoustical direction.

> I said dummies :) , so what's O.R.T.F.?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.burmajster/O.htm

gives a nice definition, some history, and a picture.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 12:04:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<CoNaN247> wrote in message news:Xns968444B4DC22CoNaN247@216.196.97.131...
> Hello!
>
> I've never done anything like this so I don't have any experience exept
> recording
> some vocals.
>
> I'm a classic composer and at the radio station they gave me a big all in
> one box
> which includes:
>
> JBL EVO(?) mixer (there is also a lexicon mark on it) 16 ch I think
> Tascam DA 40 DAT recorder (i thing the stuff is allready connected the
> right way)
>
> There are also 2 AKG SE300B mic's and a big stand for them
>
> So now I have to record a string orchestra (like 25 ppl) playing my music
> (indoors).
> Can somebody PPPPLEASE give me an advice on what to do (for dummies). How
> to
> position the microphones on the stand? Do I need any other gear (mics,
> preamps...)?
>
> TIA!!!
>
> Conan
>
> -------
> Appologies for my bad english

Your best bet is to employ a professional recordist, then watch and learn.

Peter
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 12:55:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

As my profession is composing, conducting and teaching harmony at the Academy of
music (and thats about all I'll ever do professionally in my life) there is only one
better advice you could give me:

employ a professional recordist, then DON'T watch, DON'T learn and DO what you do
best... :) 

But this time is a special situation and I'll just jump into it... Maybe I'll like
it so much I'll start recording string quartets in my living room :) )


"Peter Hill" <foxgloveaudio@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:D 9tklq$de3$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:

>
> Your best bet is to employ a professional recordist, then watch and
> learn.
>
> Peter
>
>
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:25:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns968471BBB360CCoNaN247@216.196.97.131> CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> writes:

> I think I can place them on the single stand.

Most "found" mic stands don't go nearly high enough to record an
orchestra at a distance. And if you put both mics on a single stand,
you're doubling the weight on the end of a long lever. You need to
think this out pretty carefully before you set up for the gig.

> have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic preamps (130db) at home,
> but
> I don't think this is better, (the one that they gave me looks... well...
> bigger:) )

Use your Mackie rather than an unknown. It's just fine for this sort
of application.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:59:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote:


> Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels about
> half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder.

Probably not worth mentioning but....

If inputs 1 & 2 can be 'steered' between the left or right channels,
make sure that one is set left and the other right, not both central.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:59:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

poppy.uk@ukonline.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote in
news:1gywtem.1jtx1v56ii6yyN%poppy.uk@ukonline.invalid.invalid:

> Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels
>> about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder.
>
> Probably not worth mentioning but....
>
> If inputs 1 & 2 can be 'steered' between the left or right channels,
> make sure that one is set left and the other right, not both central.
>

So, does this mean to PAN the CH 1 all the way to the left and CH2 to the right?
Is this neccessary if I'm using inserts as outputs also?
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:59:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<CoNaN247> wrote ...
> (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote :
>> Carey Carlan wrote:
>>> Cables into channels 1 and 2 of the mixer. Channel and main levels
>>> about half way up. Line out to line in on the DAT recorder.
>>
>> Probably not worth mentioning but....
>>
>> If inputs 1 & 2 can be 'steered' between the left or right channels,
>> make sure that one is set left and the other right, not both central.
>>
> So, does this mean to PAN the CH 1 all the way to the left
> and CH2 to the right?

Yes.

> Is this neccessary if I'm using inserts as outputs also?

Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt and it could prevent you from
getting a 2-channel mono recording. :-(
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:59:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns968472F42E679CoNaN247@216.196.97.131> CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> writes:

> So, does this mean to PAN the CH 1 all the way to the left and CH2 to the
> right?
> Is this neccessary if I'm using inserts as outputs also?

The inserts will send the direct signal (before the Pan control) to
the recorder. If you plug headphones into the recorder for monitoring,
you'll hear left and right, but if you plug your headphones into the
mixer, you'll need to set the pans. It's a good idea to pan the mics
full left and right on the mixer whether you're using the mixer's
outputs (main or headphones) or not. That way, the mixer's meters will
show you what's happening on each channel independently. If one
channel goes away or develops some hum (the meter reads up scale when
the orchestra stops playing) you might see it before you can put the
headphones on and hear it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 1:59:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1120044947k@trad:

>
> In article <Xns968472F42E679CoNaN247@216.196.97.131> CoNaN247
> <CoNaN247> writes:
>
>> So, does this mean to PAN the CH 1 all the way to the left and CH2 to
>> the
>> right?
>> Is this neccessary if I'm using inserts as outputs also?
>
> The inserts will send the direct signal (before the Pan control) to
> the recorder. If you plug headphones into the recorder for monitoring,
> you'll hear left and right, but if you plug your headphones into the
> mixer, you'll need to set the pans. It's a good idea to pan the mics
> full left and right on the mixer whether you're using the mixer's
> outputs (main or headphones) or not. That way, the mixer's meters will
> show you what's happening on each channel independently. If one
> channel goes away or develops some hum (the meter reads up scale when
> the orchestra stops playing) you might see it before you can put the
> headphones on and hear it.

I like the idea of using inserts for output

So if I got this right: I connect mics to XLR mic inputs on Mackie, then the
signal passes THROUGH mic preamp, bypasses all the other stuff an goes out on
insert jacks.

Q: what cables are used to connect Mackie inserts to Tascam DA40. This is an
unbalanced connection, right?

Thanks!


Conan
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:34:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> wrote in
news:Xns968471BBB360CCoNaN247@216.196.97.131:

>> The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with
>> different directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard
>> pattern (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in
>> front of them and less from behind.
>
> So is this also the best capsule (pattern) for this job? I will check
> the mics again...

There is no 'best' without knowing the room. As a rule of thumb, the
better the room, the wider the pattern. Omnis sound great when the room
is great. Hypercardioids fend off a world of noise and reflections.

Cardioids are the popular compromise. They'll do fine.

> I don't know this "EVO" mixer also, but as you said, it's probably a
> PA line. I have a MACKIE 1402-VLZ PRO /w XDR extended range mic
> preamps (130db) at home, but I don't think this is better, (the one
> that they gave me looks... well... bigger:) ), or is it??? The Mackie
> has inserts.

Use the Mackie. The preamps are about the best part of that particular
mixer. Use the inserts. I've recorded many successful concerts with
just that machine.

> Thank you again for this valuable information.

You're quite welcome.

Without knowing more, this is how I'd start. Remember, there are many,
many ways to do this--many choices to be made. The final arbiter are
your own ears. Use them well.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:34:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> wrote
>
>>> The AKG SE300B can have different capsules that pick up with
>>> different directional patterns. We'll assume you have the standard
>>> pattern (cardioid). They pick up most everything in a hemisphere in
>>> front of them and less from behind.
>>
>> So is this also the best capsule (pattern) for this job? I will check
>> the mics again...
>
>There is no 'best' without knowing the room. As a rule of thumb, the
>better the room, the wider the pattern. Omnis sound great when the room
>is great. Hypercardioids fend off a world of noise and reflections.
>
>Cardioids are the popular compromise. They'll do fine.

My basic feeling is that if you don't have any experience, you will
probably have better luck with cardioids in ORTF than with any other
stereo method. I think there is less to foul up. I'm not saying
that ORTF is the best possible method in any particular situation, just
that it is harder to shoot your self in the foot with it.

www.josephson.com has an introduction to stereophony that is worth
reading, but you will learn more by recording a rehearsal, moving the
microphones around, and listening to the playback on speakers, than
you will ever learn from reading descriptions.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:46:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns9684A7C5CAD0ECoNaN247@216.196.97.131> CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> writes:

> I like the idea of using inserts for output

The "plug halfway in" works but it's not very robust. If you really
want to be safe, have someone make you a pair of "Insert Output
cables" with TRS plugs on the console end, with the tip and ring
contacts connected together. This will allow you insert the plug all
the way and still get signal through the mixer. You can proably get an
engineer at the station to make those cables for you.

> So if I got this right: I connect mics to XLR mic inputs on Mackie, then the
> signal passes THROUGH mic preamp, bypasses all the other stuff an goes out on
> insert jacks.

Right.

> Q: what cables are used to connect Mackie inserts to Tascam DA40. This is an
> unbalanced connection, right?

The insert output is unbalanced. I believe a DA-40 has RCA inputs for
an unbalanced connection, so you'd need (sleazy) 1/4" unbalanced to
RCA cables, or (reliable) cables as I described above with RCA plugs
on the recorder end.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:53:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

One more note. Set everything up and try it before the big day. Make sure
you have all the right cables and other parts and know where they all go.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:53:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96845A70A8EE0gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.189.191:

> One more note. Set everything up and try it before the big day. Make
> sure you have all the right cables and other parts and know where they
> all go.

Oh, I'll try my setup on rehersals... and not just once

Thank you for the tips!

Conan
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 12:40:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote:


> There is no 'best' without knowing the room. As a rule of thumb, the
> better the room, the wider the pattern. Omnis sound great when the room
> is great. Hypercardioids fend off a world of noise and reflections.
>
> Cardioids are the popular compromise. They'll do fine.

Not for beginners, so perhaps OT for this thread...

...but the much-neglected crossed ribbons can sometimes knock out
unwanted boomy acoustics - and the rear lobes can be blocked with a
(not too close) screen if they might pick up something unwanted.

I once had to record a piano in a church and make it sound like a
drawing room, crossed ribbons worked.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 4:52:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

CoNaN247 <CoNaN247> wrote in
news:Xns9684A1F21C51DCoNaN247@216.196.97.131:

> But this time is a special situation and I'll just jump into it...
> Maybe I'll like it so much I'll start recording string quartets in my
> living room :) )

There's always that danger...
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 11:32:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<CoNaN247> wrote in message news:Xns9684132FF41A5CoNaN247@216.196.97.131...
> Thank you for the answer!
>
> Any idea how to position the mics. Is poiting them 90 deg. against each
other an
> option if they are on the same stand (like i read somewhere...)? And if
you
> suspend them above the front of the stage, in which direction to you
orient them
> then (or do you just leave them hanging downwards)?
>
> Thanks!

No. O.R.T.F. configuration dictates that the mics are at 110º angles at 17cm
spacing.

However, there is no one correct way to do it. Only an infinite number of
ways to get slightly different results. A 90º angle will work, but depending
on the cardioides used, it might overlap and lose some channel separation.


> Conan
>
> I said dummies :) , so what's O.R.T.F.?


It stands for "Office de Radiodiffusion Télévision Française" the agency in
French broadcasting that developed the miking technique of that name.


A sample of a recording using this configuration that I made during a
rehearsal of a local orchestra can be heard here:

www.tinyurl.com/cq7ng



--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 11:39:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I think I can place them on the single stand.

I would recommend a lighting stand that telescopes to 11' and with a 5/8"
thread adapter to accept your standard mic mounts. Lighting stands are
sturdy and hard to tip over, and they get above the conductor's field of
vision, out of the way. Best option when you can't fly the mics from above.


--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
!