Windows Vista on Notebooks: Why and What Hardware?
Microsoft starts releasing Windows Vista on November 30th. Writing from a mobile computing perspective, Guy Thomas and Barry Gerber offer a number of good reasons to switch to Vista and help you make the right decision about running it on existing or new hardware.
While this thread principally focuses on desktops, members might find some interesting information re: Vista:
List of Vista Supported Hardware & Software
OR, save the money you would spend on Vista AERO Ultimate and get a PS3 with Cell processor, BluRay DVD, controllers, hard drive, nVidia graphics WITH its own OS for $100 more?!
You can skin XP Pro and have your own homegrown VISTA:
Another skin - Vista skin for XP
Send MS a message that an upgrade OS with nothing in it that was promised should be $99!
There are a few things in this article that bother me: I would like to state first and foremost that is comes off as sounding very much like a Microsoft commercial rather than an honest evaluation and recommendation of the new Microsoft operating system. For example, on Vista security, this article said:
"We'll will stick our necks out and predict that in 5 years everyone will be saying praising Microsoft's operating system as the most secure. That system maybe son-of-Vista or Vista with SP5, but Microsoft seems determined to achieve the premier security position."
There is no possible way of knowing this without actually setting up windows vista machines and then comparing the ease of compromising them with another machine running a rival OS such as OpenBSD or any other Unix variant. Just because Microsoft says that it is attempting to make its operating systems "more secure" doesn't mean that it will rise to the top all of the sudden (or even within a timeframe of 5 years). I have used several different iterations of the Windows operating system over the years (staring with version 3.1) , and ALL of them, despite improvements, have been riddled with security holes and instabilities.
As much as I love THG, I must admit that I was rather shocked to read the unqualified statement "Get the fastest CPU you can afford." because to a casual reader, that would easily translate to "get the one with the highest model number". If anything, many of the reviews in this site show that 'better' processors (i.e. w/ higher model numbers and higher clockspeeds) aren't always 'faster' ( there is only a very slight gain in performance at a substancial extra cost).
I think if THG wanted to put out a serious article about vista on notebooks, you guys should stick to your traditional ( and much respected) method of using benchmarks and actual facts. If you want to compare security, how about setting up several machines with different operating systems and comparing how long it takes for them to be compromised? And as for which notebook features will run Vista the best, why not build several notebooks with faster (and slower) processors to compare? I think you will find that your readers are better served with concrete numerical data than vague recommendations.
I don't mean to flame here, but THG, YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THIS!
Quote:I don't mean to flame here, but THG, YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THIS!
Sadly, this has become the rule amongst THG writers lately, rather than the exception. It's ad dollars driven, rather than quality and brutal honesty, when required. What can you do - except call 'em as you see 'em ... 8O
Just my .02 since I couldnt help commenting. Didnt read the review and probably wont since most proclaim how good Vista is or will be but I saw the quote on how hard MS is making Vista more "secure" Pretty much my thoughts on this was summed up by a very interesting article by Scott Grannerman:
"...security researcher who a year or so from now wants to compare the buffer overflow vulnerabilities of the original version of Vista with the inevitable SP1...Security pros have already given Microsoft a deserved black eye over the never-ending string of gaffes and vulnerabilities streaming out of the company."
Very interesting article on how bad just even one part ( and probably the most boring ) of Vista is going to be:
I agree 100% with you and the IE7 section was terrible. I'm not going to let people know about the exploits I already know about IE7, but i'm sure there are a few people on our forums that already know of EXTREME security issues with IE7... I'm sure if you are clever enough with a search engine.. you'll see what i'm talking about.
Better yet..i'm still not ready though to spend $$ on vista.. i'm poor.
but, then again, I understand. You can only transfer Vista licenses to another machine ONCE?!? What kinda bull**** is that?
The bad thing is that we can't effectively boycott Vista, because enthusiasts are like 5% of the computer market. So all those chumps out there who have no idea what a hard drive is will be feeding Vista.
The sad part is that there are still MS fanboys around who take this abuse as "good lovin'" There are a bunch of them around here.
On a side note, just stop reading Tom's Reviews and go to Hexus or HardOCP.
Zorak you've said it exactly. This is simply a *horrible* review. The English mistakes are endless and the language sounds like that of a 17 year old. So many unsubstantiated claims... To take this review even a bit seriously, I would expect at least some drawbacks of the new system, just to appear balanced. Really, so everything is just candies is it? Not one single problem in a completely rewritten OS? Like, that Vista is completely out of reach for most 1-year old laptops? Sounds like a plain MS ad to me.
I hope this is some bad joke.
Oh Zorak, worry not. I think that half of my reason for living is to post on Toms Hardware pointing out how their quality has gone right down the flusher. In the beginning, well over a year ago... I was trashed by tons of readers. Anymore most are VERY open to it.
In fact... here is a funny little thing. Did you read the holiday buyer's guide? Now, granted, that thread went straight to hell and I am sorry for what happened to Sarah for that... but there were a couple interesting admissions, if you read between the line (I was going to point them out there but they had locked the thread by then).
1) Their editorial production coordinator has very little PC experience... I believe the quote was "As for my computer setup, I have the best. I work at Tom's Hardware, what do you expect? But to be honest, I have no idea what's inside of this beast. As long as it's fast and efficient, I am happy. And lucky for me, these gurus keep me well equipped."
So, you are the editorial production coordinator, and you are clueless when it comes to the subject matter of what your website publishes? Maybe an industry change might be in order... I mean, there is a difference between "I am not as sharp as some of the people that I work with" and "I have no idea what's inside".
The next one was the following... not just Sarah, but also charlesk both signed up just to reply to that thread. I guess that it shouldn't surprise anyone, but it seems interesting that the people who run Toms seem to have no connection with those that they post content for.
Not only that, but I (and others here, particularly those who have posted above me), can call their competency into question on a regular basis... and they don't seem to mind that (maybe they know it is true?), but by golly they will sign up when it involves the honor of a girl (OK, I can't fault him for that, quite frankly on that front he did right, just sad that he wasn't on beforehand).
As for Microsoft, I totally agree with you KillerNotebooks. In fact, I actually used to work there back in the Windows 2000 days... and back then I loved them. Yes they were reasonably greedy (as any company should be), but they still seemed to care about the consumer.
Anymore it is blatantly obvious that they don't care at all, and it is sad. If I could change MS... the first thing I would do is to go away from the generational approach to OS development, and go to the Linux incremental approach.
Imagine this... Microsoft Windows only 2 versions (client and server, maybe a 3rd for advanced servers (more than X # of physical processors or something). $100 or $150 for a client license, and you get to use Windows Update free for 4 years. After that, your license runs out and you can buy a new one for further updates. Changes are made and released on a regular basis, so it actually becomes reasonably worthwhile. Maybe instead you just pay $25/yr to extend your license on a yearly basis...
If you stop, that's fine. Your PC is left in its current state, and you just can't access the updates. Just to make sure that no one is pirating, the identity for each computer is a combination of something that is based off of the hardware and the CD-Key. You can upgrade and use as you want, and it will work seamlessly. Make a key upgrade and it will tie the new CD-Key to the new hardware, and that CD-Key will never work with the hardware that you moved away from again.
This way they still make a good profit, they get rid of pirating (just have to secure the system somehow... and they'd make a ton by just getting every version out there to be licensed), but it would be affordable and reasonable. It gives them the ongoing revenue that they want so badly, but in a way that isn't $400 each copy, or whatever... and then it gets rid of the constant (and bane of businesses everywhere) upgrade cycle.
Oh well, I can dream... but something tells me that other hand under my posterior will fill up first, unfortunately.
I couldn't help it, had to sign up to post this.
I check tomshardware almost daily, and I find it informative most of the time, but this article is the most obvious piece of PR I have seen in a long time. I am not sure who this article is meant to but I very much doubt it is for the readers of this site.
If it wasn't for the long time I've been a fan of this site, I would never come back again.
sis booom rah.. gimmie an M.. gimmie an I...
yeesh.. is this article written by a Microsoft Cheerleader, or what?...
Oh ::gush:: its such a WONderful peice of software.. hurry, run out n buy the be$t hardware you can, right away, n get ready for the eye candy.. yummy.. so filling..
Ok, here's my issue with the SS... er, MS.
I sent a notebook in for review at Tom's Hardware Mobility Guru. As a part of their testing process they reinstalled the OS. Now you have like 14 days to activate this thing right?
I get the notebook back, I go to turn it on, BAM! "You MUST activate this product you bought before using it!"
I was like, "Cheese-and-Rice." So I go to do the online activation, well, it won't do it. I have an internet connection and everything but it says it can't connect for some reeason. What happens when MS "activation server" doesn't respond? That's my problem now? So I put the thing away.
A day later I get back around to the thing and try again. Still can't connect. I figure, "Oh, maybe they didn't put the Ethernet drivers on or something." BUT I CAN'T PUT THEM ON OR EVEN CHECK BECAUSE MS HAS THE WHOLE FREAKING THING LOCKED DOWN! You can't get in through safe-mode you can't do anything but look at the MS nag screen and cringe as you think of calling into the telephone activation center.
"Oh, but you had 14 days." Oh, ok - so when I buy a car if I don't send in my vehical registration card GM is going to come put a Denver Boot on my car before work?
MS sucks and their strong arm tactics have gotten even worse with Vista. Being a second rate provider with massive amounts of security holes in their systems that they finally fix YEARS after an entire market segment is created to address them is idiocy! They create a OS that is so suceptable to Viri, Malware, Spyware and everything else then they justify the expense of the new OS because they wrote in their own fixes?!?
I have 2 crazy common sense ideas to problems that just T me off...
1. MS takes 1/100th of their "anti-piracy" budget and launches a strike on companies creating Malware programs and spyware. Why not actually do something that may IMPROVE your image guys.
And what's wrong with this picture?Quote:The cost in treasure continues to rise in the middle east, from $48 billion in 2003 to $59 billion in 2004 to $81 billion in 2005 to an anticipated $94 billion in 2006, according to the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. The U.S. government is now spending nearly $10 billion a month in Iraq and Afghanistan, up from $8.2 billion a year ago, a new Congressional Research Service report found.Quote:Advanced Energy Initiative
The Advanced Energy Initiative aims to reduce America’s dependence on imported energy sources. The FY 2007 DOE budget requests $2.1 billion to meet these goals, an increase of $381 million over FY 2006. Funding will help develop clean, affordable sources of energy that will help reduce the use of fossil fuels and lead to changes in the way we power our homes, businesses and cars.
2. This is some pretty hard stuff to figure out! But, hey, we're serious about finding an alternative fuel boy, we spend the yearly budget for that in 7 days on the WAR ON TERROR! Use the freaking $10 Billion a month we spend on the war to develop an alternative fuel and make the entire middle east a moot point. Take away their ONE resource everyone needs! There's your LONG TERM solution! I wonder if any other countries would want to buy that technology... hmmmmm.
You see what happens when you T me off MS! I have to figure out all the worlds problems when I don't have my games to play!!!
Oh, I agree... the way that they have it now is insane. In fact, I use Windows 2000 at home still simply because I have never seen a reason to upgrade. There is no feature of XP that was "must-have", the same is true of Vista, from what I have read. Oh... security enhancements? That is like saying that they have put a thin mesh over the holes in swiss cheese. Sorry, I never bought into that too seriously. In fact, since I have typically stayed 1 version behind with Windows, I don't know that I have ever bought it... why? When friends upgrade, ask them if they still want their old one. <shrugs> Not like there was ever really a 'killer app' with the OS. Oh... it looks pretty? I actually never liked the XP 'enhancements', because it looked cartoonish and everything took up FAR more space. I mean, I am not mentally retarded... I don't need big shiny buttons with fonts in huge text telling me every little thing. The thin, compact 2K design was good enough for me.
But anyway, that is why I think that MS should move to an evolutionary software design process, instead of a revolutionary one.
I mean... picture it. Windows comes on a CD and installs. No protection, none of that. You just enter the CD key that came with it and it will work, end of story. All drivers, the OS, everything... but maybe it doesn't have all the bells and whistles, such as the anti-virus, firewall, games, and some other things. Basically crippled, but crippled in a way that doesn't prevent the OS from working.
So, you don't have to activate it, but as with all Windows CDs, what is on the CD is missing some (or a bunch) of updates. So you connect to the internet. If it is the first time, then you have to make an account on Windows Update. Basically, they combine the Windows Store and Windows Update. Now, if this is the first time that CD key has been used, then great. No money needed, you have 4 years of updates. You just have to create your account and register your CD key with the account. Every CD key must be registered with Windows Update before you can download ANY updates.
In other words, everyone will want to make sure they can access windows update in order to get security updates, if nothing else.
Then, for the next 4 years, you dan download and update your OS. Oh, what happens if you want a new game or some other product that MS has made? Well, then you can just connect to Windows Update, pay throug hthe store for the product, and blammo, you have it.
No new 'versions' of Windows, instead the OS is just evolutionary. Components are re-developed and updated on an ongoing basis. You just connect to Windows Update once a week and great. Heck, they might include a new shell in one of the updates, you can pick and choose what you want and what you don't... and you just take what you want.
$100 for the OS up front (I think they would DEFINITELY make up the cost difference since I believe that piracy would effectively go away, to a LARGE extent), and $25 a year for every year after the first. Maybe, for each CD Key registered to an account after the first, it is only $15 a year after the first 4 years, that way they even get the group discount thing going.
This gives them their ongoing revenue stream that they want, but without all the restrictive GARBAGE that many people seem to HATE about Windows.
Oh, and don't have an internet connection, or don't have a fast one? Then you can choose to pay an extra $5 or so a year and have CDs mailed to you every 3 months containing the updates. No problem, everyone is happy.
I mean, it could work... and then Windows Update would work much more like the Linux update process. You just have a Linux copy, and you update your copy. Sometimes those updates are just routine updates, and sometimes they are some REALLY cool updates. Heck, there are all sorts of games on the update service that aren't usually included in a distro, but with Linux, if you want them, you just connect and update.
It just seems like a much better solution to me. You would pay less for Windows (well not me, but then again I am using ancient copies, so I am actually arguing for me paying something... go figure), get much better service, and not have the upgrade headaches.
Well with your pricing model, I don't see why it WOULDN'T work. Apple is doing it for $150 and there's 1 version, not a bunch of horseplay get this if you need this and this and that if you need this.
But hey, you can always give us more money and we will upgrade the OS for you. Wow MS, thanks for the PAYMENT PLAN on your over priced OS!
Oh yea, just an update, you can't turn the BIOS back like 10 days so you can get in to install the ethernet drivers. If MS spent a fraction of the time on other aspects as they do on "anti-piracy" maybe there wouldn't be so many haters on this thread.
One of the benefits to what I mentioned, however, is that you also only ever really need to buy Windows once (though, at the end of your 4 year thing, instead of upgrading you may want to buy a newer one just for the sake of driver support). I mean, you buy it once and then are on a reasonably decent upgrade plan. Oh well.
Oh my word... you know, I never even looked at the author.
The reason this reads more like a press release, as opposed to a critical review written by an informed reviewer, is because it was written by Barry Gerber. If you read any of his previous reviews, this is the only kind he knows how to write. I am fairly certain that he never actually touches the product that he writes about, and instead simply goes to company websites, reads their product information, and rewords it for an article.
The only thing that has be absolutely dumbfounded is the fact that this spanned 7 pages and contained over 30 paragraphs. I am truly impressed... then again, the Microsoft website does contain a lot of product 'information'...
Ok, I broke down and called the telephone activation line. I couldn't stand looking at the dead computer any longer.
NOW, I have some real issues with MS...
The telephone activation operator was in India. Good Ole MicroStiff is making sure that the money gets to them and the OS's aren't pirated, but at the end of the day they could care less about "giving back to America... Hell no. We want the cheapest! THAT made me mad(er)!
My notebook is back up and running now and I can test the 7950 GTX cooling mods I developed, DDR2-800 RAM and 240 Mbps wireless that prompted the whole, "Turn it on and find out MS hijacked my entire system."
Hey, I wanted to update the Skin thing. I got a skin called STEALTH OS and it is really nice, the whole deal cost me $20. Chronicle of the stuff I tried
Why is it that IE7 can block every Tom's hardware script window to add an URL yet NetFreakin'Flix and every Mortgage racket out there can sneak their pop-ups through no problem?
Ok, got another update of annoying crap.
So when you go to install a RAID driver when you are installing XP you MUST use a floppy for this F6 procedure.
ok, floppies are like the 2nd most unreliable media out there, the first is smoke signals to get your drivers into the OS!
Let's not address issues like this MS, let's play "catch pirates" because the rest of your OS is flawless.
Yes... I have come to realize that the only way to really deal with the Indian technical support thing is to, every time you get someone from another country that can't speak proper English, say "Excuse me, your accent is very thick. Do you have anyone that you can transfer me to who can actually speak English?"
Do this enough and it will become enough of a problem that they will have to move their support, just for the sake of customer satisfaction.
I got another one for you Windaria, it is the Indian support thing, and I don't have anything against India or Indian people, this is about big business shuckin' our money offshore at the expense of many for the sake of the few.
I went online yesterday to find an MP3 player. I know A LOT about electronics and computers and it was still confusing because of different version and file support, and is this a real vendor weight the itunes option against media player etc. I finally figured out what MP3 player I wanted and I found it at the relatively cheapest place that I still knew, DELL.
I placed the order and thought I was done with it, but I got multiple emails several hours later with this confirmation and that credit card authorization and this build notice and that shipment delay notice... I was overwhelmed! It isn't enough these guys send email after email to get you to the site to buy, they have to hammer you after you buy too? OVER~Automation guys, it's the bane of big business.
The one email I did read said that I wasn't going to actually get the MP3 player for 3 weeks. The MP3 player I could have literally walked down to BestBuy and bought for the same price and had in my hand. Well of course this doesn't work with the timeframe I need it in so I reply to the email saying I want to cancel the order.
About an hour later I get an "undeliverable notice" because the email DELL used to send me this 'confirmation' or whatever doesn't actually accept return emails. I then tried to log onto my DELL account, but since DELL wanted to protect me so bad, and say the password I wanted (that I could remember) didn't have enough capital and small letters and a number in it to be secure, So I forgot what the darn super password thing was and tried to log in 3 times and then was locked out of the account.
I then called DELL to cancel the order and got a computer voice that couldn't understand the things I was trying to say to it, but was extremely polite as it pissed me off. I tried to call back again and after several minutes of prompts, "Do you want a shinier card?", "Say No if you don't want to automatically added to our mailing list.", "Press 3 if you are over 6 feet tall" etc. I finally got to a human who was in India. I had to explain "why" I wanted to cancel the order, verify my identity to cancel the order, sing a little song that was prompted on a teleprompter and in the end was placed on hold 15 minutes until I hung up.
I think electronic communications are great, but I think entirely too many people are leaving their sales and support up to someone else and that isn't good. Where is the acountability anymore? when gigantic companies like MS, DELL and WalMart are outsourcing everything overseas... well, does anyone remember what happened to Rome when they hired out all their mecenary work?
Funny thing... most phone systems seem to have the word Idiot as a trigger to get you to a person ASAP. A friend of mine told me this a while ago and I have noticed, since then, that if I just start screaming "Idiot Idiot Idiot" into the phone, that it gets me to a human quite expediently.
Oh well... just a funny little thing, but it seems to work. I guess that when they setup the phone system that they realized that if someone gets angry at the phone tree, that you'd better get them a human fast.
Hey Windaria, check this out. I just got a web seminar invite as a MS chanel partner and #1 fan of MS. The title?
Windows, Linux: A Pragmatic Approach to the FutureQuote:If you’ve been on the fence about your platform investments, this panel discussion is for you. This CRN NetSeminar, moderated by Vice President/Editor Heather Clancy, will feature a panel of solution providers - like you - that offer consulting services, packaged software and embedded devices. They will discuss the relative merits of technical investments in Windows and Linux, and why they are planning for an interoperable future.
I read that as saying, "Plan B stopgap for the projected loss of market share."
mmmmm, I love Pineapple. I would go for that alone... and then for the laughs, oh well.
You know... I like interoperability. Once Microsoft manages that, everyone will switch over to Linux. It certainly makes my switching an easier decision.
The only thing that is really a holdover for me is Office, but MS just wants so freaking much for it that it is insane...
I like to wait until the flamers are done before I put in my opinions about reviews. Hopefully they're done. In this case, they make a few valid points, although I find it hard to rely upon information provided by someone who can't pick up a telephone to activate their OS nor figure out how to load drivers without a floppy drive. (I wouldn't own a laptop nor PC without a floppy drive. And unreliable?? thinking I've never had a floppy disk not work, but then I'm smart enough to keep mine away from magnets).
I find it a bit disconcerting to see that the reviewer(s) recommend 2 gigs of RAM (after they state that MS only recommends 1 gig), and then point to a couple of laptops that only come with 2 x 512mb of RAM. Now anyone with a brain in their heads knows that this is more than simply adding another stick of RAM. Since laptops almost always (and the 2 in question) have only 2 DIMMS, it requires tossing these 512s out and replacing them with 2 x 1 gig. All of a sudden these laptops aren't so affordable and definitely aren't bargains.
So far I've only trialed Vista Ultimate on PCs and laptops because its all that's available right now for system builders. Anyone who claims Vista Ultimate will run "well" on a system with 2 gigs of RAM and a mid range video card is someone that has no clue. Lessor versions of Vista may be a different story, although I'm skeptical. Ultimate will require 4 gigs of RAM, at least a 6600 C2D, and a top of the line video card to do everything it claims to do "well". Of course if you don't mind popups that your resources are low and closing certain parts of the OS to resolve the problem, then you might be naive enough to think the system is running well. But its certainly not doing everything it was designed to do. Even then, the system will hang and be slow because this OS is bloated crap.
I like MS for the most part. I'm not disillusioned to think that my small business nor myself mean anything to MS. However, I do like and use most of their products. I couldn't care less if they're the most secure. I couldn't care less if their customer service is no better than any other major company in business today. They're better than a Mac IMO because they're designed to run with multiple variations of hardware, something a Mac never has to deal with. In fact, I even get a kick out of Indian accents over the phone. By the time I'm done, I'm sure they're wanting a raise from having to repeat themselves over and over. But reality is that Vista is the most disappointing product MS has created since ME. Ultimate is very heavy and slow with a 7900GTX, 2gigs of DDR2-800, and an Intel dual core running at 4.1GHz. I feel sorry for anyone who runs less hardware and needs to depend upon this OS.
When it comes to reviews, I expect accurate information. I don't feel that this review was accurate at all. It states that MS is now selling versions of XP with Vista upgrades that will be "free" or contain "discounts". The truth is that there is no such thing as a free upgrade, and the discounts are a joke (7-15% of the cost of Vista, depending upon which version you choose). Only systems bought between now and when Vista becomes available commercially qualify for these laughable discounts. Its due out by the end of January '07. So if you think that paying full price for one operating system (XP Pro, the only version that comes with a coupon for Vista) which will become garbage after the upgrade since it can't be transferred to another system, and 7%-15% less for another operating system (Vista) is a deal over a 2 1/2 month period... (doh!). I could list a dozen more inaccuracies in this review, but what's the point? The people reading this don't matter to MS anyway. :-)
BTW, I hate pineapples, so I'm quite happy that MS caters in caramel ice cream for us. :-)
Quote:I find it hard to rely upon information provided by someone who: can't pick up a telephone to activate their...
Can't pick up a phone to activate an O.S.? The point was that it was in India. Why whould I HAVE to activate an O.S. I already paid for? Isn't it enough that the CD was holographic, copy protected, code keyed??? I have to waste ANOTHER 20 minutes and have it shoved right in my face that MS can't even support the U.S.A. by having the telephone activation line here? Is that too much to ask, that our biggest corporations don't erode the economy at home?Quote:I find it hard to rely upon information provided by someone who: can't figure out how to load drivers without a floppy drive
Yea, Um, First YOU need to figure out what I was saying. When you install a RAID driver when first installing Windows you MUST use a floppy drive to do it. Commonly referred to as F6 install procedure by anyone who has DONE IT. That's it, that's your ONE option they give you FLOPPY DISK INSTALL.
So there's your little piece of knowledge you can take away from the person whos information you can't rely on. The ONLY OTHER way to do it is far too complicated for the average person, which lends itself even more to proving my point about MS, and that is to extract the boot sector from a XP Pro OS disk, copy the XP installation files into a directory, slipstream any updates & patches, embed the drivers you need and burn your own install disk.
Does that sound reasonable?Quote:I wouldn't own a laptop nor PC without a floppy drive.
Ok, can I? Would that be o.k. with you? I mean, do we all have to drink with our pinkies up like the floppy supporters of the world? Do you have (2) 100 gig 7,200 rpm drives in a RAID0 and a 512 MB 7950 GTX in your notebook? NO, you don't. If you have a floppy in your notebook, the thing must be about 4 years old or some business class machine which is why you didn't even understand what I was saying. Stay behind the curtain in business class dude.Quote:(floppy disks are) unreliable?? thinking I've never had a floppy disk not work, but then I'm smart enough to keep mine away from magnets
Yea, ok um, you're the floppy di_k king... you're so smart, let's all go back to floppy drives and have 1.44 MB of data saved on technology that was abandoned years ago. To front that "a floppy disk only fails under certain circumstances" is just plain stupid. The point of it is this I was trying to make... I think it is reasonable to expect CD level support. Go ask your "tech guy" if that is reasonable or not.Quote:I like to wait until the flamers are done before I put in my opinions about reviews.
Your first paragraph was all flame no substance whatsoever.
You might want to pass on the caramel ice cream... it's obvious you've had a steady diet of cake your whole life already.
Dearest Mr./Ms. Killernotebooks,
You're upset that I pointed out that you're not as smart as you claim to be? Well count to 10 and read carefully, because I'm about to do it again. I'll assume that because this is a laptop forum and your username is what it is, that you're talking strictly about laptops. This makes it all much simpler.
How long have you been building systems? 1 year? 2? I ask because you have a lot to learn about setting up new systems and you obviously don't have much for tools nor understand how they can be used to remedy the problems you mention. Frankly, it doesn't take much knowledge to buy a few barebones laptops, load them with top of the line hardware, and sell them for a nice profit. Anyone who thinks differently has never tried it. Had you had the knowledge and foresight, all of your problems would have been solved before they occurred.
Point 1: Takes me all of 5 mins each and every time I call MS support to activate an OS, if that. 20 mins?? Me thinks you exaggerate slightly to help emphasize your point about it being too much effort on your part.
Should you HAVE to do it? Well it is THEIR property that you're USING. I haven't read where it states that you have to like it, you just have to agree to it. So yes, you should abide by their terms without posting publicly how you don't care to comply with them. Its better for your business, makes you look like less of a whiner, and makes you look like less of a hypocrite for agreeing in the first place. Do you really think MS cares if you change to Linux or Mac? Try selling either one to enthusiasts or gamers, and good luck with that. You'd be doing MS a favor instead of flaming them at every opportunity.
How would you like it if someone had a problem with one of your systems after their warranty was up and posted all over the internet that you didn't stand behind your products? Your customers may have agreed to your terms, but they won't like it if something fails after the warranty runs out. Does that justify them posting publicly that you don't stand behind your products? Of course not. Its only a matter of time because hardware fails. Maybe then you'll be more sympathetic to MS's situation with piracy and their EULA, but my guess is that you'll just be more bitter and find other things to complain about. I hope you're big enough to prove me wrong.
Now if you don't like the way they set up their rules, don't use their products. Or better yet, make your own OS and come up with a way to prevent others from stealing it that you're happy with. The world is full of people who complain about things as they are, while there's a severe shortage of people who can actually find a better way. If Bill Gates had spent as much time online flaming others as some people here do, he wouldn't be in the position he's in now. Its necessary each time you upgrade a motherboard or RAM to reactivate. Pretty simple process, IMO. Just my opinion, which again, is worth nothing to MS nor you. However, you asked so I answered.
Point 2: Spend a few $ on a disc image program and a decent backup system. Very cheap to cover your laptops. You could have stuck a single disc in your cd-rom and restored your OS to the state it was in when you first sent it for review. You'd never have to activate after a format again, unless you upgrade certain components. Every system builder should know this, and I think most of us use it for obvious reasons.
Acronis True Image 10 = $49.99 USD
USB hard drive = $44 USD
120G laptop hard drive = $89.95 USD
These are retail prices, which you should be able to beat, and all much less than the price of one of your video cards.
Point 3: You're convinced that a floppy drive or slipstreamed OS disc is required to setup a RAID array from freshly formatted discs with XP? Wrong. I install RAID drivers via F6 every day without the need for an installed floppy drive nor a slipstreamed disc. (But frankly for selling systems in bulk its simple to make a slipstreamed CD with all the windows updates and drivers as my 17 yo daughter has been making ours for years. New disc each time we change components, which is about every 2 weeks.) I prefer to use a laptop hard drive in a USB storage device to start the system and apply the RAID drivers. Simple. Just don't load drivers onto the OS of the backup hard drive for any specific motherboard. You should also know how to boot to a single hard drive and setup the RAID array via windows. Then there's using a floppy to USB converter to do it the old fashioned way.
The converter is $10 and the floppy drive is $6. They can be used over and over again without ever installing them and very rarely fail. How do you think Dell, Gateway, etc., load the RAID drivers onto their discs without a floppy installed? :?
That's 3 other options than what you mentioned. There's probably more that I'm not aware of.
Point 4: Neither MS nor I care what you put on your systems for hardware. You just need to learn to use it properly before you rant about how it doesn't work.
If people only posted facts instead of their ignorance I could have cake with my ice cream every day and never get full. But reality is that ignorant people will always use their ignorance as a basis for complaints about what they don't know and are too lazy to learn.
This is why threads get locked down. If you want help, ask. If you have advice to offer, by all means offer it knowing full well that you can't possibly know everything there is to know about every situation. But make sure you have all the facts before you flame a company for protecting their interests, even if their way makes your life a little more complicated. In this case, you had nothing useful to add, so why say it at all? You made yourself look much worse than MS IMO. Yet every post on this subject by you contained some sort of slander toward MS, while it was completely your own fault in the first place for not being prepared for the situation. Food for thought, but sorry I don't have any pineapples to add. :-)
Um thanks, but I think you are the one not as smart as you claim to be. BUT, you are the official MS fan boy, that's for sure. Is the point of my post NOT that you SHOULDN'T have to do work arounds that your ENTIRE post is about? It isn't about me, right? This is a thread about MS. Did you lose track of that somewhere in your extensive "work around" the RAID driver issue? You have grabbed one thing and beat it to death.
You didn't even understand what I originally posted, and then laughably, you opened mouth and inserted foot again, but the really funny thing is you "think" you know. That's great.
:arrow: You obviously have never set up a RAID0 array. You CAN NOT use Acronis True Image in ANY of it's variants (I have True Image Server 9) to image a RAID array. thanks for the helpful advice. The ONLY way even remotely possible would be to create a pre-installation environment with the Acronis plug-in (not that you even understand what that is since you are talking "off the shelf $65 dollar programs here, and speaking to me as if giving a lesson.)
Funny how you suddenly know more about it from your original post AFTER I write it up and you were able to Google it. ... No charge.
:arrow: You and your 17 year old daughter are creating slip streamed boot disks,,, great, but the point again was "Is that reasonable for the average person to do?" If it is so easy, why don't you post a diatribe on how it is done and support it to the average person? I already know how to do it, and I think it is beyond the patience and knowledge of the average person. AGAIN, the whole point!
:arrow: Your "work around" with an external hard drive takes longer then setting up a bank of computers and just letting the OS install with the proper drivers from the start. The point was completely missed though, so you're right.
You know what, you're a genius, so why aren't you doing it? I am not going to start with another guy on Tom's who has got all the answers, which obviously you aren't affraid to share with 58 posts.
Microsoft is great, YOU are great, Acronis is great, your 17 year old daughter slipstreaming OS's is great, removable storage is great, systems with 2 gigs of RAM are great, VISTA is great, Workarounds instead of solutions from providers are great, a huge company taking American dollars and shipping them offshore is great, in short... it's all great ... sorry I offended you.
Excuse me but this thread was about a review on a laptops running Vista, until you turned it into a MS flame about everything from activation to loading RAID drivers. I gave you a week to get it out of your system before I posted. However flaming seems to be your strong point, as computer knowledge definitely isn't.
I see what I like and don't like about each product, and switch if I don't like it, rather than continue to use it while posting publicly that I'm an idiot for doing so. That would be you? Go figure.
You won't see Vista on any of our personal machines for this reason, other than for testing purposes on backup drives. IMO, its expensive and overloaded crap. I believe I previously compared it to ME, but maybe that was before your time. I turned off Vista's silly security popups after a few hours as it did little to protect my machine, but lots to slow down my system and work.
So now your point is that you shouldn't have to do a work around? (Which again, for the record, has nothing to do with the original thread topic.) My mistake for reading your posts as there were no work arounds nor could you be bothered with learning them. No biggy to me, as its your loss.
Once again, I'll provide accurate information that you can either use or find an excuse to discard.
I use Acronis True Image Home 9 (and now Home 10) to backup and my RAID 0 array on my computer weekly. We also 9.1 Server to backup our server (2003 SBS) with a RAID 10 array. Both have worked with RAID arrays for the past 2 years on our systems, but maybe longer for others. A simple email to Acronis support will verify that all of their programs work with RAID arrays, and any size hard drives. This is why we switched from Norton Ghost years ago. Acronis provides a free download for you to try, if you can spend the time to do so. Even lists the benefits of using RAID arrays on their site for each type.
You're correct though, Acronis is great. My daughter is great. Microsoft is still the best game in the business today, bar none. As technology advances, work arounds will always be a part of the game to keep up. However it does take effort to keep on top of it all. Some of us find it worth it.
As far as off-shoring goes, (which again has nothing to do with the thread topic) you can thank your republican politicians (George Bush senior) for coming up with NAFTA and your democrat politicians (Bill Clinton) for passing it. Or you can go back to school and educate yourself how to run for office and do a better job instead of turning a thread on laptops that run Vista into your own personal political debate and flaming spotlight. Being an American citizen and an Australian resident, I couldn't care less where MS's $ goes, and AU does a much better job of keeping AU $ in AU. Do you realise that this forum is read by people in other countries who couldn't care less about your American agenda?
It takes 10 minutes to load an OS to a backup drive. You can even use Windows 2000 if you can't be bothered with activation for XP. One time deal, and ready for any system in the future. Then it takes all of 2 seconds to plug in the USB device each time to install drivers for any OS, or about the same time as loading a floppy disk.
Why aren't I doing it? Um.. I've owned/operated a custom computer shop since 1995, so have been doing it for quite some time now. I've been building systems since the 5 1/4 x 5 1/4 diskette systems were invented.
You don't offend me. In fact I find your ignorance quite amusing. I thoroughly enjoy pointing out untruths and lack of experience. As long as other readers know when they're being fed BS, I'm quite happy. And so are our customers.
You can have the last word as the facts are now here for people who really care to learn. :-)
:arrow: First it went from Floppies are great for installing drivers
I corrected you because you didn't understand the difference between installing drivers and installing disk controllers with a fresh OS install.
:arrow: Then your post supposedly contained no work arounds, but the whole Acronis topic was started by you as a way to avoid F6 installs, floppies etc. ??? If it's not related, you shouldn't have brought it up.
:arrow: Then it went into how you were Acronis~ing RAID setups.
I corrected you that that can not be done with RAID0. You can not take a computer with no OS and use a disk image of the OS and put it on the new disk.
:!: Your image WILL NOT have the required RAID driver for the OS to work, and it will blue screen every time. ? any nugget knows that ?
:!: Acronis DOES NOT support RAID from their Linux based "rescue disk" so how are you going to get Acronis to recognize the RAID array? It will see NO DISKS on the system without the driver?
:idea: Acronis WILL SUPPORT RAID if you're running it from within Windows, which is what you guys are doing. You have the RAID drivers already installed. and are making a simple disk image of the drives. To re-image those is no problem for YOU either because you have multiple disks available on the drive controller.
:arrow: Then you are preaching to me about Acronis HOME, which I have Acronis True Image Server, a difference between a $69 piece of software and a $999 piece of software. I said that before, now you suddenly have server too. Your posting gets more involved after each time I correct you, and that's good you're learning, but you are still a long way from snatching the pebble grasshopper.
Ok, you're backing up RAID arrays weekly, that's great. Once the OS has the driver it is no problem. You can do all the backing up you want. Either from Aconis on that system, on a server or from anywhere you are running it. Aconis will image anything, but your ignorance of the difference between just making an image and what you can do with it is the whole problem of your understanding something that ISN'T what YOU are doing, and is what someone else is doing. I can tell from your post you are some system admin somewhere, and you have little concern with the end user. Your work-arounds are all "shop based", it's all you guys doing it right there and the end use be damned. That's great for your already sizable GOD complex, but it isn't duplicatable.
Here's the problem with your post, it applies to servers and desktops. It applies to being there with the computer, someone has either brought it in and you are doing it or you went there. YOU'RE LOCAL. I stay down in the trenches with the average person because I need solutions that THEY can use. I can't exactly jump on a plane and go to Nepal or South Africa or Singapore or Korea and say, "Here I am to fix your computer."
No little guy, I need to have something DUPLICATABLE. I need something that can be explained and worked through with what the average person that buys one of my systems will have on hand. ANYONE can do it if they have the system in front of them and they themselves are doing it in their own shop. Apollo 13, NO PROBLEM here on Earth, but when they have a box on the ship with the most useful thing being duct tape... it's a different story.
You're knowledge and skill level increase when your systems leave the shop bro. I have systems all over the world, I simply CAN'T use the home grown work arounds you have come up with. They are ingenius though. I am suppost to use one MS product installed on an external hard drive to boot to so that I can make the installation of another MS product easier. Which again IS THE WHOLE POINT! IS IT REAONABLE FOR ME TO ASSUME MY CUSTOMER WILL NOT HAVE THIS LEVEL OF SKILL, AND ADDITIONAL HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE? YES.
You posted a link to Acronis about RAID10 arrays. That's WONDERFUL, this isn't about a RAID10. Acronis supports what I stated above. You can not image a RAID0 OS that requires a driver FROM RAID disks because Acronis doesn't have the driver. Period. The ONLY way to do it, as I stated before, is to create your own PreInstallation environment and use the Acronis Plug-In. That's it. Acronis has said that ALL OVER the internet. You keep relying on Acronis, but it can NOT be used in the way that you are saying because you are speaking from pure THEORY1 That is evident because you are posting links to things like Acronis RAID10 which is so far out in left field that it's amazing.
The bottom line is that your posts have completely proven my point. That work-arounds are the norm in this industry compliments of MS & the OS. You have workarounds to your limited role and knowledge level, I have workarounds, and even Microsoft has work-arounds for their own product instead of having solutions or even building solutions in. TechNet is loaded to the gills with work-arounds. A XP Pro disk, an OS that has been out for 3 years, if you get a disk from June 2006 STILL needs 129 MB of downloads and patches. But hey, heeeeeeere's VISTA, and this time we got it right.
Funny if you own this custom computer shop, that will remain nameless. You take every other opportunity to throw out your credentials... but no link in your post OR in your signature, OR in your profile, in fact, it doesn't even say what you do.Quote:It takes 10 minutes to load an OS to a backup drive. You can even use Windows 2000 if you can't be bothered with activation for XP. One time deal, and ready for any system in the future. Then it takes all of 2 seconds to plug in the USB device each time to install drivers for any OS, or about the same time as loading a floppy disk.
So I am supposed to have all my customers with a RAID0 array have a second hard drive and a second licesed MS OS for the drive? IDIOTIC. How about they can just use a CD to load the disk controll driver... how's that? Instead of needing a BS in computer sciences, they just load the driver from a disk instead of a floppy. This is about MS dude, like the thread.
Total Microsfot fanboy. And by the wayQuote:Being an American citizen and an Australian resident, I couldn't care less where MS's $ goes, and AU does a much better job of keeping AU $ in AU. Do you realise that this forum is read by people in other countries who couldn't care less about your American agenda?
Just so this is clear, I'll try once more to explain it.
RAID is setup in a separate configuration before windows boots. Usually this is accessed by pressing cntl/I or cntl/s immediately after BIOS loads. It may also have settings in your BIOS (usually to turn it on/off). The disc controllers are also part of the motherboard's chipset. Only the drivers are needed by the operating system.
In order to load an image, the image must first be created. This requires that you have the operating system running with the proper RAID drivers in the first place. You also need to create an Acronis boot disc. The RAID drivers are indeed installed on the boot disc for every RAID version since Acronis True Image 9. Upon booting to the boot disc, it will see the array as a single disc. If it doesn't, the array is either corrupt or has not been properly configured/turned on.
Once you have both a boot disc and image file, you can safely reformat the OS and install the image to the same RAID array over and over. You can delete the array and recreate it, as long as you use the same type and the size isn't smaller than the image file. There's no more need to load the drivers separately after reformatting. You can even install to a different motherboard as long as it has the same chipset (ICH7, ICH8, etc.). Boot to the recovery cd, follow the directions, and load the backup image that you created when prompted, whether it be on CD/DVD, or on another hard drive via a network connection, or a USB device. As long as your RAID array is still setup correctly in BIOS, the entire hard drive will be restored the way it was when last backed up. Version 10 is also Vista compatible.
Your systems must be coming with the OS pre-installed, since you didn't have the RAID driver issue until you had to reformat. In this case, create the boot disc and RAID image right away, and you can always restore your system to the state it was in when you bought it without loading RAID drivers separately.
Now, if you build another system with identical hardware, but have not yet loaded the OS, simply create the RAID array, load the recovery disc, load the image when prompted, and presto! You have an identical system. So any nugget that thinks they know differently is wrong. I do this all the time.
You can give your customers a copy of the boot disc and a CD/DVD with the basic operating system, software, and drivers image with each system that you sell them. Its up to them to backup any data or programs that they install after that. However, if they want to spend $49.99USD, they can setup a backup schedule with either incremental or full system backup that can be used to reformat with everything updated. They can even password protect the backup. The only limitation is if you have more software installed than will fit on a DVD. However, by supplying OEM CDs with the software this can easily be remedied.
The reason I brought up a disc image in the first place was because of your delemna with your laptop after the review. Had you made a disc image, you wouldn't have had to reformat and fight with RAID drivers nor reactivate your OS. Try it, you'll like it.
Since our business only services South Australia, I see no reason to post a link to it here. However its easily found if you look at other posts by me on TG forums. It's part of my signature. For whatever reason, the mobile forum doesn't automatically include the same signature, and I can't be bothered with updating it. Our website needs updating, but very little of our business comes from the website so its not a priority. We're a custom computer shop, which means we build to each customer's needs. We carry a very small inventory, as this allows us to always be competitive with current pricing. About the only thing we don't do is main frames. We build notebooks, PCs, repairs, upgrades, deliver, setup, network small business and homes, etc.. We provide Linux, Unix, Linspire (Lindows), and MS support. Our business is not that big, and personalized service is our biggest selling point.
You claimed floppy disks were unreliable. That's the only reason I touched on the subject. They're not. I have kids in the USA and in AU that use floppys daily for transferring homework to and from school. The schools don't allow flash drives nor removable hard drives. Floppy disks are far from obsolete, regardless of what reviewers like to print.
Um.. for the record, all money values are "compared" against each other, including the US dollar. Its just that, a comparison of worth, dollar for dollar, yen for dollar, euro for dollar, etc.. Its called the exchange rate, so people can exchange currencies for whatever country they're in. Seeing as how I travel back and forth 3 times a year, I use it often. No other country in the world has their money "tied" to the US dollar. Life in Australia has been vedy vedy good to me. :-)
Quote:Um.. for the record, all money values are "compared" against each other, including the US dollar. Its just that, a comparison of worth, dollar for dollar, yen for dollar, euro for dollar, etc.. Its called the exchange rate, so people can exchange currencies for whatever country they're in. Seeing as how I travel back and forth 3 times a year, I use it often. No other country in the world has their money "tied" to the US dollar.
Your understanding of many things is cursory.
You understand HOW, but you do not understand WHY.
As of this posting the "values" of the currencies are:
1 AU$ can purchase .768935 US$
1 AU$ can purchase .599631 Euros
If you divide what the AU$ can purchase in US$ by what it can purchase in Euros, you have how many US$ the Euro can purchase.
1 Euro can Purchase 1.28235 US$.
A GBP is a Great British Pound
1 GBP = 1.89455 US$
1 GBP = 2.46386 AU$
Do the same calculation 1.89455 / 2.46386 = .7689357
How many US dollars can one Australian $ buy? Gee, it's the same number!
BECAUSE YOUR FREAKING CURRENCY IS VALUED TO OURS!Quote:No other country in the world has their money "tied" to the US dollar.
EVERY other currency in the world is valued to the US Dollar.
The "exchange rate" isn't just a number they pull out of a hat each day slick, it is how much of ANY currency can be EXCHANGED for a US DOLLAR!
LMAO @ " The "exchange rate" isn't just a number they pull out of a hat each day slick, it is how much of ANY currency can be EXCHANGED for a US DOLLAR!"
I guess that's just another reason American education is in the toilets these days. Many Americans seem to think the entire world is based on the good 'ole USA.
The exchange rate (or foreign exchange rate) between 2 currencies specifies how much one currency is worth in terms of the other. This applies to every currency in the world, not just the USA nor the USD.
There are 2 types, a fixed exchange rate and a floating exchange rate.
A fixed exchange rate is pegged to the USD. The ratio of a fixed exchange rate moves with the value of the USD. Some European countries and China have had a fixed exchange rate with the US since 1994.
However AU has a floating exchange rate, which is not pegged to the USD and changes constantly. The floating exchange rate is based upon many factors, such as supply and demand, the flow of funds between countries, and the rate of inflation. The value of the USD alone has very little effect on the AUD value.
Here's some irony for you. If China (since that's the most likely single country to do it) wiped the USA off the face of the earth, but kept their relations as is with AU, IF AU was able to still get all the resources that they had gotten from the USA from China and other countries at the same rate,... Au's economy would not be effected at all. However China's economy would collapse, since they just destroyed the economy that theirs is based upon. Beware if China ever goes back to a floating exchange rate ;-)
That is the book definition you just looked up.
It seems that everything you know is based off theory.
In the real world again.. you can trade ANY currency except the US Dollar because it is the benchmark.
Check ANY commodity in the civilized world and it is valued to the US Dollar. As long as your country doesn't need to buy anything... you're set.
Why would China attempt to destroy America? That is stupid talk. I have to stop talking to you now. You are the only person that can argue simple mathematic transitive properties with economic theorys. Since the numbers are too big for you, I will break it down into pictures.Quote:The RAID drivers are indeed installed on the boot disc for every RAID version since Acronis True Image 9. Upon booting to the boot disc, it will see the array as a single disc.
Here is the properly configured RAID array (Windows is installed and will boot, but this is to prove a point here):
Here you can see the selection screen for Acronis True Image Enterprise Server 9.1:
Here you can see where I have selected Acronis True Image Enterprise Server:
And here you can see where the FRAKIN' RAID array isn't found!
But hey, YOU DO IT ALL THE TIME!
Ah, and this is your XP Pro laptop? And here you can see that Enterprise Server 9.1 does not work with Windows XP. Doh!
OMG, you CAN'T be serious.
:arrow: So the mathematics were just a coincidence that it worked on the AU, EURO, UDD and GBP, and every other currency. Oh no, that's right, the world does this complex calculation with super computers every night to value every individual currency.
Now it's something else.
You're right man.
I've already tried the Acronis thing with every version of Acronis dude.
The ONLY way to do it is with a PE and an Acronis plug in, but whatever.
I know it is valued to the US Dollar, anyone that trades commodities does. You're living in this la la land of one paragraph answers to complex problems and you eat them up ignorantly. I never understood how some of these theories passed as reality until now.
You simply can not comprehend, even when it is boiled down to a transitive property of mathematics, and I think one of the problems is, you don't know what that is, simply put: A=B, B=C therfore A=C. The calculation WOULDN'T WORK if there were all these complex variables involved like trade defecit, GDP, unemployement, military might, etc. tallied daily by an army of economists and observers and reported to one central world order super computer for currency calculations each night.Quote:And you're right, the entire world bases their money value and economy on the mighty USA. Hilarious
Yes, I know I am. The world was thinking of basing everything off the Pacific Peso there, but then thought, "wait, since the AU$ has only been around 40 years, maybe we should go with something with a little more of a track record." Since you love to learn from web links, let me pose a question to you.
Why would the Reserve Bank of Australia show its official reserve asset tables in AU$ then US$? Table 2 expresses these figures in US dollar terms.
You lack the understanding that when commodoties are valued in US Dollars, you need US Dollars to buy them. Maybe with a little more education you will understand where the real power comes from.
America used economic theory in such a way to secure its position in world trade by getting the oil contract valued to the dollar. If your theory is right, maybe you can tell me something you can buy in the world market with Australian dollars?
Maybe you could tell me why when countries make loans to each other they are not valued in local currency? Would Australia load 1 Trillion AU$ to Iraq valued in Dinar? Heck NO. No one wants that crap. All Iraq has to do is print up more, devalue the currency and "pay back" the loan with cheap money. Iraq doesn't want AU$'s anyway because you can't buy anything with it! You would have to convert the AU$ to US$ before you could buy anything.
The funny thing is, you actually DON'T understand even when it is over-simplified to the point of ridiculousness. Ignorance is bliss.