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UPS or Power Conditioner for DAW

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July 10, 2005 12:02:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

With power outages being a rare occurrence in my area, I was only
looking to buy a power conditioner for my DAW setup. Then I came upon
this 1100VA UPS from Belkin which not only has the automatic voltage
regulation that I want but backup power as well for only $152.99:

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merc...

I plan to use it for both my PC and analog gear. Since power outage is
not an issue (I remember seeing only one power outage in the last two
years), my only concern with this unit is the quality of the power it
delivers. It being a standby type, I'm guessing that when the input
voltage is within its tolerance limits, it simply passes the input
through to the output and I'm getting whatever power quality it is from
the utility company. But what happens when the voltage fluctuates
outside of tolerance limits? Will this device continue to deliver a
clean sine wave suitable for analog gear during those times when its
voltage regulation kicks in?

What do you think of the quality/reliability of Belkin products? Would
you recommend this product for my application? If not, what would you
recommend?

BTW, for added protection, I'm thinking of putting my existing surge
protector (a NewPoint 3500 joules with RFI/EMI filtering) either before
or after the UPS. Is this a good idea? And should the surge protector
be placed before or after?

Thanks in advance for any help or opinions!

Michael L.
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 1:11:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 9 Jul 2005 20:02:12 -0700, "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote:

>With power outages being a rare occurrence in my area, I was only
>looking to buy a power conditioner for my DAW setup. Then I came upon
>this 1100VA UPS from Belkin which not only has the automatic voltage
>regulation that I want but backup power as well for only $152.99:
>
>http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merc...
>
>I plan to use it for both my PC and analog gear. Since power outage is
>not an issue (I remember seeing only one power outage in the last two
>years), my only concern with this unit is the quality of the power it
>delivers. It being a standby type, I'm guessing that when the input
>voltage is within its tolerance limits, it simply passes the input
>through to the output and I'm getting whatever power quality it is from
>the utility company. But what happens when the voltage fluctuates
>outside of tolerance limits? Will this device continue to deliver a
>clean sine wave suitable for analog gear during those times when its
>voltage regulation kicks in?
>
>What do you think of the quality/reliability of Belkin products? Would
>you recommend this product for my application? If not, what would you
>recommend?
>
>BTW, for added protection, I'm thinking of putting my existing surge
>protector (a NewPoint 3500 joules with RFI/EMI filtering) either before
>or after the UPS. Is this a good idea? And should the surge protector
>be placed before or after?
>
>Thanks in advance for any help or opinions!
>
>Michael L.
- I have 3 UPS devices which feed everything but monitors. They are
old but fine Best Power Fortress LI660, 660 VA that's about 450 W.
They are of line-interactive type ie. they are constantly online but
filter out any spikes and if the slitghtest variation in line voltage
occurs, they switch off the line for a second and then back,
completely uneventfully. I have seen not a problem in audio work or
whatever so far. If there's stormy weather, they switch quite
frequently. But at a close lightning risk, I switch everything off the
wall; that's the safest. Antenna lines and the telephone line (some 30
m air line) firstly.

This gives the gear, especially hard disks, added safety. At the wall
outlet, before the UPS and the other devices, I have a surge
protector, which already proved its usefullness when a lightning blew
2 fast blow 0,5 amps fuses inside the device at the telephone ie.
modem line (since these Fortresses haven't a modem line protection
built-in, the modern UPS devices mainly do).

Monitors are not connected to UPS because they are too demanding for a
660VA UPS and an UPS is not suitable for variable load unless it was
much more powerful (twice, even thrice) than the peak demand.

But choosing an UPS, I'd pick a well established brand and I'd
consider their literature first. There are three main types of UPS
devices; I'd pick a more costly, but much better, off-line type.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 2:22:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> forget trying to run everything through a ups, and entertaining some
> foolish fantasy that if your power drops out, everything will be on,
> and you can still squeak out a few extra minutes to capture that
> once-in-a-lifetime take that was happened at the exact moment of the
> dropout, and that your ups setup will be so robust and bulletproof
> that the client won't even know there was a drop out, and will walk
> out of your studio hours later in compete amazement and think you are
> Batman and Wonderwoman all rolled into one giant enchilada blah blah
> blah.




So how *do* I get rolled into Wonderwoman?

But seriously...

A few years ago there was a major failure in a sub-station here that
took out power to most of downtown and half the surrounding area for
hours. When everything went poof, our power stayed so stable that the
CD I was playing didn't even skip. The only way I even knew there was a
problem was that the ceiling lights went out.

It is possible to be heroically super-"powered" in the event of a
catastrophic failure. It just requires truckloads of money.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Related resources
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 3:52:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:22:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
<Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca> wrote:

><genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>and think you are
>> Batman and Wonderwoman all rolled into one giant enchilada blah blah
>> blah.
>
>So how *do* I get rolled into Wonderwoman?

Need really BIG enchilada.


>But seriously...
>
>A few years ago there was a major failure in a sub-station here that
>took out power to most of downtown and half the surrounding area for
>hours. When everything went poof, our power stayed so stable that the
>CD I was playing didn't even skip. The only way I even knew there was a
>problem was that the ceiling lights went out.
>
>It is possible to be heroically super-"powered" in the event of a
>catastrophic failure. It just requires truckloads of money.
>
>--
>"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
> - Lorin David Schultz
> in the control room
> making even bad news sound good
>
>(Remove spamblock to reply)
>
>
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 3:58:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>But choosing an UPS, I'd pick a well established brand and I'd
>consider their literature first. There are three main types of UPS
>devices; I'd pick a more costly, but much better, off-line type.
>
>Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

These folks sell expensive ones, and point out that most power
protectors, based on MOVs, have a limited life span. They of course,
will sell you a better one based on a different design:

http://www.surgex.com/library.html
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 3:58:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Willie K. Yee, MD <wkyee@bestweb.net> wrote:
>>But choosing an UPS, I'd pick a well established brand and I'd
>>consider their literature first. There are three main types of UPS
>>devices; I'd pick a more costly, but much better, off-line type.
>>
>>Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
>
>These folks sell expensive ones, and point out that most power
>protectors, based on MOVs, have a limited life span. They of course,
>will sell you a better one based on a different design:
>
> http://www.surgex.com/library.html

When these things came out a decade ago there was a big furor about them
here.

I'm still under NDA, but I'll just point out that _everything_ has a limited
lifespan and nothing lasts forever. The question is how well it works until
it does fail, and how it fails.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 6:16:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 9 Jul 2005 20:02:12 -0700, "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote:

> Then I came upon
>this 1100VA UPS from Belkin which not only has the automatic voltage
>regulation that I want but backup power as well for only $152.99:

1) IMHO avoid Belkin products, I have had poor experiences with a
number of different Belkin products.

2) That price is on the *LOW* side for a 'full' (there are many boost
only AVR) AVR 1100VA.



, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw dragonsclawJUNK@JUNKmindspring.com
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 11:36:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> If you have a problem, get something to solve it. If you don't have any
> problem, don't waste your money.

Unless you signed up to the audiophool nonsence in which case you'll spend
loads of money improving the bank balances of charlatans.

Graham
July 11, 2005 4:36:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks all! This has been a very enlightening thread.

I made AC voltage measurements with a multitester and found the voltage
varying from 118V to 119V. I got tired of holding the probes and
closely watching the meter, and gave up after 15 minutes, LOL! That
probably wasn't an accurate way to do it, and maybe more tests are
needed, but I think I can safely say it's unlikely that I have a line
voltage problem. So it turns out that I don't need an AVR after all!
:-)

All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just for the PC.
Thanks for the heads up and for saving me from wasting my money!

Michael L.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 11:43:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Willie K. Yee, MD wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:22:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
> <Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca> wrote:
>
> ><genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>and think you are
> >> Batman and Wonderwoman all rolled into one giant enchilada blah blah
> >> blah.
> >
> >So how *do* I get rolled into Wonderwoman?
>
> Need really BIG enchilada.
>


Oh, trust me, the moment Lynda Carter shows up in her tight little
Wonderwoman outfit, there is gonna be one BIG enchilada making its
presence known...
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 12:21:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:1121067389.673409.56360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just for the PC.
> Thanks for the heads up and for saving me from wasting my money!

Why bother with it at all? Save the money and use it to buy something that
is actually useful - like a microphone or some cables.

Stuart
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 2:24:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Stuart Welwood" <StuartRemoveThisWelwood@comcast.net> wrote
in
message news:3JadnV50Z_r5HU_fRVn-rQ@comcast.com
> "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote in message
>
news:1121067389.673409.56360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just
for
>> the PC. Thanks for the heads up and for saving me from
>> wasting my money!
>
> Why bother with it at all? Save the money and use it to
buy
> something that is actually useful - like a microphone or
some
> cables.

Agreed.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 6:50:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 00:36:29 -0700, "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net>
wrote:

>I made AC voltage measurements with a multitester and found the voltage
>varying from 118V to 119V. I got tired of holding the probes and
>closely watching the meter, and gave up after 15 minutes, LOL! That
>probably wasn't an accurate way to do it, and maybe more tests are
>needed, but I think I can safely say it's unlikely that I have a line
>voltage problem. So it turns out that I don't need an AVR after all!
>:
Consumer digital (and analogue) multi-meters won't do the job
measuring for dip and surges, only for slow changes due to overall
line/building/grid loading/variation.

I have a "Expanded-Scale" (105-125V) True RMS Simpson panel meter. You
can see multi cycle fluctuations that do not show on my Simpson "260"
analogue multimeter. Neiter wil show fractional/single cycle
disturbances. If you suspect this type of bad power (and it affects
your gear :^) )the rent a power disturbance analyser and run it 24/7
for at least a week.


, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw dragonsclawJUNK@JUNKmindspring.com
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 8:19:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1121067389.673409.56360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> mustang3@mediaone.net writes:

> I made AC voltage measurements with a multitester and found the voltage
> varying from 118V to 119V. I got tired of holding the probes and
> closely watching the meter, and gave up after 15 minutes, LOL!

What you need to do is watch it for a week or so. If you can convince
the power company that you actually have a problem, they can put a
recorder on you line which monitors the steady voltage as well as any
short term excursions up or down (surges or sags), and time tags them
so they can look for other equipment connected to the line that cycles
at those times.

> All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just for the PC.

Good thinkin'


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 1:00:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Better digital multimeters have a high low function. Let
the meter latch onto the lowest or highest value. Come back
later to discover what that most extreme voltage was. What is
more convincing to a utility? A number from a reliable meter.

Meanwhile, industry specs demand that a computer work just
fine even when 120 VAC mains voltage drops to 90 volts. In
reality, most computers will work sometimes as low as 85
volts. One owner of a Japanese TV once tested his TV. It kept
working down to something like 40 volts (doubts exist about
that number, but the concept is accurate).

Low voltage is not destructive to hardware. Low voltage
will only crash the computer - a threat to unsaved data.

Mike Rivers wrote:
> What you need to do is watch it for a week or so. If you can convince
> the power company that you actually have a problem, they can put a
> recorder on you line which monitors the steady voltage as well as any
> short term excursions up or down (surges or sags), and time tags them
> so they can look for other equipment connected to the line that cycles
> at those times.
July 12, 2005 1:55:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Stuart Welwood wrote:
> "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:1121067389.673409.56360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just for the PC.
> > Thanks for the heads up and for saving me from wasting my money!
>
> Why bother with it at all?

Because I can buy a cheap but decent UPS here:

http://www.upsforless.com

A small insurance to pay for protection against the
possibility--however remote it may be--of a big disaster.

Michael L.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 8:49:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

My computer shuts off following voltage glitches that affect nothing else in
my condo. These occur once or twice a month. I don't want to be in the
middle of something important when that happens.

It's simply good sense to have a UPS (strictly speaking, these are SPSs) on
your computer, especially when you're doing live recordings. You can a
decent one for under $100.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 11:44:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Stuart Welwood wrote:
>> "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote in message
>> news:1121067389.673409.56360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just for the PC.
>> > Thanks for the heads up and for saving me from wasting my money!
>>
>> Why bother with it at all?
>
>Because I can buy a cheap but decent UPS here:
>
>http://www.upsforless.com

It depends on what you mean by "decent."

>A small insurance to pay for protection against the
>possibility--however remote it may be--of a big disaster.

True, but don't let it keep you from making good backups.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 3:03:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:1121144101.851995.230430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Stuart Welwood wrote:
>> "Michael" <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote in message
>> news:1121067389.673409.56360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > All I'm going to buy then is a lower capacity UPS just for the PC.
>> > Thanks for the heads up and for saving me from wasting my money!
>>
>> Why bother with it at all?
>
> Because I can buy a cheap but decent UPS here:
>
> http://www.upsforless.com

Just because it's cheap doesn't mean that you should buy one. Lot's of
things are "cheap," but I'm still not going to buy one.

Power outages are not usually considered enough of a problem for most
businesses to warrant buying UPSs for their computers - so why do you need
one?

>
> A small insurance to pay for protection against the
> possibility--however remote it may be--of a big disaster.

What big disaster? Rebooting a computer? If the power goes down, then what
good will it do to have a computer running when nothing else is?

Stuart
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 5:40:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
>
> industry specs demand that a computer work just
> fine even when 120 VAC mains voltage drops to 90 volts. In
> reality, most computers will work sometimes as low as 85
> volts.


Which is why buying a "line interactive" UPS makes no sense. The
transients generated when they switch autoformer taps cause more
problems than they solve.




> Low voltage is not destructive to hardware.

....at least most hardware that we use. Motors don't like it at all.
July 13, 2005 12:11:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Stuart Welwood wrote:
> What big disaster? Rebooting a computer? If the power goes down, then what
> good will it do to have a computer running when nothing else is?

"Disaster" comes in many flavors. If I lose hours of unsaved work on a
sequence or mix, that's a disaster to me. If a power failure occurs
right in the middle of updating the file system (FAT or whatever), due
to the incomplete number of bytes written, file pointers can be screwed
up and you can lose files or even complete directories. While better
file systems (e.g., NTFS) may provide improved protection against data
corruption, they are not guaranteed 100%. I don't want to take any
chances with Murphy's Law.

Michael L.
July 13, 2005 12:52:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
>It depends on what you mean by "decent."

For my present needs, "decent" is a reliable standby unit from a
reputable manufacturer that will give me enough time to save my work
and shutdown gracefully. What do you think of the $44 APC BackUPS
450VA from upsforless.com?

http://www.upsforless.com/product56.html

Is 450VA enough capacity for a PC with two hard drives and a 21"
monitor or should I spring for the 650VA? The 450VA doesn't have an
AVR but that's fine. I only need it to exit gracefully. BTW, I've
heard good things about APC.

Thanks!

Michael L.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 1:29:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Things such a microwave ovens should reset due to shorter
glitches that do not affect computers. For example, a glitch
may not be from the utility. Many homes are wired with using
those 'push in the back' or stab lock type connections. Such
connections are safe and sufficient for things such as
incandescent lamps. Such connections play havoc with things
that require constant electricity such as computers.

It may not be AC power that is creating your problem. If
wires in that wall receptacle and all receptacles back to the
breaker box do not wrap the wire completely around a firmly
tightened screw (on side of receptacle), then power to the
computer can glitch.

Intel even specifies how long power can be removed and still
that computer must work uninterrupted. Many (inferior) clone
computers have power supplies bought only on price meaning the
power supply is missing this and other essential functions.
Just another reason why power glitches that do not adversely
affect the microwave often and clock radios would adversely
affect your computer.

The last thing that should be affected by a power glitch is
a computer. But this assumes a few things such as properly
wired wall receptacles (using screws and not push-in wire
connections) AND that the computer power supply was not one of
those 'missing function' types that sell for less than $70
retail (at higher profits to the manufacturer).

Meanwhile, a $100 UPS may be called computer grade. That
means voltage output when in battery backup mode can be
'dirty'. For example, this UPS outputs two 200 volt square
waves with up to a 270 volt spike between those square waves -
and calls this a 120 volt sine wave. Not a problem for
computers that are so robust. But problematic for some small
electric motors and some analog electronics. Computer grade
UPSes may not be acceptable for other electrical products.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
> My computer shuts off following voltage glitches that affect
> nothing else in my condo. These occur once or twice a month. I
> don't want to be in the middle of something important when that
> happens.
>
> It's simply good sense to have a UPS (strictly speaking, these
> are SPSs) on your computer, especially when you're doing live
> recordings. You can a decent one for under $100.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 3:28:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42D46D59.F56BDDA4@hotmail.com

> If a power loss corrupts the file, then why were you
still
> using Windows 9x/ME with the obsolete FAT filesystem?

Good question.

> That file corruption problem is one of so many solved by
HPFS (that
> obsoleted FAT).

HPFS dates back to OS/2 which saw the light of day in the
late 1980s.

> Then HPFS was obsoleted by NTFS.

NTFS dates back to NT 3.1 which became generally available
in 1993.

> File corruption due to power loss should not be a problem
if your
> hardware is standard and your filesystem is NTFS.

This turns out to be true in practice.

> Reasons for the UPS is to protect data not yet saved on
disk.

Usually it takes about 1 second or less for a NTFS-equipped
computer to catch up with any ongoing work.
July 19, 2005 6:28:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

WHAT I ENDED UP WITH...

I was only aiming for a UPS, but look what I found on eBay:

APC Smart-UPS 700 (line interactive UPS, 700VA) - $9.95 + $17 shipping.

ONEAC CY1115 Power Conditioner (passive isolation transformer, 1800VA)
- $10.50 + $8 shipping.

Two incredible bargains! Grabbed them both and won the auctions. It's
amazing what you can find on eBay. People selling things they don't
know anything about. They think it's a worthless POS. :-)

I have received the UPS and it tests perfect. After charging for 3
hours, the battery is now fully charged (100% indicated on LED's). And
the ONEAC is on its way. Hopefully it will be as good. It's a gamble,
I know. But for the price I don't mind losing. Now for the questions:

The ONEAC has only two outlets, so I'd like to expand it by plugging in
my Newpoint surge protector (ONEAC plugged into wall, Newpoint plugged
into ONEAC). However, ONEAC tech support doesn't advise this. They
say the electronics of the two might be incompatible and doing this
might degrade the performance or even damage the ONEAC. They suggest
to use an ordinary multiple outlet power strip without surge protector.
Is this true? I'd hate to waste the Newpoint and would like to use it
if possible.

On the other hand, they say it's alright to use my UPS with the ONEAC
(ONEAC plugged into wall, UPS plugged into ONEAC). But my UPS also has
a surge protector, EMI/RFI filtering, plus even more complex
electronics (AVR, monitoring/control via computer interface, etc.)
whereas the Newpoint only has surge protector and EMI/RFI filtering!
What gives? Makes me wonder if the tech support really know their
stuff.

I would really appreciate your second opinion and advice on this. Can
I use the Newpoint and/or UPS with the ONEAC?

Thanks in advance!

Michael L.
Anonymous
July 19, 2005 3:27:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael wrote:
>
> ONEAC CY1115 Power Conditioner (passive isolation transformer, 1800VA)
> - $10.50 + $8 shipping.

That was truly a steal.




> The ONEAC has only two outlets, so I'd like to expand it by plugging in
> my Newpoint surge protector (ONEAC plugged into wall, Newpoint plugged
> into ONEAC). However, ONEAC tech support doesn't advise this. They
> say the electronics of the two might be incompatible and doing this
> might degrade the performance or even damage the ONEAC. They suggest
> to use an ordinary multiple outlet power strip without surge protector.
> Is this true?

Pretty much. Assuming the Newpoint has the typical small gauge
inductors found in those type of units, it will have the effect of
increasing the source impedance of the powerline as seen by your
equipment. No, it won't damage the Oneac.





> On the other hand, they say it's alright to use my UPS with the ONEAC
> (ONEAC plugged into wall, UPS plugged into ONEAC). But my UPS also has
> a surge protector, EMI/RFI filtering, plus even more complex
> electronics (AVR, monitoring/control via computer interface, etc.)

Put the Oneac between the UPS and your equipment. If you put a 'scope
on the output of your UPS while it's running on battery you'll
understand why I recommend this arrangement.
Anonymous
July 19, 2005 7:15:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael wrote:

> WHAT I ENDED UP WITH...
>
> I was only aiming for a UPS, but look what I found on eBay:
>
> APC Smart-UPS 700 (line interactive UPS, 700VA) - $9.95 + $17 shipping.
>
> ONEAC CY1115 Power Conditioner (passive isolation transformer, 1800VA)
> - $10.50 + $8 shipping.
>

>
> Two incredible bargains! Grabbed them both and won the auctions. It's
> amazing what you can find on eBay. People selling things they don't
> know anything about. They think it's a worthless POS. :-)
>
> I have received the UPS and it tests perfect. After charging for 3
> hours, the battery is now fully charged (100% indicated on LED's). And
> the ONEAC is on its way. Hopefully it will be as good. It's a gamble,
> I know. But for the price I don't mind losing. Now for the questions:
>
> The ONEAC has only two outlets, so I'd like to expand it by plugging in
> my Newpoint surge protector (ONEAC plugged into wall, Newpoint plugged
> into ONEAC). However, ONEAC tech support doesn't advise this. They
> say the electronics of the two might be incompatible and doing this
> might degrade the performance or even damage the ONEAC. They suggest
> to use an ordinary multiple outlet power strip without surge protector.
> Is this true? I'd hate to waste the Newpoint and would like to use it
> if possible.
>
> On the other hand, they say it's alright to use my UPS with the ONEAC
> (ONEAC plugged into wall, UPS plugged into ONEAC). But my UPS also has
> a surge protector, EMI/RFI filtering, plus even more complex
> electronics (AVR, monitoring/control via computer interface, etc.)
> whereas the Newpoint only has surge protector and EMI/RFI filtering!
> What gives? Makes me wonder if the tech support really know their
> stuff.
>
> I would really appreciate your second opinion and advice on this. Can
> I use the Newpoint and/or UPS with the ONEAC?

Stacking power conditioners and/or UPS units is something to be done
with caution and a couple of fire extinguishers handy. I don't really
understand
the physics of it myself, but IIRC, some combinations setup destructive
resonance's in the transformers, which really blow your power transmission
efficiencies down, and the waste heat generated can sometimes let the
magic smoke out. It's been years since I've seen it done, and was with
much higher quality units than oneac's.

--Dale
Anonymous
July 19, 2005 7:15:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dale Farmer wrote:
>
> Stacking power conditioners and/or UPS units is something to be done
> with caution and a couple of fire extinguishers handy. I don't really
> understand the physics of it myself, but IIRC, some combinations setup
> destructive resonance's in the transformers, which really blow your
> power transmission efficiencies down

I'm guessing this was a ferroresonant design.
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 11:04:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Your original post was for a power conditioner. So instead
you bought a UPS. Sounds like a computer grade UPS. If this
one is similar, well, we look at the output of this one when
in battery backup mode. A 120 volt sine wave is two 200 volt
square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between the
square waves. Yes this is a modified sine wave output.
However this output can also damage even some small electric
motors.

Yes the tech support is correct. Incompatible electronics
could create problems. Why? You wanted a power conditioner.
Instead you bought a battery backup that does not even do the
power conditioning (I thought you originally wanted).

Michael wrote:
> WHAT I ENDED UP WITH...
>
> I was only aiming for a UPS, but look what I found on eBay:
>
> APC Smart-UPS 700 (line interactive UPS, 700VA) - $9.95 + $17 shipping.
>
> ONEAC CY1115 Power Conditioner (passive isolation transformer, 1800VA)
> - $10.50 + $8 shipping.
>
> Two incredible bargains! Grabbed them both and won the auctions. It's
> amazing what you can find on eBay. People selling things they don't
> know anything about. They think it's a worthless POS. :-)
>
> I have received the UPS and it tests perfect. After charging for 3
> hours, the battery is now fully charged (100% indicated on LED's). And
> the ONEAC is on its way. Hopefully it will be as good. It's a gamble,
> I know. But for the price I don't mind losing. Now for the questions:
>
> The ONEAC has only two outlets, so I'd like to expand it by plugging in
> my Newpoint surge protector (ONEAC plugged into wall, Newpoint plugged
> into ONEAC). However, ONEAC tech support doesn't advise this. They
> say the electronics of the two might be incompatible and doing this
> might degrade the performance or even damage the ONEAC. They suggest
> to use an ordinary multiple outlet power strip without surge protector.
> Is this true? I'd hate to waste the Newpoint and would like to use it
> if possible.
>
> On the other hand, they say it's alright to use my UPS with the ONEAC
> (ONEAC plugged into wall, UPS plugged into ONEAC). But my UPS also has
> a surge protector, EMI/RFI filtering, plus even more complex
> electronics (AVR, monitoring/control via computer interface, etc.)
> whereas the Newpoint only has surge protector and EMI/RFI filtering!
> What gives? Makes me wonder if the tech support really know their
> stuff.
>
> I would really appreciate your second opinion and advice on this. Can
> I use the Newpoint and/or UPS with the ONEAC?
>
> Thanks in advance!
July 22, 2005 6:07:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
> ... <Snip> ...
> You wanted a power conditioner.
> Instead you bought a battery backup that does not even do the
> power conditioning (I thought you originally wanted).


Read my post again. I bought a UPS (Smart-UPS 700) AND a power
conditioner (ONEAC CY1115). :-)

Michael L.


> Michael wrote:
> > WHAT I ENDED UP WITH...
> >
> > I was only aiming for a UPS, but look what I found on eBay:
> >
> > APC Smart-UPS 700 (line interactive UPS, 700VA) - $9.95 + $17 shipping.
> >
> > ONEAC CY1115 Power Conditioner (passive isolation transformer, 1800VA)
> > - $10.50 + $8 shipping.
> >
> > Two incredible bargains! Grabbed them *both* and won the auctions.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 12:35:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Read my post again. You originally wanted a power
conditioner. The UPS, in battery backup mode, is a power
'deconditioner'. The manufacturers own numbers says same.
What is the THD? When not in battery backup mode, UPS does
about as much power conditioning as an extension cord. You
wanted a power conditioner. Then you did not want the
Smart-UPS 700.

The manufacturer recommended to not use both together.
Why? The UPS is a power deconditioner - can make AC
electricity 'dirtier'. So dirty that the two used together
might even cause one to be damaged. If you wanted a power
conditioner and a UPS creates dirtier power, then why is the
UPS a solution?

Michael wrote:
> Read my post again. I bought a UPS (Smart-UPS 700) AND a power
> conditioner (ONEAC CY1115). :-)
>
> Michael L.
July 23, 2005 5:15:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
> Read my post again. You originally wanted a power
> conditioner.

Originally, yes. But after seeing the replies of Scott Dorsey in this
thread, asking me if I really have line voltage or RFI problems, I
realized that I had not really seen any manifestations of such problems
in my setup and I was just being too anal about it. So I later decided
that all I really needed was a UPS--and only for backup power to allow
me to exit and shutdown gracefully, not to continue working. Thus, it
did not have to be a clean sine wave UPS. (That's how this thread
developed, if you'd like to review it.)

So I bought the APC Smart-UPS 700 on eBay, not so much for its features
but for the price. It turned out to be quite good actually. APC is a
reputable manufacturer and the Smart-UPS series is one of their higher
end models. A look at the specs from the manual reveals the following:

On-battery frequency : 50 or 60 Hz +- 0.1 Hz
On-battery waveshape : Low distortion sine wave
Please see:
http://sturgeon.apcc.com/techref.nsf/partnum/990-7042A/$FILE/D7042A2.pdf

For $9.95 + $17 shipping, it was a bargain!

Then I saw another great deal on eBay, the ONEAC CY1115 power
conditioner--12 Amp isolation transformer for $10.50 + $8 shipping.
Too good a deal to pass up! I bought it even though I had already
decided I needed only a UPS. Well, I thought, who knows what the
future holds, the good power in my area may not last forever.

Then came the question of how to connect them all together, including
my existing Newpoint surge protector. Here's what I planned to do:

CY1115 to wall outlet, Smart-UPS to outlet #1 of CY1115, PC and monitor
to outlets of Smart-UPS.
Newpoint surge protector to CY1115 outlet #2, various analog audio gear
to outlets of Newpoint surge protector.

Upon inquiring with ONEAC if this was alright, their tech support lady
told me that the connection of Newpoint surge protector to CY1115 is
not good and could possibly cause damage. However, she said the
connection of UPS to CY1115 is fine. That's when I wondered why, which
led to my last question in this thread (see my July 19 posting).

> The UPS, in battery backup mode, is a power
> 'deconditioner'. The manufacturers own numbers says same.
> What is the THD? When not in battery backup mode, UPS does
> about as much power conditioning as an extension cord.

The specs don't seem to mention THD or maybe I just don't know how to
interpret it (I'm not an EE). However, to me, the specs seem to
declare better performance than what you depict.

> The manufacturer recommended to not use both together.
> Why? The UPS is a power deconditioner - can make AC
> electricity 'dirtier'. So dirty that the two used together
> might even cause one to be damaged.

No, it was only the Newpoint surge protector used with the CY1115 that
the tech support advised against. The UPS with the CY1115 is fine, she
said. So please explain to me why. Is it because using a surge
protector with a power conditioner is unsafe? If that's the reason,
well, the UPS has a built-in surge protector, so what's the difference?
Why should the UPS be fine?

Thanks,

Michael L.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:17:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael <mustang3@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>> The UPS, in battery backup mode, is a power
>> 'deconditioner'. The manufacturers own numbers says same.
>> What is the THD? When not in battery backup mode, UPS does
>> about as much power conditioning as an extension cord.
>
>The specs don't seem to mention THD or maybe I just don't know how to
>interpret it (I'm not an EE). However, to me, the specs seem to
>declare better performance than what you depict.

If the specs don't mention THD, it's usually very bad. Typical cheapie
"modified sine wave" UPS systems are around 20%. Not acceptable for
powering audio gear. Just fine for a computer.

Since the cheapies are all standby units, the high distortion is only
an issue when they are running off inverter. And HOPEFULLY you aren't
going to be doing anything when it's running off inverter other than
closing out files and shutting down.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:40:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael wrote:
>
> it was only the Newpoint surge protector used with the CY1115 that
> the tech support advised against. The UPS with the CY1115 is fine, she
> said. So please explain to me why. Is it because using a surge
> protector with a power conditioner is unsafe?


Use the Oneac on the output of the UPS, not the input. That will
isolate your equipment from most of the noise created by the UPS inverter.




> the UPS has a built-in surge protector, so what's the difference?

The UPS has some MOVs and some cheesy RFI filtering, that's all. Real
power conditioning for 50/60 Hz lines requires tens of pounds of iron
and copper. The Oneac has that.
!