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Millennia Media HV-3c...why?

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Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 10, 2005 4:14:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

i saw in a recent issue of Recording magazine, that the HV-3b preamp
has been updated to the HV-3c...something about servoless stuff and a
better power supply.

what was "wrong" with the HV-3b? That thing had insane specs and an
unbeatable reputation for tranparency.

I hope this doesn't confuse the lineage, where people will start saying
"the vintage HV-3's sound better, much better sound-staging and
openness... the new ones sound brittle".

I'm not saying this is the situation. I just kind of thought they
invented the Coca-cola recipe for preamps, and now they're trying to
improve it with "new Coke".

to provide some perspective, people have often remarked that the
"original" Great River preamps sound more transparent than the newer
ones.

so i'm hoping someone can clarify this whole "c" thing.

why? why? why?...that's all i can think right now.

More about : millennia media

Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 10, 2005 1:25:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1120979658.432076.170140@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> genericaudioperson@hotmail.com writes:

> i saw in a recent issue of Recording magazine, that the HV-3b preamp
> has been updated to the HV-3c...something about servoless stuff and a
> better power supply.
>
> what was "wrong" with the HV-3b? That thing had insane specs and an
> unbeatable reputation for tranparency.

Nothing's wrong with it, but that's not a reason for a manufacturer
not to make improvements if he sees (and hears) areas which could be
improved by applying technology that's available today at the
product's target price point.

One difference with the new model is that it's now a one rack space
unit rather than two rack spaces. That could be important when putting
together a portable rig. The trick is to do this without compromising
performance. A more efficient power supply than was available years
ago can run cooler, thus requiring less space to circulate air.
Transformer manufacturers have made some improvements in design to
more tightly control their radiated hum field. I recall John telling
me that the placement of the power transformer in the previous model
was critical to avoid inducing hum in one or the other channel. A
newer transformer design could allow him to package it differently
without compromising the quiescent noise. I don't know about the
"servoless stuff," but there are always people making improvements in
electronics. No reason not to take advantage of them if you're doing a
re-design. I haven't checked prices, but the new model might even be
cheaper than the previous one.

People in this field seem to have the idea that when a manufacturer
comes out with an improved model, his previous model immediately is
perceived as having faults. That's sometimes the case in cheap,
quick-to-market price-point designs - they know what the faults and
compromises are, and they chose their poisons so as to poison the
fewest number of users. But Millenia Media isn't a company like that.
While the new model might have better specs in some areas than the
previous one, that's no indication that the previous model has always
been broken and now it can be fixed by replacing it.

> I hope this doesn't confuse the lineage, where people will start saying
> "the vintage HV-3's sound better, much better sound-staging and
> openness... the new ones sound brittle".

Oh, I'm sure some will. As well, someone is bound to say "the old one
sounded great, but the new one sounds so much smoother and warmer,
almost like a tube preamp."

> to provide some perspective, people have often remarked that the
> "original" Great River preamps sound more transparent than the newer
> ones.

This is true, and it was designed that way. The NV series (the new
model) was designed to have a "sound" while the original model was
designed to be transparent. At the moment, the NV is the hot seller,
so that's what's being built. Great River is a tiny shop and they can
only stock so many parts and build so many units at a time. It seems
to me that I've heard (not from Dan Kennedy) that at the moment they
aren't building MP-2s, just MP2-NV and MP1-NV models as well as the
equalizers. It's possible that the MP2 is going through some
re-engineering on the bench while the MP2-NV is making money to keep
the lights on and gas in the boat. We'll see.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 10, 2005 1:25:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"
>
>> to provide some perspective, people have often remarked that the
>> "original" Great River preamps sound more transparent than the newer
>> ones.
>
>This is true, and it was designed that way. The NV series (the new
>model) was designed to have a "sound" while the original model was
>designed to be transparent. At the moment, the NV is the hot seller,
>so that's what's being built. Great River is a tiny shop and they can
>only stock so many parts and build so many units at a time. It seems
>to me that I've heard (not from Dan Kennedy) that at the moment they
>aren't building MP-2s, just MP2-NV and MP1-NV models as well as the
>equalizers. It's possible that the MP2 is going through some
>re-engineering on the bench while the MP2-NV is making money to keep
>the lights on and gas in the boat. We'll see.

The Great River MP-2MH is currently a special order item and priced
the same as the MP-2NV.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com
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Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 10, 2005 4:14:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120979658.432076.170140@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>i saw in a recent issue of Recording magazine, that the HV-3b preamp
> has been updated to the HV-3c...something about servoless stuff and a
> better power supply.
>
> what was "wrong" with the HV-3b? That thing had insane specs and an
> unbeatable reputation for tranparency.
>
> I hope this doesn't confuse the lineage, where people will start saying
> "the vintage HV-3's sound better, much better sound-staging and
> openness... the new ones sound brittle".
>
> I'm not saying this is the situation. I just kind of thought they
> invented the Coca-cola recipe for preamps, and now they're trying to
> improve it with "new Coke".
>
> to provide some perspective, people have often remarked that the
> "original" Great River preamps sound more transparent than the newer
> ones.
>
> so i'm hoping someone can clarify this whole "c" thing.
>
> why? why? why?...that's all i can think right now.


There was nothing "wrong" with the HV-3B, if you care to check you'll find
that the HV-3C is just a recently-updated version of the HV-3B two channel
mic preamp but with improved mechanical design and cosmetics and a 36 step
gain control now as standard. Hardly reinventing Coca Cola, more like
making an already excellent mic.pre even better.


Mike
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 10, 2005 8:12:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Two reasons to redesign things that already work fine:

1) Components needed for the original design are no longer available, or new
components come along with improved specs;

2) You figure out a way to improve the manufacturability, thus cutting your
costs.

According to Dan Kennedy, the latter is what's up with the original Great
River preamp.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 11, 2005 12:59:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>i saw in a recent issue of Recording magazine, that the HV-3b preamp
>has been updated to the HV-3c...something about servoless stuff and a
>better power supply.

And it's half the size.

>what was "wrong" with the HV-3b? That thing had insane specs and an
>unbeatable reputation for tranparency.

It took up too many rack spaces.

>I hope this doesn't confuse the lineage, where people will start saying
>"the vintage HV-3's sound better, much better sound-staging and
>openness... the new ones sound brittle".
>
>I'm not saying this is the situation. I just kind of thought they
>invented the Coca-cola recipe for preamps, and now they're trying to
>improve it with "new Coke".

They made it smaller.

>to provide some perspective, people have often remarked that the
>"original" Great River preamps sound more transparent than the newer
>ones.

They are, because they are designed to be. They still make the original
model, as well as the newer NV one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 11, 2005 1:50:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> And it's half the size.

Internally maybe? The one's I have had are both 1 rackspace units,
it's the HV3D's that are 2 rackspaces, but they have 8 channels in
them. I didn't read the article about the "new" HV3C's, but in the
HV3C's I owned the difference was they have A/D converters and have the
36 stepped gain pot option as a standard feature, plus a couple of
other features.

My older HV3C's have Apogee 20 bit A/D's with lightpipe, spdif
and aes out, an internal oscillator, and Apogee's UV22 dithering (with
2 selectable levels) for 16 bit operation; A/D's on the new ones will
have 24 bit converters with POW-R dithering. I believe John Lagrou is
part of the "consortium" that developed POW-R. If you wanted to get
Apogee to work on an older HV3C to get an option added (like a D/A) you
used to have to send the unit to Millenia and they to Apogee, things
were as I understood it less than optimal, hopefully things will be
better with the new units.

BTW, there are even older HV3b units floating around that had the
volume pot soldered to the board, I think they floated that later on as
one of the typical improvements manufacturers make to a product in
response to customer feedback.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 12, 2005 4:31:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Not trying to hijack thread. I have a HV-3D, Focusrite-octopre, MP-20,
M610. I am looking for a 4-8 channel pre that might be a good alternative
to compliment these. Would use for general studio work. Got any suggestion
at some I might want to look at?
Max Arwood

"WillStG" <willstg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1121100656.849109.306260@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > And it's half the size.
>
> Internally maybe? The one's I have had are both 1 rackspace units,
> it's the HV3D's that are 2 rackspaces, but they have 8 channels in
> them. I didn't read the article about the "new" HV3C's, but in the
> HV3C's I owned the difference was they have A/D converters and have the
> 36 stepped gain pot option as a standard feature, plus a couple of
> other features.
>
> My older HV3C's have Apogee 20 bit A/D's with lightpipe, spdif
> and aes out, an internal oscillator, and Apogee's UV22 dithering (with
> 2 selectable levels) for 16 bit operation; A/D's on the new ones will
> have 24 bit converters with POW-R dithering. I believe John Lagrou is
> part of the "consortium" that developed POW-R. If you wanted to get
> Apogee to work on an older HV3C to get an option added (like a D/A) you
> used to have to send the unit to Millenia and they to Apogee, things
> were as I understood it less than optimal, hopefully things will be
> better with the new units.
>
> BTW, there are even older HV3b units floating around that had the
> volume pot soldered to the board, I think they floated that later on as
> one of the typical improvements manufacturers make to a product in
> response to customer feedback.
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music and TV Audio Guy
> Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 12, 2005 11:57:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Max Arwood wrote:
> Not trying to hijack thread. I have a HV-3D, Focusrite-octopre, MP-20,
> M610. I am looking for a 4-8 channel pre that might be a good alternative
> to compliment these. Would use for general studio work. Got any suggestion
> at some I might want to look at?
> Max Arwood

I would think you might like some micpres with big, fat
transformers in them, to add the metal that is missing from your diet.
API's, maybe the Hardy Jensen Twin 990's, racked Neves, or maybe the
Telefunken/Tab V672's (discreet/class A/huge Haufe transformers) which
my brother and I have racked up and are relatively inexpensive. You can
email me if you're interested <g>... willstg@aol.comnospam (remove
nospam). The tube versions like the V72/76 are a bit mushier in the
low end actually.

Or you might find an old Soundtracs MRX console and use the
micepres direct out, it's a boatanchor but you could get 24 channels of
nicely colored micpres *really* cheap that way.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio Fox New M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 13, 2005 2:19:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks Will, I have been thinking about some type of "Neve" sounding pre for
a while. I'm not that famillier with the "Sound" of the API's. I know that
they are used quite alot. Which API's do you like?
Max Arwood

"WillStG" <willstg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1121180273.367686.179220@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Max Arwood wrote:
> > Not trying to hijack thread. I have a HV-3D, Focusrite-octopre, MP-20,
> > M610. I am looking for a 4-8 channel pre that might be a good
alternative
> > to compliment these. Would use for general studio work. Got any
suggestion
> > at some I might want to look at?
> > Max Arwood
>
> I would think you might like some micpres with big, fat
> transformers in them, to add the metal that is missing from your diet.
> API's, maybe the Hardy Jensen Twin 990's, racked Neves, or maybe the
> Telefunken/Tab V672's (discreet/class A/huge Haufe transformers) which
> my brother and I have racked up and are relatively inexpensive. You can
> email me if you're interested <g>... willstg@aol.comnospam (remove
> nospam). The tube versions like the V72/76 are a bit mushier in the
> low end actually.
>
> Or you might find an old Soundtracs MRX console and use the
> micepres direct out, it's a boatanchor but you could get 24 channels of
> nicely colored micpres *really* cheap that way.
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music and TV Audio Guy
> Staff Audio Fox New M-AES
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 13, 2005 10:05:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Max Arwood wrote:
> Thanks Will, I have been thinking about some type of "Neve" sounding pre for
> a while. I'm not that famillier with the "Sound" of the API's. I know that
> they are used quite alot. Which API's do you like?

I'm really a Telefunken and Neve guy, mostly because that's what I
have and that's what places I have worked at have had available. I
haven't used API's much but I mentioned them because they are
ubiquitous and mostly use jensen transformers, the point being that the
color you get with a transformer design is sometimes really what you
need in a recording. Even when you're not recording Rock or Country;
John La Grou has I believe used transformered micpres like Neve 1272s,
1073s, and Telefunken V-76's in sessions, once Tom Lazarus was not able
to get a french horn right until I pulled out a jensen transformered
Boulder micpre, that Boulder design lives on as the John Hardy Twin
Servo 990.

The Boulder/Twin Servo sounds milky and smooth though, the Haufe
transfomers in the Telefunken/Tab/Sitral pre's (which are friggin'
HUGE!) sound a lot more Beatle-y to me. Much has been made of the
euphonic nature of the harmonic overtones in tube designs, and it's
great for marketing of course. But if you are searching for "vintage
tone" you might find it in the sound of "iron"; there is something
about overshoot, ringing and phase shift that can be quite musical. <g>

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
July 14, 2005 4:55:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1121259937.928145.243840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
WillStG <willstg@aol.com> wrote:

> Tom Lazarus was not able
> to get a french horn right until I pulled out a jensen transformered
> Boulder micpre, that Boulder design lives on as the John Hardy Twin
> Servo 990.
>
> The Boulder/Twin Servo sounds milky and smooth though, the Haufe
> transfomers in the Telefunken/Tab/Sitral pre's (which are friggin'
> HUGE!) sound a lot more Beatle-y to me.



Hey Will, who's got the Boulder?





David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

CelebrationSound@aol.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 14, 2005 7:50:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks for all the info. One pre I hope to get later this year is the X73i.
Nice price, all new parts, no worry about caps resistors etc. I will have
to look into the Hardy Twin
Servo 990, and that Telefunken you mentioned earlier. I also want to say
that I was totally amazed at the work you did on the RAP CD. Thanks for
taking the time to contribute.
Max Arwood

"WillStG" <willstg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1121259937.928145.243840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Max Arwood wrote:
> > Thanks Will, I have been thinking about some type of "Neve" sounding pre
for
> > a while. I'm not that famillier with the "Sound" of the API's. I know
that
> > they are used quite alot. Which API's do you like?
>
> I'm really a Telefunken and Neve guy, mostly because that's what I
> have and that's what places I have worked at have had available. I
> haven't used API's much but I mentioned them because they are
> ubiquitous and mostly use jensen transformers, the point being that the
> color you get with a transformer design is sometimes really what you
> need in a recording. Even when you're not recording Rock or Country;
> John La Grou has I believe used transformered micpres like Neve 1272s,
> 1073s, and Telefunken V-76's in sessions, once Tom Lazarus was not able
> to get a french horn right until I pulled out a jensen transformered
> Boulder micpre, that Boulder design lives on as the John Hardy Twin
> Servo 990.
>
> The Boulder/Twin Servo sounds milky and smooth though, the Haufe
> transfomers in the Telefunken/Tab/Sitral pre's (which are friggin'
> HUGE!) sound a lot more Beatle-y to me. Much has been made of the
> euphonic nature of the harmonic overtones in tube designs, and it's
> great for marketing of course. But if you are searching for "vintage
> tone" you might find it in the sound of "iron"; there is something
> about overshoot, ringing and phase shift that can be quite musical. <g>
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music and TV Audio Guy
> Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 14, 2005 3:05:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

david wrote:
> In article <1121259937.928145.243840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> WillStG <willstg@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom Lazarus was not able
> > to get a french horn right until I pulled out a jensen transformered
> > Boulder micpre, that Boulder design lives on as the John Hardy Twin
> > Servo 990.
> >
> > The Boulder/Twin Servo sounds milky and smooth though, the Haufe
> > transfomers in the Telefunken/Tab/Sitral pre's (which are friggin'
> > HUGE!) sound a lot more Beatle-y to me.
>
>
>
> Hey Will, who's got the Boulder?

Manhattan Center Studios. It sat kinda dusty on a shelf somewhere
for a while until I dusted it off.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
!