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DAT to CD transfer low level signal

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Anonymous
July 17, 2005 3:20:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2. Why is this
level so low? If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem. Normally I
can't turn it above 1 out of 10 for really load volume.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
GLenn
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 3:32:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I used the analog output from DAT (my portable Tascam DA-P1 to M-Audio
audiophile 192 audio card. What kind of cable should i use for S/PDIF?

Thanks,
Glenn
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 10:15:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"gmcenroe" wrote ...
>I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
> recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
> amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2.

What does "0.1" and "2" mean? On what scale? Where do these
numbers come from , specifically?

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/about/images/recording....
According to this screen shot, Audacity uses a standard dB
scale of -60 (or whatever, unlabeled?) up to 0dB at full-scale.
Dunno how "0.1" and "2" relate to the dB scale?

> Why is this level so low?

We don't know until we understand how you are measuring
the recording and playback levels in Audacity?

> If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
> fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem.

You need to figure out the level problems in Audacity
before worrying about making CDs.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 10:30:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"gmcenroe" <g.mcenroe@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1121581218.503155.3900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
> recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
> amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2. Why is this
> level so low? If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
> fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem. Normally I
> can't turn it above 1 out of 10 for really load volume.

How did you transfer the signal from the Panasonic to the computer? Via a
digital transfer (S/PDIF or AES)? What soundcard/audio interface are you
using?

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 11:00:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"gmcenroe" <g.mcenroe@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1121581969.427116.145080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
> I used the analog output from DAT (my portable Tascam
DA-P1 to
> M-Audio audiophile 192 audio card. What kind of cable
should i
> use for S/PDIF?

Just about anything short with appropriate connectors.
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 12:50:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1121581218.503155.3900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
gmcenroe <g.mcenroe@comcast.net> wrote:
>I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
>recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
>amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2. Why is this
>level so low? If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
>fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem. Normally I
>can't turn it above 1 out of 10 for really load volume.
>
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.

So, if the peaks are very low, normalize it.

I don't know what the "0.1" and "2" numbers are referring to... what value
is full scale and is this a linear or log scale?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 1:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gmcenroe wrote:

> I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
> recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
> amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2. Why is this
> level so low? If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
> fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem. Normally I
> can't turn it above 1 out of 10 for really load volume.

A couple of comments.

Computer sound cards don't normally have calibrated signal levels.

Any software that uses 1-10 for the controls should be shot. Pro audio uses
decibels. 1-10 type setttings can mean anything or even nothing at all.

Graham
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 3:13:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thank you all for your suggestions. This is the first time I have used
audacity so I am pretty new at this. I don't know what the vertical
scale is on the waveform pattern except that it reads 0 to 2 and the
scale appears to be a linear measurement of the amplitude of the
waveform. One thing I found is that if I move the gain slider control
all the way to the right I can increase the gan from 0 to 24db. I tried
this and then saved file to wav file and the volume was much higher
more like a normal CD. It still bothers me that the signal looks so
small on the waveform pattern though. I think revording at -18dB on the
SV-3800 should be OK. The screen shot indicated above shows similar
trace to what I get, the blue waveform in my recording maxes out at
about 0.1, the scale shown from -1 to +1 in this screenshot. Maybe this
is what is normally supposed to look like? Their waveform is also
pretty small in amplitude.
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 3:27:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1121581969.427116.145080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> g.mcenroe@comcast.net writes:

> I used the analog output from DAT (my portable Tascam DA-P1 to M-Audio
> audiophile 192 audio card. What kind of cable should i use for S/PDIF?

Since you recorded an analog output to an analog input, you had
complete control over the record level. Try it again and this time
adjust the input level of the recording software while watching the
on-screen level meter.

You may have to hunt around to find the "record level" control, but
it's bound to be there someplace.

You can use an RCA-RCA cable to make a digital transfer, but when
doing so, you have no control over the record level. It may still
"look" low on your DAW waveform display.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 3:52:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:20:18 -0400, gmcenroe wrote
(in article <1121581218.503155.3900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):

> I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
> recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
> amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2. Why is this
> level so low? If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
> fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem. Normally I
> can't turn it above 1 out of 10 for really load volume.
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> GLenn
>

Um, why bother with the DAT? Why not record directly to the computer?

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 3:52:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ty Ford" <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J7udnfguYcVU40ffRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:20:18 -0400, gmcenroe wrote
> (in article <1121581218.503155.3900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
>> recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
>> amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2. Why is
>> this
>> level so low? If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
>> fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem. Normally I
>> can't turn it above 1 out of 10 for really load volume.
>>
>> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> GLenn
>>
>
> Um, why bother with the DAT? Why not record directly to the computer?

He said that the turntable/preamp (receiver) was too far away
from his computer. Note that he is using a second DAT machine
to feed the computer.

The problem seems to be in the capture from the second DAT
into the computer (via Audacity). Specifically, we are getting
ambiguous and incomplete info about setting record levels and
determining playback (recorded) levels.
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 5:44:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks for all your help. I al rerecording the LP and setting the
record level higher so now it is mostly at -3dB at max, and will
compare the transfered file to audacity.
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 5:53:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"gmcenroe" wrote ...
> Thanks for all your help. I al rerecording the LP and setting the
> record level higher so now it is mostly at -3dB at max, and will
> compare the transfered file to audacity.

You are recording (and setting reccord levels) at TWO
different points in your work-flow. When you talk about
setting record levels, you need to specify which device
(DAT recorder or computer/Audacity) you are talking
about.

If you are saying that you are going to increase the record
levels on your DAT machine, I think you are looking in the
*wrong place* for the solution. You should be looking at
the record level on the computer/Audacity. At least that
is what it sounds like from your description of the
symptoms as you have written here.
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 6:29:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:

> "gmcenroe" wrote ...
> >I recorded an LP on a Panasonic SV3800 and -18dB level. Then I
> > recoreded this material to Audacity on my computer. The signal
> > amplitude on the record is only at about 0.1, the max is 2.
>
> What does "0.1" and "2" mean? On what scale? Where do these
> numbers come from , specifically?
>
> http://audacity.sourceforge.net/about/images/recording....
> According to this screen shot, Audacity uses a standard dB
> scale of -60 (or whatever, unlabeled?) up to 0dB at full-scale.
> Dunno how "0.1" and "2" relate to the dB scale?
>
> > Why is this level so low?
>
> We don't know until we understand how you are measuring
> the recording and playback levels in Audacity?
>
> > If I convert to Wav file and transfer to CD it sounds
> > fine, but I can turn my amp up to max without any problem.
>
> You need to figure out the level problems in Audacity
> before worrying about making CDs.

Totally agreed. It sounds like the OP's something of a 'newbie' here,
although that shouldn't discourage him from posting more here in order
to learn.

Graham
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 7:49:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I rerecorded the LP using SV3800 but this time instead of record level
of 5 (scale of 1-10) I set it at 9 for each channel which gave me about
-3dB peak levels with occasional spikes to about -1dB. Then transferred
this to computer with audacity, now I see a much stronger signal -0.5
to +0.5 max on their scale. So I guess I just needed to record at a
higher level. My previous settings gave about -18dB peak levels which
were too low.

Thank you all for your advice,
Glenn
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 8:12:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"gmcenroe" <g.mcenroe@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1121581969.427116.145080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I used the analog output from DAT (my portable Tascam DA-P1 to M-Audio
> audiophile 192 audio card. What kind of cable should i use for S/PDIF?

A video cable with RCA connectors. You can get it at Radio Shack.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
July 17, 2005 9:09:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1121623995.488937.201030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> g.mcenroe@comcast.net writes:

> One thing I found is that if I move the gain slider control
> all the way to the right I can increase the gan from 0 to 24db. I tried
> this and then saved file to wav file and the volume was much higher
> more like a normal CD.

What you did here was the equivalent of turning up the playback
volume. Chances are you didn't do any real harm with this (you could
have used the Normalize function also) but you also boosted the level
of some background noise that you might not have had to do had you
raised the record level when you transferred the recording to disk.
There's a slider for this, and a meter.

> This is the first time I have used
> audacity so I am pretty new at this. I don't know what the vertical
> scale is on the waveform pattern except that it reads 0 to 2 and the
> scale appears to be a linear measurement of the amplitude

There are a number of ways that you can view the waveform and the
level. I've never dug into the documentation for the program, but
rather, played with it like a video game - poking around to see what
happens. Perhaps you should download the full manual and study it, or
just poke around a bit. If you move the mouse pointer over that scale,
you'll see a little icon that turns out to be a magnifier. By right or
left clicking, you can expand or contract the scale. When it's reading
+1 to -1, 1 represents 100% of full amplitude, or 0 dBFS. But
understand that .5 is 50%, and that's only -6 dBFS. Waveform graphics
of things recorded at fairly conservative levels are misleading.

Incidentally, if you pull down the menu that you get when you click
the Audio Track button at the left of the waveform display and select
Waveform (dB) you'll get a dB scale. Again, you can click in the scale
area and adjust the scale to show the peak levels. If you set it so
that 0 is at the top, you'll get a good idea of the relative level of
the track.

> I think revording at -18dB on the SV-3800 should be OK.

It's fine. But presumably when your "eyeball average" level is -18,
you'll have occasional peaks that come pretty close to 0. You have to
allow for them or you'll clip them off.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 1:54:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gmcenroe <g.mcenroe@comcast.net> wrote:
>Thank you all for your suggestions. This is the first time I have used
>audacity so I am pretty new at this. I don't know what the vertical
>scale is on the waveform pattern except that it reads 0 to 2 and the
>scale appears to be a linear measurement of the amplitude of the
>waveform. One thing I found is that if I move the gain slider control
>all the way to the right I can increase the gan from 0 to 24db. I tried
>this and then saved file to wav file and the volume was much higher
>more like a normal CD. It still bothers me that the signal looks so
>small on the waveform pattern though. I think revording at -18dB on the
>SV-3800 should be OK. The screen shot indicated above shows similar
>trace to what I get, the blue waveform in my recording maxes out at
>about 0.1, the scale shown from -1 to +1 in this screenshot. Maybe this
>is what is normally supposed to look like? Their waveform is also
>pretty small in amplitude.

If it sounds fine and the levels are fine, then your problem has only to
do with what it looks like on the screen.

You need to find out first if you are looking at a linear or log scale,
and you may have your choice of either one. You may also have some way
of changing the scale legend so that it is in dBFS or peak 16-bit values
or something else that is relative and understandable.

You can probably magnify the scale if it makes it easier to see, too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 2:05:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gmcenroe <g.mcenroe@comcast.net> wrote:
>I rerecorded the LP using SV3800 but this time instead of record level
>of 5 (scale of 1-10) I set it at 9 for each channel which gave me about
>-3dB peak levels with occasional spikes to about -1dB. Then transferred
>this to computer with audacity, now I see a much stronger signal -0.5
>to +0.5 max on their scale. So I guess I just needed to record at a
>higher level. My previous settings gave about -18dB peak levels which
>were too low.

As I recall, the converters on the SV3700 want to be at high levels, and
have more linearity issues at low levels than high ones. The SV3700
really is a poster child for bad conversion.

But your goal is to make it SOUND good, not to make the lights all
light up in a particular way. If you record it at a low level, you
can normalize it in audacity and bring the levels up. You don't
get any more low-level resolution if you do that, though, just higher
levels.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 19, 2005 2:30:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Normalization worked like a charm, thanks. I guess I should RTFM before
posting
here but I appreciate all your help.

Glenn
!