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EV RE20 and other mic thoughts

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Anonymous
July 19, 2005 3:28:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I found the sound! I've been trying to find the best way to mic my
nylon string guitar for quite sometime. I've used a bunch mics and
positions and gotten usable and fine results from each and every one
but not the sound I was looking for. I've tried AKG 414ULS, Oktava
MK012, THE with the hyper cap and Josephson C42. Like I said all were
good, but not what I'm looking for. I play jazz, similar to Charlie
Byrd or Gene Bertoncini (more like Charlie though) so I don't want a
crisp, cutting sound. instead I've been looking for a warm, round
sound. I have an excellent instrument and I know how to get the
acoustic sound out of it that I seek, but capturing it on tape was
tough. The Josephson is my favorite so far- I think I'll try that as a
drum OH tonight. I bought an RE20 the other day to try on upright bass
but I decided to try it on my guitar last night. bingo- it was exactly
the sound I had been looking for: round and full. Obviously I wouldn't
use this setup for a clasical recital in a hall or church, but for
close miking the instrument for a jazz sound it is just what i wanted.
Now I'll have to figure something else out for the upright bass. I was
thinking a Royer ribbon, but I don't anticipate the figure 8 to fare
too well in my room, especially with the drums. I did order a Beyer
M160 at the same time as the re20. I actually ordered the Beyer for
the guitar and the re20 for the bass, but the beyer are on backorder
until at least end of august. I have a session tonight- I think I'll
try the 414 on hyper for the bass- anyone have any opinions on how this
might fare? Any suggestions I may want to audition? I'm going to keep
the Josephson and try it on drum OH tonight- otherwise I'm sure I'll
find plenty of uses for it. The THE is going back to Mercenary- it
sounds very good, but the response wasn't as clear as the Josephson.
It seemed like around 3-5k it was a little more pronounced. I could be
dreaming but the Josephson seemed more transparent there. I have a
feeling the THE omni might be worth a look, but I don't use those as
much as most as the environments I find myself in tend to suggest close
miking. Anyway, there's my unscientific report! btw I ran all the
mics through a RNP. I figure I'll use the RNP for guitar and bass and
the pres in my mackie onyx board for any other sources (drums, vibes,
etc...).

Nate

More about : re20 mic thoughts

Anonymous
July 19, 2005 3:37:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Nate Najar wrote:
>
> The THE is going back to Mercenary- it
> sounds very good, but the response wasn't as clear as the Josephson.
> It seemed like around 3-5k it was a little more pronounced. I could be
> dreaming but the Josephson seemed more transparent there.


I don't think you're dreaming. Here's a quote from David Josephson on
the tradeoff involved:

"Many modern mics with such low noise specifications ... achieve these
numbers by allowing the capsule to have a rising frequency response in
the mid band, and equalizing it to "flat" with a filter that happens to
match the commonly used A-weighting curve. And, reducing the mid-band
damping increases output and reduces the amount of noise contributed by
the damping air. Two cost-reduction strategies for the price of one, let
the funny sound of a midband scoop-out filter be forgotten in the hype
of lower A-weighted noise spec numbers."
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 2:34:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Be aware that Hypercardioid usually roll off bass frequencies...
That might be a problem when micing an upright bass.....
Stick with cardioid on the 414....


"Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3k4vjcFsbsppU1@individual.net...
> Nate Najar wrote:
> >
> > The THE is going back to Mercenary- it
> > sounds very good, but the response wasn't as clear as the Josephson.
> > It seemed like around 3-5k it was a little more pronounced. I could be
> > dreaming but the Josephson seemed more transparent there.
>
>
> I don't think you're dreaming. Here's a quote from David Josephson on
> the tradeoff involved:
>
> "Many modern mics with such low noise specifications ... achieve these
> numbers by allowing the capsule to have a rising frequency response in
> the mid band, and equalizing it to "flat" with a filter that happens to
> match the commonly used A-weighting curve. And, reducing the mid-band
> damping increases output and reduces the amount of noise contributed by
> the damping air. Two cost-reduction strategies for the price of one, let
> the funny sound of a midband scoop-out filter be forgotten in the hype
> of lower A-weighted noise spec numbers."
Related resources
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 11:24:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Federico wrote:
> Be aware that Hypercardioid usually roll off bass frequencies...
> That might be a problem when micing an upright bass.....
> Stick with cardioid on the 414....
>

The LF rolloff noted with the hypercardioid (and to a lesser degree the
cardioid) is a function of the proximity effect. The standard distance
at which most mics are measured is 1 meter. And at THAT distance,
you'll notice some rolloff with directional mics. However, if you move
the mic closer, the LF flattens out. I don't know too many people who
mic an upright bass from a meter away, do you? I've heard an URB miked
with a KM185 and in another case with an MKH50, and in both cases they
sounded excellent.

Not that there's anything wrong with using a 414, either.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 12:58:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

well I got a real good sound with the 414 on the bass- I'm surprised!
It isn't the most clear sound, but it's the most appropriate to sit in
the mix. It needs hardly any eq and sits nicely. I put it on hyper,
kept it about 3-4 inches away from the strings at around the point
where the fingerboard ends. a slight limiting on the signal is all I
needed to even it out and it works very well.

The Josephson C42 on drums was good and bad. The increased high end of
the mic meant that it picked up more cymbals than I'm used to, but the
flat mids did help to ease any honkiness I usually get from brushes on
a snare drum. In the future it won't be my first choice for a drum OH
unless I was spot miking the individual drums as well. I like to try
and get the drums with 2 mics- OH and kick- and thi wasn't the best
choice for that. It was more usuable than most, but the enhanced
cymbal presence is something I'd like to avoid in the future.

RE20 on nylon guitar was less usable in this situation- I wanted to try
and record all in the same room. This way I can direct the band,
etc.... Surprising I had very little bleed with the bass mic, but the
re20 captured too much drums. On this session i ended up using mostly
a direct feed off the guitar's pickup with just some mic for string
sound. The problem wasn't so much the drum bleed as it was the tone of
the drum bleed- the coloration of it presented some interesting sounds
that I'd like to avoid in the future! I had 2 acoustic panels
surrounding the face of the drums to capture and reduce cymbal sizzle
in the room. The room is 15 wide by 24 deep square. Drummer is in the
end of the room facing the other end, the aforementioned foam panels
surrounding him. Bass player perpendicular to the drummer on the wall
in the middle of the room. I'm playing guitar at the opposite end
facing the drummer (so the back of my cardioid mic is perfectly facing
the drums).

Could anyone offer any suggestions on what to do placement wise so i
can do better with the guitar/drum bleed? And also, what other mics do
you suggest I audition for drum oh in this situation given I don't want
to spot mike individual drums. THanks so much!

Oh by the way Scott D, I've been driving around with that C3000 in my
car for 2 weeks now but I'm going to the post office today so look for
it in a few days.

Nate
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 2:16:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I find the josephsons best on nylons string guitar, I also found them
too 'cymbaly' on drums. 'glassy' is a term I've heard them be described
as. To cure this, I've had pretty good luck placing the mics lower
(e.g. level with the snare) and often times it works very well setting
them in front of the kit - hey, that's how the audience hears the
drums, right? The Nuemann 184 are a bit brighter/edgier then the c42s
btw.

I also have and use the RNP, and the thing you gotta remember is that
this preamp has got an unusual high-end presence, it is slightly
coloured as well. A real nice preamp, no doubt, but in alot of cases
not great for bright small diaphram condensers you'd like to tone down.
Softer ribbons and dynamic mics, like the sm57, sound great through the
RNP though!

Speaking of ribbon mics, they are awesome and I think are the answer to
your problems. Goto RoyarLabs.com and get one of their demo CD's! Don't
let the figure 8 thing worry you too much, unless you've already tried
it and know for sure it's a bad thing, most of the time, in my
experience, it results in a more open sound and with practice gives you
better options when trying to block out bleed from other instruments.

OMNI mics are great, as they are extremely open sounding and have no
proximity effect. Unfortunately, the ones I've tried are a bit too
bright/realistic for me, though YMMV.
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 2:28:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

arfgru wrote:
> OMNI mics are great, as they are extremely open sounding and have no
> proximity effect. Unfortunately, the ones I've tried are a bit too
> bright/realistic for me, though YMMV.

That may be because most omni mics are designed for "diffuse field"
work, i.e. they boost the highs to compensate for HF losses in air and
off of reflective surfaces.

There are models that are flat in the near field, such as the Neumann
KM131, and those that offer only a moderate rise, such as the Schoeps
MK2S.

Mics like the Neumann KM130 and KM183 exhibit an 8dB rise at 10kHz...
(!) and the Sennheiser MKH20 is flat in the default and offers a switch
to bring in the HF boost.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 7:26:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Nate Najar <nate@natenajar.com> wrote:
>The Josephson C42 on drums was good and bad. The increased high end of
>the mic meant that it picked up more cymbals than I'm used to, but the
>flat mids did help to ease any honkiness I usually get from brushes on
>a snare drum. In the future it won't be my first choice for a drum OH
>unless I was spot miking the individual drums as well. I like to try
>and get the drums with 2 mics- OH and kick- and thi wasn't the best
>choice for that. It was more usuable than most, but the enhanced
>cymbal presence is something I'd like to avoid in the future.

So turn it to the side.... if you point it up or down so the cymbals
are off-axis, you will have less top end in the cymbal. This works
with any cardioid mike. (The Josephson sounds pretty good off-axis
although some cardiods do not).

>RE20 on nylon guitar was less usable in this situation- I wanted to try
>and record all in the same room. This way I can direct the band,
>etc.... Surprising I had very little bleed with the bass mic, but the
>re20 captured too much drums.

The RE-20 is pretty directional, but not super directional. The PL-10
is a lot less directional. But neither baffles nor directional mikes
will do anything about bass leakage. Below a couple hundred Hertz there
just isn't anything you can do except to live with the leakage and
make it sounds good.
>
>Could anyone offer any suggestions on what to do placement wise so i
>can do better with the guitar/drum bleed? And also, what other mics do
>you suggest I audition for drum oh in this situation given I don't want
>to spot mike individual drums. THanks so much!

Don't fight the leakage, just make sure it sounds good.
>
>Oh by the way Scott D, I've been driving around with that C3000 in my
>car for 2 weeks now but I'm going to the post office today so look for
>it in a few days.

I'll let you know.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 12:49:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Nate Najar <nate@natenajar.com> wrote:
> >The Josephson C42 on drums was good and bad. The increased high end of
It was more usuable than most, but the enhanced
> >cymbal presence is something I'd like to avoid in the future.
>
> So turn it to the side.... if you point it up or down so the cymbals
> are off-axis, you will have less top end in the cymbal. This works
> with any cardioid mike. (The Josephson sounds pretty good off-axis
> although some cardiods do not).


Haaaa, Laughed my head off, nice one...
I was helping a engineer a while ago, it was an American gig (in
Dublin), I came in on the second day...
So I'm sitting there takin' notes, staying out of the way etc. and then
I notice all the 414's over the strings are "upside down", and I'm
thinking I never thought of that before... Everybody else I'd seen
working in the past set them up with the plug facing downward, and the
buisness side of the mic leaning toward the instruments.
It's the simple things really...
There was also a neat trick with 2 TLM-170's lying on the floor infront
of the basses.

DS
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 12:51:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:16:51 -0400, arfgru wrote
(in article <1121879811.773813.37800@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):

> Speaking of ribbon mics, they are awesome and I think are the answer to
> your problems. Goto RoyarLabs.com and get one of their demo CD's!

but only if you want a very muted top end.


Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
July 25, 2005 5:54:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1121797738.010056.286190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Nate Najar <nate@natenajar.com> wrote:

> I found the sound! I've been trying to find the best way to mic my
> nylon string guitar for quite sometime. I've used a bunch mics and
> positions and gotten usable and fine results from each and every one
> but not the sound I was looking for. I've tried AKG 414ULS, Oktava
> MK012, THE with the hyper cap and Josephson C42. Like I said all were
> good, but not what I'm looking for. I play jazz, similar to Charlie
> Byrd or Gene Bertoncini (more like Charlie though) so I don't want a
> crisp, cutting sound. instead I've been looking for a warm, round
> sound. I have an excellent instrument and I know how to get the
> acoustic sound out of it that I seek, but capturing it on tape was
> tough. The Josephson is my favorite so far- I think I'll try that as a
> drum OH tonight. I bought an RE20 the other day to try on upright bass
> but I decided to try it on my guitar last night. bingo- it was exactly
> the sound I had been looking for: round and full. Obviously I wouldn't
> use this setup for a clasical recital in a hall or church, but for
> close miking the instrument for a jazz sound it is just what i wanted.
> Now I'll have to figure something else out for the upright bass.



I love the re20 (with a nice mic pre and eq like an Amek 9098) with
acoustic guitar.

I love a U87 on acoustic bass. (GML pre and LA3 compressor.)




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

CelebrationSound@aol.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
!