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Shiny new portable recorder.

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Anonymous
July 25, 2005 2:37:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've been considering an Edirol R1 for a while, but this looks rather good.
It's called a microtrack. Records to Flash/microdrive.
8 hours battery, 24/96, phantom, SPDIF in, balanced ins... $499.
I wonder what the converters are like?

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.h...
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 11:07:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <pan.2005.07.24.23.41.36.702533@localhost.com> philicorda@localhost.com writes:

> I've been considering an Edirol R1 for a while, but this looks rather good.
> It's called a microtrack. Records to Flash/microdrive.

Looks like it might be a reasonable alternative. At least it has
inputs on something other than mini phone jacks. Media is still too
expensive for me, however. Too bad they didn't put a 20 or 40 GB
laptop drive (like a Jukebox 3) in it. Microdrives are expensive,
fairly small capacity, and according to some digital camera folks,
aren't very reliable.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 12:56:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hmmm. 1/8 in. stereo or SPDIF Inputs and RCA outputs.... seems like the
line in/out should have been the other way around.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 1:18:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1122252322k@trad:

> Microdrives are expensive,
> fairly small capacity, and according to some digital camera folks,
> aren't very reliable.

I'd skip the microdrives, buy a just barely big enough Compact Flash card
now, and count on progress to help later.

Kingston Elite Pro CF cards are an example of a fast enough major card
which is widely available in the 2 Gb size for about $100. (two hours
recording time at 24/44.1) The 4GB size can be had easily for $230. By
then you are beyond the stated battery life of this offering with phantom
power, anyway, unless you plan to record for bats.

The RAW crowd with big-mexapixel digital cameras are driving demand for
fast multi-gigabyte CF cards. They should get cheaper fast now that there
is a decent size market.

Peter A. Stoll
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 1:34:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:37:15 GMT, philicorda
<philicorda@localhost.com> wrote:

>I've been considering an Edirol R1 for a while, but this looks rather good.
>It's called a microtrack. Records to Flash/microdrive.
>8 hours battery, 24/96, phantom, SPDIF in, balanced ins... $499.
>I wonder what the converters are like?
>
>http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.h...

Yes! -- It seems promising to me. Watchout, Sony. Well, as to
converters I think, if they are 24/96, they must be good enough for
16/44 too {had it a, say, bluetooth or alike, remote control, it would
be just great but have we to wait a while still?}

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 3:12:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

tymish@hotmail.com wrote in news:1122306963.351439.138770
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> Hmmm. 1/8 in. stereo or SPDIF Inputs and RCA outputs.... seems like the
> line in/out should have been the other way around.
>


The page says "1/8" TRS input with 5V power for use with stereo electret
microphone (microphone included)"
and "professional balanced ¼ TRS inputs with mic/line switch"

also "monitoring via RCA line outputs or 1/8" stereo headphone output"

I'd assume the 1/4" inputs and the 1/8" output are on a side not displayed
in these pictures.

Peter A. Stoll
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 5:35:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

philicorda wrote:
> I've been considering an Edirol R1 for a while, but this looks rather good.
> It's called a microtrack. Records to Flash/microdrive.
> 8 hours battery, 24/96, phantom, SPDIF in, balanced ins... $499.
> I wonder what the converters are like?
>
> http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.h...

I can't find anything out about the size of this thing. You can get a
good idea by looking at the 1/8" jacks on the side, but does anyone know
the actual dimensions? Either way, it looks a lot smaller than the
R1....the only drawback is the lack of high-quality built-in mics. At
first I thought the mics on the R1 would be a poor quality gimmick, but
after hearing the samples, why tote around 2 SDC's or even a single
stereo mic when the built in mics sound great?

But I think for REAL field work, the 48v phantom, 1/4" TRS ins and line
outs on seperate "channels" puts this ahead of the R1, assuming it has
the same high-quality pre's and ADC....but even if it doesn't, it has
SPDIF in which for some stupid reason the R1 doesn't have....just pick
up a mic2496 and you're set.

Anyway, here are some more articles I found about it:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/index.php?option=com_cont...

http://createdigitalmusic.com/index.php?option=com_cont...

From the looks of this, it appears to be significantly smaller than the R1.

"...the Flash Tracker looks from the SonicState report to be half the
size, in an iPod-like, curved shell."

Anyway, according to Doug at OADE, the digital level controls could
really hurt the sound quality of this device. Does anyone know if the R1
has digital level controls or analog?

Quoted:
"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be
bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for
tapers or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality."

Jonny Durango
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 8:04:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:56:03 -0700, tymish wrote:

> Hmmm. 1/8 in. stereo or SPDIF Inputs and RCA outputs.... seems like the
> line in/out should have been the other way around.

The inputs are balanced 1/4" TRS with 48v phantom. There is also a 1/8"
mic input with 5v for electrets. I hope the mic pre/line gain adjustment
is done on the analog side, before the A/Ds.
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 10:03:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns969E547DA8513Haifa10Kulim07Michel@216.196.97.138> Lyn1Stoll_spamdel@comcast.net writes:

> I'd skip the microdrives, buy a just barely big enough Compact Flash card
> now, and count on progress to help later.

For me, a just barely big enough flash card would be enough to record
over a whole weekend, perhaps 20 to 30 hours.

> Kingston Elite Pro CF cards are an example of a fast enough major card
> which is widely available in the 2 Gb size for about $100. (two hours
> recording time at 24/44.1)

I haven't used $1,000-$1,500 worth of media on a weekend recording gig
since the 2" tape days. Sure, you can re-use it, but it would take a
week on-and-off to transfer all those cards to another medium.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 10:03:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1122310342k@trad:

>
> For me, a just barely big enough flash card would be enough to record
> over a whole weekend, perhaps 20 to 30 hours.

For that, I agree, nothing less that a notebook class hard drive will do
(as, for example, in the Sound Devices 722). As you and I can buy them for
$60 retail, you'd think they could be put in a reasonable machine, but
these low-volume machines sell at ferocious hardware markups to amortize
development, marketing, and handholding, so I'm afraid ones with such
drives will remain expensive. Microdrives in that capacity are not
current, and in CF envelope I'm not convinced magnetic disk has the
permanent advantage over semiconductor memory that seems so clear in the
larger forms.

> I haven't used $1,000-$1,500 worth of media on a weekend recording gig
> since the 2" tape days. Sure, you can re-use it, but it would take a
> week on-and-off to transfer all those cards to another medium.

The upload speed from a decent card in a decent reader may rival the upload
speed from an HD, but I imagine you are thinking about swap time. At the
moment, on the 722, uploading from the card is actually faster (about 6
Mbytes/second vs. 3, in round numbers), the HD being limited by a 1394
implementation that wants tuning.

But, nit-picking aside, I can see CF is not yet the answer for someone with
your recording duration need. In maybe three years, quite possibly yes.

I wonder whether the firmware in these CF machines actually is set up to
handle cards bigger than 2 or 4 Gb. There are some implementation seams at
those two points which may trip up a machine or two. I can vouch the 722
handles a 4Gb card from personal use.
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 12:50:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <R7CdnXNJ_vsr0XjfRVn-2w@comcast.com> jonnydurango1BUSH_FROM_OFFICE@comcast.net writes:

> > http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.h...
>
> I can't find anything out about the size of this thing. You can get a
> good idea by looking at the 1/8" jacks on the side, but does anyone know
> the actual dimensions?

Nobody knows anything. It's a pre-pre-release teaser announcement.
Wasn't anyone at the NAMM show? They probably had one there.

What size would you like it to be? Generally the size of a portable
audio device is mostly a function of the connectors and controls. I'd
like it to be big enough to have XLRs in and at least 1/4" jacks out,
but I'd settle for 1/4" jacks in if the controls are big enough so you
can hit the right button easily. I'd guess it's about 1 x 3 x 5
inches.

> Anyway, according to Doug at OADE, the digital level controls could
> really hurt the sound quality of this device. Does anyone know if the R1
> has digital level controls or analog?

I don't see anything mechanical on the M-Audio with the possible
exception of the buttons on the side. That means the gain is digitally
controlled, and I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled analog
attenuator. That probably means that when you turn it up, you amplify
the front end noise and when you turn it down, you can get the meters
to read below full scale and still have clipping. Better bring a
pocket full of attenuators.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 3:38:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:

> For me, a just barely big enough flash card would be enough to record
> over a whole weekend, perhaps 20 to 30 hours.
>
> I haven't used $1,000-$1,500 worth of media on a weekend recording gig
> since the 2" tape days. Sure, you can re-use it, but it would take a
> week on-and-off to transfer all those cards to another medium.


I imagine you'd do fine with 2 or 3 of these 4G cards (maybe 8-12 hrs
at 44.1/24), and do an upload to your laptop back at the hotel each
night. You don't have to sit there and watch the upload take place.
Then you burn CDR or DVD-R backups of thes files, and delete them from
the CF cards.

And you don't "use $1000 worth of media on a weekend." The media is
reusable, so consider it equipment, not media. The media is the DVD-R
which costs $0.30 apiece and you use three of them for the weekend.

Even if this recorder sells "street" for the $500 MSRP, and you need
four $250 4G CF cards, you've still got yourself a high-resolution
digital recorder that fits in your shirt pocket for $1500. That's
amazingly cheap.

Is there a good AD converter that'll fit in the other pocket?

ulysses
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 4:01:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1122330509k@trad

> I don't see anything mechanical on the M-Audio with the
possible
> exception of the buttons on the side. That means the gain
is digitally
> controlled, and I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled
analog
> attenuator.

I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.

I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that part
to start showing up all over the place.

Yup, here it is:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pga2500.htm...
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 4:01:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:RbidndjT1u4JKHjfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:znr1122330509k@trad
>
>> I don't see anything mechanical on the M-Audio with the
> possible
>> exception of the buttons on the side. That means the gain
> is digitally
>> controlled, and I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled
> analog
>> attenuator.
>
> I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.
>
> I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
> new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
> preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
> attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that part
> to start showing up all over the place.
>
> Yup, here it is:
>
> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pga2500.htm...

Seems like wishful thinking to imagine that small portable
unit uses a mic preamp chip like the 2500. Would that it
were so.

Doug Oade in his "tapers" online forum....

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be
bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for
tapers
or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality. Still, the
promise
of this thing is as a non resampling 24 bit storage device for the Grace
V3,
Apogee MiniMe or MOD UA5. Until we see Microphone Preamps with A/D
converters that include CF slots, something like this unit is our best
hope
for low cost storage.
Let us all hope they managed to include a good quality 24 bit S/PDIF
input..Doug"

http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/Forum/dcboard.php?az...
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 4:38:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11ebea8atce7t87@corp.supernews.com
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:RbidndjT1u4JKHjfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
>> news:znr1122330509k@trad
>>
>>> I don't see anything mechanical on the M-Audio with the
>> possible
>>> exception of the buttons on the side. That means the
>>> gain
>> is digitally
>>> controlled, and I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled
>> analog
>>> attenuator.
>>
>> I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.
>>
>> I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
>> new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
>> preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
>> attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that
>> part to start showing up all over the place.
>>
>> Yup, here it is:
>>
>> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pga2500.htm...
>
> Seems like wishful thinking to imagine that small portable
> unit uses a mic preamp chip like the 2500. Would that it
> were so.

Time will tell.

> Doug Oade in his "tapers" online forum....

> "Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that
> probably cannot be bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3
> users or ENG but not so great for tapers
> or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality.
> Still, the promise
> of this thing is as a non resampling 24 bit storage
> device for the Grace V3,
> Apogee MiniMe or MOD UA5. Until we see Microphone Preamps
> with A/D converters that include CF slots, something like
> this unit is our best hope
> for low cost storage.
> Let us all hope they managed to include a good quality 24
> bit S/PDIF input..Doug"
>
>
http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/Forum/dcboard.php?az...


I think that Doug knows as much factual information about
the Microtrack as anybody else who has read the M-Audio
press release. ;-)
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 10:49:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns969EAC1EA3673Haifa10Kulim07Michel@216.196.97.138> Lyn1Stoll_spamdel@comcast.net writes:

> > I haven't used $1,000-$1,500 worth of media on a weekend recording gig
> > since the 2" tape days. Sure, you can re-use it, but it would take a
> > week on-and-off to transfer all those cards to another medium.
>
> The upload speed from a decent card in a decent reader may rival the upload
> speed from an HD, but I imagine you are thinking about swap time.

I'm figuring that I could set up something to transfer, get it going,
then do something else for a while. Assuming I was transferring to
media that was larger than the flash card (like a DVD, which I ain't
got any of now) I could let it run unattended. Even if it only took 15
minutes, I might not get back to it for an hour or two. And I
certainly wouldn't want to sit there watching the disk drive lights
blink. Hence the "week."


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 2:20:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <RbidndjT1u4JKHjfRVn-iw@comcast.com> arnyk@hotpop.com writes:

> > I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled analog attenuator.

> I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.
>
> I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
> new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
> preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
> attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that part
> to start showing up all over the place.

That's the one that Mackie is using in their mic/line I/O card for
their dxb console. I don't know if it's cheap enough to use in a
recorder like the M-Audio yet though. I guess we'll wait and see.

Still, the cost of recording media is what will keep me away. I'd be
happy to put up with an extra 1/4" thickness in exchange for an
internal disk drive, but I suspect that the market dictates
pocket-sized as a design criteria.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 2:20:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1122352738.0d1d4016a81af2dddf505e9f9f317dbe@teranews> ulyssesnospam@rollmusic.com writes:

> I imagine you'd do fine with 2 or 3 of these 4G cards (maybe 8-12 hrs
> at 44.1/24), and do an upload to your laptop back at the hotel each
> night.

That's the obviousl solution, but after a day of working at a
festival, fiddling with my recording equipment is about the last thing
I want to do (or even want to have to remember to do). And I distrust
computers enough so that, while I could let it run unattended while
I'm soaking in the hot tub, I would definitely want to check the copy
before erasing the flash card. I suppose that a "file compare" utility
might work OK for that, but I'd rather play it and listen.

> And you don't "use $1000 worth of media on a weekend." The media is
> reusable, so consider it equipment, not media. The media is the DVD-R
> which costs $0.30 apiece and you use three of them for the weekend.

OK, so the recorder costs $1000 more than the apparent cost. That's
still too much. Plus it requires carrying a computer as well as the
recorder. And seeing as how my laptop computer doesn't have a DVD-R
drive, I'd have to either get a new computer or get an external DVD
burner, which is another box to carry with me. When I get "paid" $200
for a weekend (if that much) I can't justify the investment.

My Jukebox 3 (I bought it when it was brand new) cost $300, stores
more than 20 hours of stereo recording, and is small enough so that I
can toss it into my festival tool kit. If I choose to do someone a
favor and make them a CD of their set to give them the next day, I can
let the file transfer run while I'm taking a shower, and burn the CD
(on my present laptop computer, which, I'll admit, I'll probably have
with me) while I'm getting dressed. It will be a rough CD with no
track markers, but it will be quick. And I won't have to erase the
"master" and use the media again the next day.

> Even if this recorder sells "street" for the $500 MSRP, and you need
> four $250 4G CF cards, you've still got yourself a high-resolution
> digital recorder that fits in your shirt pocket for $1500. That's
> amazingly cheap.

I can buy a Sound Devices for that, with an internal hard drive and
real XLR mic inputs. If I was going to spend $1500, I'd go that route,
or possibly the Edirol R-4 which gives me 4 channels if recording that
way makes sense. I would actually prefer something larger and heavier
than shirt pocket size so it's not as likely to slide off the table if
a cable gets pulled.

> Is there a good AD converter that'll fit in the other pocket?

I've often considered accessorizing my Jukebox that way, but I haven't
found the right one at the right price yet. The Jukebox's digital
input is S/PDIF optical, and it uses even a sleazier connector than
TOSLink. It's one of those kludges with an optical sensor at the end
of the line input (mini phone) jack. It works, but I don't trust it
any more than I trust analog audio plugged into that jack.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 2:20:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <1122352738.0d1d4016a81af2dddf505e9f9f317dbe@teranews> ulyssesnospam@rollmusic.com writes:
>
>> Is there a good AD converter that'll fit in the other pocket?
>
> I've often considered accessorizing my Jukebox that way, but I haven't
> found the right one at the right price yet. The Jukebox's digital
> input is S/PDIF optical, and it uses even a sleazier connector than
> TOSLink. It's one of those kludges with an optical sensor at the end
> of the line input (mini phone) jack.

It is TOSlink, just using a different connector.



> It works, but I don't trust it
> any more than I trust analog audio plugged into that jack.

Agreed.
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 2:30:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:RbidndjT1u4JKHjfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:znr1122330509k@trad
>
>> I don't see anything mechanical on the M-Audio with the
> possible
>> exception of the buttons on the side. That means the gain
> is digitally
>> controlled, and I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled
> analog
>> attenuator.
>
> I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.
>
> I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
> new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
> preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
> attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that part
> to start showing up all over the place.
>
> Yup, here it is:
>
> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pga2500.htm...

It has a serious problem as a component for small portable applications: It
draws 300mW per channel. A stereo recorder, using a pair of these preamps,
will draw over half a watt---and that's without even considering the rest of
the recorder.

Norm Strong
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 2:42:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1122377358k@trad
> In article <RbidndjT1u4JKHjfRVn-iw@comcast.com>
> arnyk@hotpop.com writes:
>
>>> I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled analog
>>> attenuator.
>
>> I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.
>>
>> I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
>> new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
>> preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
>> attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that
>> part to start showing up all over the place.
>
> That's the one that Mackie is using in their mic/line I/O
> card for their dxb console. I don't know if it's cheap
> enough to use in a recorder like the M-Audio yet though.

Yea, its not a cheap chip - about $10 in production
quantities. But, it's not like the MXB is cheap or comes
with a lot of mic preamps.

> I guess we'll wait and see.

Agreed.

> Still, the cost of recording media is what will keep me
> away. I'd be happy to put up with an extra 1/4" thickness
> in exchange for an internal disk drive, but I suspect
> that the market dictates pocket-sized as a design
> criteria.

I sort of homed in the microdrive option which is a disk
drive option.

Mike, I also don't share your need for gobs of in-device
storage, probably because I might be a lot more comfortable
with offloading stuff from the portable via USB.
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 2:42:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1122378632k@trad:

>
> OK, so the recorder costs $1000 more than the apparent cost. That's
> still too much. Plus it requires carrying a computer as well as the
> recorder. And seeing as how my laptop computer doesn't have a DVD-R
> drive, I'd have to either get a new computer or get an external DVD
> burner, which is another box to carry with me. When I get "paid" $200
> for a weekend (if that much) I can't justify the investment.

Mike, I doubt this is a solution for you, but in case other are following
this thread:

An alternate to laptops or burners for storing flash card data has
cropped up mostly in the digital photography world. Some are called
"image tanks". At the bare bones minimum, they are basically a box with
a laptop hard drive, a battery, one or more card reader interfaces, and
one or more computer interfaces.

I just bought an extraordinaryly inexpensive example of the breed. The
Digimate II-Plus as sold with a preinstalled 30 Gbyte hard drive by
mwave.com for $105 delivered.

-Has reader ports for nearly all current flash cards. Slower than more
expensive models, about 2.1 Mbytes/sec for large files. (faster models
will do 6 to 12, but cost several times more)
-Lithium Polymer battery is good for about 80 minutes (about 9 Gigabytes
of upload.
-Has USB2 computer interface, can upload large files at about 9
Gigabyte/sec from its HD to a USB2 PC (much slower to a USB1 PC)
-uploading card to disk it dirt simple. power on the Digimate, stick in
the card, observe the card ID light up on the display and that adequate
free space (shown) remains on the HD to upload the card data amount
(shown). Push the "upload" button. Watch a progress display if you are
conservative.
-uploading from the Digimate to a PC is almost as simple--just plug in
the usb cable and an XP PC will recognize it as a device, and display its
contents in Windows Explorer as an additional drive. Each separate
uploading of a card is placed in a separate directory, so you are safe if
your file from yesterday has the same name as your file from today.

Downsides
-unknown manufacturer--no comfort factor of a major support organizatiom
-slow card upload speed

Upsides
-amazingly inexpensive
-sturdy construction
-good upload progress display for situational awareness

People who are considering a flash field recorder might think of a gadget
in this class. Other, faster models currently popular with the storage-
heads at dpreview.com's user forums include the Nexto-CF (somewhat over
$250 by the time you add your own hard drive), and the PD70X (something
like $200-250 or more). Neither is sold by U.S. sellers, but they are
easy enough to find on eBay or overseas web sites.

Peter A. Stoll
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 6:05:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:p MydnQV7NeOh7nvfRVn-jg@comcast.com
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:RbidndjT1u4JKHjfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
>> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
>> news:znr1122330509k@trad
>>
>>> I don't see anything mechanical on the M-Audio with the
>> possible
>>> exception of the buttons on the side. That means the
>>> gain
>> is digitally
>>> controlled, and I'll bet it's not a digitally controlled
>> analog
>>> attenuator.
>>
>> I'm hoping that you'll lose that bet, Mike.
>>
>> I seem to recall that about six months ago TI announced a
>> new low-power-supply-voltage (+/-5) high-performance mic
>> preamp chip with a built-in digitally-controlled analog
>> attenuator. Seems like the time might be right for that
>> part to start showing up all over the place.
>>
>> Yup, here it is:
>>
>> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pga2500.htm...
>
> It has a serious problem as a component for small
> portable applications: It draws 300mW per channel.

I noticed that. Like 30-40 milliamps for each of the plus
and minus 5 volt supplies. It's almost like what good is
the low voltage operation?

> A stereo recorder, using a pair of these preamps, will
draw
> over half a watt---and that's without even considering
> the rest of the recorder.

If you haven't had the experience Norm, hard drive based
portable recorders like my Nomad NJB3 run pretty warm. I
think that total device dissipation while playing .wav files
is like 5 watts or more. That's why the size of these
devices is dominated by the batteries and their mass
storage.
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 6:52:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:
> I sort of homed in the microdrive option which is a disk
> drive option.
>
> Mike, I also don't share your need for gobs of in-device
> storage, probably because I might be a lot more comfortable
> with offloading stuff from the portable via USB.
>
>

I agree....a 2 or 4GB CF card is plenty for most ppl, myself included,
especially considering the battery will probably die before you use 4
gigs. I could understand for people who record musical festivals or
shows in which multiple bands are playing, or long lectures and such,
but I think the average "taper" records less than an hour or two at a
time and would rather have something they can throw in the pocket for
spur-of-the-moment recordings as opposed to lugging some big mechinal
hard drive around that will record 40 hours of uncompressed audio.

I think we've all run in to that situation, somewhere, it could be
anywhere at any time where there is a sound or something so incredible
that we pray that something like the microtracker would fall from the
heavens into our hands. Anyway, I applaud M-Audio and hope in the final
version they put more thought into the gain stages and level monitoring.

Jonny Durango
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 7:14:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <58ednaYS7bsi1nvfRVn-iQ@comcast.com> arnyk@hotpop.com writes:

> I sort of homed in the microdrive option which is a disk
> drive option.

I thought about the Fostex FR-2 (I think that's the number) because it
would take a Microdrive, but that was before the digital camera folks
started picking up the Microdrive, the price went down a bit, and the
reports of occasionally losing all the data started coming in. I don't
think I'd trust that for a field recording when there's no chance to
do another take, and you might not even find out that you need another
take until too late.

> Mike, I also don't share your need for gobs of in-device
> storage, probably because I might be a lot more comfortable
> with offloading stuff from the portable via USB.

If it was for in-house use, it wouldn't be that much of a problem. But
when I go off on a field trip, I like to minimize the amount of stuff
that I have to carry with me, as well as the amount of stuff that I
have to hook up in order to make a recording. This is why I'm looking
for something that doesn't need to be unloaded before I can get back
to work. It's also why I'm looking for something that has usable mic
inputs so I don't have to carry an outboard preamp if I'm not
recording from an existing mixer.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 7:14:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns969F62B05C439Haifa10Kulim07Michel@216.196.97.138> Lyn1Stoll_spamdel@comcast.net writes:

> An alternate to laptops or burners for storing flash card data has
> cropped up mostly in the digital photography world. Some are called
> "image tanks". At the bare bones minimum, they are basically a box with
> a laptop hard drive, a battery, one or more card reader interfaces, and
> one or more computer interfaces.

Somebody (a camera person, in fact) showed me one of those. Still,
it's intermediate, temporarly storage. There's something very
comforting about taking the media out of the recorder and putting it
away. A lot of the field recording that I do doesn't get played or
produced immediately. It could sit on the shelf for several years
before someone pulls it out to see what went on at that festival that
year. Tape reels and cassettes were berry berry good for that.

Recording on a flash card, copying to a portable disk drive, then
again to a CD or DVD for shelf storage means that your only copy (what
then becomes the "master") is third generation. I know that digital
copies are supposed to be perfect clones, but now and then something
goes wrong. When it does, you don't lose a little high end like making
an analog tape copy, you lose everything.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 11:08:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <pMydnQV7NeOh7nvfRVn-jg@comcast.com> normanstrong@comcast.net writes:

> > http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pga2500.htm...
>
> It has a serious problem as a component for small portable applications: It
> draws 300mW per channel. A stereo recorder, using a pair of these preamps,
> will draw over half a watt---and that's without even considering the rest of
> the recorder.

Hey, that's good. Probably gen-u-wine pretty-close-to-Class-A
operation. But not good for a battery powered portable, for sure.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:59:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <h46dnRK5lompLXvfRVn-sA@comcast.com> jonnydurango1BUSH_FROM_OFFICE@comcast.net writes:

> I agree....a 2 or 4GB CF card is plenty for most ppl, myself included,
> especially considering the battery will probably die before you use 4
> gigs. I could understand for people who record musical festivals or
> shows in which multiple bands are playing, or long lectures and such,
> but I think the average "taper" records less than an hour or two at a
> time

This is exactly the problem - the products are designed for the
"average" user and that's all you can buy unless you're willing to pay
at least three times the price for a difference that's worth maybe
$50. But "economy of scale" talks. The average user would tell you
that he couldn't use it because his microphone plug won't fit and he
can't take the disk out (like a flash card) and plug it into his
computer. In fact, the true "average" user isn't even interested in
recording, which is why there are so many more loadable players than
recorders available.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:36:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:42:07 -0400, Peter A. Stoll wrote
(in article <Xns969F62B05C439Haifa10Kulim07Michel@216.196.97.138>):

> mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1122378632k@trad:
>
>>
>> OK, so the recorder costs $1000 more than the apparent cost. That's
>> still too much. Plus it requires carrying a computer as well as the
>> recorder. And seeing as how my laptop computer doesn't have a DVD-R
>> drive, I'd have to either get a new computer or get an external DVD
>> burner, which is another box to carry with me. When I get "paid" $200
>> for a weekend (if that much) I can't justify the investment.

The M-Audio 2496 looks like a winner. Haven't heard it yet.

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 12:38:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:14:19 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote
(in article <znr1122394566k@trad>):

>
> In article <58ednaYS7bsi1nvfRVn-iQ@comcast.com> arnyk@hotpop.com writes:
>
>> I sort of homed in the microdrive option which is a disk
>> drive option.
>
> I thought about the Fostex FR-2 (I think that's the number) because it
> would take a Microdrive, but that was before the digital camera folks
> started picking up the Microdrive, the price went down a bit, and the
> reports of occasionally losing all the data started coming in. I don't
> think I'd trust that for a field recording when there's no chance to
> do another take, and you might not even find out that you need another
> take until too late.

The FR-2 is 14 inches away right now. It uses two kinds of cards, no
microdrive. It also has a timecode option.

The Edirol box just came in.

More later.

Ty



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 1:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Re: Shiny new portable recorder.

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Tue, Jul 26, 2005, 10:20am From:
mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)

In article <1122352738.0d1d4016a81af2dddf505e9f9f317dbe@teranews>
ulyssesnospam@rollmusic.com writes:

Even if this recorder sells "street" for the $500 MSRP, and you need
four $250 4G CF cards, you've still got yourself a high-resolution
digital recorder that fits in your shirt pocket for $1500. That's
amazingly cheap.


I can buy a Sound Devices for that, with an internal hard drive and real
XLR mic inputs. If I was going to spend $1500, I'd go that
route,<<<<<<<<<<

Actually you can't. The Sound Devices 722
2 track hd recorder has a street price of $2375.


Eric
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 3:29:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> This is exactly the problem - the products are designed for the
> "average" user and that's all you can buy unless you're willing to pay
> at least three times the price for a difference that's worth maybe
> $50. But "economy of scale" talks. The average user would tell you
> that he couldn't use it because his microphone plug won't fit and he
> can't take the disk out (like a flash card) and plug it into his
> computer. In fact, the true "average" user isn't even interested in
> recording, which is why there are so many more loadable players than
> recorders available.
>
>

Very true...I agree there is a market gap between devices like the R1
and the 722T that is only filled with cheesy consumer grade stuff like
the JB3 and iRiver thingy. But for the average "taper" or semi-pro
recordist, most people don't need more than an 8GB CF card for one
recording. And if they need more overall storage, keep in mind that you
can buy any number of flash cards, but a HD has an absolute limit, that
might be further restricted by the firmware or FAT.

Hopefully in the future, as the market becomes more competetive, the
price of CF media will come way down and we can all be happy.

Jonny Durango
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 4:37:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <QdWdnc_meLEl4nrfRVn-iw@comcast.com> tyreeford@comcast.net writes:

> The M-Audio 2496 looks like a winner. Haven't heard it yet.

Another (for me) loser. No internal hard drive. Can't afford the media
to use it for a weekend long gig without having to recycle, and I
don't want to trust myself to do that correctly when I'm tired.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 7:44:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
> Another (for me) loser. No internal hard drive. Can't afford the media
> to use it for a weekend long gig without having to recycle, and I
> don't want to trust myself to do that correctly when I'm tired.

*IF* you had enough time between sets/performers and *IF*
this thing works with CF audio recorders, this might the the answer..

http://www.supergooddeal.com/product_p/hs80otg.htm

80GB space for $158
Automatically (one button) downloads device contents into
hard drive without using computer, etc.

If I had known about this I might have got a Marantz PMD-660
and this thing to take with me to Spain last month.
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 10:12:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <8747-42E78883-7@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> Audioetc@webtv.net writes:

> Actually you can't. The Sound Devices 722
> 2 track hd recorder has a street price of $2375.

That's sure a big change from the original plan. I've just been
watching the development, not the price. I guess I'll stick with my
Jukebox 3 for a while yet.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 10:52:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've thought about the Cinte also, but until it Googles up more than 5
hits (with just one user opinion), I'm holding off. There's plenty of
other options for CF standalone storage that aren't unreasonable
(Wolverine, SmartDisk), but yeah the Cintre's quite a bit cheaper.


I just don't get the grousing about the media. You buy some large
cards and a storage unit (the Wolverine 80 gig is $270) and you record.
Every two hours you swap cards. It's not as if half the other stuff
we do isn't a pain in the ass.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 5:06:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:55:13 -0500, "Peter A. Stoll"
<Lyn1Stoll_spamdel@comcast.net> wrote:

>mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1122310342k@trad:
>
>>
>> For me, a just barely big enough flash card would be enough to record
>> over a whole weekend, perhaps 20 to 30 hours.
>

>I wonder whether the firmware in these CF machines actually is set up to
>handle cards bigger than 2 or 4 Gb. There are some implementation seams at
>those two points which may trip up a machine or two. I can vouch the 722
>handles a 4Gb card from personal use.

The Edirol R1 works fine with 8 GB CF cards, although in 2 GB max
pieces. If they came up with a firmware revision to auto split files
at some reasonable size (1 or 2 GB) it would be perfect. Now it
just shuts down and saves at the 2 GB limit.

Jeff
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 10:42:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <dc92nq$3ab$1@news01.intel.com> richard.7.crowley@intel.com writes:

> *IF* you had enough time between sets/performers and *IF*
> this thing works with CF audio recorders, this might the the answer..

Someone mentioned this approach - essentially a hard drive with a flash
card reader and an "operating system" that knew how to do just one
thing - copy the flash card files to the hard drive. Thing is that the
more intermediate steps you have between the original recording and
what you're going to produce from, the more chances you have that
something won't be there when you need it. It's fine for studio work
and casual work where you can eithe do it again or just blow it off if
it's not there, but if you have to bring home the bacon, it's best to
bring the pig back alive, and then make the bacon when you have plenty
of time.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 1:25:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <7obge1538mjuacg0eg2m34rscm2e94vl3u@4ax.com> jff@ix.netcom.com writes:

> The Edirol R1 works fine with 8 GB CF cards, although in 2 GB max
> pieces.

As far as recording goes, I have no problem with a 2 GB limit. There
are always places to break, at least for the things I record. What's
nice about using, for example, cassettes, is that you can record one
set on a cassette, you change tapes at the end of the set, and you've
only invested a couple of dollars. A $50 tape budget can cover a
weekend and you don't have to worry about recycling the media.

A 1 GB card would probably be about the equivalent in terms of
recording time, but that's (just guessing here) about $25 per card,
plus the darn things are so small you can't write anything on them
except maybe for an index number, so how do you know what's on each
card?

> If they came up with a firmware revision to auto split files
> at some reasonable size (1 or 2 GB) it would be perfect.

I'd rather have a button I can press to do that. The Jukebox 3 with
the current firmware does that (when I can remember which button to
press) but it leaves a small gap. No problem if you split during a
pause. The bigger the files, the more difficult they are to handle -
longer transfer time, more "receiver" space required, and more to lose
if it doesn't work.

I know that professional news photographers are all using digital
cameras with flash cards. I wonder what kind of failure rates they
have? On the other hand, photos take up a whole lot less space than
audio, so you can shoot all day on one card, transfer the files in a
few minutes, and chances are if you work for a newspaper or agency,
they're paying for the media anyway.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 1:25:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1122515538.853823.164820@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> vdubreeze@earthlink.net writes:

> I just don't get the grousing about the media. You buy some large
> cards and a storage unit (the Wolverine 80 gig is $270) and you record.
> Every two hours you swap cards.

There are some problems. One is with organization of the media. If you
have a bunch of medium sized cards, you have a lot of them to keep
track of. If you buy a couple of large cards, you're dead in the water
until you either transfer the data and recycle the cards, or you buy
more cards.

The other is a percepual problem. The recorder is cheap and
attractive, but it isn't useful until you invest several times the
cost of the recorder in re-usable media. It's that you really can't
buy a $300 recorder with interchangeable media, you buy a $1500
recorder with reusable media.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:55:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1122548045k@trad

> A 1 GB card would probably be about the equivalent in
terms of
> recording time, but that's (just guessing here) about $25
per card,

Just looked, it seems that 1 GB flash is still up in the
$50-75 range.

1 GB is about 90 minutes of 16/44 stereo, right?

> plus the darn things are so small you can't write
anything on them
> except maybe for an index number, so how do you know
what's on each
> card?

If you want something bigger to write on, stuff each card in
a paper envelope.

> I know that professional news photographers are all using
digital
> cameras with flash cards. I wonder what kind of failure
rates they
> have?

I went swimming a couple of weeks ago in our community's
ozinated swimming pool for over an hour with a 256 meg Lexar
Jumpdrive USB flash memory device on my pocket key ring. I
dried it out by hanging it in front on my PC's PS for about
half a day. This extended drying may not have been needed.
The LED stopped working but the memory reads and writes just
fine.

It's been dipped ans showered with it a few times since, and
I just shook it off and used it.

BTW, my use of this flash memory device is rough enought
that the nomenclature is significantly worn off after 3
months. I've also had to repair a break in its rubber
keyring holder, but the memory itself keeps working.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 9:05:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:25:08 +0200, Mike Rivers wrote:


> In article <7obge1538mjuacg0eg2m34rscm2e94vl3u@4ax.com>
> jff@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>> The Edirol R1 works fine with 8 GB CF cards, although in 2 GB max
>> pieces.
>
> As far as recording goes, I have no problem with a 2 GB limit. There are
> always places to break, at least for the things I record. What's nice
> about using, for example, cassettes, is that you can record one set on a
> cassette, you change tapes at the end of the set, and you've only
> invested a couple of dollars. A $50 tape budget can cover a weekend and
> you don't have to worry about recycling the media.
>
> A 1 GB card would probably be about the equivalent in terms of recording
> time, but that's (just guessing here) about $25 per card, plus the darn
> things are so small you can't write anything on them except maybe for an
> index number, so how do you know what's on each card?

If you want to record a weekend, use 2 flashcards and a hard disk like:
http://www.cooldrives.com/usb-on-the-go-enclosure-usb-o...
While recording one card transfer the other to the disk.
Except for the exact file creation date, you don't have much info.

I have not seen much about the quality of preamps and conversion yet. Has
anyone seen and or used this microtrack? What about quality?

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 9:05:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <3ksah9FvatigU1@individual.net> chel@vangennip.nl writes:

> If you want to record a weekend, use 2 flashcards and a hard disk like:
> http://www.cooldrives.com/usb-on-the-go-enclosure-usb-o...
> While recording one card transfer the other to the disk.

No. Just plain NO. I don't want to have to do anything but remove the
"cassette" and pop another one in its place. I don't want to have to
think about anything else until live gets back to normal pace.
Sometimes I have trouble remembering to hit the Record button. You
expect me to back up files, trust what I did without verifying it, and
then, delete the original? You have more faith in me than I do.

> Except for the exact file creation date, you don't have much info.

I could have a couple of pages full of notes as to what's recorded on
there. At festivals, we have other people to do this so we (the
engineers) don't have to worry about it. They write down the
performer, the song titles, the instruments, who's playing what if
they switch around, and they'll go up to the performers after the set
to fill in the blanks if they miss a song title or aren't sure of how
to spell it. The log and the media have to get together and be able to
be kept together. And the loggers don't all carry computers, so it's
hand written on real paper, and usually stays that way for 50 years.

> I have not seen much about the quality of preamps and conversion yet. Has
> anyone seen and or used this microtrack? What about quality?

If you're still talking about the M-Audio flash card recorder,
nobody's seen it yet with the exception perhaps of some testers, and
they don't talk until at least the product is actually available.
You'll just have to be patient. I doubt that they're fabulous, and
they can't be very bad with today's technology. But as we've discussed
here before (and like the person with the R1 who's getting distortion
when he's recording his loud band up close) if the record level
control is on the digital side of the A/D converter, it's really only
good for turning things up, not turning them down.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:39:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:54:47 +0200, Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <3ksah9FvatigU1@individual.net> chel@vangennip.nl writes:
>
>> If you want to record a weekend, use 2 flashcards and a hard disk like:
>> http://www.cooldrives.com/usb-on-the-go-enclosure-usb-o... While
>> recording one card transfer the other to the disk.
>
> No. Just plain NO. I don't want to have to do anything but remove the
> "cassette" and pop another one in its place. I don't want to have to
> think about anything else until live gets back to normal pace. Sometimes
> I have trouble remembering to hit the Record button. You expect me to
> back up files, trust what I did without verifying it, and then, delete
> the original? You have more faith in me than I do.

Even with casettes you will have to do something to store it. Puting a CF
module in a device and press one button should be possible.

>> Except for the exact file creation date, you don't have much info.
>
> I could have a couple of pages full of notes as to what's recorded on
> there. At festivals, we have other people to do this so we (the
> engineers) don't have to worry about it. They write down the performer,
> the song titles, the instruments, who's playing what if they switch
> around, and they'll go up to the performers after the set to fill in the
> blanks if they miss a song title or aren't sure of how to spell it. The
> log and the media have to get together and be able to be kept together.
> And the loggers don't all carry computers, so it's hand written on real
> paper, and usually stays that way for 50 years.

If this are your requirements, you need a DAW in a laptop with firewire
or USB soundcard. Ad a scanner for the documentation. Just write the
exact time of the performace on the paper befor scanning ;-)

--
Chel van Gennip
Bezoek Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 1:07:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
> when I go off on a field trip, I like to minimize the amount of stuff
> that I have to carry with me, as well as the amount of stuff that I
> have to hook up in order to make a recording.


If you take your laptop with you on the road anyway, why not just use
that? An outboard interface isn't going to represent any more cartage
than a portable recorder.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 2:49:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <0lmGe.171188$tt5.81708@edtnps90> Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca writes:

> If you take your laptop with you on the road anyway, why not just use
> that? An outboard interface isn't going to represent any more cartage
> than a portable recorder.

The laptop stays in the hotel room. It's there to check e-mail and
entertain myself surfing the web when I wake up at 6 AM and the
festival doesn't start until 11. That isn't always the ideal
configuration for recording audio.

There may not be enough room for a laptop-based recording system at
the PA console. You have the computer taking up about a square foot,
then you have the external audio interface (that usualy has a fairly
short leash so you can't put it anywhere, it needs to be fairly close
to the computer), and with a several gigabytes a day being stored, I'd
want to use an external disk drive. The power supply usually ends up
on the ground. The recorder that I use now (Jukebox 3) or the new
recorders I'm looking at are complete in one package, with the
possible exception of the power supply, and have about half the
footprint of a laptop computer.

Besides, how easy is it to see a laptop LCD screen in the bright sun?
And do laptop computers keep working when the sun is beating down on
them? Mine gets bloody hot just sitting on a shelf in the house when
it's on all day. And then how easy is it to see the keyboard after the
sun goes down?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 3:25:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Peter A. Stoll" <Lyn1Stoll_spamdel@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns969E547DA8513Haifa10Kulim07Michel@216.196.97.138...
> mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1122252322k@trad:
>
> > Microdrives are expensive,
> > fairly small capacity, and according to some digital camera folks,
> > aren't very reliable.
>
> I'd skip the microdrives, buy a just barely big enough Compact Flash card
> now, and count on progress to help later.
>

You can only count on 'progress' to give you a replacement system to
purchase later. By the time there are significantly larger cards, Edirol or
another vendor will have superceded this unit with a model that will support
the larger cards and this unit will not be upgraded in a meaningful way.
That is the nature of all computer-based technology. practicing the myth of
'upgradability' or 'scalability' is at best a stopgap measure. Always was
and always will be.

> Kingston Elite Pro CF cards are an example of a fast enough major card
> which is widely available in the 2 Gb size for about $100. (two hours
> recording time at 24/44.1) The 4GB size can be had easily for $230.

The upshot is that those will only get cheaper, so if one buys this unit
now, they will be able to get more cards for it later at fractions of the
price. For a while, at least.

jb
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 3:47:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1122394566k@trad...

> If it was for in-house use, it wouldn't be that much of a problem. But
> when I go off on a field trip, I like to minimize the amount of stuff
> that I have to carry with me, as well as the amount of stuff that I
> have to hook up in order to make a recording. This is why I'm looking
> for something that doesn't need to be unloaded before I can get back
> to work. It's also why I'm looking for something that has usable mic
> inputs so I don't have to carry an outboard preamp if I'm not
> recording from an existing mixer.
>

The marantz solid state recorders have pre's, but it's still using a small
flash card.

Maybe if we complain long and loudly enough about things that don't exist
but should somebody else will make them.

jb
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 4:32:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"reddred" <opaloka@REMOVECAPSyahoo.com> wrote in
news:XPmdnbDMrJdvDnDfRVn-tw@adelphia.com:

> "Peter A. Stoll" <Lyn1Stoll_spamdel@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns969E547DA8513Haifa10Kulim07Michel@216.196.97.138...
>> I'd skip the microdrives, buy a just barely big enough Compact Flash
>> card now, and count on progress to help later.
>>
>
> You can only count on 'progress' to give you a replacement system to
> purchase later. By the time there are significantly larger cards,
> Edirol or another vendor will have superceded this unit with a model
> that will support the larger cards and this unit will not be upgraded
> in a meaningful way. That is the nature of all computer-based
> technology. practicing the myth of 'upgradability' or 'scalability' is
> at best a stopgap measure. Always was and always will be.

I lived, breathed, and worked semiconductors as applied to computers
professionally from 1974 to 2004. Though plenty of upgrade stories were
exaggerated, and some even bogus, you are overstating the general case. CF
has so far met the upgrade promise over a fair number of powers of two
(I've seen 16 Mbyte, and I've bought 4 Gbyte--256x is a pretty large range,
I'd say). I'd say digital electronics in many cases and dimensions
provided a more practical and smoother upgrade path than anything that
happened in the analog tape world, to give a nearby comparison.

>> Kingston Elite Pro CF cards are an example of a fast enough major
>> card which is widely available in the 2 Gb size for about $100. (two
>> hours recording time at 24/44.1) The 4GB size can be had easily for
>> $230.
>
> The upshot is that those will only get cheaper, so if one buys this
> unit now, they will be able to get more cards for it later at
> fractions of the price. For a while, at least.
>
> jb

Well, I don't know whether the unit ostensibly providing a topic for this
thread has a limitation on some threshold of CF card size, but the standard
is well defined, and for enough money the answer is testable now, with 8 GB
CF cards somewhat easy to find, though very expensive, and at last one 12
GB card out there, obscenely expensive (recently reduced from $9999 list to
$4999 list). Right now the 2GB Kingston is about at the minimum of the
$/byte curve for reasonably fast cards. That minimum is likely to move
down and out for some time yet.

Peter A. Stoll
former IC design person
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 11:22:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <XPmdnbDMrJdvDnDfRVn-tw@adelphia.com> opaloka@REMOVECAPSyahoo.com writes:

> The upshot is that those will only get cheaper, so if one buys this unit
> now, they will be able to get more cards for it later at fractions of the
> price. For a while, at least.

But probably not for as long as the recorder would otherwise last. As
an example, the motherboard used in the Mackie HDR24/96 and MDR24/96
had a BIOS that didn't recognize drives larger than 32 GB. That's
plenty of disk space for any reasonable studio project, but required
multiple drives (and a break to switch them) for recording a long
event using all 24 tracks. In addition, as the price of larger drives
fell, the price of 20-30 GB drives stabilized, and eventually dealers
stopped stocking them. In order to get a "small" disk drive, you had
to find an on-line seller and usually buy an OEM package. Nothing
wrong with that, but it was a pain if you didn't keep a couple of
drives on the shelf for that last-minute project.

They eventually came up with an updated BIOS chip that supports drives
up to 120 GB, but now it's the 160 and 200 GB drives that we see
dropping in price, and 120 GB and smaller drives are starting to
disappear from retail shelves.

The recorder, however, is just as good as it was when it was new, but
eventually it will become a fixed-media machine. Even analog tape,
after a scare, is making a manufacturing comeback. And it's easier to
modify an analog tape recorder to work with modern tape formulations
than it is to write new BIOS code for a discontinued computer
motherboard.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
!