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Audio Editing program that can visually overlay two wavefo..

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Anonymous
July 30, 2005 2:51:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the
feature I need.

I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better
audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source
in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the
length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original
track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations
in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance).

What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually
match the peaks. In animation, this feature is termed "onion-skinning",
after the thin paper used for tracing. Ideally, the program would also
allow one to stretch time visually - perhaps by overlaying a set of
tick marks that would represent minutes/seconds/frames and would allow
the user to select and drag them to "squash and stretch" the time. I
know that there is a lot of audio data to manipulate, but for my
purposes, real-time playback is not needed. I could do all this
visually and then "render" the audio. Or possibly a low quality audio
version (8 bit for instance) could be used as a "proxy".

Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking
to create a sound editor that has these features?
July 30, 2005 6:44:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

if the audio is speech, it probably has slight gaps in it, in which
case one could cut the audio into short sections and align each section
manually (easy enough to do). This can be done even if there are no
gaps, by cutting in suitable places and overlapping the audio, with
careful adjustment and cross-fading . . . if a section is too short,
you can lengthen it then cross-fade etc. This is time-consuming, but
good results are usually possible (I've done it many times to adjust
things in music).

To stretch and squash time smoothly (rather than in sections) you could
use a "graphic pitch-bend" feature . . . CoolEdit (now Adobe Audition)
has one . . . so you can change the speed gradually, using a graph you
create. You'd still have to fit this to what you want, manually,
though, so it's still a time-consuming solution.

One possible more automatic solution is that a good sequencer program
(such as Logic Audio) can create a "groove template" from a rhythmic
section of audio, and then another rhythmic section of audio can be
automatically adjusted to fit that groove template. But, that would
only work if the audio is rhythmic enough for the software to detect
the "beats" I would guess.

I have not heard of any software which does exactly what you are
describing.

That's all I can think of for now!

Chris
(http://www.chris-melchior.com/strings.htm REAL strings for realistic
prices)
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 12:57:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Or if you don't want to migrate to a different application, why don't
you create markers for your master layer and split the additional
layers intro smaller audio snippets and just snap/drag them onto the
marker points? If the whole track is not rhythmically constant and
recorded against a metronome, you'll probably have to perform the
splits anyway...

Regards,

Evangelos

%
Evangelos Himonides
IoE, University of London
tel: +44 2076126599
fax: +44 2076126741
"Allas to those who never sing but die with all their music in them..."



Oliver Wendell Holmes
%
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Anonymous
July 30, 2005 2:23:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chris W" <post2rame@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1122702672.365569.218550@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
> can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the
> feature I need.
>
> What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
> waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually
> match the peaks.
>
> Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking
> to create a sound editor that has these features?


I think that by loosing this feature in favor of a 'dual audio layer' in newer
versions, came a big loss of functionality for CD Architect. If you have an
older version of Sonic Foundry's CD Architect (4.xx), it has this function.
You can drag one file directly over another, have a clear graphic repre-
sentation of both files and the ability to select and manipulate either.

You might even have some luck with a newer version of CDA using the
'dual audio layer.' However, the two layers do not superimpose but rather
run concurrently above and below one another. They also do not automatically
'mix' on playback and any editing of this nature still has to be done in 'Forge'.


--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 2:23:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I think DP has this feature, called vocalyn(sp) One waveform can be mapped
to another. Maybe you know someone in your area with this program

Rick Hollett
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:QyIGe.2426$Tk6.1166@trnddc02...
>
> "Chris W" <post2rame@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122702672.365569.218550@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
>> can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the
>> feature I need.
>>
>> What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
>> waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually
>> match the peaks.
>>
>> Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking
>> to create a sound editor that has these features?
>
>
> I think that by loosing this feature in favor of a 'dual audio layer' in
> newer
> versions, came a big loss of functionality for CD Architect. If you have
> an
> older version of Sonic Foundry's CD Architect (4.xx), it has this
> function.
> You can drag one file directly over another, have a clear graphic repre-
> sentation of both files and the ability to select and manipulate either.
>
> You might even have some luck with a newer version of CDA using the
> 'dual audio layer.' However, the two layers do not superimpose but rather
> run concurrently above and below one another. They also do not
> automatically
> 'mix' on playback and any editing of this nature still has to be done in
> 'Forge'.
>
>
> --
> David Morgan (MAMS)
> http://www.m-a-m-s.com
> Morgan Audio Media Service
> Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
> _______________________________________
> http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
>
>
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 2:33:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1122702672.365569.218550@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> post2rame@gmail.com writes:

> I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better
> audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source
> in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the
> length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original
> track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations
> in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance).
>
> What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
> waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually
> match the peaks.

It sounds like what you want is like a drum replacement program only
for speech. I've heard of one, for exactly your application, called
Dialog Replacer or something like that. I'm sure it's frightfully
expensive and unless you're working on a large project, it would make
more sense to find someone who has it and knows how to use it, and pay
to have the dialog replaced in that segment.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 2:33:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:51:12 -0400, Chris W wrote
(in article <1122702672.365569.218550@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):

> I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
> can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the
> feature I need.
>
> I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better
> audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source
> in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the
> length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original
> track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations
> in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance).
>
> What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
> waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually
> match the peaks. In animation, this feature is termed "onion-skinning",
> after the thin paper used for tracing. Ideally, the program would also
> allow one to stretch time visually - perhaps by overlaying a set of
> tick marks that would represent minutes/seconds/frames and would allow
> the user to select and drag them to "squash and stretch" the time. I
> know that there is a lot of audio data to manipulate, but for my
> purposes, real-time playback is not needed. I could do all this
> visually and then "render" the audio. Or possibly a low quality audio
> version (8 bit for instance) could be used as a "proxy".
>
> Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking
> to create a sound editor that has these features?
>

Or use Vocalign software, now available as a Pro Tools plug in.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 3:47:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris,

> What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually match
the peaks. <

I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional audio
track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting the
replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. When I'm done I
mute the original audio and let the replacement play. Of course, Sound Forge
is a single-track audio editor, so it can't do that. Not that you need Vegas
Video or a dedicated video editor program either. Several audio multi-track
programs can view video and accommodate multiple audio tracks. For example,
Sonar does this.

--Ethan
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 5:29:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <yIqdnapjs7Wp_HbfRVn-pA@rogers.com> rhollett@nl.rogers.com writes:

> I think DP has this feature, called vocalyn(sp)

VocALign is what I was thinking of, I think.
http://tinyurl.com/dlj3a


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 8:45:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <RPSdneFwKY_cPHbfRVn-pQ@giganews.com> "Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> writes:

> I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional audio
> track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting the
> replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. When I'm done I
> mute the original audio and let the replacement play.

I think that what the original poster was dreaming about was to have
the two tracks on screen right on top of each other rather than
adjacent. That might make alignment easier, it might make it more
difficult. I think your approach would work fine, once you get into
the tedium of the job.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
July 30, 2005 10:24:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 30 Jul 2005 16:45:26 -0400, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>I think that what the original poster was dreaming about was to have
>the two tracks on screen right on top of each other rather than
>adjacent.

Vegas will also do it that way.
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 10:47:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ty Ford" <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6vydnSjtSuBaEnbfRVn-ow@comcast.com...
>
> Or use Vocalign software, now available as a Pro Tools plug in.
>

There's a standard Window's version too that will work with any audio
software.
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 2:32:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1122744750k@trad...
>
> In article <RPSdneFwKY_cPHbfRVn-pQ@giganews.com> "Ethan Winer" <ethanw at
> ethanwiner dot com> writes:
>
>> I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional
>> audio
>> track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced, splitting
>> the
>> replacement track as needed to keep each section in sync. When I'm done I
>> mute the original audio and let the replacement play.
>
> I think that what the original poster was dreaming about was to have
> the two tracks on screen right on top of each other rather than
> adjacent. That might make alignment easier, it might make it more
> difficult. I think your approach would work fine, once you get into
> the tedium of the job.
>
>

Tedium is inherent in many audio editing tasks. Some things just can't be
automated --- at least not now or in the foreseeable future. (Of course,
Auto-tune wasn't foreseeable, either ;-))

Steve King
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 3:03:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:47:34 -0400, Ricky Hunt wrote
(in article <aXPGe.199104$x96.31860@attbi_s72>):

> "Ty Ford" <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:6vydnSjtSuBaEnbfRVn-ow@comcast.com...
>>
>> Or use Vocalign software, now available as a Pro Tools plug in.
>>
>
> There's a standard Window's version too that will work with any audio
> software.
>
>

I'm also remembering an Australian-based DAW system that did show overlapping
files on one track. Too many AES and NAB shows back. I don't know if it's
still around.

Also, I know you could see the layers "in the holes" but am not sure if you
could see the waveforms on top of each other.

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 3:06:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Any approach that involves splitting the audio up into snippets won't
work. This is a musical performance - a lip sync. As far as I can tell,
the original playback machine used for the performance had speed
issues. Not major ones, but enough to cause the sync to vary enough to
be noticable. Vegas sounds interesting if it can do the overlay (I used
Canopus' Edius)...but what I really need is the "squash and stretch"
feature to allow me to compensate for the speed variations in the
original playback.
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 9:03:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <CJGdnZmiVcJrc3HfRVn-gw@comcast.com> steveSPAMBLOCK@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net writes:

> Tedium is inherent in many audio editing tasks. Some things just can't be
> automated --- at least not now or in the foreseeable future.

That's why we try to get it right the first time.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 9:03:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1122833200.627056.231640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> post2rame@gmail.com writes:

> Any approach that involves splitting the audio up into snippets won't
> work. This is a musical performance - a lip sync. As far as I can tell,
> the original playback machine used for the performance had speed
> issues. Not major ones, but enough to cause the sync to vary enough to
> be noticable.

Maybe it's time to edit the video rather than the audio. Put up a
picture of something else besides the mouth when the sync is too far
off. If you have to deal with the audio, I hope the person who decided
that there was no need to sync up the video and audio when shooting
has deep pockets (and you're the recipient).




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 3:47:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 29 Jul 2005 22:51:12 -0700, Chris W wrote:

>I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
>can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the
>feature I need.
>
>I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better
>audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source
>in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the
>length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original
>track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations
>in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance).

You may use the multitrack mode of Adobe's Audition for that. You
can cut into a pair of tracks and move the parts around on the time
line. Else you can delete small parts of a clip to shift the remainder
to earlier times or insert some silence to shift to later times.
You can strech or shrink a track to fit into a given time interval as
well. Optionally the pitch can be preserved.

In edit mode you can overlay the waveform display with the video and
check for sync. Usually Adobe software can be downloaded and tested
for 20...30 days with full functionality.

Norbert
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 2:05:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris W <post2rame@gmail.com> wrote:
>Any approach that involves splitting the audio up into snippets won't
>work. This is a musical performance - a lip sync. As far as I can tell,
>the original playback machine used for the performance had speed
>issues. Not major ones, but enough to cause the sync to vary enough to
>be noticable. Vegas sounds interesting if it can do the overlay (I used
>Canopus' Edius)...but what I really need is the "squash and stretch"
>feature to allow me to compensate for the speed variations in the
>original playback.

Why won't cutting and pasting work? I used to do this sort of thing
all the time with magfilm... cut out 1/4 frame here, cut out a 1/4 frame
there. If you do the cuts between the words and make them small enough
it can be quite seamless.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 3:37:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Maybe it's time to edit the video rather than the audio. Put up a picture
of something else besides the mouth when the sync is too far off. <

Excellent idea.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:19:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:05:56 +0200, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Chris W <post2rame@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Any approach that involves splitting the audio up into snippets won't
>>work. This is a musical performance - a lip sync. As far as I can tell,
>>...but what I really need is the "squash and stretch"
>>feature to allow me to compensate for the speed variations in the
>>original playback.
>
> Why won't cutting and pasting work? I used to do this sort of thing all
> the time with magfilm... cut out 1/4 frame here, cut out a 1/4 frame
> there. If you do the cuts between the words and make them small enough
> it can be quite seamless.

I understand the problem. I make video's of pianomusic. To get a good
quality for the sound, I replace the sound of the camcorder sond from my
MD recorder. For short video's there is no problem, for longer pieces,
e.g. Modest Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition (32 minutes) on the
website audio and video get out of sync. Not much, but with a piano you
don't need much. As it is one piece splitting etc of audio or video will
be audible or visible. Stretching would be better.

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
August 1, 2005 11:20:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris W ha scritto:
> I have a problem that my current audio editing software, Sound Forge,
> can't seem to handle, and hope there is some software that has the
> feature I need.
>
> I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a better
> audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the new source
> in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync. Even if I change the
> length of the new audio to match the start and end of the original
> track, the sync goes in and out. Obviously, there were speed variations
> in the original audio playback (the clip is a lip-sync performance).
>
> What I need is an editing program that will allow me to overlay one
> waveform's graphical representation over another's, so I can visually
> match the peaks. In animation, this feature is termed "onion-skinning",
> after the thin paper used for tracing. Ideally, the program would also
> allow one to stretch time visually - perhaps by overlaying a set of
> tick marks that would represent minutes/seconds/frames and would allow
> the user to select and drag them to "squash and stretch" the time. I
> know that there is a lot of audio data to manipulate, but for my
> purposes, real-time playback is not needed. I could do all this
> visually and then "render" the audio. Or possibly a low quality audio
> version (8 bit for instance) could be used as a "proxy".
>
> Anything like this exist? Or if not, are there any programmers looking
> to create a sound editor that has these features?
>
You may try cubase. You can open two adiacent tracks, one with the new
sound and the other with the old one.
Cubase has a feature to detect peaks and is capable to place a marker on
it.
Then you simply slice the new audio according to markers and move it to
the corresponding markers on the old track.

But before you start, try to understand if one of the 2 tracks has been
stretched. Then the best solution will be adjust the new track lenght to
match the old track lenght, using the "stretch" feature present on many
audio software.
If not stretched, use cubase

bye
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:37:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chris W" <post2rame@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm in the middle of a video archiving project, and have found a
> better audio source for one of the video clips. But when I lay the
> new source in by syncing the start, it goes out of sync.


Try VocAlign. I've only used it on speech so I don't know how well it
will handle the greater demands of music, but it would be fun to try
anyway.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:37:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot com> wrote:
>
> I do this all the time in Vegas Video by simply adding an additional
> audio track and lining it up with the original audio to be replaced,
> splitting the replacement track as needed to keep each section in
> sync.



Fine for dialog, not so much for music.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
!