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Whats the best way to fit a .wav file to midi file?

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August 11, 2005 2:55:28 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

I'm doing a transcription of an old big band recording using Cakewalk Pro
Audio 8. My plan is to have the wave file at the top and then piece together
the band below it, following along with the recording. I want to make the
wave file fit fairly precisely into the measures so I don't have to futz
with the midi tracks later to make them line up. Tape decks being what they
are and the original performance being done by humans, after a while it
drifts off from the metronome beat.

A way I've come up with is to find a tempo that fits for as long as
possible, paste in the wave file and about a bar before it starts to drift
noticeably, split the file, cut the portion of the file from that point on,
insert a tempo change that fits - probably only a click or so one way or the
other is all that's needed - repaste, and continue this process to the end
of the recording.

Is there a more elegant way of doing it than this? My source for the
recording is an analog tape deck.

Thanks for all input.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 4:21:22 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:55:28 GMT, "Doc" <docsavage20@xhotmail.com>
wrote:

>I'm doing a transcription of an old big band recording using Cakewalk Pro
>Audio 8. My plan is to have the wave file at the top and then piece together
>the band below it, following along with the recording. I want to make the
>wave file fit fairly precisely into the measures so I don't have to futz
>with the midi tracks later to make them line up. Tape decks being what they
>are and the original performance being done by humans, after a while it
>drifts off from the metronome beat.
>
>A way I've come up with is to find a tempo that fits for as long as
>possible, paste in the wave file and about a bar before it starts to drift
>noticeably, split the file, cut the portion of the file from that point on,
>insert a tempo change that fits - probably only a click or so one way or the
>other is all that's needed - repaste, and continue this process to the end
>of the recording.
>
>Is there a more elegant way of doing it than this? My source for the
>recording is an analog tape deck.

The better MIDI/audio sequencers have a tempo map function. But
question whether you NEED a tempo map. Jazz rhythms, above all, are
better played than step-entered. Can't you play the parts in?
Ignore bars and beats.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
August 11, 2005 6:09:20 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
news:0r2lf19pg2cletpcrfpf6k2ds9pdf3umbc@4ax.com...

> The better MIDI/audio sequencers have a tempo map function. But
> question whether you NEED a tempo map. Jazz rhythms, above all, are
> better played than step-entered. Can't you play the parts in?
> Ignore bars and beats.

There are several reasons this won't work. To begin with, when I get done, I
want to be able to print out the individual parts to potentially be played
by a live band.

Other issues are that my keyboard skills aren't nearly good enough to play
this stuff real time, but even if they were, I'm having to pick the parts
out, often one note at a time.
Related resources
August 11, 2005 6:19:07 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

"studiorat" <daveslevin@02.ie> wrote in message
news:1123719953.848914.322400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> The most elegant way is probably to change the tempo to suit the song
> by playing in a conductor track.

What is a conductor track and how do you create/use it?
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 12:11:24 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

If you want
You could try doing what I do
Find a close tempo of the song and enter that.
Now to get it exact with all the changing tempo-dynamics:
Make sure you have project options/metronome enabled for playback-or you can
just paste in quarter notes that will play in a midi trak-use this beat to
sync to your audio trak.
Then go to view/tempo-
loop about 4 measures-
select the draw tool and strategically draw in the tempo and correct where
it drifts until it's on-continue til you're done and you'll have it exact.
This is a tedious procedure but "exract timing" and any other ideas thrown
at me either don't work because I'm not doing it right or it could be this
dumb computer I have.
good luck
jeff

"Doc" <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kryKe.3707$RZ2.250@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
> news:0r2lf19pg2cletpcrfpf6k2ds9pdf3umbc@4ax.com...
>
>> The better MIDI/audio sequencers have a tempo map function. But
>> question whether you NEED a tempo map. Jazz rhythms, above all, are
>> better played than step-entered. Can't you play the parts in?
>> Ignore bars and beats.
>
> There are several reasons this won't work. To begin with, when I get done,
> I
> want to be able to print out the individual parts to potentially be played
> by a live band.
>
> Other issues are that my keyboard skills aren't nearly good enough to play
> this stuff real time, but even if they were, I'm having to pick the parts
> out, often one note at a time.
>
>
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 1:17:32 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

On 10 Aug 2005 17:25:53 -0700, "studiorat" <daveslevin@02.ie> wrote:

>We did that once for some old John McCormac recordings.
>He's an Irish Temor, propably done straight to disc.

Do you think he REALLY sang through his nose like that? Or was he
giving his full concert-hall volume into a recording horn and
distorting somehow? I've never understood how a singer who made such
a horrible sound was so popular :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 1:20:14 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:09:20 GMT, "Doc" <docsavage20@xhotmail.com>
wrote:

>> The better MIDI/audio sequencers have a tempo map function. But
>> question whether you NEED a tempo map. Jazz rhythms, above all, are
>> better played than step-entered. Can't you play the parts in?
>> Ignore bars and beats.
>
>There are several reasons this won't work. To begin with, when I get done, I
>want to be able to print out the individual parts to potentially be played
>by a live band.
>
>Other issues are that my keyboard skills aren't nearly good enough to play
>this stuff real time, but even if they were, I'm having to pick the parts
>out, often one note at a time.

Well, OK. But I think you'd be better off developing your musical
skills than your computer skills :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 1:25:29 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:11:24 GMT, "jeff loven" <jloven@mn.rr.com>
wrote:

>If you want
>You could try doing what I do
>Find a close tempo of the song and enter that.
>Now to get it exact with all the changing tempo-dynamics:
>Make sure you have project options/metronome enabled for playback-or you can
>just paste in quarter notes that will play in a midi trak-use this beat to
>sync to your audio trak.
>Then go to view/tempo-
>loop about 4 measures-
>select the draw tool and strategically draw in the tempo and correct where
>it drifts until it's on-continue til you're done and you'll have it exact.
>This is a tedious procedure but "exract timing" and any other ideas thrown
>at me either don't work because I'm not doing it right or it could be this
>dumb computer I have.

And if you DO follow the tempo-track route, remember to turn it off ,
at least in the sections with no intended speed changes, before mixing
the "performance" recording. Lurching tempos are not conducive to a
good groove.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 5:14:56 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

On 8/10/05 6:55 PM, in article
ABvKe.3834$Je.1696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net, "Doc"
<docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm doing a transcription of an old big band recording using Cakewalk Pro
> Audio 8. My plan is to have the wave file at the top and then piece together
> the band below it, following along with the recording. I want to make the
> wave file fit fairly precisely into the measures so I don't have to futz
> with the midi tracks later to make them line up. Tape decks being what they
> are and the original performance being done by humans, after a while it
> drifts off from the metronome beat.
>
> A way I've come up with is to find a tempo that fits for as long as
> possible, paste in the wave file and about a bar before it starts to drift
> noticeably, split the file, cut the portion of the file from that point on,
> insert a tempo change that fits - probably only a click or so one way or the
> other is all that's needed - repaste, and continue this process to the end
> of the recording.
>
> Is there a more elegant way of doing it than this? My source for the
> recording is an analog tape deck.
>
> Thanks for all input.
>
>
I do this all the time, particularly on a long-term project.
SMPTE and MIDI time Code are my friends.
Earlier an 8-track analog deck and more recently a TASCAm DA88 system locked
to (in my case) either SPMTE-TRACK PLATINUM on an ATARI ST or FREESTYLE on
the Macs. I just have a bunch of songs working on the tape-based system and
still use it out of confort and habit, luddite that I am... PERFORMER does
all this inside the computer with a digital audio file and would work. As to
tempo, most of the decent MIDI sequencers have a tempo-match feature where
you can tap in a beat along with the guide recording and the system then
makes a tempo-map that adjusts MIDI tempo from moment to moment along with
the normal variations in the musical performance. It's pretty seamless and
easier than fighting through it the way you're doing now.
August 11, 2005 7:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
news:o d2mf15jq3ed7p6g1kum46pp0lpcfiod6h@4ax.com...

> Well, OK. But I think you'd be better off developing your musical
> skills than your computer skills :-)

Can you listen to a 1940's recording and pick out and play all parts with
correct harmony and in correct voicing in real time in one shot? I think
you'd be the only person on the planet who can, and no doubt have a few
extra hands as well. Remember, I'm doing everything including drums and
piano.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 7:48:15 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

Doc <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote:
>"Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
>news:o d2mf15jq3ed7p6g1kum46pp0lpcfiod6h@4ax.com...
>
>> Well, OK. But I think you'd be better off developing your musical
>> skills than your computer skills :-)
>
>Can you listen to a 1940's recording and pick out and play all parts with
>correct harmony and in correct voicing in real time in one shot? I think
>you'd be the only person on the planet who can, and no doubt have a few
>extra hands as well. Remember, I'm doing everything including drums and
>piano.

I can't, but Fletcher Henderson could. He's dead now, so you can't hire
him, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
August 11, 2005 9:20:28 PM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

Are you planning on presenting the piece with the two versions mixed
together? , or are you just putting the wav file at the top for your own
benefit whilst constructing it?

When I used to do this, I just took the average tempo and created the parts
as I heard them. I would have the wav file imported for ease in cueing, and
go back and forth between the two for the neccessary parts. Any tempo
changes that are needed in the score to add feeling, can be typed directly
onto the score when formatting the printed pages. The rest is left to the
conductor of the band to follow in his own way. If any of the band members
needed to hear the original track I'd give them a copy of it together with a
seperate recording of the MIDI version. They can then follow the score with
either, depending on what is easiest for them.

I didn't find any real need for matching the tempos exactly. It would be
more bother than it's worth.
--
Lynn
Wobbly Music
"Supporting the Mature Artist"
=============================
http://www.wobblymusic.net
Latest Release... "Friends" by John McKeon
Order your copy now and get 2 FREE bonus tracks!
http://www.johnmckeon.wobblymusic.net


"Doc" <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ABvKe.3834$Je.1696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I'm doing a transcription of an old big band recording using Cakewalk Pro
> Audio 8. My plan is to have the wave file at the top and then piece
> together
> the band below it, following along with the recording. I want to make the
> wave file fit fairly precisely into the measures so I don't have to futz
> with the midi tracks later to make them line up. Tape decks being what
> they
> are and the original performance being done by humans, after a while it
> drifts off from the metronome beat.
>
> A way I've come up with is to find a tempo that fits for as long as
> possible, paste in the wave file and about a bar before it starts to drift
> noticeably, split the file, cut the portion of the file from that point
> on,
> insert a tempo change that fits - probably only a click or so one way or
> the
> other is all that's needed - repaste, and continue this process to the end
> of the recording.
>
> Is there a more elegant way of doing it than this? My source for the
> recording is an analog tape deck.
>
> Thanks for all input.
>
>
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 1:28:37 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:06:39 GMT, "Doc" <docsavage20@xhotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Can you listen to a 1940's recording and pick out and play all parts with
>correct harmony and in correct voicing in real time in one shot? I think
>you'd be the only person on the planet who can, and no doubt have a few
>extra hands as well. Remember, I'm doing everything including drums and
>piano.

Of course not. And I don't recall suggesting you did!

But I can listen to it and transcribe the score. Then re-build the
arrangement, playing each instrument separately. I usually find it
is MUCH easier to play the phrasing I want than to step-enter then
edit away the mechanical feel.

Sometimes I play along with the original. One instrument at a time,
of course, and in short sections with lots of trial-and-error. But
less error as skills develop.

If, ultimately, you decide a quantised drum track, say, would improve
the performance, fine. Start over from that basis. Now you have the
other parts written down (or in your head) you can easily reproduce
them.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
August 12, 2005 4:14:47 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
news:4rcnf19917s9vk74cbuvghc0vjpfu53863@4ax.com...

> Sometimes I play along with the original. One instrument at a time,
> of course, and in short sections with lots of trial-and-error. But
> less error as skills develop.
>
> If, ultimately, you decide a quantised drum track, say, would improve
> the performance, fine. Start over from that basis. Now you have the
> other parts written down (or in your head) you can easily reproduce
> them.

Definitely doing a lot of trial and error. By the way, going through this
process *is* improving my overall skills. First time I've ever transcriped a
complete big band arrangement.

Ultimately I want a score I can print out, so the notes have to be correct
as to time value. It's understood among band members that you swing the
chart.

Eventually I also plan to record this with myself playing all the trumpet
parts and using a homemade Soundfont bank with good samples, certain effects
nuanced in - note bends etc. - should sound pretty close to the real deal.
August 12, 2005 4:20:37 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

"Lynn" <lynnmonkVIRUSFREE@btclick.com> wrote in message
news:D dg1cs$578$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Are you planning on presenting the piece with the two versions mixed
> together? , or are you just putting the wav file at the top for your own
> benefit whilst constructing it?

For my own benefit.


> I didn't find any real need for matching the tempos exactly. It would be
> more bother than it's worth.

Matching them up makes it easier to hear what I'm replicating. Then I can
play them together or separately to hear how they compare. Then, when I'm
done, I have an essentially finished score I can print.
August 13, 2005 11:04:56 AM

Archived from groups: cakewalk.audio,cakewalk.beginners,rec.audio.pro,comp.music.midi (More info?)

> Matching them up makes it easier to hear what I'm replicating. Then I can
> play them together or separately to hear how they compare. Then, when I'm
> done, I have an essentially finished score I can print.

Then probably the quickest way (if your software has a "tempo record"
function) is to tap the beat in whilst listening to the track. This will
record the "tempo map" of the original recording. You can then quantize your
midi parts to the tempo map.
--
Lynn
Wobbly Music
"Supporting the Mature Artist"
=============================
http://www.wobblymusic.net
Latest Release... "Friends" by John McKeon
Order your copy now and get 2 FREE bonus tracks!
http://www.johnmckeon.wobblymusic.net

"Doc" <docsavage20@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:p XRKe.4296$RZ2.4031@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Lynn" <lynnmonkVIRUSFREE@btclick.com> wrote in message
> news:D dg1cs$578$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Are you planning on presenting the piece with the two versions mixed
>> together? , or are you just putting the wav file at the top for your own
>> benefit whilst constructing it?
>
> For my own benefit.
>
>
>> I didn't find any real need for matching the tempos exactly. It would be
>> more bother than it's worth.
>
> Matching them up makes it easier to hear what I'm replicating. Then I can
> play them together or separately to hear how they compare. Then, when I'm
> done, I have an essentially finished score I can print.
>
>
!