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question regarding '24 bit' recording

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August 12, 2005 1:11:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

i have an m-audio audiophile 24/96 soundcard, and just recently bought a
budget but well talked about mic and preamp. ive been using cool edit
pro to record. i saw a thread in here once where people were discussing
wdm and asio driver stuff, and saying something about apps not being
able to utilize anything over 16 bit unless they were 'aware' of wdm or
whatever.
im using Win XP.
ive just downloaded the latest drivers for the audiophile card and
installed those.
my question is, will my recordings in cool edit pro actually be in 24
bit, or at least as close to 24 bit as the card can come? or do i need
to find some other app to use to do the recording, or download some
other driver(s)?

second question: i really dont know much about this so this might seem
like a silly question, but do the lengths of cables make much of a
difference in sound quality? i have a 20ft mic cable going into a preamp
with a 6ft cable going from that to my pc. would it be better to have
less feet of cables in there for recording or does it matter?

More about : question bit recording

Anonymous
August 12, 2005 2:10:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"MisterE" <wisecup@shmadelphia.net> wrote in message
news:s_SdnWuuBayGa2bfRVn-gg@adelphia.com

> i have an m-audio audiophile 24/96 soundcard, and just
> recently bought a budget but well talked about mic and
> preamp. ive been using cool edit pro to record. i saw a
> thread in here once where people were discussing wdm and
> asio driver stuff, and saying something about apps not
> being able to utilize anything over 16 bit unless they
> were 'aware' of wdm or whatever.

Cool Edit is aware of WDM.

Cool Edit will exploit the 24 bit features of audio
interfaces if they have any.

> I'm using Win XP.
> ive just downloaded the latest drivers for the audiophile
> card and installed those.

> my question is, will my recordings in cool edit pro
> actually be in 24 bit, or at least as close to 24 bit as
> the card can come?

More like as close to 24 bit as the card will come, since
the AP 2496 isn't even close to 24 bit. It is even a tad shy
of 16 bits.

> or do i need to find some other app to
> use to do the recording, or download some other driver(s)?

Cool Edit will do the job.

> second question: i really dont know much about this so
> this might seem like a silly question, but do the lengths
> of cables make much of a difference in sound quality?

Not the lengths most of us work with.

> I have a 20ft mic cable going into a preamp with a 6ft
> cable going from that to my pc. would it be better to
> have less feet of cables in there for recording or does
> it matter?

Surely you jest. The most likely source of problems that are
in some sense related to cables is ground loops.
August 12, 2005 2:53:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Your card is capable of 24 bit recording with the M Audio drivers. No idea
about Cool Edit Pro.

Don't worry about the length of your mic cable. You might want to avoid
running it alongside power cables, but you'll certainly not need to worry
about signal degradation at those kinds of lengths.




"MisterE" <wisecup@shmadelphia.net> wrote in message
news:s_SdnWuuBayGa2bfRVn-gg@adelphia.com...
>i have an m-audio audiophile 24/96 soundcard, and just recently bought a
>budget but well talked about mic and preamp. ive been using cool edit pro
>to record. i saw a thread in here once where people were discussing wdm and
>asio driver stuff, and saying something about apps not being able to
>utilize anything over 16 bit unless they were 'aware' of wdm or whatever.
> im using Win XP.
> ive just downloaded the latest drivers for the audiophile card and
> installed those.
> my question is, will my recordings in cool edit pro actually be in 24 bit,
> or at least as close to 24 bit as the card can come? or do i need to find
> some other app to use to do the recording, or download some other
> driver(s)?
>
> second question: i really dont know much about this so this might seem
> like a silly question, but do the lengths of cables make much of a
> difference in sound quality? i have a 20ft mic cable going into a preamp
> with a 6ft cable going from that to my pc. would it be better to have less
> feet of cables in there for recording or does it matter?
Related resources
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:31:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> second question: i really dont know much about this so this might seem
> like a silly question, but do the lengths of cables make much of a
> difference in sound quality? i have a 20ft mic cable going into a preamp
> with a 6ft cable going from that to my pc. would it be better to have less
> feet of cables in there for recording or does it matter?

I don't have a textbook answer but in my 2cents worth of experience the
quality of a cable carrying an analog signal can make a huge difference.
Length isn't as immediately profound as quality but it can weaken a signal
and the longer it is the more potential it has to pick-up stray
signals(noise). Try and keep it out of the path of your ac wires.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:31:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"yrret" <bat@ahell.com> wrote in message
news:D ZSKe.195825$%K2.38060@pd7tw1no...
>
>
> > second question: i really dont know much about this so this might seem
> > like a silly question, but do the lengths of cables make much of a
> > difference in sound quality? i have a 20ft mic cable going into a preamp
> > with a 6ft cable going from that to my pc. would it be better to have
less
> > feet of cables in there for recording or does it matter?
>
> I don't have a textbook answer but in my 2cents worth of experience the
> quality of a cable carrying an analog signal can make a huge difference.
> Length isn't as immediately profound as quality but it can weaken a signal
> and the longer it is the more potential it has to pick-up stray
> signals(noise). Try and keep it out of the path of your ac wires.

This really isn't that true with balanced cables. 20 feet of mic cable is
nothing, unless you were to wrap it around an electric motor or something.

Sean
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 2:02:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <s_SdnWuuBayGa2bfRVn-gg@adelphia.com> wisecup@shmadelphia.net writes:

> i have an m-audio audiophile 24/96 soundcard, and just recently bought a
> budget but well talked about mic and preamp. ive been using cool edit
> pro to record.

> im using Win XP.
> ive just downloaded the latest drivers for the audiophile card and
> installed those.
> my question is, will my recordings in cool edit pro actually be in 24
> bit, or at least as close to 24 bit as the card can come?

Yes, if you set Cool Edit Pro to record in 24-bit resolution. It may
default to that, or it may default to 16-bit. I don't remember. But
there's a setting, and that's what it will be. Cool Edit and Windows
will recognize the 24-bit capability of your driver and use it if it's
selected.

Cool Edit Pro, at least the old versionI have, stores 24-bit
recordings as two 16-bit chunk (or maybe that's four 8-bit bytes) for
each sample rather than one 24-bit chunk. If you record five minutes
at 16-bit, then record five minutes at 24-bit, and compare the file
sizes, you'll find that the 24-bit one is twice the size, rather than
1.5 times the size as you'd expect, of the 16-bit file. Be conscious
of this if your disk space is somewhat limited.

> do the lengths of cables make much of a
> difference in sound quality? i have a 20ft mic cable going into a preamp
> with a 6ft cable going from that to my pc. would it be better to have
> less feet of cables in there for recording or does it matter?

It doesn't matter, assuming you have good (as in "not broken" as
opposed to "overpriced") cables. Your mic cables should be balanced
(two conductors plus the shield) and you won't run into any
degradation until you start getting up over a couple of hundred feet.
If the cable going to your computer is unbalanced (like a guitar
cable), it's more susceptible to picking up hum and other
electromagnetic interference from electronic devices such as your
computer and monitor, but the difference between 6 feet and 3 feet is
insignificant.

If you have a hum or buzz problem that goes away when you unplug that
cable from the computer interface end, and changes as you unplug it
from the mic preamp and wave it around the room, actually a longer
cable that you can route away from the source of the EMI field might
actually be better. Don't worry about it until you know if you have a
problem or not.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 2:26:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1123845933k@trad...
>
> In article <s_SdnWuuBayGa2bfRVn-gg@adelphia.com> wisecup@shmadelphia.net
> writes:
>
>> i have an m-audio audiophile 24/96 soundcard, and just recently bought a
>> budget but well talked about mic and preamp. ive been using cool edit
>> pro to record.
>
>> im using Win XP.
>> ive just downloaded the latest drivers for the audiophile card and
>> installed those.
>> my question is, will my recordings in cool edit pro actually be in 24
>> bit, or at least as close to 24 bit as the card can come?
>
> Yes, if you set Cool Edit Pro to record in 24-bit resolution. It may
> default to that, or it may default to 16-bit. I don't remember. But
> there's a setting, and that's what it will be. Cool Edit and Windows
> will recognize the 24-bit capability of your driver and use it if it's
> selected.
>

Actually, I think you set Cool Edit to record in 32-bit mode and it takes
the 24-bit data coming from the card and coverts it to 32-bit
floating-point, retaining all 24-bits of information. When you process in
Cool Edit in 32-bit mode, you can occasionally go over 0dbFS and not lose
the data above 0dbFS; it will not clip the data...except for when playing
it; it has to play it in 24-bit format in order for the card to understand
it.

The data is retained in the floating-point information, and you can later
adjust the amplitude (read attenuate the signal) so that all of the data
does not excede the 0dbFS threshold. You basically "get back" all of the
data that previously was above 0dbFS.

In fixed-point 24-bit systems, you would "clip" anything that goes above
0dbFS, thereby losing the information.

Mike P.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 2:45:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael Putrino" <putrino@juno.com> wrote in message
news:D dif3j$i20$1@news01.intel.com...
>
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:znr1123845933k@trad...
>>
>> In article <s_SdnWuuBayGa2bfRVn-gg@adelphia.com> wisecup@shmadelphia.net
>> writes:
>>
>>> i have an m-audio audiophile 24/96 soundcard, and just recently bought a
>>> budget but well talked about mic and preamp. ive been using cool edit
>>> pro to record.
>>
>>> im using Win XP.
>>> ive just downloaded the latest drivers for the audiophile card and
>>> installed those.
>>> my question is, will my recordings in cool edit pro actually be in 24
>>> bit, or at least as close to 24 bit as the card can come?
>>
>> Yes, if you set Cool Edit Pro to record in 24-bit resolution. It may
>> default to that, or it may default to 16-bit. I don't remember. But
>> there's a setting, and that's what it will be. Cool Edit and Windows
>> will recognize the 24-bit capability of your driver and use it if it's
>> selected.
>>
>
> Actually, I think you set Cool Edit to record in 32-bit mode and it takes
> the 24-bit data coming from the card and coverts it to 32-bit
> floating-point, retaining all 24-bits of information. When you process in
> Cool Edit in 32-bit mode, you can occasionally go over 0dbFS and not lose
> the data above 0dbFS; it will not clip the data...except for when playing
> it; it has to play it in 24-bit format in order for the card to understand
> it.
>
> The data is retained in the floating-point information, and you can later
> adjust the amplitude (read attenuate the signal) so that all of the data
> does not excede the 0dbFS threshold. You basically "get back" all of the
> data that previously was above 0dbFS.
>
> In fixed-point 24-bit systems, you would "clip" anything that goes above
> 0dbFS, thereby losing the information.
>
> Mike P.
>

Actually, after attenuation, you don't "get back" all of the data. You get a
version that has been multiplied by the attenuating value... ;-)

Mike P.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:24:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob <b.dewever@amc.uva.nl> wrote:
>but at what length *will* it start to matter (using reasonably good cables)?
>10m? 100m?

When you get into the 100m range you need to start worrying about mike
level signals. For line level signals, it's more like 5,000m before
you need to start worrying about cable issues.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 6:31:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"More like as close to 24 bit as the card will come, since
the AP 2496 isn't even close to 24 bit. It is even a tad shy
of 16 bits. "

Are you making an accusation of fraud here, or did I miss something
about your statement?
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 7:39:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <ddif3j$i20$1@news01.intel.com> putrino@juno.com writes:

> Actually, I think you set Cool Edit to record in 32-bit mode and it takes
> the 24-bit data coming from the card and coverts it to 32-bit
> floating-point

Whatever. It's been a long time since I've used the program. I'll bet
that if the nomencalture is still this way, it's confusing to a lot of
users, particularly those who don't read the manual.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 7:39:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1123864161k@trad...
>
> In article <ddif3j$i20$1@news01.intel.com> putrino@juno.com writes:
>
>> Actually, I think you set Cool Edit to record in 32-bit mode and it takes
>> the 24-bit data coming from the card and coverts it to 32-bit
>> floating-point
>
> Whatever. It's been a long time since I've used the program. I'll bet
> that if the nomencalture is still this way, it's confusing to a lot of
> users, particularly those who don't read the manual.
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Shame on them, if they don't read the manual... ;-)
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 1:16:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob wrote:
> but at what length *will* it start to matter (using reasonably good cables)?
> 10m? 100m?

Any properly designed mic and preamp with balanced wiring and correctly
wired connectors should have no trouble at 100m, further if there are no
strong interference sources around, though at some point you need to
consider the HF loss caused by lumped cable capacitance and mic source
impedance.

--
Anahata
anahata@treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 10:29:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"James Of Tucson" <james0tucson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123882296.660051.198760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

> "More like as close to 24 bit as the card will come, since
> the AP 2496 isn't even close to 24 bit. It is even a tad
> shy of 16 bits. "

> Are you making an accusation of fraud here, or did I miss
> something about your statement?

I'm speaking to accepted industry conventions.

First off, there are basically no such things as true 24 bit
converters or computer audio interfaces, if you define 24
bits as meaning 24 bit resolution.

24 bit resolution implies 144 dB dynamic range, and 144 dB
dynamic rnage just doesn't exist in the analog world, except
maybe in some tank of helium in some lab someplace.

The highest resolution in the normal work-a-day world of
audio is about 130 dB dynamic range.

The highest resolution digital <-> analog converters fall a
little short of that, maybe 120-122 dB.

The current accepted meaning of a 24 bit converters or audio
interface is one that processes 24 bit data words.

In the past, even that seemingly inflated meaning was
further stretched to include converters that have data paths
24 bits wide someplace in their guts, but still had only 16
bit data going in or out.

My recollection is that the AP2496 has about 90 dB dynamic
range, unweighted, That corresponds to about 15 bit
resolution. The new AP24192 has about 100 dB unweighted
dynamic range, which corresponds to slightly more than 16
bit resolution. The highest dynamic range audio interfaces
around, include the LynxTWO with about 120 dB dynamic range.

You get what you pay for, and the AP2496 is a low-cost audio
interface, more consumer than pro. However, its just fine
for digitizing vinyl because vinyl usually has less than 70
dB dynamic range.
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 5:49:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael Putrino" <putrino@juno.com> wrote in message
news:D dif3j$i20$1@news01.intel.com...
>
> Actually, I think you set Cool Edit to record in 32-bit mode and it takes
> the 24-bit data coming from the card and coverts it to 32-bit
> floating-point, retaining all 24-bits of information. When you process in
> Cool Edit in 32-bit mode, you can occasionally go over 0dbFS and not lose
> the data above 0dbFS; it will not clip the data...except for when playing
> it; it has to play it in 24-bit format in order for the card to understand

It's nice for mixdowns because you can go wildy over range and never clip.
You still have to reduce the volume of the final mix to get it play without
clipping, but you don't have to go and adjust the volume for each track and
remix
when this happens.

Sean
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 6:41:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sean Conolly" <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote in
news:AnqLe.7813$Rm3.5394@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

> "Michael Putrino" <putrino@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:D dif3j$i20$1@news01.intel.com...
>>
>> Actually, I think you set Cool Edit to record in 32-bit mode and it
>> takes the 24-bit data coming from the card and coverts it to 32-bit
>> floating-point, retaining all 24-bits of information. When you
>> process in Cool Edit in 32-bit mode, you can occasionally go over
>> 0dbFS and not lose the data above 0dbFS; it will not clip the
>> data...except for when playing it; it has to play it in 24-bit format
>> in order for the card to understand
>
> It's nice for mixdowns because you can go wildy over range and never
> clip. You still have to reduce the volume of the final mix to get it
> play without clipping, but you don't have to go and adjust the volume
> for each track and remix
> when this happens.

More importantly, at least for me, it uses almost ridiculous mathematical
precision while performing complicated DSP like convolution reverb. DSP in
32 bit has an audible advantage over DSP in 16 bit. As I have Audition, I
can't compare it to 24 bit.
August 15, 2005 12:46:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

wow!.....I''ll be moving my mice preamps to the control room (mice-->preamp
will be only 25 m then....)...much easier for me. Tnx for reassuring this is
ok.
Regards,
Bob

"anahata" <anahata@reply-to.address> schreef in bericht
news:42fd03ad$0$17492$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> Bob wrote:
> > but at what length *will* it start to matter (using reasonably good
cables)?
> > 10m? 100m?
>
> Any properly designed mic and preamp with balanced wiring and correctly
> wired connectors should have no trouble at 100m, further if there are no
> strong interference sources around, though at some point you need to
> consider the HF loss caused by lumped cable capacitance and mic source
> impedance.
>
> --
> Anahata
> anahata@treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
> Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 3:45:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"James Of Tucson" <james0tucson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123882296.660051.198760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> "More like as close to 24 bit as the card will come, since
> the AP 2496 isn't even close to 24 bit. It is even a tad shy
> of 16 bits. "
>
> Are you making an accusation of fraud here, or did I miss something
> about your statement?

M-Audio says the A-weighted dynamic range of the Audiophile 2496 inputs is
100.4dB.

Tim
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 3:45:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Tim Martin" <tim2718281@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:6HzUe.6252$oq4.2160@newsfe5-win.ntli.net
> "James Of Tucson" <james0tucson@gmail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:1123882296.660051.198760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> "More like as close to 24 bit as the card will come,
>> since
>> the AP 2496 isn't even close to 24 bit. It is even a tad
>> shy
>> of 16 bits. "
>>
>> Are you making an accusation of fraud here, or did I
>> miss something about your statement?
>
> M-Audio says the A-weighted dynamic range of the
> Audiophile 2496 inputs is 100.4dB.

A-weighting is good for about 10 dB *improvement* in
measured performance over unweighted.

16 bits is about 98 dB unweighted.

Do the math.

But not to say that the AP2496 is inadaquite for many
critcial audio applications. It just is what it is.
!