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That Hihat-Snare Balance

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Anonymous
August 13, 2005 12:29:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up with
an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great" hihat-snare
balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these problems
mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
hits, small one stick rolls......

More about : hihat snare balance

August 13, 2005 12:29:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <42fcea90$0$202$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk>,
henrikkrogh@mail.dk says...
> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up with
> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great" hihat-snare
> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
> without getting too much hihat.

Hmm. I always try to capture the full sound; most of my sound comes
from the overheads, not the individual drum mics. Could it be a tuning
problem?

> Gating is not an option since these problems
> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
> hits, small one stick rolls......
>
Maybe too much for *your* taste. Others may like it.
Have you tried a variety of mics with different polar patterns?
--
---Mikhael...
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 12:29:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

HKC wrote:
> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up with
> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great" hihat-snare
> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
> without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these problems
> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
> hits, small one stick rolls......
>
>

While I generally only mic the snare, knowing the hat will bleed and also be picked up by the
overheads, you could try a hypercardiod mic on the snare for better rejection and then try different
positions for optimal rejection.

You can employ a noise gate on the snare mic, too.

I get my overall sound from the overheads, and then dial in each drum to fatten their sound. I
generally rely upon the overheads for all cymbal capture, knowing the low tom mics and the snare mic
will also pick up some cymbal sound no matter what. That's why I also employ gates on the drums
themselves so I will get as little cymbal bleed through the tom mics as possible.

There are other methods, I'm sure, as many as there are engineers, I suspect. ;) 

--fletch
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Anonymous
August 13, 2005 12:29:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

HKC wrote:
> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up with
> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great" hihat-snare
> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
> without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these problems
> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
> hits, small one stick rolls......

Ummm - new heads on the snare? They do sound brighter than old
beat up ones. Also do you have a flutter echo coming back down from
the ceiling bleeding into snare mic? If so maybe hang a packing
blanket on the ceiling over the kit. And obviously the placement and
angle/postioning of your snare mic makes a big difference, Or you might
also add a second mic under the snare and just use that mic for the
brightness you are trying to add. You probably have to reverse
polarity on an "under" mic.

Of course, a good drujmmer is always helpful... <g>

Will Miho
NY Music and TV/Audio for Video Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 12:33:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

HKC wrote:
> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come
> up with an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the
> snare. I have recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not
> so great" hihat-snare balance that always makes it impossible to give
> the snare enough high end without getting too much hihat. Gating is
> not an option since these problems mainly occur with drummers who
> also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost hits, small one stick
> rolls......

Mic the snare from a position as far from the hi-hat as possible - try a
clip on on the side opposite the hat. And mic the hat as far from the snare
as possible.

As per the other poster though most of my sound comes from the large
diaphragm overheads - time aligned with the spot mics.



--
re-configure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 1:03:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2005-08-12, HKC <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote:

> these problems mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot
> (read too much) with ghost hits, small one stick rolls......

Where is this world going ? The other day, my brother in law
drove to the restaurant in his too reliable car and was served a
steak that was too good. And yes, the plate was too clean.

--
André Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/&gt;
(Counterfeit: uqifakiq@discussion.com cik@monster.com)
"J'baiserai la France jusqu'à ce qu'elle m'aime." -- Un rappeur
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 4:38:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

the Drawmer DS-201 is what you want. you can tune the gate using it's
own filters, so it will only open up in a certain frequency range.
this works great when you want to use the DS-201 on toms.

But the snare and hi-hat have many overlaps in frequency, and are near
each other. So what you do is set the DS-201 to open up to an
externally-triggered source (there's input jacks on the back for this).
then put a contact mic (one that picks up vibrations but rejects
air-born signals) on the snare, and run the signal from that mic into
one of the DS-201 trigger inputs (it's a two-channel unit). so
whenever you physically hit the snare it will open up the gate. then
you can fine tune the gate in terms of threshold, hold, decay etc. to
get the performance envelope you are looking for.
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 6:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Try to close-mic the snare batter head, pointing away from the hats so
you'll reject as much as possible from them, and move the hats up high as
you can without screwing with the drummer's ability to play.

If you can't solve the problem from there, you've either got a drummer that
needs replacing, hi-hat cymbals that don't work with the set, a badly tuned
set, or a room that's a high-end nightmare. And it's usually the drummer...
There are a lot of 'em that just won't/can't hit the snare at a volume that
works with the hi-hats or vice-versa. Sad but true.

my .02

dik
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 10:24:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

HKC <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote:
>I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up with
>an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
>recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great" hihat-snare
>balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
>without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these problems
>mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
>hits, small one stick rolls......

Use a more directional mike. Position things so the hat is directly in
the null of a hypercard mike (like the EV N/D 468). Mike the snare from
the bottom.

Or give the drummer a monitor mix that is WAY too high-hat heavy to
force him to compensate.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 2:45:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<<or you
could tell the drummer to play the snare harder and hh softer, he will
look
at you with a stupid look on his face, do it for about 6 bars then
slowly
revert to the way he always plays.>>

Too often true, but this is also too often the only real answer to the
problem. Studio-inexperienced drummers rarely get the volume balance
right between their various drums and cymbals, particularly snare/hat.
They also almost invariably play the hat with their "favored" hand
(righties use their right, etc.), which is also almost invariably the
stronger one, so a natural tendency to whack the hat harder than the
snare is a result. I believe that quality, experienced studio drummers
in most cases have simply trained themselves not to do this. They've
heard the results in playbacks (thin, bright backbeats that do NOT
"slam" in a mix), and like other good studio musicians and singers,
have adjusted their technique to get better results.

The good news is that the best solution is actually really easy. I've
played drums since I was 12 and have done many sessions on them
(although I'm not a pro-caliber player). ALL the drummer has to do is
*lighten up on the hat*. THAT'S IT. Almost all drummers already hit the
snare hard enough. Hitting it too hard is a much more common problem,
which thins the tone, as it does on any overblown instrument or voice.
Having the drummer simply go easier on the hat (quite often a *lot*
easier) is the best solution, by far. If needed, a mic on the hat will
then give you all you could want in the mix. Aggressively rolling off
lower frequencies will easily solve almost any leakage issue into it.

Unfortunately though, like you said, asking a hat-heavy drummer to make
this compensation *right now* when he's played it too hard forever,
will usually not work. It will take time for him to "get it", usually
months, not minutes. Pro drummers who already understand this make us
engineers look *so* much better at what we do. We get to sit back
afterwards and play tracks with this nice big snare sound, feeling like
gods. So much of it actually is the drummer's doing.

Back in the world of less that top studio cats though, aside from
gating, the limitations of which have already been well covered in
other posts here, or moving the mic further from the hat, there are
really only two things I know of that can help. Pointing the snare mic
down more extremely into the head is one, which will dull the sound
(proximity effect), but it can be EQ'd to compensate, hopefully without
bring too much hat back up. The other is to construct a little baffle
around the snare mic. This is a trick taught to me long ago by a great
engineer I assisited early in my career at the Hit Factory. We would
take something like corrugated cardboard and cut a blunt-ended triangle
shape into it, about 8" long, fold it into a semicircle, and duct tape
it to the mic stand so it fanned out around and above the mic, right in
the line of sight of the hat. It would extend a little past the
capsule, creating a sort of mini-gobo around it, looking a bit like a
large conical flower petal, with the mic being the rod-shaped thingie
in the middle of the flower. Yes it would color the tone, but only a
little, and it would reduce hat leakage by a *lot*. Maybe 10db or so.
It's an extreme measure, and takes some time out of the session as you
fuss with it, but it is effective. Fortunately, it's been many years
since I had to resort to it (or unfortunately, in some cases, had the
time to), but it does work.

So, assuming a suitable snare mic has been chosen (like the trusty SM57
for example), here are the steps I'd recommend, in order, each one only
necessary if the previous fails:

1) Preach to the drummer the "go light on the hat" gospel
2) Move the mic as far away from that hat as practical, and the hat
itself as far away from and/or above the mic as the drummer can stand
3) Aim the mic down into the drum head until just before it screams for
mercy
4) Build the little cardboard "mic gobo" (then see if you can then move
the mic back to a more normal placement)

One last point: going through all the steps above, especially the last
one, could make a serious impression on the drummer, as in "maybe I'm
doiing something wrong here", which may ultimately be the key to
getting him to implement step #1, which is again, the best possible
outcome.

Best of luck to you.

Ted Spencer, NYC
www.tedspencerrecording.com
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 4:13:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

One point to add to my comments above: drummers also often overaccent
the backbeat on the hat even when they're not otherwise playing it too
hard, like:

tick tick WHOMP tick tick tick WHOMP...

Getting them just to ease off on the hat backbeats can be enough to
solve the problem. It's interesting to watch Charlie Watts play - he
doesn't play backbeats on the hat at all.

It might be easier sell to the drummer on that than asking him to
change his entire hat approach.

Ted Spencer, NYC
www.tedspencerrecording.com
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:04:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

that's all great, but you end up with a whoosh of hihat when the gate does
open and makes it sound unnatural. but you can set the reduction ammount to
only a few db to help, but still...

you should learn where your mics best rejection is, just plug it in, pop on
some headphones and talk into the mic, then turn it around and listen to
where is the dullest, surpizingly you will find it is not directly from the
back, but from the back and to the side a bit. try all your mics, you may
find some surprises. remember a figure of 8 mic is very deaf from the side,
much more than a cardioid.

But remember also that if the drummer is a real HH slammer and snare pitter
patteera, then you are still going to get heaps of hh into the snare mic no
matter what, and hh bleed into the back of a snare mic is ugly, because its
from the back of the mic. one solution is to treat the snare and hh area of
the kit as one thing and place a mic that picks up both nicly.

depending on the style of music a sample replacement my be ok, or you
could tell the drummer to play the snare harder and hh softer, he will look
at you with a stupid look on his face, do it for about 6 bars then slowly
revert to the way he always plays.





<genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123961937.884466.56100@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> the Drawmer DS-201 is what you want. you can tune the gate using it's
> own filters, so it will only open up in a certain frequency range.
> this works great when you want to use the DS-201 on toms.
>
> But the snare and hi-hat have many overlaps in frequency, and are near
> each other. So what you do is set the DS-201 to open up to an
> externally-triggered source (there's input jacks on the back for this).
> then put a contact mic (one that picks up vibrations but rejects
> air-born signals) on the snare, and run the signal from that mic into
> one of the DS-201 trigger inputs (it's a two-channel unit). so
> whenever you physically hit the snare it will open up the gate. then
> you can fine tune the gate in terms of threshold, hold, decay etc. to
> get the performance envelope you are looking for.
>
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:04:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <ddnbv9$1ngq$1@otis.netspace.net.au> adamcal@ozemail.com.au writes:

> that's all great, but you end up with a whoosh of hihat when the gate does
> open and makes it sound unnatural.

Isn't the root of this problem with the drummer? If he played with the
proper dynamics, the balance would be correct.

> But remember also that if the drummer is a real HH slammer and snare pitter
> patteera, then you are still going to get heaps of hh into the snare mic no
> matter what

We know the solution to that, don't we? Why must we compromise our
skill as engineers to fix musicians who haven't learned to play
yet? (and no, that's not what engineers should be doing) Why can't
they wait a few more years to make their records after they learn to
play or sing?




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 4:29:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:29:52 +0200, "HKC" <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote:

>I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up with
>an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
>recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great" hihat-snare
>balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
>without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these problems
>mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
>hits, small one stick rolls......
>


Any particular reason you need to? Isn't the drummer balancing the
two instruments? He plays - you record. Is remedial processing
necessary?
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:26:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Wrap the snare mic with foam in a cone shape. 3 to 6" air gap from
head. Use a boom stand to get it well positioned.
I have even lightly pressed the foam against the snare with good
results.
No more hi hat problems.

Don't mess with the drummer's style too much, his or her job is to keep
rythym, yours is to record without stressing them out.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 5:01:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2005-08-14 mrivers@d-and-d.com said:
>We know the solution to that, don't we? Why must we compromise our
>skill as engineers to fix musicians who haven't learned to play
>yet? (and no, that's not what engineers should be doing) Why can't
>they wait a few more years to make their records after they learn to
>play or sing?
I'm with Mike here. I've had a few sessions where the drummer bitched
about the amount of hat he heard when we got the snare where he liked
it. IN some cases letting him hear the tale of the tape which doesn't
lie was enough to get him to adjust his technique for the studio.
I've seen the mini gobo approach Ted suggested in another post in this
thread used by a producer I worked with many years ago when we had
this problem with an amateur hour drummer but didn't really care for
the sound of the snare when we used it.
this is why I hate autotune and performing microsurgery on tracks as
well. If you can't flipping play or sing don't book the damned
session until you're ready!
IIRC we used some cardboard and tape to fashion our little gobo for
the snare mic. One of the few times that letting the drummer hear the
results didn't get him to attempt to alter technique to get the sound
he and his mates really wanted.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



TUning and timing are not cities in China.
August 15, 2005 9:53:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Maybe lower the hihat, so that he plays it on top with the bead of the
stick, instead of thrashing it from the side? Just an idea, and he
may not go for it.

Tom Scholz of Boston fame used to get bugged by this and wished he
had an "anti-hihat mic".
--
---Mikhael...
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 10:14:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>>I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up
>>with
>>an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
>>recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great"
>>hihat-snare
>>balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
>>without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these
>>problems
>>mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
>>hits, small one stick rolls......
>>
>
>
> Any particular reason you need to? Isn't the drummer balancing the
> two instruments? He plays - you record. Is remedial processing
> necessary?

It's just something that keeps bugging me. Although I agree that those
drummers should get their act together it's more easily said than done.
Unless your working in a topnotch studio I'd say that the cases where this
is a problem are more common than the other way around. Which brings me back
to the original post, are there any tricks that I haven't thought of or
don't know about that balance. Sadly it sees that everyone has the same
problem with this so hihat all over it is.
Of course there is the sidechain option which can help a bit. I usually make
a copy of the snare track and edit everything out of it except for the snare
hits and then sidechain the real snaretrack with this one. If you do that
it's possible to get the all the little sounds though the gate as well as
the heavy hits. As someone suggested it's difficult to use full gate in
these situations but even a few Dbs help. It's a bit timeconsuming though
and far from as good as a well played take but they are hard to come by.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 10:49:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'd like to represent the drummer's side of this (I'm a drummer and
engineer).

Make sure that the drummer is hearing plenty of his own high hat in his
head phones. Closed ear headphones definately cut out lots of the high
end (high hat ) leakage while allowing the snare to penetrate. So use
open ear phones, or keep the hat up in the mix. If the drummer any
good at all, and is listening to what he sounds like, that should
encourage him to hold back on the hat.

I suggest trying a different hi hat as well. The new hats are really
loud and bright. Older hats tend to be mellower and less loud. Try
light weight hats - they're quieter as well.

Drummers get used to the fact that the engineer has almost complete
control over how loud a particular instrument will be, or what it will
sound like. So drummers (especially experienced ones) stop worrying
about the mix. This is encouraged by the fact that many engineers
don't want drummers to interfere too much in their jobs. The result
is that the drummer just expect an imbalance to get fixed in the mix -
and it usually is! The suggestions already made here - of having the
drummer listen to the tracks - is the obvious solution. Also, the
engineer has to make the drummer trust him so that the drummer doesn't
resist making the changes asked for.

It's really hard to play every piece of the drumset at a different
velocity (and volume), especially when you are playing a complicated
beat or fill. Asking the drummer to change his way of playing may work
(depending on the drummer and the beat he's playing), but often it just
throws his ballance off and can screw with his time. The original
question (how to reduce the high hat in the mix) is really the right
way of approaching the situation without inhibiting the drummer.

I have heard rumors that there are a few bad drummers out there. If
after trying all the obvious fixes the high hat still sounds bad...
well ... he's a bad drummer.

Ken Winokur / Alloy Orchestra
alloyorchestra.com
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:14:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In addition to all of the suggestions above, check your phase
relationships on all of your mics. Flipping the polarity may give you a
much fatter, more present snare sound which while it's not changing the
relative levels of the perfornace or how they were recorded may change
the relative levels that come of out the speakers.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 6:39:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <MPG.1d6ad8d37dd62bd298978d@news.freescale.net>,
Mick <m.porter@sausagefreescale.com> wrote:

> Maybe lower the hihat, so that he plays it on top with the bead of the
> stick, instead of thrashing it from the side? Just an idea, and he
> may not go for it.
>
> Tom Scholz of Boston fame used to get bugged by this and wished he
> had an "anti-hihat mic".
> --
> ---Mikhael...



Tom has his own way of doing things ...

If getting too much hat consistently bugs anyone here, get a mic that
can do hypercardiod or figure 8 and put the hat in the null. It really
does work. e.g. an AKG 414b-uls will do this quite well and sound pretty
nice on a snare.




David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 9:35:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

How about changing the polarity on the high hat mic to phase out some
of the high hat? Never tried it but it should work. Of course it
might make the hat sound like.....you know what.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 11:21:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Well, let me just relate my personal perspective. I mostly play a
weird percussion setup (lots of found objects - springs, horseshoes, a
bedpan, plumbing pipes, as well as conventional drums, gongs, and
cymbals). I know that the various objects are different volumes (as is
the typical drumset). I just make sure that the setup is properly
miced (close micing the quiet objects and using overheads for the rest)
and then work with an excellent engineer. I hit the objects so that
they sound best and let the engineer make the decision about how loud
the audience will hear it. When I record DVDs or CDs of Alloy
Orchestra, I record myself. I use lots of mics and then mix to fit the
music. I usually record 14 mics and then mute as many as possible when
mixing.

Admittedly my situation is odd, but I think that most good drummers
have something similar in mind. Drums and cymbals sound different when
struck loudly or softly. The sticks also make a lot of difference.
When recording, drummers will decide what makes the drum resonate best,
or have the attack they prefer. They count on the engineer keeping
the volume in check on the recording.

I don't ascribe to the "fix it in the mix" philosophy when it comes to
tuning, or choosing drums. But I do think that the engineer is the one
to make final volume decisions. I, like the guy who asked the question
originally, prefer the hi hat to be on the quiet side. I usually find
it easy, when recording other drummers, to lower the hat in the mix.
Unlike others in this thread, I find it advantageous to use only a
moderate amount of overheads - just enough to get the right balance of
cymbals to drums.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 12:52:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1124156992.733523.293010@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> kenwinokur@verizon.net writes:

> Make sure that the drummer is hearing plenty of his own high hat in his
> head phones. Closed ear headphones definately cut out lots of the high
> end (high hat ) leakage while allowing the snare to penetrate. So use
> open ear phones, or keep the hat up in the mix. If the drummer any
> good at all, and is listening to what he sounds like, that should
> encourage him to hold back on the hat.

Maybe, or maybe he'll just ask you to turn down the hi-hat in his
headphones. That's when you have to lie a little and tell him to stop
hitting it so hard because you don't have the hi-hat mic (which of
course you've put there and aren't using) up in his headphone mix at
all.

> Drummers get used to the fact that the engineer has almost complete
> control over how loud a particular instrument will be, or what it will
> sound like. So drummers (especially experienced ones) stop worrying
> about the mix. This is encouraged by the fact that many engineers
> don't want drummers to interfere too much in their jobs.

Sounds like a bad feedback path to me. I almost never record drums,
but when I have, they've always been experienced drummers and they're
very conscious of how they balanced themselves. Usully if they
actually listen to the song (as a good drummer should) rather than
just keep the rhythm, this will come along naturally.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:16:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Maybe lower the hihat, so that he plays it on top with the bead of the
stick, instead of thrashing it from the side? Just an idea, and he may not
go for it.

But what if you want that rock'n roll feel and sound just with less hihat.
You need to hit the hihat quite hard to get that sound so I think it could
also be solved by using a more quiet hihat. It just occurred to me that I
could look into this and maybe buy one to use on those crucial sessions.
Obviously the drummer will have to understand that this is not a critisism
of his hihat but more of his playing!!!!
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 11:27:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1124195723.023358.72020@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> kenwinokur@verizon.net writes:

> How about changing the polarity on the high hat mic to phase out some
> of the high hat?

Only for one frequency, and then only if they're the right distance
apart. Chances are rather than reduce the hi-hat level, you'd mess up
the sound of the snare.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 4:42:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kenwinokur@verizon.net wrote:
> How about changing the polarity on the high hat mic to phase out some
> of the high hat? Never tried it but it should work. Of course it
> might make the hat sound like.....you know what.

Woulnd't that be nice, but it won't work. Flipping the polarity will
change the sound of everything bleeding into that mic, meaning the
snare drum too. The more accurate your phase relationships, the more
accurate the represtation of the balance in the room. Maybe the hihat
seems to loud because teh snare is anemic becuase the polarity
relationship with the overheads is wrong.

Now you turn up the snare, but you boos the high hat too. With your
phase right, the snare is big and fat and doens't need to be boosted
and EQd and you add less hihat via the snare mic bleed when boosting to
compensate for phase problems.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:13:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"HKC" <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote in message
news:42fcea90$0$202$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up
with
> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great"
hihat-snare
> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
> without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these
problems
> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
> hits, small one stick rolls......

Have you tried a noise-cancelling pair of mikes for the snare, one above,
one below, and equidistant from the hihat. Add them out of phase; the
hihat signal should be cancelled out, and the snare drum signal doubled.

Tim
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 12:37:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 9/1/05 4:13 PM, in article 0iJRe.4895$w4.1687@newsfe5-win.ntli.net, "Tim
Martin" <tim2718281@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
> "HKC" <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote in message
> news:42fcea90$0$202$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up
> with
>> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
>> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great"
> hihat-snare
>> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
>> without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these
> problems
>> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
>> hits, small one stick rolls......
>
> Have you tried a noise-cancelling pair of mikes for the snare, one above,
> one below, and equidistant from the hihat. Add them out of phase; the
> hihat signal should be cancelled out, and the snare drum signal doubled.


How do you keep all of the snare out of the cancellation mic?
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 2:07:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:13:48 GMT, "Tim Martin"
<tim2718281@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>"HKC" <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote in message
>news:42fcea90$0$202$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
>> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up
>with
>> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
>> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great"
>hihat-snare
>> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high end
>> without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these
>problems
>> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with ghost
>> hits, small one stick rolls......
>
>Have you tried a noise-cancelling pair of mikes for the snare, one above,
>one below, and equidistant from the hihat. Add them out of phase; the
>hihat signal should be cancelled out, and the snare drum signal doubled.
>
>Tim
>

Have YOU tried this? Noise cancellation only works when the mikes are
recieving the same signal to be cancelled. The hihat is sending out
different sound from the top and bottom (not simply out of phase, even
weirder.) Room acoustics are much messier that the theory would make
you think. Plus, it wouldn't be equidistant from the two mike unless
it was parallel to the center of the snare shell.

Better to try and be as close as possible to the snare, top and bottom
(phase reversed) and spend the extra time figuring out where the snare
sounds best with the positioning.

Or, resort to the "born in the USA" trick which was a shotgun mic
(sennheiser?) suspended over the snare, with, oh, a real drummer
smacking the piss out of the snare and NOT smacking the piss out of
the hi hat. But like the OP said, there is too much extra ghost stuff
to count on this.

You need to put your mikes in harm's way, I'm afraid. Get real close
with a tight cardoid pattern, and actually look at the chart of
rejection that came with your mike and use it to create a shadow where
the hi hat lives.

Secondly, don't let the mike be located where you'll get a reflection
from the snare that can exist outside of the shadow.

Thirdly, use a hi hat mike that complements the strange sound it's
making through the snare mike. The hi hat mike alone may sound like
ass, but if combined it sounds right, than it IS right. Don't pan them
both to center, move the Hat mike to the side - it'll help
differentiate the sound.

Fourthly, try to get the drummer to use lighter hi-hats. Big Honking
live hats aren't the way to go - start extolling the virtues of a KZ
combination. Ther record extremely well.



Good luck, everybody.




Kurt Riemann
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 11:55:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I am a recording engineer and a producer, not a drummer... Anyway i bought a
set of "special" cymbals i carry along with me for recording sessions. One
of the HH I have is a Zijldjan (f*** the spelling) 12' SR which is a dark
and soft HH. I have really less balance problems when I use it.....
Expecially when the HH is played open....
F.


<Kurt Riemann> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:hspfh1lrgqllksf9q1lc2ihbiaulhs0ei7@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:13:48 GMT, "Tim Martin"
> <tim2718281@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"HKC" <henrikkrogh@mail.dk> wrote in message
> >news:42fcea90$0$202$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> >> I know there is no definate solution to this one but has anyone come up
> >with
> >> an even half efficient way to keep the hihat out of the snare. I have
> >> recorded so many drummers and half of them have a "not so great"
> >hihat-snare
> >> balance that always makes it impossible to give the snare enough high
end
> >> without getting too much hihat. Gating is not an option since these
> >problems
> >> mainly occur with drummers who also plays a lot (read too much) with
ghost
> >> hits, small one stick rolls......
> >
> >Have you tried a noise-cancelling pair of mikes for the snare, one above,
> >one below, and equidistant from the hihat. Add them out of phase; the
> >hihat signal should be cancelled out, and the snare drum signal doubled.
> >
> >Tim
> >
>
> Have YOU tried this? Noise cancellation only works when the mikes are
> recieving the same signal to be cancelled. The hihat is sending out
> different sound from the top and bottom (not simply out of phase, even
> weirder.) Room acoustics are much messier that the theory would make
> you think. Plus, it wouldn't be equidistant from the two mike unless
> it was parallel to the center of the snare shell.
>
> Better to try and be as close as possible to the snare, top and bottom
> (phase reversed) and spend the extra time figuring out where the snare
> sounds best with the positioning.
>
> Or, resort to the "born in the USA" trick which was a shotgun mic
> (sennheiser?) suspended over the snare, with, oh, a real drummer
> smacking the piss out of the snare and NOT smacking the piss out of
> the hi hat. But like the OP said, there is too much extra ghost stuff
> to count on this.
>
> You need to put your mikes in harm's way, I'm afraid. Get real close
> with a tight cardoid pattern, and actually look at the chart of
> rejection that came with your mike and use it to create a shadow where
> the hi hat lives.
>
> Secondly, don't let the mike be located where you'll get a reflection
> from the snare that can exist outside of the shadow.
>
> Thirdly, use a hi hat mike that complements the strange sound it's
> making through the snare mike. The hi hat mike alone may sound like
> ass, but if combined it sounds right, than it IS right. Don't pan them
> both to center, move the Hat mike to the side - it'll help
> differentiate the sound.
>
> Fourthly, try to get the drummer to use lighter hi-hats. Big Honking
> live hats aren't the way to go - start extolling the virtues of a KZ
> combination. Ther record extremely well.
>
>
>
> Good luck, everybody.
>
>
>
>
> Kurt Riemann
!