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What is the lowest db for radio play?

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Anonymous
August 17, 2005 1:04:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

What is the lowest db that the softest passages should be at for pop
radio play? The reason I ask is that some of the soft parts are just
too soft and I think I am going to have to do something about that.
Any suggestions?

More about : lowest radio play

Anonymous
August 17, 2005 5:01:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave "Bad Breath" Rogers wrote:
> What is the lowest db that the softest passages should be at for pop
> radio play? The reason I ask is that some of the soft parts are just
> too soft and I think I am going to have to do something about that.
> Any suggestions?

Okay, I'll bite...I'll play the role of smart-ass for today and respond
with a resounding -96dBfs.

Seriously though, you shouldn't be concerning yourself with "what's
right for the radio"...you have no way of knowing just how modified
your mix is going to become when it hits the Orban Optimod at the
station. Instead, do what's right for the song, period.

(A little tip though: the way the optimod (and other similar radio
processors) works, if your mix is actually a couple dB quieter than
today's "standards", it'll end up being a couple dB louder than those
record-level-setting songs over the air-waves, and a helluva lot
clearer too.)

Cheers,
Chris
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:23:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I should also add that the song starts out with vocal and piano, and
ends with full orchestra, piano, vocals. So there is quite a musical
build through the song. But overall, the song is much to quiet...to
the point where you really have to turn it up to hear it well. I am
extremely frustrated by this.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:04:50 -0500, "Dave \"Bad Breath\" Rogers"
<drnopsma@hotmail.com> wrote:

>What is the lowest db that the softest passages should be at for pop
>radio play? The reason I ask is that some of the soft parts are just
>too soft and I think I am going to have to do something about that.
>Any suggestions?
Related resources
August 17, 2005 7:28:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>I have heard some songs that
> basically sound like about 30-40% distortion. What a difference
> the better stuff sounds, even more on a more private station using little
> processing.

A few weeks (months?) ago there was a thread here about loud CDs, and just
today I saw this in another group:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.h... I apologize if
this has already been discussed here, but maybe you ARE hearing 30%
distortion!

-John O
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:52:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The softest passages should be no more than 0dB below the loudest.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 12:06:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 8/17/05 10:04 AM, in article krg6g11kn4rg0cbdgpn1mridicrsmu4hgr@4ax.com,
"Dave "Bad Breath" Rogers" <drnopsma@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What is the lowest db that the softest passages should be at for pop
> radio play? The reason I ask is that some of the soft parts are just
> too soft and I think I am going to have to do something about that.
> Any suggestions?

Non-question Radio will compres and process the hell out of the recording
and take care of this for you. As a matter of fact, the more dynamics your
reco
rding has, the BETTER radio processors will handle it.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 7:21:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> The softest passages should be no more than 0dB below the loudest.

Is that peak or RMS ? ;->

rd
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 7:38:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave "Bad Breath" Rogers wrote:

> I should also add that the song starts out with vocal and piano, and
> ends with full orchestra, piano, vocals. So there is quite a musical
> build through the song. But overall, the song is much to quiet...to
> the point where you really have to turn it up to hear it well. I am
> extremely frustrated by this.

This is what mastering is all about.
What I would do in a case like this is allow for
more dynamics at the beginning of the song and
compress more toward the end. In other words the
peak levels can be a few dB below 0dBfs at the start
and at or near 0dBfs at the end. The RMS levels can
be 'punched up' with compression as the song
progresses, but within reason. (NO DISTORTION !)

Any further compression needed for broadcast
will certainly be added when transmitted.

Can you post a link to an MP3 ? <at least 128kbps>
Even though the MP3 process can effect the
sound quality it can be useful for looking at
levels if done cleanly (no normalizing, etc)

rd
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 10:53:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"William Sommerwerck" <gizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l7WdnSG7_bBDIp7eRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> The softest passages should be no more than 0dB below the loudest.

heh.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:01:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> A few weeks (months?) ago there was a thread here about loud CDs, and just
> today I saw this in another group:
> http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.h... I apologize if
> this has already been discussed here, but maybe you ARE hearing 30%
> distortion!
>
> -John O
>
>

Having been doing wedding video recently, I'm the recipient of album CDs
that the couples want to have me include as background music. I extract the
audio directly and open it in an editor for upsampling to DVD format. What I
have seen recently is appalling! Severely clipped peaks, such that the music
sounds like it's being played through an overdriven stereo, with severe IMD
on the percussion. So we've devolved beyond just processing down to out and
out clipping. Do these 'engineers' that mix these albums even know what
distortion is anymore?
Not that I really care, but it does raise curiousity along the lines of
fascination with train wrecks.


--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 5:22:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 8/18/05 5:01 AM, in article
F7YMe.9081$Je.3488@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>> A few weeks (months?) ago there was a thread here about loud CDs, and just
>> today I saw this in another group:
>> http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.h... I apologize if
>> this has already been discussed here, but maybe you ARE hearing 30%
>> distortion!
>>
>> -John O
>>
>>
>
> Having been doing wedding video recently, I'm the recipient of album CDs
> that the couples want to have me include as background music. I extract the
> audio directly and open it in an editor for upsampling to DVD format. What I
> have seen recently is appalling! Severely clipped peaks, such that the music
> sounds like it's being played through an overdriven stereo, with severe IMD
> on the percussion. So we've devolved beyond just processing down to out and
> out clipping. Do these 'engineers' that mix these albums even know what
> distortion is anymore?
> Not that I really care, but it does raise curiousity along the lines of
> fascination with train wrecks.

Where you been? No the forst instance but the first one to get talked about
a lot was the chii Peppers album a few back.
I was just floored at a recent (of all artists) GYPSY KINGS record that was
just unlistenable, music was GREAT (flamenco madness) but it unlike
previously gorgeous transparent records, this just GRATED to listen to.
You can go back and find things like Hoirnsby's HOTHOUSE which is a
MARVELOUSLY engineered recording (and good music and playing )that's just
like having your face shoved up against the glass window to have to actually
listen to.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:45:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

a.m. <acmost@bellsouth.not> wrote:
>"William Sommerwerck" <gizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:l7WdnSG7_bBDIp7eRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>> The softest passages should be no more than 0dB below the loudest.
>
> heh.

That's right. You'll never get any radio play without extreme compression.
If you don't use enough compression, the lyrics will be understandable,
and stations will refuse to play them because they might be obscene. Proper
overcompression can make the vocals unintelligible and prevent complaints.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:50:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>
>Where you been? No the forst instance but the first one to get talked about
>a lot was the chii Peppers album a few back.
>I was just floored at a recent (of all artists) GYPSY KINGS record that was
>just unlistenable, music was GREAT (flamenco madness) but it unlike
>previously gorgeous transparent records, this just GRATED to listen to.

Was it their "best of" CD, with the orange cover? That one is just
squashed to hell and back.

> You can go back and find things like Hoirnsby's HOTHOUSE which is a
>MARVELOUSLY engineered recording (and good music and playing )that's just
>like having your face shoved up against the glass window to have to actually
>listen to.

What upsets me so much are the number of old reissues that are being
mutilated in this way. You could argue that on the latest hip-hop record,
the effect is a deliberate artistic decision. But on a Steve Miller album,
there's no way.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:04:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> a.m. <acmost@bellsouth.not> wrote:
> >"William Sommerwerck" <gizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:l7WdnSG7_bBDIp7eRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> >> The softest passages should be no more than 0dB below the loudest.
> >
> > heh.
>
> That's right. You'll never get any radio play without extreme compression.
> If you don't use enough compression, the lyrics will be understandable,
> and stations will refuse to play them because they might be obscene. Proper
> overcompression can make the vocals unintelligible and prevent complaints.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Reminds me of Stan Freberg and "Sh-boom"
" ...hold it, hold it! I distinkly hoyd a word."

Later...

Ron Capik
--
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:15:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> < ...snip.. >
>
> What upsets me so much are the number of old reissues that are being
> mutilated in this way. You could argue that on the latest hip-hop record,
> the effect is a deliberate artistic decision. But on a Steve Miller album,
> there's no way.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

That's just the latest mutilation technique, and I wish they would warn you.
I have a CD of The Ventures, "Walk Don't Run." All the cover art is identical
to the LP. Nowhere do the tell you it was re-tempoed ....discoized. Yuck!

Later...

Ron Capik
--
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:15:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> That's just the latest mutilation technique, and I wish they would warn
> you.
> I have a CD of The Ventures, "Walk Don't Run." All the cover art is
> identical
> to the LP. Nowhere do the tell you it was re-tempoed ....discoized. Yuck!
>
> Later...
>
> Ron Capik
>

Yesterday there was an ad on a local radio station (Toronto) talking about
overcompression of today's music and related technicalities. I didn't get to
hear the point of the ad (or what was being advertised) because I trying to
read a map and drive at the same time, but I was surprised to hear it.
Anyone else heard anything like this on the air?

Dave
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:05:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 8/19/05 9:50 AM, in article de4o2m$22e$1@panix2.panix.com, "Scott Dorsey"
<kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote:
>>
>> Where you been? No the forst instance but the first one to get talked about
>> a lot was the chii Peppers album a few back.
>> I was just floored at a recent (of all artists) GYPSY KINGS record that was
>> just unlistenable, music was GREAT (flamenco madness) but it unlike
>> previously gorgeous transparent records, this just GRATED to listen to.
>
> Was it their "best of" CD, with the orange cover? That one is just
> squashed to hell and back.

SOMOS GITANOS
I've played it exactly 1.5 times.
First time I was just confused at what was wrong with the system.
Second time through in spots with and without headphones was just jaw
droppingly angering.
Haven;t bought one of their records since


>
>> You can go back and find things like Hoirnsby's HOTHOUSE which is a
>> MARVELOUSLY engineered recording (and good music and playing )that's just
>> like having your face shoved up against the glass window to have to actually
>> listen to.
>
> What upsets me so much are the number of old reissues that are being
> mutilated in this way. You could argue that on the latest hip-hop record,
> the effect is a deliberate artistic decision. But on a Steve Miller album,
> there's no way.

I have 3 different BEST OF collections of TOTO. The first "PAST TO PRESENT"
sounds MARVELOUS. It's one of my system check-out records.
The other two have pretty much the same songs (with exceptions) and are of
very real use in comparing what can be done to the recordings to make them
punchier in different ways, never to the good.

I just bought (replaced) a couple of KNOPFLER albums, the first DIRE STRAITS
record and BROTHERS IN ARMS. They;re part of a 'remastered' series with
really trick slick covers.
They pulled a good 6dB or better out of the levels, and the really GREAT
transparency that Knopfler had on these things is pretty much gone. They;re
notr HORRIBLE or UNLISTENABLE by any means but something is lost and nothing
commensurately gained in return, it's a lot like what happened to the ALMAN
BROTHERS LIVE ressurection. While it's PERFECT to have collected ALL the
Filmore sets that were previously scattered over several records and put
them back together under the LIVE AT THE FILLMORE record... they got some
6-9dB of level into the thing at the expense of one of the singularly most
transparent rock recordings ever... The drum kits and esp the SNARES on that
record were just as 'real' as anything you could want. The dynamics of the
pressing were built around them. Now they just sound like Rock Snares and
don;t have the magical snap.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:06:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 8/19/05 10:04 AM, in article 4305E62E.43979FF1@worldnet.att.net, "Ron
Capik" <r.capik@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> a.m. <acmost@bellsouth.not> wrote:
>>> "William Sommerwerck" <gizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:l7WdnSG7_bBDIp7eRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>>> The softest passages should be no more than 0dB below the loudest.
>>>
>>> heh.
>>
>> That's right. You'll never get any radio play without extreme compression.
>> If you don't use enough compression, the lyrics will be understandable,
>> and stations will refuse to play them because they might be obscene. Proper
>> overcompression can make the vocals unintelligible and prevent complaints.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> Reminds me of Stan Freberg and "Sh-boom"
> " ...hold it, hold it! I distinkly hoyd a word."

"No man... Like... It's too loud"

(On my knees and bowing towards StanVille)
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 10:01:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Where you been? No the forst instance but the first one to get talked
about
> a lot was the chii Peppers album a few back.
> I was just floored at a recent (of all artists) GYPSY KINGS record that
was
> just unlistenable, music was GREAT (flamenco madness) but it unlike
> previously gorgeous transparent records, this just GRATED to listen to.
> You can go back and find things like Hoirnsby's HOTHOUSE which is a
> MARVELOUSLY engineered recording (and good music and playing )that's just
> like having your face shoved up against the glass window to have to
actually
> listen to.
>

Listening to Classical and Japanese import CDs, I'm afraid. I don't even
listen to radio while in the US. It all sounds like savages pounding on
drums and women being tortured and screaming. But there are occasions when I
am paid to do a job, and this wedding recently put some of the American
culture music before my ears. It was a pain to endure, but they're paying me
to do a job.
I stopped listening to American music, oh around the time Johnny Rivers came
out with "Secret Agent Man". It's all been downhill since then, apparently.


--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 6:49:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 8/20/05 2:01 AM, in article
xGzNe.361$I93.245@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>> Where you been? No the forst instance but the first one to get talked
> about
>> a lot was the chii Peppers album a few back.
>> I was just floored at a recent (of all artists) GYPSY KINGS record that
> was
>> just unlistenable, music was GREAT (flamenco madness) but it unlike
>> previously gorgeous transparent records, this just GRATED to listen to.
>> You can go back and find things like Hoirnsby's HOTHOUSE which is a
>> MARVELOUSLY engineered recording (and good music and playing )that's just
>> like having your face shoved up against the glass window to have to
> actually
>> listen to.
>>
>
> Listening to Classical and Japanese import CDs, I'm afraid. I don't even
> listen to radio while in the US. It all sounds like savages pounding on
> drums and women being tortured and screaming. But there are occasions when I
> am paid to do a job, and this wedding recently put some of the American
> culture music before my ears. It was a pain to endure, but they're paying me
> to do a job.
> I stopped listening to American music, oh around the time Johnny Rivers came
> out with "Secret Agent Man". It's all been downhill since then, apparently.


Lyle Lovett
Last Train Home
Dave Alvin
!