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Outdoor concert recordings

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Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:36:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.

Next month, I may need to do so.

For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?

It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into
the audience, and record everything to my MDR.

The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.

Incidentally, my goal is to capture the performance, not necessarily the
setting. So there is no particular need for my recording to sound like
it was made outdoors. All that matters is that it represents the live
performance well, along with the enthusiastic response of the audience at
appropriate moments.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:36:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jim Gilliland" <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote in message
news:43048f7a$0$1578$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>
> Next month, I may need to do so.
>
> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>
> It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
> I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into the
> audience, and record everything to my MDR.
>
> The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
> of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
> reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
> will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.
>
> Incidentally, my goal is to capture the performance, not necessarily the
> setting. So there is no particular need for my recording to sound like it
> was made outdoors. All that matters is that it represents the live
> performance well, along with the enthusiastic response of the audience at
> appropriate moments.

Wind noise?

Steve King
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:36:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jim Gilliland" wrote ...
> As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>
> Next month, I may need to do so.
>
> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the
> key differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>
> It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do
> differently. I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics
> pointing into the audience, and record everything to my MDR.
>
> The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any
> sort of natural room ambience,

Be prepared for wind. We rarely have to deal with that indoors
(except perhaps for agressive HVAC or ceiling fans! :-) but it
is a live possibility outdoors.

I once had to remove my socks and use them on a couple of
mics for lack of anything more appropriate.
(Fortunately, they were not vocal mics! :-)
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 3:24:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chel van Gennip wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:29 +0200, Jim Gilliland wrote:
>
> > As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> > obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
> >
> > Next month, I may need to do so.
>
> I had the same situation, see photo:
> http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/do_photo.html?photo=S...
>
> > For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key


Does it seem like a bad idea to have an open piano and speakers getting
rained on?

Mike
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 3:53:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Steve King wrote:
> "Jim Gilliland" <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote in message
> news:43048f7a$0$1578$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
>>As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
>>obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>>
>>Next month, I may need to do so.
>>
>>For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
>>differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>>
>>It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
>>I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into the
>>audience, and record everything to my MDR.
>>
>>The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
>>of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
>>reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
>>will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.
>>
>>Incidentally, my goal is to capture the performance, not necessarily the
>>setting. So there is no particular need for my recording to sound like it
>>was made outdoors. All that matters is that it represents the live
>>performance well, along with the enthusiastic response of the audience at
>>appropriate moments.
>
>
> Wind noise?

Good point, thanks! I can probably get windscreens that are suitable for
the stage mics (actually, the sound company will likely be prepared with
these), but I do NOT have anything suitable for my shotgun mics. Anyone
know a good source? I may have to go to Audio Technica to get the ones
that are specific to these mics (AT815R).
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 4:34:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dale Farmer wrote:
>
> Also be prepared for rainstorms, mud, thrown beer and dodgy power.
>



A hearty second to all of the above. Also, depending on time of year
and location, pollen can be a real nightmare. Like, completely
disassemble ALL of your gear & blow it out with compressed air the
minute you get home from the gig nightmare. I have yet to find an
effective preventative solution that doesn't compromise your fidelity.
(Or your dignity, in case anyone was about to suggest condoms.)
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 6:56:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland wrote:

> As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>
> Next month, I may need to do so.
>
> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>
> It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
> I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into
> the audience, and record everything to my MDR.
>
> The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
> of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
> reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
> will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.
>
> Incidentally, my goal is to capture the performance, not necessarily the
> setting. So there is no particular need for my recording to sound like
> it was made outdoors. All that matters is that it represents the live
> performance well, along with the enthusiastic response of the audience at
> appropriate moments.

Windscreens on all the mics, and wind blowing over your mic stands.

Also be prepared for rainstorms, mud, thrown beer and dodgy power.

--Dale
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 7:57:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

While I have only recorded one outdoor event (just a feed from the PA
easy...)
I have performed in a few.

Hazards include: An Airforce fly by in the middle of a song (very
distracting, and noisy).

A thunderstorm in the middle of Beethoven's 9th symphony, and as the
choir only sings in the last movement, we were soaked, and didn't even
get to sing :-(.

Peter.

Jim Gilliland wrote:

>
> I remember recording an indoor concert once when a train went by outside.
> The performer just let the train take a verse (while he continued to
> accompany it on the guitar), then he picked up where he left off.
>
> > ...do you still feel like doing this?
>
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 9:48:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland wrote:

> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?

The potential for wind noise is the biggest difference. You will want
good screens. It's amazing what even a slight breeze will do with an
unprotected mic.

--
ha
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 9:48:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hank alrich wrote:
> Jim Gilliland wrote:
>
>>For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
>>differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>
> The potential for wind noise is the biggest difference. You will want
> good screens. It's amazing what even a slight breeze will do with an
> unprotected mic.

Thanks, yes, that makes sense. It's the one common point that nearly
every respondent has made, and that's a good thing because I really had
overlooked it. It might have popped into my head at some point in the
next few weeks, but I sure appreciate all the mentions.

I'll make sure to have some suitable windscreens available, and to
discuss the need with the sound crew in advance of the show. It appears
that AT sells replacement windscreens for my shotgun mics for $24 list,
so I'll have to try to track down a couple of those.

I haven't completely decided whether or not to tackle this project. I
could just wait until this band (the Duhks) comes back to an indoor venue
sometime next year.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 10:02:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
>> Wind noise?
>
>Good point, thanks! I can probably get windscreens that are suitable for
>the stage mics (actually, the sound company will likely be prepared with
>these), but I do NOT have anything suitable for my shotgun mics. Anyone
>know a good source? I may have to go to Audio Technica to get the ones
>that are specific to these mics (AT815R).
>

Rycote. Do not substitute. The shotguns will be PHENOMENALLY sensitive
to wind noise and you really need a zeppelin.

Use omnis as much as possible, for reduced wind issues.

For most cardioids, the baby ball gag will be sufficient.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 10:31:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:29 +0200, Jim Gilliland wrote:

> As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>
> Next month, I may need to do so.

I had the same situation, see photo:
http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/do_photo.html?photo=S...

> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?

Rain, wind, pizza couriers, carillons, ambulances etc.

As others wrote: keep your micrphones dry and use windschields.


> Incidentally, my goal is to capture the performance, not necessarily the
> setting. So there is no particular need for my recording to sound like
> it was made outdoors. All that matters is that it represents the live
> performance well, along with the enthusiastic response of the audience
> at appropriate moments.

Outdoors you will get a lot of "setting".

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
August 18, 2005 10:52:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:26:06 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

> Be prepared for wind.

And also be prepared for a lot of spill as the guitarists turn their amps
up to 11 as is usual.
The last time I did an outside recording was a few years ago at a benefit
concert for a community radio station for later airplay.
I used an ADAT for that, mixing the drums down to 2 tracks as best I could
and splitting the rest onto the other 6 tracks. That way I could
concentrate more on the day's live performance and have the luxury of
mixing down the recording in a better environment. I'm you'd be able to
pick up and ADAT or two at any good audio hire place for a reasonable fee.

--
Jafar Calley
Producer - http://moonlife-records.com
--------------------------------------
See the latest Mars and Saturn images
http://fatcat.homelinux.org
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 12:40:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:24:07 +0200, transmogrifa wrote:
> Chel van Gennip wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:29 +0200, Jim Gilliland wrote:
>>
>> > As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
>> > obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>> >
>> > Next month, I may need to do so.
>>
>> I had the same situation, see photo:
>> http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/do_photo.html?photo=S...
>>
>> > For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the
>> > key
>
>
> Does it seem like a bad idea to have an open piano and speakers getting
> rained on?

I think yes. Don't forget the pianist (my son). Playing the Wanderer
Fantasie on wet keys with cold rain on your fingers is hard. The organiser
(with umbrella) had better expectations for the wether, but the show must
go on. For safety I had placed my microphones underneath the piano.


--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 12:40:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chel van Gennip wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:24:07 +0200, transmogrifa wrote:
>
>>Chel van Gennip wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:29 +0200, Jim Gilliland wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
>>>>obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>>>>
>>>>Next month, I may need to do so.
>>>
>>>I had the same situation, see photo:
>>>http://www.serg.vangennip.com/www/do_photo.html?photo=S...
>>>
>>>
>>>>For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the
>>>>key
>>
>>
>>Does it seem like a bad idea to have an open piano and speakers getting
>>rained on?
>
>
> I think yes. Don't forget the pianist (my son). Playing the Wanderer
> Fantasie on wet keys with cold rain on your fingers is hard. The organiser
> (with umbrella) had better expectations for the wether, but the show must
> go on. For safety I had placed my microphones underneath the piano.
>
>

When at all possible one could use some kind of awning or big expansive "tent" (without walls) to
protect against potential elemental interference.

--fletch
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 12:40:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Don't forget the pianist (my son). Playing the Wanderer
> Fantasie on wet keys with cold rain on your fingers is hard.

I think that goes without saying. Recording in acoustically non-ideal
situations is one thing, performing in them is a whole other can of worms.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 12:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <43048f7a$0$1578$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> usemylastname@cheerful.com writes:

> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?

1. Wind noise
2. Power can be iffy, same with grounding. Be prepared to spend more
time than you usually do tracing hum.
2. You never have enough room for all your stuff
3. The sun gets hot - wear a wide brim hat, and spray it with bug
repellent
4. It's a long way to the bathroom, and you'll drink a lot. (what you
drink may be regulated by law in your venue)

I've never found lack of ambience to be a problem with live recordings
of outdoor shows (folk festivals mostly). There are always enough open
mics. It won't sound like it's being performed in a concert hall, but
then it isn't.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:32:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Fletch wrote:

> When at all possible one could use some kind of awning or big expansive
> "tent" (without walls) to protect against potential elemental
> interference.


http://www.kdkanopy.com/

Maybe something like their Starshade. <g>

--
ha
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:49:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:

> As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>
> Next month, I may need to do so.
>
> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>
> It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
> I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into
> the audience, and record everything to my MDR.
>
> The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
> of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
> reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
> will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.

Can you 'fly' your mics and cables so they won't get trampled or stolen?

Also look out for:
Wind in mic
Wind noise from nearby foliage
Rain or hail
Echos from hills and buildings
Unexpected P.A. system at the venue
Helicopters
Traffic
Distant trains
Bawling kids
Passing drunks
Barking dogs
Birdsong
Lighting dimmer hash
Powerful nearby radio transmissions
Poor earthing (if running from a generator)
The sound of the generator
The need for much longer mic and mains leads than you normally use.
General chaos and poor communication
Lack of creature comforts (or even necessities): take drinking water,
basic food and toilet paper.
It gets incredibly cold in some places after sunset. You won't be doing
much physical work during the recording session, so take much warmer
clothing than you think you'll need.
Working lights may not be provided when packing up after dark - carry a
Tilley/Coleman lamp in the back of the car, otherwise you risk loosing
some vital bit of kit.
Take snow chains and a tow rope if you have to park in a field and there
is any chance of rain.


....do you still feel like doing this?


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:49:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
> Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
>
>
>>As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
>>obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>>
>>Next month, I may need to do so.
>>
>>For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
>>differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>>
>>It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
>>I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into
>>the audience, and record everything to my MDR.
>>
>>The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
>>of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
>>reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
>>will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.
>
>
> Can you 'fly' your mics and cables so they won't get trampled or stolen?

This is a folk concert. Nobody steals anything. Seriously, in 15 years
of doing this, I've never had a single problem.

> Also look out for:
> Wind in mic
> Wind noise from nearby foliage
> Rain or hail
> Echos from hills and buildings
> Unexpected P.A. system at the venue
> Helicopters
> Traffic
> Distant trains
> Bawling kids
> Passing drunks
> Barking dogs
> Birdsong
> Lighting dimmer hash
> Powerful nearby radio transmissions
> Poor earthing (if running from a generator)
> The sound of the generator
> The need for much longer mic and mains leads than you normally use.
> General chaos and poor communication
> Lack of creature comforts (or even necessities): take drinking water,
> basic food and toilet paper.
> It gets incredibly cold in some places after sunset. You won't be doing
> much physical work during the recording session, so take much warmer
> clothing than you think you'll need.
> Working lights may not be provided when packing up after dark - carry a
> Tilley/Coleman lamp in the back of the car, otherwise you risk loosing
> some vital bit of kit.
> Take snow chains and a tow rope if you have to park in a field and there
> is any chance of rain.

Wow, great list! Some of those items won't be an issue in this
situation, while others have comparable indoor pitfalls (I'm accustomed
to dealing with the crowd, protecting my equipment, dealing with slapback
echos, etc.). You don't have to be outdoors to have general chaos and
poor communication, light dimmer hash, or stray radio transmissions.

This one is being put on by the local metroparks who tend to have pretty
good facilities.

I remember recording an indoor concert once when a train went by outside.
The performer just let the train take a verse (while he continued to
accompany it on the guitar), then he picked up where he left off.

> ...do you still feel like doing this?

<g> I'm not at all sure, but that was true from the start. The weather
forecast may help me make up my mind, but that won't be known for quite a
while. This event had perfect weather last year, so perhaps it's due for
a rainstorm this year, I don't know. Maybe I should check the Farmer's
Almanac.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 3:43:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:

> Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
> > Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> >>obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.

> >
> > Can you 'fly' your mics and cables so they won't get trampled or stolen?
>
> This is a folk concert. Nobody steals anything. Seriously, in 15 years
> of doing this, I've never had a single problem.

I do a lot of folk P.A. work and find the punters are incredibly honest,
cheerful and helpful.

>
> > Also look out for:

[long list].

> Wow, great list! Some of those items won't be an issue in this
> situation, ...

You may not get them all in one venue, so don't feel cheated if some of
them don't occur .....you'll get the rest the next time you try it.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
August 19, 2005 4:21:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:39:09 -0400, David Grant wrote:

>
>>Don't forget the pianist (my son). Playing the Wanderer
>> Fantasie on wet keys with cold rain on your fingers is hard.
>
> I think that goes without saying. Recording in acoustically non-ideal
> situations is one thing, performing in them is a whole other can of worms.

Tell me about it. In my early days of performing, I had an Amiga computer,
small portable television, mixer, fx and a couple of synths perched on
metal ironing boards(floral covers removed). Needless to say rain was a
bit of a worry for me being surround by so much metal and electricity! ;) 

--
Jafar Calley
Producer - http://moonlife-records.com
--------------------------------------
See the latest Mars and Saturn images
http://fatcat.homelinux.org
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:33:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Buster Mudd wrote:

> Dale Farmer wrote:
> >
> > Also be prepared for rainstorms, mud, thrown beer and dodgy power.
> >
>
> A hearty second to all of the above. Also, depending on time of year
> and location, pollen can be a real nightmare. Like, completely
> disassemble ALL of your gear & blow it out with compressed air the
> minute you get home from the gig nightmare. I have yet to find an
> effective preventative solution that doesn't compromise your fidelity.
> (Or your dignity, in case anyone was about to suggest condoms.)

I'm leaving monday for Bangor. I'm doing temporary power for the
American Folk Festival up there next week. Six outdoor stages ( eight
if you count the little ones without sound reinforcement), food and craft
vendors in other tents, plus sales, information, demonstration, first aid,
baby-nursing, etc, etc, in other tents. The cables for the beer garden
power are truly disgusting at the end of the weekend.

--Dale
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 11:13:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland wrote:
> As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
> obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.
>
> Next month, I may need to do so.
>
> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?

I've never *recorded* outdoors but I've done band performances on stage
both indoors and outdoors.

Main difference with indoors are less reflections/reverb. From a
musicians point of view it's more difficult for them to hear themselves
and each other play because the sound is lost in open space. Also
things will sound will more 'dry' to them. They'll likely play louder
than indoors to compensate.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 12:17:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
>
>>>Wind noise?
>>
>>Good point, thanks! I can probably get windscreens that are suitable for
>>the stage mics (actually, the sound company will likely be prepared with
>>these), but I do NOT have anything suitable for my shotgun mics. Anyone
>>know a good source? I may have to go to Audio Technica to get the ones
>>that are specific to these mics (AT815R).
>
> Rycote. Do not substitute.

There's no way I can justify that kind of expenditure for this, Scott.
That would be almost a $500 expense for these two mics. The foam screens
that AT sells specifically for these mics go for about 10% of that.

If I really can't get by without that level of product, then I'll likely
just wait until this band comes to an indoor venue. That may be a good
choice anyway - as many here have pointed out, the outdoor setting makes
this entire event a lot less predictable.

My problem is that I tend to be an optimist! <g> I'm expecting a quiet
sunny day. We get a lot of those in mid-September, but it's no sure thing.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:03:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Re: Outdoor concert recordings

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 8:17am From:
usemylastname@cheerful.com (Jim Gilliland)
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
Wind noise?

Good point, thanks! I can probably get windscreens that are suitable for
the stage mics (actually, the sound company will likely be prepared with
these), but I do NOT have anything suitable for my shotgun mics. Anyone
know a good source? I may have to go to Audio Technica to get the ones
that are specific to these mics (AT815R).


Rycote. Do not substitute.
There's no way I can justify that kind of expenditure for this, Scott.
That would be almost a $500 expense for these two mics. The foam screens
that AT sells specifically for these mics go for about 10% of
that.<<<<<<<

You don't buy the Rycotes, you rent them.
There are any number of production sound rental companys that will
supply them.
Foam pop filters are not effective for wind noises.<<<<<<<

Eric
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 1:55:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Buster Mudd <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote:
>Dale Farmer wrote:
>>
>> Also be prepared for rainstorms, mud, thrown beer and dodgy power.
>
>A hearty second to all of the above. Also, depending on time of year
>and location, pollen can be a real nightmare. Like, completely
>disassemble ALL of your gear & blow it out with compressed air the
>minute you get home from the gig nightmare. I have yet to find an
>effective preventative solution that doesn't compromise your fidelity.
>(Or your dignity, in case anyone was about to suggest condoms.)

Put fans in ALL racks, with filters, blowing in. This keeps the rack
at positive pressure and filled up with filtered dust-free air. Change
filters regularly.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 2:04:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hank alrich <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
>Jim Gilliland wrote:
>
>> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
>> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>
>The potential for wind noise is the biggest difference. You will want
>good screens. It's amazing what even a slight breeze will do with an
>unprotected mic.

Also the leakage issues. And the audience singing along too!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 2:04:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:D e4osr$hrv$1@panix2.panix.com...
> hank alrich <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
>>Jim Gilliland wrote:
>>
>>> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the
>>> key
>>> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>>
>>The potential for wind noise is the biggest difference. You will want
>>good screens. It's amazing what even a slight breeze will do with an
>>unprotected mic.
>
> Also the leakage issues. And the audience singing along too!

But that is part of the "ambience" (in both senses of the word).
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 2:08:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Wind noise?
>>>
>>>Good point, thanks! I can probably get windscreens that are suitable for
>>>the stage mics (actually, the sound company will likely be prepared with
>>>these), but I do NOT have anything suitable for my shotgun mics. Anyone
>>>know a good source? I may have to go to Audio Technica to get the ones
>>>that are specific to these mics (AT815R).
>>
>> Rycote. Do not substitute.
>
>There's no way I can justify that kind of expenditure for this, Scott.
>That would be almost a $500 expense for these two mics. The foam screens
>that AT sells specifically for these mics go for about 10% of that.

Then rent them. Or, don't use shotguns.

>If I really can't get by without that level of product, then I'll likely
>just wait until this band comes to an indoor venue. That may be a good
>choice anyway - as many here have pointed out, the outdoor setting makes
>this entire event a lot less predictable.

The more directional the mike, the more wind problem you will have, the
more money it will take the bring the wind issues down. Therefore, your
job is to figure out how to do it with less directional mikes.

I'm not a big fan of any interference tube mikes, to be honest, so I don't
see that as too big an issue. But then, I've done some of these things
with just omnis and the stage feeds.

>My problem is that I tend to be an optimist! <g> I'm expecting a quiet
>sunny day. We get a lot of those in mid-September, but it's no sure thing.

There's some sort of rule that it has to rain at least once at an outdoor
festival.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 2:10:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>> hank alrich <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
>>>Jim Gilliland wrote:
>>>
>>>> For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the
>>>> key
>>>> differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?
>>>
>>>The potential for wind noise is the biggest difference. You will want
>>>good screens. It's amazing what even a slight breeze will do with an
>>>unprotected mic.
>>
>> Also the leakage issues. And the audience singing along too!
>
>But that is part of the "ambience" (in both senses of the word).

Right, and it means you need to capture that stuff accurately.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 2:57:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> And the audience singing along too!

Well, as long as they know the words...

--fletch
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:26:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim Gilliland wrote:
> There's no way I can justify that kind of expenditure for this, Scott.
> That would be almost a $500 expense for these two mics. The foam screens
> that AT sells specifically for these mics go for about 10% of that.
>
> If I really can't get by without that level of product, then I'll likely
> just wait until this band comes to an indoor venue. That may be a good
> choice anyway - as many here have pointed out, the outdoor setting makes
> this entire event a lot less predictable.
>
> My problem is that I tend to be an optimist! <g> I'm expecting a quiet
> sunny day. We get a lot of those in mid-September, but it's no sure thing.

The wind might not be too bad a problem for a "live" recording if
you are close micing and using DI's. I have mixed a *lot* of bands for
broadcast outdoors on 6th Ave and 48th Street in Manhattan (at least
according to my resume), where it can be a quite windy and noisy
environment. But in a situation where cardiod Lavaliers on hosts gave
me unacceptably loud wind and rubbing noises, close and mid miced
cardiods never gave me wind noise that I could notice in context, maybe
because the bands play loud outdoors and a little ambience helps for a
live feel. It really bugs me when I see a band on TV and when they
are introduced the whole soundstage switches into a totally artificial
one, obviously a digital reverb world.

I didn't use compression much either, mostly relying on peak
limiting with automakeup gain, which helps keep the noise floor down.
Typical mics I've used were Beta 58's/57's on vox and guitars, bass and
keys DI, Sennheiser E602 or RE20 on kick or sax, Akg 414 B-ULS in
cardiod drum overheads/on brass, and Crown CM700's with the foams for
choirs. Sometimes the Oktava MC012's/cardiod. The 414's would go up
over the drummers right shoulder without a windscreen, also I used them
to mic brass/sax sections of the Navy Show band and I never had
unacceptable wind noise. Kenny Loggins, Styx, Country bands, wasn't a
problem for me.

Might be prudent to DI as much as possible and have a few omnis
or RE15's which reject noise pretty well available, or if foams aren't
enough maybe switch a 414 into omni and baffle one side to cut down
ambience.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV/Post Audio Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:35:36 PM

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In article <de4ode$j1s$1@panix2.panix.com> kludge@panix.com writes:

> Put fans in ALL racks, with filters, blowing in. This keeps the rack
> at positive pressure and filled up with filtered dust-free air. Change
> filters regularly.

Twice a day in some of the places I've worked.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:54:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

WillStG wrote:
>
> The wind might not be too bad a problem for a "live" recording if
> you are close micing and using DI's. I have mixed a *lot* of bands for
> broadcast outdoors on 6th Ave and 48th Street in Manhattan (at least
> according to my resume), where it can be a quite windy and noisy
> environment. But in a situation where cardiod Lavaliers on hosts gave
> me unacceptably loud wind and rubbing noises, close and mid miced
> cardiods never gave me wind noise that I could notice in context, maybe
> because the bands play loud outdoors and a little ambience helps for a
> live feel. It really bugs me when I see a band on TV and when they
> are introduced the whole soundstage switches into a totally artificial
> one, obviously a digital reverb world.
>
> I didn't use compression much either, mostly relying on peak
> limiting with automakeup gain, which helps keep the noise floor down.
> Typical mics I've used were Beta 58's/57's on vox and guitars, bass and
> keys DI, Sennheiser E602 or RE20 on kick or sax, Akg 414 B-ULS in
> cardiod drum overheads/on brass, and Crown CM700's with the foams for
> choirs. Sometimes the Oktava MC012's/cardiod. The 414's would go up
> over the drummers right shoulder without a windscreen, also I used them
> to mic brass/sax sections of the Navy Show band and I never had
> unacceptable wind noise. Kenny Loggins, Styx, Country bands, wasn't a
> problem for me.
>
> Might be prudent to DI as much as possible....

A lot of that isn't left up to me. I usually get to participate in mic
selection, but since I'm not doing the live sound, I only have so much
influence. Typically, the band has a tech rider that's going to tell me
pretty well what gets miked and what gets DI'd. Of course, the house
sound guy should be just as concerned about wind noise as I am, so we'd
be collaborating on solving that problem.

The only mics that won't be shared with the house system are my audience
and/or ambience mics. So those are the ones that I'll need to deal with
myself.

I'm still reserving judgement on whether or not I want to tackle this
one. The more I think about it, the more I think it may make sense to
wait for them to come back to an indoor venue. Besides, I've already got
my plate full with mixing a couple of concerts that I'm recording THIS
month - Kasey Chambers last weekend, and Rodney Crowell next week.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:08:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <43068df3$0$1578$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> usemylastname@cheerful.com writes:

> A lot of that isn't left up to me. I usually get to participate in mic
> selection, but since I'm not doing the live sound, I only have so much
> influence. Typically, the band has a tech rider that's going to tell me
> pretty well what gets miked and what gets DI'd.

Band? Folk festival? Tech rider? Most of the time we're lucky if we
can find out how many people will be getting up on stage. When you ask
"How many people sing?" and the answer is "Yes." you know you'll have a
lot of improvising around your best guess.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 6:45:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> < ...snip.. >
>
> Band? Folk festival? Tech rider? Most of the time we're lucky if we
> can find out how many people will be getting up on stage. When you ask
> "How many people sing?" and the answer is "Yes." you know you'll have a
> lot of improvising around your best guess.
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

Oh, so it's not just me. I try to train the "folk" but it doesn't
seem to work. Heck, there are times when I don't know
how many people will be on stage after the band starts.
" ...and we'd like to invite [ ... ] to come up ... "
" ...hey Joe, you got your musical saw? Why don't you
bring it in up..." etc. ;-) ;-}

Later...

Ron Capik
--
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 7:27:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <43068df3$0$1578$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> usemylastname@cheerful.com writes:
>
>>A lot of that isn't left up to me. I usually get to participate in mic
>>selection, but since I'm not doing the live sound, I only have so much
>>influence. Typically, the band has a tech rider that's going to tell me
>>pretty well what gets miked and what gets DI'd.
>
> Band? Folk festival? Tech rider? Most of the time we're lucky if we
> can find out how many people will be getting up on stage. When you ask
> "How many people sing?" and the answer is "Yes." you know you'll have a
> lot of improvising around your best guess.

<g> Yeah, I've seen a few of those. But these days, most of the groups
have a pretty specific setup. I'm not recording pickup bands, I'm
recording groups that generally are touring to support a record. They're
usually doing a similar show in each city, and they have a document of
some sort that tells us exactly what they need. It may not turn out to
be exactly correct, but it's usually pretty close.

Kasey Chambers showed 20 channels on her tech rider last week, and we
actually went with 18. So there were some minor changes, but for the
most part it went just like the rider said it would.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 10:54:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <430784be$0$1575$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> usemylastname@cheerful.com writes:

> I'm not recording pickup bands, I'm
> recording groups that generally are touring to support a record. They're
> usually doing a similar show in each city, and they have a document of
> some sort that tells us exactly what they need.

> Kasey Chambers showed 20 channels on her tech rider last week, and we
> actually went with 18. So there were some minor changes, but for the
> most part it went just like the rider said it would.

That's not what we call a "folk festival" but, yeah, if that's what
you need to record you'll probalby have all the information you need
in order to set them up the way they expect. On the other hand, what
you get when you record a group like that is pretty much what they've
already recorded, not quite as well played or sung, with lots of
background noise. But that's what makes live recordings live.

By the way, I heard two songs from the new Nickel Creek album on
the radio today. The first was an instrumental, Scotch and Chocolate
or something like that. I was in the kitchen fixing some iced tea at the
time and it caught my ear from the other room. I had never heard it
before but I guessed correctly who it was based on the playing style
and what I've been hearing about this new album. Later, I heard Tomorrow
is a Long Time from the same album and all through the song I was
wondering "who the heck is that and why are they doing that song
like that?"

Is that one of the things that grows on you?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 1:44:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> That's not what we call a "folk festival" but, yeah, if that's what
> you need to record you'll probalby have all the information you need
> in order to set them up the way they expect. On the other hand, what
> you get when you record a group like that is pretty much what they've
> already recorded, not quite as well played or sung, with lots of
> background noise. But that's what makes live recordings live.
>
> By the way, I heard two songs from the new Nickel Creek album on
> the radio today. The first was an instrumental, Scotch and Chocolate
> or something like that. I was in the kitchen fixing some iced tea at the
> time and it caught my ear from the other room. I had never heard it
> before but I guessed correctly who it was based on the playing style
> and what I've been hearing about this new album. Later, I heard Tomorrow
> is a Long Time from the same album and all through the song I was
> wondering "who the heck is that and why are they doing that song
> like that?"
>
> Is that one of the things that grows on you?

Those are two of the tracks that I might have expected you to like
(though not necessarily love). "Stumptown" would be another. But in
general I doubt that you're going to think much of this album. I think
there are quite a few tracks that you really won't like, and probably
won't grow to like. It's just not your cup of tea.

What didn't you like about their version of the Dylan song?

Incidentally, I note that the album hit the Billboard top 200 chart at
#17, which is roughly the same place the last one debuted. That first
week's sales takes in all the hard-core fans - it'll be interesting to
see whether it maintains that momentum. The real question is not whether
the folk world picks up on it, nor the country world. The real question
is whether or not it draws in an entirely new group of listeners. I
really have no idea how its going to do. VH1 seems to have picked up the
video - that's bound to help.

Tim O'Brien has TWO new albums out this week that might pique your
interest. Both seem to be mostly traditional material, with Fiddler's
Green taking on mostly celtic flavored material, and Cornbread Nation
falling more on this side of the Atlantic. Both are on Sugar Hill.

Rounder records has been reissuing some of their back catalog on CD.
They're cutting costs by putting the liner notes on the discs themselves
as PDF files. So the packaging is minimal. But they've put out the
original Mud Acres album from back in 1971 (the first Rounder record that
I ever bought, back when it was brand new). And material from Guy Van
Duser, and Vassar Clements, and many more - I can't remember them all
right now, but they're probably listed on the Rounder website.
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 3:25:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <4307dd16$0$1619$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> usemylastname@cheerful.com writes:

> What didn't you like about their version of the Dylan song?

The voice. This isn't a song that a little girl should be singing, and
she sounds like a little girl on this recording. That was the first
thing that struck me, even before I realized what song she was
singing.

> The real question is not whether
> the folk world picks up on it, nor the country world. The real question
> is whether or not it draws in an entirely new group of listeners.

That's what happened with the Oh Brother sound track and follow-on
albums. That created this "new group" of listeners and I suspect that
a good many of them will enjoy Nickel Creek.

> Tim O'Brien has TWO new albums out this week that might pique your
> interest. Both seem to be mostly traditional material, with Fiddler's
> Green taking on mostly celtic flavored material, and Cornbread Nation
> falling more on this side of the Atlantic. Both are on Sugar Hill.

I heard (on the same program as the Nickel Creek songs) a couple from
that album. I don't remember one, but the other was this clever song
"I'm Losing My Memory Over You" with cute computer references. Do the
filk sing country songs? If so, they'll pick this one up.

> Rounder records has been reissuing some of their back catalog on CD.
> They're cutting costs by putting the liner notes on the discs themselves
> as PDF files. So the packaging is minimal.

BRAAAAAKKKK! I really need to build a browser rack for my LPs. When
the Snuffy Jenkins and Pappy Sherrill (Rounder's first release) album
was new, I was young enough to search the floor level shelf. I'm still
using the same storage system 40 years later so I rarely get out those
old albums any more. I'll bet they still play, though.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 12:31:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I do a lot of outdoor recording. The main differences, in my opinion,
are (1) controlling wind, and (2) lack of natural reverb (depending on
the venue). Since you're not concerned about #2,... for wind, you may
need to upgrade your windscreens, as well as your mic stands (nothing
more sickening than watching your mic stand fall over and the mic split
in half - yep, been there). Sandbags on the mic stand legs can also help.

There is also the issue of how you're getting power. If it's a 100-foot
extension cord running across a crowded walkway, you might want to get
some liability insurance in case a spectator injures him/herself on
your equipment.

Dust can also be discouraging. And if it's midday, sun. Something to
keep the shade on you and your decks is useful.

Oh, and security can be a bit more problematic without rooms to stash
things in.

Scott


Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote:
: As most of you know, I do a lot of live concert recordings. For no
: obvious reason, it happens that I've never done one outdoors.

: Next month, I may need to do so.

: For those of you who have recorded live outdoor shows, what are the key
: differences, if any, from recording indoor shows?

: It seems to me that there is very little that I need to do differently.
: I'll still split the mics at the stage, set up some mics pointing into
: the audience, and record everything to my MDR.

: The biggest difference that I can think of is that I won't have any sort
: of natural room ambience, so I may have to rely more heavily on digital
: reverb when I mix the show. And the mics that I point into the audience
: will probably need to be more directional than usual - perhaps shotguns.

: Incidentally, my goal is to capture the performance, not necessarily the
: setting. So there is no particular need for my recording to sound like
: it was made outdoors. All that matters is that it represents the live
: performance well, along with the enthusiastic response of the audience at
: appropriate moments.
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 10:38:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

sgordon@changethisparttohardbat.com wrote:
> I do a lot of outdoor recording. The main differences, in my opinion,
> are (1) controlling wind, and (2) lack of natural reverb (depending on
> the venue).

Thanks. The concert in question took place this past Sunday, and I opted
not to record it. In hindsight, I'm glad I made that decision. The
weather was fine, and I don't think I'd have had many problems, but I've
heard this band do better performances than this one. I think I'll be
better off waiting for their next gig here.
!