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The Myth About 'Demo' Equipment

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August 27, 2005 1:30:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
- Oops!", etc.

I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

A_C

More about : myth demo equipment

Anonymous
August 27, 2005 1:30:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

> If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
> don't believe you.

I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
else's gear.

I'll bet he never went back to that store (for more reasons than
questioning the condition of their "demo" equipment). The clerk might
have a good memory.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 1:30:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C wrote:
> I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
> equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
> it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!
>
> Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
> Think about it... No single individual has a vested interest in its
> welfare... Any number of different people have access to it, including a
> fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
> with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
> - Oops!", etc.

It depends on who you get it from and what sort of warranty is offered.
If you buy direct from a manufacturer offering gear at a discount
that's been used for trade show demos, it usually comes with a good
warranty and they check it out fully before packing it up for
discounted sale.

If you buy a demo piece off the shelf from a dealer, you might get get
something that's been mishandled and generally the dealer doesn't know
enough about it to check it out fully. The kind of warranty you get is
usually the factory warranty (since it's never been sold, the factory
will honor it) and the dealer will almost always give you a reasonable
amount of time for you to check it out yourself and return it for a
full refund if you're not satisfied.

> For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
> were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

How do you know who to trust? I've bought very little gear from people
I don't know, and I've never had a bad deal, but there's so much gear
sold by people who know so little about it that the chances of getting
less than you expected are not at all remote.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 1:30:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

There are good reasons for buying "demo" -- if it still has the full
warranty.

One reason is that it's passed the point of "infant mortality". Another is
that you might get a very attractive price. (Some dealers no doubt use "this
is demo gear" to grant a discount when they're not "supposed" to.)

I would not turn up my nose at demo gear.
August 27, 2005 2:35:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 27 Aug 2005 07:27:36 -0700, "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

>I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
>to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
>enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
>else's gear.

That's precisely my point... Demo gear is subjected to things a
thoughtful owner would never do.

A_C
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 2:50:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I agree. KISS and Murphy.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 3:39:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>On 27 Aug 2005 07:27:36 -0700, "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
>>to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
>>enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
>>else's gear.
>
>That's precisely my point... Demo gear is subjected to things a
>thoughtful owner would never do.

EVERYTHING in a commercial studio is subjected to things a thoughtful
owner would never do.
--scott

What? You drove away the remote truck without noticing one of the
multipins was still plugged in? No problem....
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 4:37:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Depends on the application. One of the requirements for full-range
> studio monitors in many applications is that they _cannot_ be damaged
> even by idiots.
>
> The original poster, though, specified line level equipment specifically
> to eliminate speakers.

He did not suggest anything that eliminated idiots, however.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 4:41:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> I believe him, because I have been to Sound by Singer.

> They are high end dealers that have fallen into some of the worst pitfalls
> of the high end industry. They sell boutique gear, much of which sells
> very few units, and therefore which doesn't get the degree of testing and
> careful engineering that pro audio gear does. There is also a great
> obsession (and a warranted one in my opinion) in the high end industry
> about removing anything that could affect the sound adversely in any way,
> and simplifying circuits as much as possible. Sadly this means that things
> like clamp diodes are complete anathema to these folks.

Ah, so we're not talking about studio or road gear here, we're talking
about audiophule stuff? Heck, they probably DID have power amplifier
outputs on the demo room patchbay.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 6:53:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:30:24 -0400, Agent_C wrote:

> I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
> meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and I
> took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta D/A
> converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew fuses on 2
> components, as well as an op-amp in the bay.

What kind of patchbay has opamps in it?
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:20:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C wrote:

> I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
> equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
> it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!
>
> Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
> Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
> welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
> fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
> with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
> - Oops!", etc.
>
> I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
> meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
> I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
> D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
> fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
> Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
> we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.
>
> For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
> were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
don't believe you.

Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
'demoing' gear ?

Is this a troll btw ?

Graham
August 27, 2005 7:20:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:20:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
>don't believe you.
>
>Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
>'demoing' gear ?
>
>Is this a troll btw ?

Are you stupid?

- Over-driving the equipment, recklessly

- Blowing internal components by interconnecting while still powered
up.

-Miss wiring

The list is long…

A_C
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:20:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
>don't believe you.

I believe him, because I have been to Sound by Singer. But I agree completely
that the vast majority of stuff they sell shouldn't be on sale.

>Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
>'demoing' gear ?

Personally I don't care about a few dings and scratches here and there.
After it's been on the road with me for a decade, it'll be a lot more beat
up. If it's good equipment, it can take that. If it's bad equipment, I'd
rather find out as soon as possible.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:41:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Depends on the application. One of the requirements for full-range
>> studio monitors in many applications is that they _cannot_ be damaged
>> even by idiots.
>>
>> The original poster, though, specified line level equipment specifically
>> to eliminate speakers.
>
>He did not suggest anything that eliminated idiots, however.

That's true. And while modern speaker protection devices can do an excellent
job of both clamping transients that cause rapid movement of the cone that
may tear the cone or pop the coil out of the gap, and also longer-lived
high level signals that may overheat the voice coil, EVEN SO it's amazing
how much damage one drunk with a forklift can do.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:47:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
> > don't believe you.
>
> I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
> to a mic preamp input or something like that.

In which case the amplifier output should never have been on the patch bay !

> People who aren't careful
> enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
> else's gear.

Yup.

Graham
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:49:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C wrote:

> On 27 Aug 2005 07:27:36 -0700, "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he plugged an amplifier output
> >to a mic preamp input or something like that. People who aren't careful
> >enough not to do that have no business fooling around with someone
> >else's gear.
>
> That's precisely my point... Demo gear is subjected to things a
> thoughtful owner would never do.

Nothing that's on a patch bay should be 'damageable' by cross-patching. If
it happened it was defective product design that was at fault..

Graham
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:53:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:20:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
> >don't believe you.
> >
> >Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
> >'demoing' gear ?
> >
> >Is this a troll btw ?
>
> Are you stupid?

I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer actually who smelt a rat.


> - Over-driving the equipment, recklessly

You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
unless it's very defectively designed.

In fact almost no electronics can be 'overdriven' to destruction these days.
OK - valve ( toob ) amps will go bang if the speaker gets disonnected while
it's working but just about everything else is bulletproof.

Btw - it's possible to make valve amps tolerant of even that condition
actually.


> - Blowing internal components by interconnecting while still powered
> up.
>
> -Miss wiring
>
> The list is long…

None of those things should damage *competently designed* equipment.


Graham
August 27, 2005 8:54:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
>unless it's very defectively designed.

Speakers?

A_C
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:54:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43108C97.FA3FCE15@hotmail.com...
> Agent_C wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:20:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I
>> >simply
>> >don't believe you.
>> >
>> >Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
>> >'demoing' gear ?
>> >
>> >Is this a troll btw ?
>>
>> Are you stupid?
>
> I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer actually who smelt a rat.

Would that be:
"I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer actually,who smelt a rat."
or:
"I'm a very experienced pro-audio designer,actually who smelt a rat."
Is there a difference? ..hmmm hehe
:-)
req
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:54:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
><rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
>>unless it's very defectively designed.
>
>Speakers?

Depends on the application. One of the requirements for full-range
studio monitors in many applications is that they _cannot_ be damaged
even by idiots.

The original poster, though, specified line level equipment specifically
to eliminate speakers.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:56:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
> >don't believe you.
>
> I believe him, because I have been to Sound by Singer. But I agree completely
> that the vast majority of stuff they sell shouldn't be on sale.

You mean they're selling trash ?


> >Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
> >'demoing' gear ?
>
> Personally I don't care about a few dings and scratches here and there.
> After it's been on the road with me for a decade, it'll be a lot more beat
> up. If it's good equipment, it can take that. If it's bad equipment, I'd
> rather find out as soon as possible.

Indeed. I'd rather get money off for a few scratches that'll soon be there anyway.

I've actually purchased a fair bit of fully pre-owned gear over the years - not
just demo stock - and never regretted it.

Graham
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:56:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
>> >don't believe you.
>>
>> I believe him, because I have been to Sound by Singer. But I agree completely
>> that the vast majority of stuff they sell shouldn't be on sale.
>
>You mean they're selling trash ?

They are high end dealers that have fallen into some of the worst pitfalls
of the high end industry. They sell boutique gear, much of which sells
very few units, and therefore which doesn't get the degree of testing and
careful engineering that pro audio gear does. There is also a great
obsession (and a warranted one in my opinion) in the high end industry
about removing anything that could affect the sound adversely in any way,
and simplifying circuits as much as possible. Sadly this means that things
like clamp diodes are complete anathema to these folks.

There is a huge amount of high end gear out there which is absolutely
trash. On the other hand, there is also some gear out there which is
very delicate but sounds good enough to warrant the delicacy. There
is also some gear out there that is built by a few boutique vendors
that is of very high quality and is both rugged and excellent sounding.

Take the Krell power amps and the Ongaku power amps as examples of
both extremes.

Note also that there is a lot of patently fraudulent equipment sold
in the high-end world. Then again, occasionally there is something
which seems fraudulent but actually improves the sound.

>I've actually purchased a fair bit of fully pre-owned gear over the years - not
>just demo stock - and never regretted it.

Almost everything I own was purchased used. Even the cat.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 9:36:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
> >unless it's very defectively designed.
>
> Speakers?

I said *line level equipment*. I expected you to know what that means.

Graham
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 9:36:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:43109688.B0EED3C7@hotmail.com
> Agent_C wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a
>>> way that'll damage it unless it's very defectively
>>> designed.
>>
>> Speakers?
>
> I said *line level equipment*. I expected you to know
> what that means.

Playing the devil's advocate, self-powered speakers are line
level equipment.

However, I agree with you that it is reasonable to expect
that self-powered speakers are also self-protecting.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 11:46:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Agent_C <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:53:59 +0100, Pooh Bear
> ><rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
> >>unless it's very defectively designed.
> >
> >Speakers?
>
> Depends on the application. One of the requirements for full-range
> studio monitors in many applications is that they _cannot_ be damaged
> even by idiots.

Indeed, there are various methods available to the designer to make sure of this.
If a speaker burns out when used in its intended application, it's likely to be
simply 'bad design'.


Graham
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 11:56:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >
> >> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >If you can *blow* gear by patching it - it shouldn't be on sale. I simply
> >> >don't believe you.
> >>
> >> I believe him, because I have been to Sound by Singer. But I agree completely
> >> that the vast majority of stuff they sell shouldn't be on sale.
> >
> >You mean they're selling trash ?
>
> They are high end dealers that have fallen into some of the worst pitfalls
> of the high end industry. They sell boutique gear, much of which sells
> very few units, and therefore which doesn't get the degree of testing and
> careful engineering that pro audio gear does.

You could also say simply that pro-audio designers know what tends to break stuff and
take measures to avoid it. I honestly don't need to agonise over it. To me it's just
plain 'good design'.


> There is also a great
> obsession (and a warranted one in my opinion) in the high end industry
> about removing anything that could affect the sound adversely in any way,
> and simplifying circuits as much as possible. Sadly this means that things
> like clamp diodes are complete anathema to these folks.

Foolish. It's easy to demonstrate that such things are sonically transparent ( if you
accept scientific principles rather than voodoo ) but when you're dealing with ppl
who reckon the direction the cable is pointing affects the sound............


> There is a huge amount of high end gear out there which is absolutely
> trash. On the other hand, there is also some gear out there which is
> very delicate but sounds good enough to warrant the delicacy.

Let me at it ! I'll make it robust. I'm good at that ! :-)


> There
> is also some gear out there that is built by a few boutique vendors
> that is of very high quality and is both rugged and excellent sounding.
>
> Take the Krell power amps and the Ongaku power amps as examples of
> both extremes.

I've met Krells. Almost 'over-enginered' but none the worse for it.


> Note also that there is a lot of patently fraudulent equipment sold
> in the high-end world. Then again, occasionally there is something
> which seems fraudulent but actually improves the sound.
>
> >I've actually purchased a fair bit of fully pre-owned gear over the years - not
> >just demo stock - and never regretted it.
>
> Almost everything I own was purchased used. Even the cat.

I once knew a fantastic formerly feral cat. She 'moved in' with my g/f and family.
What a character !


Graham
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 11:56:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> There is also a great
>> obsession (and a warranted one in my opinion) in the high end industry
>> about removing anything that could affect the sound adversely in any way,
>> and simplifying circuits as much as possible. Sadly this means that things
>> like clamp diodes are complete anathema to these folks.
>
>Foolish. It's easy to demonstrate that such things are sonically transparent ( if you
>accept scientific principles rather than voodoo ) but when you're dealing with ppl
>who reckon the direction the cable is pointing affects the sound............

I don't know if I believe that all the time. You'd think that a clamp diode
that is turned off wouldn't affect the sound at all since all it's adding is
a little capacitance. But I've been fiddling around for six years on and
off trying to get a preamp with a front end built from the THAT transistor
arrays, and none of the protection methods I have tried have been totally
inaudible and also effective.

I have several times just considered throwing the front end away and using
a transformer.

I keep promising a DIY preamp article project for Recording magazine, and
this is why it's not happening. That and the fact that I can't figure out
any way to reduce power supply costs without also affecting the sound.

>> There is a huge amount of high end gear out there which is absolutely
>> trash. On the other hand, there is also some gear out there which is
>> very delicate but sounds good enough to warrant the delicacy.
>
>Let me at it ! I'll make it robust. I'm good at that ! :-)

You want a preamp design to poke at? It's nothing fancy...

>> There
>> is also some gear out there that is built by a few boutique vendors
>> that is of very high quality and is both rugged and excellent sounding.
>>
>> Take the Krell power amps and the Ongaku power amps as examples of
>> both extremes.
>
>I've met Krells. Almost 'over-enginered' but none the worse for it.

I approve. They sound good, they work well, they don't break.

The Ongaku costs substantially more but cannot say any of these things.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 1:11:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >
> >> There is also a great
> >> obsession (and a warranted one in my opinion) in the high end industry
> >> about removing anything that could affect the sound adversely in any way,
> >> and simplifying circuits as much as possible. Sadly this means that things
> >> like clamp diodes are complete anathema to these folks.
> >
> >Foolish. It's easy to demonstrate that such things are sonically transparent ( if you
> >accept scientific principles rather than voodoo ) but when you're dealing with ppl
> >who reckon the direction the cable is pointing affects the sound............
>
> I don't know if I believe that all the time. You'd think that a clamp diode
> that is turned off wouldn't affect the sound at all since all it's adding is
> a little capacitance.

It does indeed add a *little* capacitance. Barely worth mentioning unless you reckon you
need Megahertz bandwidth to recreate audio like the audiophools.


> But I've been fiddling around for six years on and
> off trying to get a preamp with a front end built from the THAT transistor
> arrays, and none of the protection methods I have tried have been totally
> inaudible and also effective.

I'd be interested to hear more.


> I have several times just considered throwing the front end away and using
> a transformer.

But then you're listening to the transformer instead of the pre-amp !


> I keep promising a DIY preamp article project for Recording magazine, and
> this is why it's not happening. That and the fact that I can't figure out
> any way to reduce power supply costs without also affecting the sound.

Look. I'll sort out your psu. My own designs for commercial use have typically 200-300uV
of audio band noise on the rails. I can easily do better still.


> >> There is a huge amount of high end gear out there which is absolutely
> >> trash. On the other hand, there is also some gear out there which is
> >> very delicate but sounds good enough to warrant the delicacy.
> >
> >Let me at it ! I'll make it robust. I'm good at that ! :-)
>
> You want a preamp design to poke at? It's nothing fancy...

Show me !

The hotmail addy works btw.


> >> There
> >> is also some gear out there that is built by a few boutique vendors
> >> that is of very high quality and is both rugged and excellent sounding.
> >>
> >> Take the Krell power amps and the Ongaku power amps as examples of
> >> both extremes.
> >
> >I've met Krells. Almost 'over-enginered' but none the worse for it.
>
> I approve. They sound good, they work well, they don't break.

Very good principles.


> The Ongaku costs substantially more but cannot say any of these things.

I'm not familiar with that design.


Graham
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 1:11:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But I've been fiddling around for six years on and
>> off trying to get a preamp with a front end built from the THAT transistor
>> arrays, and none of the protection methods I have tried have been totally
>> inaudible and also effective.
>
>I'd be interested to hear more.

Bug me and I'll fax you a schematic. It's really just a long-tailed
pair driving a couple 2N5088s. Nothing even remotely innovative.

>> I have several times just considered throwing the front end away and using
>> a transformer.
>
>But then you're listening to the transformer instead of the pre-amp !

Right, which I was trying to avoid. On the other hand, it's free voltage
gain! And then I could use an EF86 on the front and forget about protection.
And spend ten times as much on a power supply.

>> I keep promising a DIY preamp article project for Recording magazine, and
>> this is why it's not happening. That and the fact that I can't figure out
>> any way to reduce power supply costs without also affecting the sound.
>
>Look. I'll sort out your psu. My own designs for commercial use have typically 200-300uV
>of audio band noise on the rails. I can easily do better still.

+/-36V regulated, plus a regulated +48V for phantom, using only parts in
the Digi-Key catalogue, total parts cost under $25. (The good news is that
Digi-Key stocks the Talema toroids, or whatever they are calling themselves
now). If you can do it under $20, that would be even better. MOVs on the
input are nice but the Talema things have such high noise rejection that
no common-mode choke is required.

>> The Ongaku costs substantially more but cannot say any of these things.
>
>I'm not familiar with that design.

Do a web search. It was one of the amps that first started the whole SE
triode explosion. The problem is that it doesn't sound good.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 1:11:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:D eqk7h$9sa$1@panix2.panix.com
>
>>> The Ongaku costs substantially more but cannot say any
>>> of these things.
>>
>> I'm not familiar with that design.

> Do a web search. It was one of the amps that first
> started the whole SE triode explosion. The problem is
> that it doesn't sound good.

Scott, you mean the Ongaku amp whose schematic can be found
at:

http://www.drtube.com/

ongaku.gif ?
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:47:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:08:35 -0400, Agent_C
<Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

>>You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a way that'll damage it
>>unless it's very defectively designed.
>
>Speakers?

Which part of "line level" don't you understand?
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:47:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com>
wrote in message
news:ih53h11b938j4h7c58s2109vkgsrnlp230@4ax.com
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:08:35 -0400, Agent_C
> <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>> You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a
>>> way that'll damage it unless it's very defectively
>>> designed.
>>
>> Speakers?
>
> Which part of "line level" don't you understand?

The part where powered speakers have line level inputs? ;-)
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 5:08:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in news:jLCdnTSricJ2AozeRVn-
jw@comcast.com:

> "Laurence Payne" <lpayne1NOSPAM@dsl.pipexSPAMTRAP.com>
> wrote in message
> news:ih53h11b938j4h7c58s2109vkgsrnlp230@4ax.com
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:08:35 -0400, Agent_C
>> <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> You simply can't 'overdrive' line level equpiment in a
>>>> way that'll damage it unless it's very defectively
>>>> designed.
>>>
>>> Speakers?
>>
>> Which part of "line level" don't you understand?
>
> The part where powered speakers have line level inputs? ;-)

That's still not a speaker. It's an amplifier in a speaker box.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:04:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:431076C6.4CE6E79E@hotmail.com...




> Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
> 'demoing' gear ?
>

Only thing I can think of is plugging in the wrong wall-wart power supply.
That can generate some smoke.


Gareth.



> Graham
>
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:04:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gareth Magennis <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote:
>"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
>> 'demoing' gear ?
>
>Only thing I can think of is plugging in the wrong wall-wart power supply.
>That can generate some smoke.

I assure you that NOTHING at Sound By Singer would be seen sporting a
wall-wart.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:58:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>didn't know what I was doing and blew
>fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
>Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
>we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.

Did you disclose what you had done to Andy Singer?


"Agent_C" <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lhq0h15pr20hmfc0jisegtldto1l8doo8k@4ax.com...
> I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
> equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
> it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!
>
> Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
> Think about it. No single individual has a vested interest in its
> welfare. Any number of different people have access to it, including a
> fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
> with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
> - Oops!", etc.
>
> I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
> meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
> I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
> D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
> fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
> Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
> we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.
>
> For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
> were from trusted individuals, not merchants.
>
> A_C
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 8:50:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:431076C6.4CE6E79E@hotmail.com...
>
>
>
>
> > Now - realistically - what damage do you think can be *really* done by
> > 'demoing' gear ?

Idiots torquing switches and pots.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 8:27:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <lhq0h15pr20hmfc0jisegtldto1l8doo8k@4ax.com>,
Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com says...
>
>
>I'm always a little amused when someone selling a piece of high-end
>equipment touts the fact that it's a 'Demo', suggesting somehow that
>it's just short of new. Nothing could be farther from the truth!
>
>Demo units are generally subject to much more abuse than home units.
>Think about it… No single individual has a vested interest in its
>welfare… Any number of different people have access to it, including a
>fair number of stringers, who have nothing to lose by 'experimenting'
>with it; "Dude, how loud are these babies?" - "Whats this button do?
>- Oops!", etc.
>
>I remember one afternoon many years ago at Sound by Swindler (Ooops, I
>meant Sound by 'Singer'), where the salesman left the room briefly and
>I took my hand at the patch bay. I was anxious to compare one Theta
>D/A converter with another. I didn't know what I was doing and blew
>fuses on 2 components, as well as an op-amp in the bay. If you think
>Andy Singer ultimately disclosed that to the buyer of those 2 demos,
>we have a bridge here in New York that I'd be glad to sell you.
>
>For the record; the best experiences I've had buying used audio gear,
>were from trusted individuals, not merchants.

Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
trusted individual.
----------------
Alex
August 29, 2005 8:44:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:27:05 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu>
wrote:

>Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
>get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
>trusted individual.

Usually, but not always. Check out this auction on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5803...

The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
(probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...

A_C
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 2:01:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Agent_C wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:27:05 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
> >get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
> >trusted individual.
>
> Usually, but not always. Check out this auction on eBay:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5803...
>
> The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
> component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
> (probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...

" The positive and negative halves of the signal never touch "

Classic audiophoolery.

Graham
August 30, 2005 2:01:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:01:02 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>" The positive and negative halves of the signal never touch "
>
>Classic audiophoolery.

That's a whole other thing... I exchanged a few emails with this guy;
he's real piece of work. His price is also completely ridiculous. The
last Perreaux SM-6 sold for about $700.00 on Audiogon.

A_C
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 2:09:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 8/30/05 7:01, in article 4313778E.DF45BA73@hotmail.com, "Pooh Bear"
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:27:05 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Usually demo equipment comes with the same warranty as a new item, so you
>>> get more coverage from the manufacturer than you would buying from a a
>>> trusted individual.
>>
>> Usually, but not always. Check out this auction on eBay:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5803...
>>
>> The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
>> component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
>> (probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...
>
> " The positive and negative halves of the signal never touch "
>
> Classic audiophoolery.
>
> Graham

Congrats for spotting the scam.

You've been made a "junior bluebook valuation deputy"!
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 1:41:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.marketplace,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Agent_C" <Agent-C-hates-spam@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kfs6h1drltb872349gn8b53sfrmjjob7f2@4ax.com...

> The manufacturer offers a 5-year extended warranty on this particular
> component. Yet the seller would have you believe that in all that time
> (probably 6 years) he only put 50 hours on it. Yeah... Right...


I have a DA-88 which fits that scenario, except it's more like 12 years.

geoff
!