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Choosing a Tascam DM24 or a Yamaha 01v96?

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Anonymous
September 5, 2005 6:04:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,

I currently have a Mackie 32-8 analog console in my own studio. But
this is a big, BIG animal!! I need something smaller in size,
especially for transport and xtra space in my studio.

I currently have a DM 24 from a friend, just to check it out.
And at the studio's, where i also work, there are yamaha dm1000.

So, i tested the dm 24, and my initial thoughts were; bit of a plastic
look and feel and the sound quality, is smaller, narrower than my
analog console.

Any opinions on what to choose?

(every post i read is pretty happy with the dm 24. is there someone out
there who also did a comparison between an analog an this dm 24 or the
01v96?)

Thanks guys!
September 5, 2005 7:54:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'd go with the Yamaha. Found the pres on the DM24 a big PIA. But ppl.
say the upgraded pres are a lot better (it's the taper) The yamahas
work a treat. And if you use steinberg softwares (version 3 upwards)
they have excellent integration. Even other DAW's are better supported.
Also that the DM24 is out of production. Been replaced with the DM3200.
dont know much bout it though...

Sidhu




SeriousMusic wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I currently have a Mackie 32-8 analog console in my own studio. But
> this is a big, BIG animal!! I need something smaller in size,
> especially for transport and xtra space in my studio.
>
> I currently have a DM 24 from a friend, just to check it out.
> And at the studio's, where i also work, there are yamaha dm1000.
>
> So, i tested the dm 24, and my initial thoughts were; bit of a plastic
> look and feel and the sound quality, is smaller, narrower than my
> analog console.
>
> Any opinions on what to choose?
>
> (every post i read is pretty happy with the dm 24. is there someone out
> there who also did a comparison between an analog an this dm 24 or the
> 01v96?)
>
> Thanks guys!
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 9:53:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sidhu wrote:
> Found the pres on the DM24 a big PIA. But ppl.
> say the upgraded pres are a lot better (it's the taper)

As far as I know, there's no upgrade to the preamps in the DM24. The
gain trim pots were changed to something that's closer to linear with
rotation. It doesn't make things sound better, it just makes it easier
to use (which is a good thing).

A friend has reported intermittent problems on a DM24 with playing back
a stereo recording through the S/PDIF input. He's been through all the
word clock and cabling games, and sometimes it just drops out
momentarily. He's had it back at TASCAM, who can't reproduce the
problem (of course). I haven't heard this complaint from others, but
the fact that his does it and TASCAM can't fix it (and hasn't offered
to replace it) is of no help to him.

That in itself is not justification for buying a Yamaha instead of the
TASCAM. I take it the original poster is thinking of buying used, since
the DM24 is no longer made. Be careful whatever you choose.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 2:18:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I currently have a Mackie 32-8 analog console in my own studio. But
> this is a big, BIG animal!! I need something smaller in size,
> especially for transport and xtra space in my studio.
>
> I currently have a DM 24 from a friend, just to check it out.
> And at the studio's, where i also work, there are yamaha dm1000.
>
> So, i tested the dm 24, and my initial thoughts were; bit of a plastic
> look and feel and the sound quality, is smaller, narrower than my
> analog console.
>
> Any opinions on what to choose?
>
> (every post i read is pretty happy with the dm 24. is there someone out
> there who also did a comparison between an analog an this dm 24 or the
> 01v96?)

The DM24 is a good value for the money, automation, digital I/O,
and the firewire card making it a DAW interface is great. It also works
well as a controller for Cubase SX3 and Nuendo 3.

But it's not problem free either. Early model DM24's had 3 main
problems, if you left it on and it got hot the LED screens would fail,
and some of the power supplies had a bad run of caps or something. On
Tascamforums.com some users found replacement screens for $35 and
recapping a bad supply isn't too hard, so if you are hands on about
such things you can deal with any problems that arise. The micpres
thyemselves BTW weren't the problem, it was they put the wrong taper
pots on early runs of DM24's. But ccording to what Tascam support told
me, a DM24 that was labeled "Version 2" on the box *should* have had
the proper taper pots installed (as well as version 2 software. To use
the Firewire card so it's a DAW interface, you have to upgrade to
Version 3 software.)

The DM24 is being replaced with the DM3200 - more auxes, more
features, same price.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV/Audio Post Guy
"The large prit giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 5:00:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,
thanx all, for replying!

But i do not read anything about the sound quality in comparison with a
analog desk. Anyone has the same findings as i do? I find the Tascam
somewhat less deeper and less warmer than my current analog desk. I
suppose this has to do with te preamps inside of the Tascam. Does any
one agree?
Is a 01v96 warmer than the tascam?

And yes, the one that's being offered to me is a secondhand one.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 7:41:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic wrote:

> But i do not read anything about the sound quality in comparison with a
> analog desk. Anyone has the same findings as i do? I find the Tascam
> somewhat less deeper and less warmer than my current analog desk.

People often find that this is the case when making the comparison, but
it really insn't a very fair comparison because there are too many
variables. Of cousre it depends on what analog and digital mixer you're
comparing. And throw in things like EQ and you get a completely
different set of sounds when you turn a knob.

> Is a 01v96 warmer than the tascam?

Digital consoles don't have "warmth" so that's not really a valid
question. You really won't get a concensus on this, so start looking at
features. When you decide which one you'd prefer if ti sounded OK, then
find one to play with and see how it sounds to you. Or just buy it,
play with it for a while, and be prepared to turn it around and get
something else if you aren't happy with it.

You won't get the perfect answer for free. Be prepared to pay at least
the cost of shipping and reselling, and make the decision for yourself,
in your own working environment. If you're being "offered" a DM24, it
might be slightly below the going rate (unless "offered" means "I found
one up for auction on eBay" and you don't know the price yet) which
means that you won't lose a bundle if you decide it's the wrong console
for you. But check out the market first to be sure that you'll be able
to sell it if you don't like it.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 8:42:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"People often find that this is the case when making the comparison,
but
it really insn't a very fair comparison because there are too many
variables. Of cousre it depends on what analog and digital mixer you're

comparing. And throw in things like EQ and you get a completely
different set of sounds when you turn a knob. "

Sure, i know there's a difference in the comparison. But at the end
it's about
how does the whole package sound? My believe is that the DM doesn't
quite hit
the spot soundwise. At the moment I have a combination with a Mackie
analog 32-8 and
Genelec 1032. If I simply play a cd (any cd for that matter) through
the mackie, it sounds deeper, more
dynamic, I can place the instruments in the soundfield and so on.
If I connect the DM in between the cd player and my genelecs,
I just miss those definitions in sound. So in that respect I'll
probably stick with my analog mixer.
(Try nicely mixed CD's from Tuck and Patti, Eric Clapton, Herbie
Hancock. All with pretty good mixes on them. Nicely placed bass, kick,
vocals and reverbs.. )


One other thing; i cannot turn up the gain a bit, I hear the overloads
in the signalpath. So that means I carefully have to make gain
adjustments in order to record a clean signal. And keep my levels
pretty low (like 20db under...)

Also I found the tascam to produce a lot of noise with all faders down.
That's a no go for me.

So now I've found a few points favouring my analog desk. I'm not saying
this Tascam is bad, not at all, but it sure doesn't fulfill my
expectations. For my television and radio work, I work with both the
yamaha dm2000 and dm 1000 (which i also find sounding smallboxed), ssl,
sony, studers and many others. I know my standards are pretty high, but
it's never wrong to aim for the best in my own studio, is it?

"If you're being "offered" a DM24, it
might be slightly below the going rate (unless "offered" means "I found

one up for auction on eBay" and you don't know the price yet) which
means that you won't lose a bundle if you decide it's the wrong console

for you."
The price for the DM24 offered to me is 1700 euros, like I said, it
comes from a friend. But that is a lot of money for a desk that doesn't
satisfy.

"But check out the market first to be sure that you'll be able
to sell it if you don't like it. "
I sure will, thanks for the tip anyway!

But now, I still would like to have a small portable mixer, with 24
inputs and inserts, so I figured, that a digital console can offer
that, and more. The next step is to try the 01v96 V2 with all it's
extensions. No test done yet. Anybody got any info on noiselevels,
soundquality (and i mean quality as in how does it sound, not the specs
like 48kHz/24bit, they all have the same specs).
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 10:11:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic wrote:

> Sure, i know there's a difference in the comparison. But at the end
> it's about how does the whole package sound? My believe is that the DM
> doesn't quite hit the spot soundwise.

Then it sounds like you've made your decision. There's no reason (other
than from someone who has one for sale) for anyone to try to convince
you otherwise.

> At the moment I have a combination with a Mackie
> analog 32-8 and Genelec 1032. If I simply play a cd (any cd for that matter)
> through the mackie, it sounds deeper, more dynamic, I can place the
> instruments in the soundfield and so on.

> If I connect the DM in between the cd player and my genelecs,
> I just miss those definitions in sound. So in that respect I'll
> probably stick with my analog mixer.

How are you putting the DM24 between the CD player and the speakers?
Are you adding an A/D converter and a D/A converter? The D/A converter
in the mixer may not be up to snuff. If your CD player has a digital
output, try to borrow a really good D/A converter, connect that to your
monitors, and compare:

- The CD going direct to the D/A converter

- The CD going into a digital input of the mixer, and from the digital
output of the mixer to the D/A converter

- The output of the D/A converter going to an analog input of your
analog mixer, then to the monitors.

> One other thing; i cannot turn up the gain a bit, I hear the overloads
> in the signalpath. So that means I carefully have to make gain
> adjustments in order to record a clean signal. And keep my levels
> pretty low (like 20db under...)

I'm not clear on what you're doing here. What gain? You should not be
overloading anything, but it's not unusual to have to adjust the
monitor gain in order to compare the sources at equal volume. It's not
an easy test to perform accurately, and then there's the "double blind"
issue that will most likely rear its ugly head in this discussion soon.

> Also I found the tascam to produce a lot of noise with all faders down.
> That's a no go for me.

This could be an analog gain structure issue.

> So now I've found a few points favouring my analog desk. I'm not saying
> this Tascam is bad, not at all, but it sure doesn't fulfill my
> expectations.

Then give it back. If you don't need a digital console, keep using what
you have. One of the most important reasons why people use low end
digital consoles is for the automation and ability to reset the console
to the state where you left off the last time you worked on the
project. While there may be a lower noise floor, particularly if you
can go into it digitally, and there are almost always more geegaws
available (like dynamics on every channel and fully parametric EQ),
though you have more tools with which to perfect a mix, you don't
necessarily have better sound from input to output. On the other hand,
the Mackie 8-bus isn't exactly a contemporary standard of comparison so
there may be some deficiency there that, in your head, translates to
better imaging or greater detail. Distortion can do that.

> I know my standards are pretty high, but
> it's never wrong to aim for the best in my own studio, is it?

No, but if you want the best, you should be looking at the best, not
looking down at the low end, products that were designed for people who
can't afford the best.

> The price for the DM24 offered to me is 1700 euros, like I said, it
> comes from a friend. But that is a lot of money for a desk that doesn't
> satisfy.

$25 would be too much if it didn't satisfy you.

> But now, I still would like to have a small portable mixer, with 24
> inputs and inserts, so I figured, that a digital console can offer
> that, and more. The next step is to try the 01v96 V2 with all it's
> extensions.

24 channels with inserts isn't going to be very small and portable. And
with a console like the 01 series where you don't get very much until
you start buying optional I/O cards, you really have to count
carefully. You can read the spec sheets and figure out what you really
have. It's "small" because it doesn't have all the faders, which can
make operation clumsy when working remotely.

Given how picky you are, you'd best make the "sound quality" comparison
yourself.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 11:38:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SeriousMusic" <tjerk30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125993654.396968.199580@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> Hi,
> thanx all, for replying!
>
> But i do not read anything about the sound quality in
> comparison with a analog desk. Anyone has the same
> findings as i do? I find the Tascam somewhat less deeper
> and less warmer than my current analog desk. I suppose
> this has to do with te preamps inside of the Tascam. Does
> any one agree?

Consider your option to add external preamps with built-in
conversion including as the following:

Behringer ADA8000
M-Audio Octane
Aphex 1788
Focusrite Octopre
Presonus Digimax
etc.

If you want to exploit the full capabilities of the console,
you're going to add one or more of these, anyway.

> Is a 01v96 warmer than the tascam?

Same alternatives exist for it.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 12:50:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SeriousMusic" <tjerk30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126006957.324414.160230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

> But now, I still would like to have a small portable
> mixer, with 24 inputs and inserts, so I figured, that a
> digital console can offer that, and more.

Until you go several notches past entry-level digital mixers
(e.g. 3 steps above the 01V96), you don't have 24 mic pres.
You also don't have 24 insert jacks.

If you want 24 mic pres and 24 insert jacks built into the
console, you're talking DM2000-land. Even the 02R96 has only
16 mic pres and 16 insert jacks on-board. The other 8 analog
inputs on the 02R96 are line level and lack insert jacks.

Hence my other post about outboard interfaces. They are
either a necessary evil or a wonderful expansion
opportunity, depending on how you feel about outboard
hardware.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 2:16:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,

Thanx mike, but it seems you're totally missing my point.

True, i'm picky, but isn't every engineer or musician?
Given the fact that i'm asking for an opinion on certain desks, doesn't
mean I'm not in title of an opinion of my own. I just am lucky to have
a friend who borrows his desk and let me have a go with it.

It turns out this desk is not what i'm looking for. I expose my opinion
in order to measure it with others, maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong.
So dont start flaming me. After all, that is what this forum is all
about. (i'm not looking down on things, mike...just read better)

I'm looking for a better solution than the tascam, there cannot be
anything wrong with that.

That leaves the following...

Is there a portable digital desk, providing 24 inputs and 24 inserts
with a good sound? (yamaha orso?)

thanx
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 5:45:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic <tjerk30@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>True, i'm picky, but isn't every engineer or musician?

No, not at all. Sadly not at all. If everyone was picky, we wouldn't
have so many rotten-sounding records being made.

>Is there a portable digital desk, providing 24 inputs and 24 inserts
>with a good sound? (yamaha orso?)

The Yamahas are not bad, although the configuration is not very intuitive.
It's definitely worth checking out. If you want to insert an analogue
processor between a digital source and the console strip, though, you
are out of luck with any of the ones I know.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 6:03:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:D fkkit$gvn$1@panix2.panix.com
> SeriousMusic <tjerk30@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Is there a portable digital desk, providing 24 inputs
>> and 24 inserts with a good sound? (yamaha orso?)

If you think a DM2000 is portable...

> The Yamahas are not bad, although the configuration is
> not very intuitive. It's definitely worth checking out.

> If you want to insert an analogue processor between a
> digital source and the console strip, though, you
> are out of luck with any of the ones I know.

It is true that the in-console analog inserts are only
in-line for in-console analog mic inputs.

With the current Yammies (01v96-DM2000) channel strip inputs
can be patched to I/O slots to obtain digital inputs.

Both digital insert ins and insert outs can be be patched to
I/O slots connected to outboard converters to obtain
additional analog inserts that are in-line with the channel
strip (digital) inputs.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 8:07:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic wrote:

> Thanx mike, but it seems you're totally missing my point.

> True, i'm picky, but isn't every engineer or musician?
> Given the fact that i'm asking for an opinion on certain desks, doesn't
> mean I'm not in title of an opinion of my own. I just am lucky to have
> a friend who borrows his desk and let me have a go with it.
>
> It turns out this desk is not what i'm looking for.

Then I'm not missing your point at all. I'm hearing what you say, that
you don't care for the DM24 after giving it a trial, so that should be
the end of the story. It shouldn't matter that someone else loves it. I
only suggested that you check your gain structure since you remarked
about noise, but you might have it working as good as you can get.
Whenever someone complains about noise in a digital system, often it's
of the nature of "When I turn the volume up all the way, I can hear
some hiss" without any regard to whether or not the speakers (or the
windows) would blow out at that playback level. That's all I was
questioning. But if you don't care for the sound (or the ergonomics, or
the number of available gozintas and gozoutas) write it off your list.

But my point, and Arny's too, I think, is that you shouldn't expect
another console in the same ballpark price range to be astoundingly
different.

> I expose my opinion
> in order to measure it with others, maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong.
> So dont start flaming me.

I'm flaming you? I hardly think so. I'm just encouraging you not to
waste your time looking for someone who loves this console which is
obviously a dead end for you.

> Is there a portable digital desk, providing 24 inputs and 24 inserts
> with a good sound? (yamaha orso?)

Nothing comes to mind. I assume that by "inputs" you mean mic level
inputs, and by "inserts" you mean analog line level inserts between the
mic preamp stage and the rest of the channel strip? Other than digital
live sound consoles (which are portable with a couple of healthy
roadies) they don't build digital recording consoles like that, at
least not in the TASCAM/Yamaha price range. You could configure a
Mackie dxb like that, but you're talking in the $15K range, and the
"inserts" wouldn't be jacks on the back of the console, they'd be
additional line level analog inputs and outputs (on D-sub connectors)
that you could put in line with a channel. Because of the flexible
routing, you may not need to have 24 inserts since you can assign your
physical "inserts" to any channel. Plus the built-in dynamics on every
channel means that you may not really need all those insert devices.
The nice thing about the way you can build inserts on the dxb is that
you can put an analog processor in line with a digital recorder return
as easily as you can put it in line with a mic preamp output.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 9:53:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanx mike, but it seems you're totally missing my point.
>
> True, i'm picky, but isn't every engineer or musician?
> Given the fact that i'm asking for an opinion on certain desks, doesn't
> mean I'm not in title of an opinion of my own. I just am lucky to have
> a friend who borrows his desk and let me have a go with it.
>
> It turns out this desk is not what i'm looking for. I expose my opinion
> in order to measure it with others, maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong.
> So dont start flaming me. After all, that is what this forum is all
> about. (i'm not looking down on things, mike...just read better)
>
> I'm looking for a better solution than the tascam, there cannot be
> anything wrong with that.
>
> That leaves the following...
>
> Is there a portable digital desk, providing 24 inputs and 24 inserts
> with a good sound? (yamaha orso?)

You are comparing your Mackie mixer with a digital DM24 mixer.
You really should be comparing digital mixers to each other. I like
the DM24 for taking signals in the digital domain already and mixing
them, and to find an analog mixer with comparable automation you'd have
to spend probably at least 5 times more, like maybe an Otari Status
with Eagle automation or maybe a used Soundtracs Jade or something. I
have good outboard converters for A/D on critical sources, but the DM24
isn't really bad either I think. But if instant recall of settings and
mix automation isn't as important to you as sound, there are a number
of more affordable old analog consoles that will kick the butt of a
digital console up and down the block in that regard. However, the
Mackie 24/32x8 isn't one of them IMHO.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV/Audio Post Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 4:18:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi all,

Thanks for thinking along!

I'm not saying mackie is the best there is, certainly my mackie is not
a Standard!
But it's in my opinion better than what i've heard from this tascam
dm24.

I'm just looking for a better sound. That's all

I was already searching for a great preamp, and probably it is going to
be the Focusrite Octopre.
If I'd use externel preamps, I would connect them straight to my
soundcard of my pc.
I do not want the lines to be too long. (i mean no xtra
preamps and eqs if its not needed, to keep the signal as clean and
straightforward as possible). Also knowing that not even my mackie has
the best preamps in the world, i'd like to skip those for the same
reason.

At the moment I'm building a studio control to even skip the console
completely. Straight output from the soundcard to my monitors. So no
noise or other artefacts are added by the mackie console. Got a few
options on how to create a headphone mix for the recording artist
already.

I need a smaller desk, for recording on location. It would be nice if
that could be a desk that had 24 inputs and 24 inserts or direct outs.
(i'd prefer outputs straight after the preamp in order to make a
complete guide mix and to keep the recorded signal free from eqs and
processing). At the moment I cannot find a desk that is about 19" and
has 24 input channels, that is not digital. That's not a problem, I
like the fact everything is packed into one, but then again, it should
sound ok.
I'll be at the studios next week testing some other digital desks.

The other option, in order to not buy a digital desk, is to buy three
Focusrite preamps, skip the idea of making a guide mix, but that would
be losing it's charm.

So there you have it, my deeper thoughts... ;-)

Thanx guys
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 9:31:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

WillStG wrote:

> You are comparing your Mackie mixer with a digital DM24 mixer.
> You really should be comparing digital mixers to each other.

It's not a bad thing for him to compare a potential new console to what
he knows. But he needs to factor in some of the different working
paradigms around which modestly priced digital mixers are designed. For
example, in the studio, you probably don't need inserts on every
channel since some of the functions that you're most likely to insert
are already built into the digital console's channel path. What's
important about inserts (on any mixer) is that they're where you need
them when you need them.

On a mixer like the Mackie d8b, there are insert jacks only on the
first 12 analog inputs, which also have mic preamps. This can be
workable for tracking, even on large sessions since you can assign any
input to any recording output. If you choose to use the conosle's mic
preamps and you don't need any more than 12 in a pass, you have all the
"tracking" inserts that you need. If it's a large session and you're
using outboard mic preamps to get more than 12 mic inputs, you can
patch a processor in between the output of the preamp (the jack on the
preamp) and one of the 12 line-only inputs on the mixer.

You can paint yourself in to a corner, though, if you try to get too
fancy, and, for example, use a preamp with a built-in A/D converter and
want to route its digital output to a track, through your prized
vintage LA3 compressor. Then, you're sitting there with a digital cable
in one hand and an analog cable in the other.

You run into the same problem if you want to use the console to mix 24
digital outputs from a recorder or computer equipped with a
multi-channel digital output device.

Digital console makers have finally figured this out and provide a
patch point in the digital path where you can "insert" either analog or
digital inputs and outputs. Yamaha does this with what they call "omni"
inputs and outputs (not sure if the 01V96 has them). You can get there
with some consoles by using aux sends and returns. You can't get there
at all with some digital consoles. But the point is that there are ways
to work that don't require a hardware insert on every channel.

[Sidebar - TASCAM's first digital console had four "floating" inserts,
but they abandoned them through the next several generations of their
digital consoles. I don't know if this generation's designers have
included them.]

I'd suggest a better analog console to the original poster, but he's
looking for something portable.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 9:40:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

SeriousMusic wrote:

> I need a smaller desk, for recording on location. It would be nice if
> that could be a desk that had 24 inputs and 24 inserts or direct outs.

Aha! Now I see. You don't want inserts to insert a processor into the
signal path, you want recording outputs. The "use the insert outputs as
direct outputs" trick has become so inbred these days that people use
the terms interchangeably.

> At the moment I cannot find a desk that is about 19" and
> has 24 input channels, that is not digital.

Well, that's because in order to make room for your fingers, a
"channel" needs to be at least an inch wide. Do the math. <g> Digital
consoles lend themselves well to having 16 "handles" for 24 channels,
but analog consoles do not.

> The other option, in order to not buy a digital desk, is to buy three
> Focusrite preamps, skip the idea of making a guide mix, but that would
> be losing it's charm.

That's not the only alternative. First off, you could make the rough
reference mix ("guide mix") on your computer. You could make a better
rough mix by submixing some tracks on the computer (for instance drums
or keyboards) that you won't have to change much, and sending them back
to a smaller, say 16-channel, console for your monitor/rough mix.

Have you looked at the Mackie Onyx series? The 1640 has 16 inputs, all
with mic preamps, and I suspect that they're on par, if not better in
some respects, than the Octapre. It has direct outputs on D-sub
connectors (no risk of halfway-in plugs in insert jacks falling out
when on location) and you can send those 16 inputs directly to the
computer with the Firewire option card.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:02:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:1126096278.643710.149840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

> You can paint yourself in to a corner, though, if you try
> to get too fancy, and, for example, use a preamp with a
> built-in A/D converter and want to route its digital
> output to a track, through your prized vintage LA3
> compressor. Then, you're sitting there with a digital
> cable in one hand and an analog cable in the other.

As I pointed out yesterday to Scott, this is far from
mission impossible. In a recording context, you can probably
patch existing unused I/O ports to support one such analog
device or a very small number of them.

> You run into the same problem if you want to use the
> console to mix 24 digital outputs from a recorder or
> computer equipped with a multi-channel digital output
> device.

The prime way to do this is digitally, using an audio
interface with compatible digital I/O.

This can mean slot adapters with AES/EBU at the high end,
and ADAT I/O at the lower end.

Cards like the Lynx mega-AES3 card seem to be designed for
this at the high end. What the world needs is a $200 card
with 3-4 ADAT input ports. AFAIK, what we have costs 2-3
times that much and does more that might not be needed.

> Digital console makers have finally figured this out and
> provide a patch point in the digital path where you can
> "insert" either analog or digital inputs and outputs.

Right, the Yammies have digital inserts and digital direct
outs in addition to the analog inserts on the low-numbered
mic inputs. You can patch the digital insert outs and direct
outs to ports on the cards that you use to fill the slots.

If anybody is going to do this on a Yammy, the hidden gotcha
is that you have to specifically enable the direct out or
insert I/O on each channel individually after you assign it.
You can't enable a direct out that hasn't first been
assigned. A digital insert that hasn't been enabled is dead
to the world just like the analog ones. Ditto for the direct
outs.

The good news is that you don't necessarily need the moral
equivalent of a cable that jumpers insert out to insert in.
You can just patch insert in to that channel's current
input source.

> Yamaha does this with what they call "omni" inputs and
> outputs (not sure if the 01V96 has them).

Yamaha has a great number of options for patching I/O
besides the omni I/O. However if these ports are free they
are a good starting point. The problem is that there aren't
a lot of them by multitrack standards.

> You can get there with some consoles by using aux sends
> and returns.

On a Yammy, you can patch the digital inserts and direct
outs pretty much to wherever you've got a free port,
built-in, or on a slot.

> You can't get there at all with some digital consoles.
> But the point is that there are ways to work that don't
> require a hardware insert on every channel.

Agreed. Also note that on the Yammies, there is a digital
direct out that you can patch pre-eq, pre-fade, or
post-fade, for every channel, whether real or virtual.

Here's a real-world example.

This 02R96 is primarly a SR console, so its omni outs are
pretty much tied up with on-stage monitors.

I'm currently routing 24 channels out of my 02R96, all
pre-fader, pre-eq. Since this is an upgrade from a Mackie
SR32, I'm heavily pre-invested in analog hardware.

Channels 1-16 are default-opatched analog insert out into a
Delta 1010 and a Delta 1010LT. Channels 17-24 are digital
direct outs user patched to the analog outputs of an
ADA8000, and then into another Delta 1010LT.

Since outboard mic preamps tend to come with line outputs,
theres a lot of more-or-less free output resources just
sitting there, for a lot of people.

I do have 2 free digital outs on the console that I could
use with the digital inputs on the Delta complex to get 4
more channels on the cheap.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:08:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SeriousMusic" <tjerk30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126077494.413197.101760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

> I need a smaller desk, for recording on location. It
> would be nice if that could be a desk that had 24 inputs
> and 24 inserts or direct outs. (i'd prefer outputs
> straight after the preamp in order to make a complete
> guide mix and to keep the recorded signal free from eqs
> and processing). At the moment I cannot find a desk that
> is about 19" and has 24 input channels, that is not
> digital. That's not a problem, I like the fact everything
> is packed into one, but then again, it should sound ok.
> I'll be at the studios next week testing some other
> digital desks.

The 01V does the 24 channels out part, is pretty small, but
needs two 1 RU 8x outboard mic preamps to get to 24 mic
inputs.

The 01V has built-in ADAT ports for 8 channels in and out,
and there's 1 expansion slot that would handle 16 more with
the MY16AT expansion card.

Frontier and some other folks have PCI ADAT I/O cards to
match.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:59:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

WillStG wrote:
> SeriousMusic wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Thanx mike, but it seems you're totally missing my point.
>>
>>True, i'm picky, but isn't every engineer or musician?
>>Given the fact that i'm asking for an opinion on certain desks, doesn't
>>mean I'm not in title of an opinion of my own. I just am lucky to have
>>a friend who borrows his desk and let me have a go with it.
>>
>>It turns out this desk is not what i'm looking for. I expose my opinion
>>in order to measure it with others, maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong.
>>So dont start flaming me. After all, that is what this forum is all
>>about. (i'm not looking down on things, mike...just read better)
>>
>>I'm looking for a better solution than the tascam, there cannot be
>>anything wrong with that.
>>
>>That leaves the following...
>>
>>Is there a portable digital desk, providing 24 inputs and 24 inserts
>>with a good sound? (yamaha orso?)
>
>
> You are comparing your Mackie mixer with a digital DM24 mixer.
> You really should be comparing digital mixers to each other. I like
> the DM24 for taking signals in the digital domain already and mixing
> them, and to find an analog mixer with comparable automation you'd have
> to spend probably at least 5 times more, like maybe an Otari Status
> with Eagle automation or maybe a used Soundtracs Jade or something. I
> have good outboard converters for A/D on critical sources, but the DM24
> isn't really bad either I think. But if instant recall of settings and
> mix automation isn't as important to you as sound, there are a number
> of more affordable old analog consoles that will kick the butt of a
> digital console up and down the block in that regard. However, the
> Mackie 24/32x8 isn't one of them IMHO.
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music and TV/Audio Post Guy
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
Or dig out a Tactile Technologies M4000 if you want digital facilities
with analogue sound. 24 inline channels (48 total in), full recall, auto
levels, flying faders on some and not expensive second hand...
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 1:20:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> Have you looked at the Mackie Onyx series? The 1640 has 16 inputs, all
> with mic preamps, and I suspect that they're on par, if not better in
> some respects, than the Octapre. It has direct outputs on D-sub
> connectors (no risk of halfway-in plugs in insert jacks falling out
> when on location) and you can send those 16 inputs directly to the
> computer with the Firewire option card.

I think after following this thread that you've nailed his best option.
Damn nice EQ on those, too. I was surprised.

--
ha
July 13, 2011 11:17:29 PM

Hello,I used this in my recording studio with great outcomes on sound mixing editing, all I can say GREAT!

I now use The DM 24 as an analog mixer for my live performances and, what a savior it has been. I save all the mixes from the Festvales, clubs, pubs, halls etc....believe this all I have to do is plug in and play! that it! it is the best mixer in a studio or li8ve application that I have ever used because its programable and all mixes and sound applications can be saved into the library. WOW! it's amazing and most band leaders envy how easy I make it look!

Overall it's been my savior. :bounce: 
!