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Shredder9- Fritz interface crashes everytime after about 7..

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Anonymous
May 9, 2005 3:20:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

I have been building the Nalimov 5 man endgames using the Tablebase
generator supplied with Shredder9. Shredder9 indeed uses the endgames but it
crashes everytime when using the KRBKR tablebase. It may be because I have
used the Optimize feature on Shredder to use over 75% of my RAM, but I am
not sure why Shredder would need lots of RAM when using a tablebase. This
sure looks like a bug to me. Shredder9-fritz interface seems to use the KBNK
tablebase okay. I haven't checked the other tablebases yet but I can't build
them all on my machine because 28 of them need more than the 448 MB of Ram
on my machine. The largest 5 man tablebases need 571 MB. By the way, I have
been out of computer chess for 5 years. What is the state of the 6 man
tablebases?

--
Alan Tomalty
Vice-President
Winergy Canada
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 3:20:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

Tablebases are decompressed into RAM, which means they require quite
some memory... I don't know how much exactly (probably twice the file
size if not more). Also, you can configure a tbs. cache in
Options/Tablebases. Typical recommendations are 8 or 16 MB, I use 32.
Try to reduce your hash size setting, for example to 128 or 256 MB.
This should be save to have (more than) enough free RAM for 5-piece
tbs.

Another problem can be corrupted tbs. files. Some users, and even
distribution CDs, have been affected. But I think it's very unlikely
when you have generated them. Anyway, here is a download source as an
alternative (FTP site with limited anonymous access):

ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt/TB/

All the most important 5-piece tbs., R+? versus R incl. Q+R vs. R, have
a total size of 252 MB (10 files).
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 3:36:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

I have tested Shedder9-fritz interface on the KRBKR tablebase with Shredder
using lower amounts of RAM and it still crashes after about 7 plies of
moves. Something is wrong with Shredder using the 5 man tablebases. It looks
like ChessBase needs better beta testers.
Komputer Korner






"Komputer Korner" <kornerNoSpamPlease@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:IuKdnTIrf7u_SuPfRVn-uA@rogers.com...
> I have been building the Nalimov 5 man endgames using the Tablebase
> generator supplied with Shredder9. Shredder9 indeed uses the endgames but
it
> crashes everytime when using the KRBKR tablebase. It may be because I have
> used the Optimize feature on Shredder to use over 75% of my RAM, but I am
> not sure why Shredder would need lots of RAM when using a tablebase. This
> sure looks like a bug to me. Shredder9-fritz interface seems to use the
KBNK
> tablebase okay. I haven't checked the other tablebases yet but I can't
build
> them all on my machine because 28 of them need more than the 448 MB of
Ram
> on my machine. The largest 5 man tablebases need 571 MB. By the way, I
have
> been out of computer chess for 5 years. What is the state of the 6 man
> tablebases?
>
>
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 2:45:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

My Fritz interface is the version of Jan. 10th, 2005 (see "About...").
When you have an older version, log in to Playchess.com and start the
update process from the help menu. Then, you can be absolutely sure
that it is not a GUI bug (nor an engine bug... a tbs. access bug never
was reported afaik, from Shredder 9). I did not generate my 5-piece
tbs. files, but i have checked their file integrity and they are
correct. I can only assume that your tbs. file(s) are broken. When you
have a connection which is fast enough, try to download it from the
source I have posted. Hopefully, that file(s) will not cause problems...
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 2:50:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

I have set the Tablebase cache to 32MB and the engine hash table size to
64MB. I have 448MB of RAM. Shredder 9 continues to crash after 13 plies of
moves when searching a 5 man tablebase such as KRBKR. Based on your reply I
am assuming that you don't have the Fritz interface and thus have not
generated the Nalimov tablebases from the program supplied with the Fritz
interface. I am also assuming that there is absolutely no difference between
the Shredder9-Fritz interface and Fritz8 - Fritz interface except for the
actual engines which I assume act exactly the same with the Fritz interface.
Therefore (unless 448MBwhich is my total RAM -64MB for hash tables -the
32MB cache for the tablebases which leaves 352MB spare RAM for calculations,
is not enough) I can only conclude that there is a indeed a bug. So at the
present time using 5 man tablebases is impossible for me. The Chessbase help
file is misleading as it does not warn you that building the 5 man
tablebases takes an average of 3-4 hours for each one and there are 146 of
them. The 4 man tablebases don't take 4 hours but most of the 5 man
tablebases do, on a 2.8GHZ machine. Has anybody actually tried using the 5
man tablebases with the Fritz interface?
Komputer Korner

"Error Flink" <error_flink@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115610429.793919.89100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Tablebases are decompressed into RAM, which means they require quite
> some memory... I don't know how much exactly (probably twice the file
> size if not more). Also, you can configure a tbs. cache in
> Options/Tablebases. Typical recommendations are 8 or 16 MB, I use 32.
> Try to reduce your hash size setting, for example to 128 or 256 MB.
> This should be save to have (more than) enough free RAM for 5-piece
> tbs.
>
> Another problem can be corrupted tbs. files. Some users, and even
> distribution CDs, have been affected. But I think it's very unlikely
> when you have generated them. Anyway, here is a download source as an
> alternative (FTP site with limited anonymous access):
>
> ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt/TB/
>
> All the most important 5-piece tbs., R+? versus R incl. Q+R vs. R, have
> a total size of 252 MB (10 files).
>
May 9, 2005 6:35:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

First, you need to verify that the tablebase files are OK:
http://www.aarontay.per.sg/winboard/md5.html
http://www.aarontay.per.sg/winboard/egtb.html
If they're OK, then I suggest you reinstall Shredder 9.
After doing those things, if the problem remains then...

What do you mean by the "Optimize feature on Shredder"? I have Shredder 9
but don't know what you mean.

Also what do you mean by "crashes". What happens, exactly?

Also include some info about your computer & op system.
--
.... ;o)


"Komputer Korner" <kornerNoSpamPlease@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:IuKdnTIrf7u_SuPfRVn-uA@rogers.com...
>I have been building the Nalimov 5 man endgames using the Tablebase
> generator supplied with Shredder9. Shredder9 indeed uses the endgames but
> it
> crashes everytime when using the KRBKR tablebase. It may be because I have
> used the Optimize feature on Shredder to use over 75% of my RAM, but I am
> not sure why Shredder would need lots of RAM when using a tablebase. This
> sure looks like a bug to me. Shredder9-fritz interface seems to use the
> KBNK
> tablebase okay. I haven't checked the other tablebases yet but I can't
> build
> them all on my machine because 28 of them need more than the 448 MB of
> Ram
> on my machine. The largest 5 man tablebases need 571 MB. By the way, I
> have
> been out of computer chess for 5 years. What is the state of the 6 man
> tablebases?
>
> --
> Alan Tomalty
> Vice-President
> Winergy Canada
>
>
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 6:35:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

In the Shredder9/Fritz interface you go to Game/Levels/Optimize Strength.
The Interface will pick a hash table size that is the largest hash table
that your machine can provide. There is another small bug here. That is if
you pick a fast time control, the interface should pick a smaller hash
table size for you when you choose the above Optimization option. It
doesn't. Therefore the feature doesn't optimize the hash table size. I t
simply picks the largest hash table possible within your RAM's maximum.On my
machine of 448MB it picks a hash table size of 336 MB. On fast time
controls, the large hash tables are just wasted. They never fill up. The
interface Help actually explains this but the optimization feature is not
sophisticated enough to implement it.

If you have Shredder9, have you gone to the Tablebase generation program on
the Shredder9 disk and tried to build some of the 5 man endgames?. Try the
KRBKR. It will take you 4 hours if you have a 2.8Ghz machine running WINXP.
Then try to set up a position with the above pieces. You will notice that
Shredder9 will recognize the tablebase. but after 13 plies of moves it will
crash completely. You will end up back at your desktop. When I built the
tablebases, I set the generator to Compression mode because it saves a lot
of hard disk space and evn though I have 25GB left. I wanted to use only 8GB
of it for the tablebases. Maybe the crashes are because the bases are
compressed so maybe it will work with an uncompressed tablebase. I will
generate another one without compression to prove this one way or the other.



"skydiver" <abso@lut.ely> wrote in message
news:vyKfe.78$2u5.11@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> First, you need to verify that the tablebase files are OK:
> http://www.aarontay.per.sg/winboard/md5.html
> http://www.aarontay.per.sg/winboard/egtb.html
> If they're OK, then I suggest you reinstall Shredder 9.
> After doing those things, if the problem remains then...
>
> What do you mean by the "Optimize feature on Shredder"? I have Shredder 9
> but don't know what you mean.
>
> Also what do you mean by "crashes". What happens, exactly?
>
> Also include some info about your computer & op system.
> --
> ... ;o)
>
>
> "Komputer Korner" <kornerNoSpamPlease@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:IuKdnTIrf7u_SuPfRVn-uA@rogers.com...
> >I have been building the Nalimov 5 man endgames using the Tablebase
> > generator supplied with Shredder9. Shredder9 indeed uses the endgames
but
> > it
> > crashes everytime when using the KRBKR tablebase. It may be because I
have
> > used the Optimize feature on Shredder to use over 75% of my RAM, but I
am
> > not sure why Shredder would need lots of RAM when using a tablebase.
This
> > sure looks like a bug to me. Shredder9-fritz interface seems to use the
> > KBNK
> > tablebase okay. I haven't checked the other tablebases yet but I can't
> > build
> > them all on my machine because 28 of them need more than the 448 MB of
> > Ram
> > on my machine. The largest 5 man tablebases need 571 MB. By the way, I
> > have
> > been out of computer chess for 5 years. What is the state of the 6 man
> > tablebases?
> >
> > --
> > Alan Tomalty
> > Vice-President
> > Winergy Canada
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 7:42:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

My version of Shredder9 is January 18, 2005.
I suspect that I have found the problem. The compression routine is buggy in
the Tablebase generation program that is supplied on the Shredder9 CD. I
built the KBNKB tablebase and Shredder9 does not crash when accessing it.
To prove this absolutely, I will have to rebuild the KRBKR tablebase without
compression. I will do that tonight.

Komputer Korner


"Error Flink" <error_flink@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115660745.694814.308730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> My Fritz interface is the version of Jan. 10th, 2005 (see "About...").
> When you have an older version, log in to Playchess.com and start the
> update process from the help menu. Then, you can be absolutely sure
> that it is not a GUI bug (nor an engine bug... a tbs. access bug never
> was reported afaik, from Shredder 9). I did not generate my 5-piece
> tbs. files, but i have checked their file integrity and they are
> correct. I can only assume that your tbs. file(s) are broken. When you
> have a connection which is fast enough, try to download it from the
> source I have posted. Hopefully, that file(s) will not cause problems...
>
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 2:16:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

On Sun, 8 May 2005 23:20:39 -0400, Komputer Korner wrote:

> I have been building the Nalimov 5 man endgames using the Tablebase
> generator supplied with Shredder9. Shredder9 indeed uses the endgames but it
> crashes everytime when using the KRBKR tablebase. It may be because I have
> used the Optimize feature on Shredder to use over 75% of my RAM, but I am
> not sure why Shredder would need lots of RAM when using a tablebase. This
> sure looks like a bug to me. Shredder9-fritz interface seems to use the KBNK
> tablebase okay. I haven't checked the other tablebases yet but I can't build
> them all on my machine because 28 of them need more than the 448 MB of Ram
> on my machine. The largest 5 man tablebases need 571 MB. By the way, I have
> been out of computer chess for 5 years. What is the state of the 6 man
> tablebases?

Why don't you check your tablebases for possible errors,
just to rule out the possibility...

There are md5 checksums on ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt/TB/
but I recomend Wilhelm: http://www.geocities.com/rba_schach2000/
Aditional to TB error-checking, it also has lots of nifty endgame analysis
options.


--
foobar2000 now playing:
Sevendust - suffocate
May 10, 2005 8:01:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

To solve a problem such as this, you have to proceed stepwise and rule out
one cause at a time.

I already have the tablebases, downloaded from Prof. Hyatt's ftp site, then
verified them with md5 checksums. That's what you should do before anything
else, verify them somehow. Also have you tried reinstalling your Shredder 9
software?

I have Shredder 9 UCI, not the Chessbase version, and have never had any
similar problems with it.

However I had the Chessbase version of Shredder 8, and there was a bug in
the hash allocation settings, as well as several other bugs. But I later
discovered that my Windows XP Home op system was faulty. After I
resinstalled my op system, that bug and most problems with Shredder 8
disappeared. So you could have a problem with your op system. You still
haven't mentioned what you're running.

Windows XP needs about 256 MB to work well. So if you have 448 MB RAM, I
suggest that you use a maximum of 192 MB for Shredder 9 hash. Forget the
"optimization" operation! You can use somewhat more for hash, but may notice
that your op system starts to get sluggish.

You say your system crashes with the KRBKR tablebase and endgame position
after 13 plies. Instead of setting up the position, start a normal game then
play give-away chess, til you get down to a KRBKR endgame, and see if that
also crashes. That would test whether there's a problem with the setup
operation.

Are you using infinite mode, or what, for the analysis?
--
.... ;o)
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 1:35:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

I have found the problem. There is a bug in the compression routine in the
Tablebase generation program supplied by Shredder9. Since Nalimove probably
wrote the compression routine and he now works for Microsoft, I don't expect
the bug to be corrected anytime soon. The tablebases work correctly as long
as you don't use the COMPRESSION option when building them. This will take 3
times the amount of disk space but C'est la vie.
Komputer Korner


"skydiver" <abso@lut.ely> wrote in message
news:0mWfe.258$OU1.253@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> To solve a problem such as this, you have to proceed stepwise and rule out
> one cause at a time.
>
> I already have the tablebases, downloaded from Prof. Hyatt's ftp site,
then
> verified them with md5 checksums. That's what you should do before
anything
> else, verify them somehow. Also have you tried reinstalling your Shredder
9
> software?
>
> I have Shredder 9 UCI, not the Chessbase version, and have never had any
> similar problems with it.
>
> However I had the Chessbase version of Shredder 8, and there was a bug in
> the hash allocation settings, as well as several other bugs. But I later
> discovered that my Windows XP Home op system was faulty. After I
> resinstalled my op system, that bug and most problems with Shredder 8
> disappeared. So you could have a problem with your op system. You still
> haven't mentioned what you're running.
>
> Windows XP needs about 256 MB to work well. So if you have 448 MB RAM, I
> suggest that you use a maximum of 192 MB for Shredder 9 hash. Forget the
> "optimization" operation! You can use somewhat more for hash, but may
notice
> that your op system starts to get sluggish.
>
> You say your system crashes with the KRBKR tablebase and endgame position
> after 13 plies. Instead of setting up the position, start a normal game
then
> play give-away chess, til you get down to a KRBKR endgame, and see if that
> also crashes. That would test whether there's a problem with the setup
> operation.
>
> Are you using infinite mode, or what, for the analysis?
> --
> ... ;o)
>
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 5:56:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess.computer (More info?)

"Komputer Korner" <kornerNoSpamPlease@rogers.com> writes:

>I have found the problem. There is a bug in the compression routine in the
>Tablebase generation program supplied by Shredder9. Since Nalimove probably
>wrote the compression routine and he now works for Microsoft, I don't expect
>the bug to be corrected anytime soon. The tablebases work correctly as long
>as you don't use the COMPRESSION option when building them. This will take 3
>times the amount of disk space but C'est la vie.
>Komputer Korner

Eugene Nalimov regularly posts at the computer chess club at www.talkchess.com
I think you'll find he still does a lot of work on tablebases.

Andrew
!