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'location' recording

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Anonymous
September 8, 2005 1:25:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
(analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

More about : location recording

Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:43:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gerrymcc wrote ...
> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk?
> Nagra (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its
> phantom powered inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-
> option nowadays...

IMHO, we are currently in the gap between the end of DAT and
the availability of decent flash RAM recorders. Some of the recent
flash recorders are beginning to approach audiophile or decent
commercial quality. The mic preamps seem to be the area where
manufacturers haven't perceived the market for something of decent
quality.

There is now reasonably decent capacity and uncompressed
encoding available in the latest, high-capacity MiniDisc.
However Sony, et.al. have fatally crippled it with their draconian
file protection (DRM) schemes.

Analog tape seems to be on life-support as the source of tape
seems so insecure. At one point less than a year ago there were
NO manufacturers of analog tape left. Dunno how long the
current 2 (or 3?) vendors can stay in profitable business?

If we have to wait too much longer, I may get motivated enough
to cobble up something the size of a paperback book that takes
8 AA cells, a notebook PC hard drive, a couple of female XLR
connectors, and a circuit board, LCD display and a few buttons
to tie it all together. Something along the same idea as the PJRC
MP3 player kit... http://www.pjrc.com/
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:48:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <usTTe.13995$R5.1027@news.indigo.ie>, <gerrymcc@indigo.ie> wrote:
>What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
>(analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
>inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

I'm running 1/4" tape, 1/2" tape, DAT, and DTRS. Plenty of other
folks are going the hard disk route with gadgets like the DEVA or
the Sound Devices recorders.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Related resources
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 6:27:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley <richard.7.crowley@intel.com> wrote:
>
>Analog tape seems to be on life-support as the source of tape
>seems so insecure. At one point less than a year ago there were
>NO manufacturers of analog tape left. Dunno how long the
>current 2 (or 3?) vendors can stay in profitable business?

Currently it's one vendor actually shipping product (plus JAI in
Bombay, which has no US distribution and no quality control).

Soon it will be four vendors shipping product. Things will be
getting better, at least for a while. I think that analogue tape
will be profitable for a good long while yet, but only for small
boutique manufacturers that will be charging a lot and doing small
production runs. I don't see that as a bad thing, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:35:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gerrymcc@indigo.ie wrote:
> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
> (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
> inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

It depends on what you're recording and what you're going to do with
it. I'd continue to use DAT if my portable DAT still worked. We had a
long battle about this a couple of weeks ago. For things like recording
a one night concert or interviews or incidental recordings, a compact
flash recorder is the way to go. If you're going to be recording for a
whole weekend non-stop, either you'll need a helper to recycle your
memory cards or you'll need a lot of expensive memory.

Unlike DAT, in a relatively short time, you WILL have to transfer the
recordings from flash memory cards to something else. You can put a DAT
on the shelf and leave it until it rots and it costs less than $5 per
recorded hour. Sure, CD blanks are a quarter an hour, but you need time
and equipment to get there from flash cards. There's a portable CD
recorder or two, but it's probably not what you really want.
September 8, 2005 7:51:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gerrymcc@indigo.ie wrote:
> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
> (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
> inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

Laptop computer. Some may jump on this, saying 'what about if it
crashes in the middle of a concert?' Yeah, that'd be a bummer. A DAT
backup can work, though maybe I'm lazy - I have hundreds of hours of
remote work on my laptop without a backup recorder, and I've never lost
a second of audio.

Albert
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 8:14:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Albert wrote:

>Laptop computer. Some may jump on this, saying 'what about if it
>crashes in the middle of a concert?' Yeah, that'd be a bummer. A DAT
>backup can work, though maybe I'm lazy - I have hundreds of hours of
>remote work on my laptop without a backup recorder, and I've never lost
>a second of audio.

There are none who value backups less than those who have never lost
data, just as there are none who value them more than those who have
just lost data!

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at comcast dot net | - The Who, Bargain
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 9:27:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <usTTe.13995$R5.1027@news.indigo.ie>, gerrymcc@indigo.ie says...
>
>What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
>(analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
>inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...
>

The new format is more compact. In fact it's even called compact. Compact
Flash.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:20:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <usTTe.13995$R5.1027@news.indigo.ie>, gerrymcc@indigo.ie ()
wrote:

> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
> (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
> inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

Lots to choose from, depending on your budget:

From http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r1.html

and its competitors from Marantz, M-Audio etc to

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r4.html and the like.

Then if you have deep enough pockets it's onward and upward to

http://www.zaxcom.com/index.shtml and
http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php

Those are just a few I had bookmarked, there are loads more.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:14:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael R. Kesti <mrkesti@nospam.net> wrote:
>Albert wrote:
>
>>Laptop computer. Some may jump on this, saying 'what about if it
>>crashes in the middle of a concert?' Yeah, that'd be a bummer. A DAT
>>backup can work, though maybe I'm lazy - I have hundreds of hours of
>>remote work on my laptop without a backup recorder, and I've never lost
>>a second of audio.
>
>There are none who value backups less than those who have never lost
>data, just as there are none who value them more than those who have
>just lost data!

I will say that I have used just about every recording format available
in the past 30 years, from lacquer discs to various analogue formats,
DASH, DTRS, 3M and Mitsubishi digital, down to CD-R, DVD-R, and a couple
hard disk systems, and so far there is NOT ONE of these formats where
I have not lost data. Admittedly in most cases it was my own fault, but
it still happened. All recording formats are unreliable, and doubly so
when human beings operate the machinery.
--scott
(who once recorded on a cart with the dbx unit set for playback and
STILL feels bad about it.)
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:45:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 9/8/05 5:25 AM, in article usTTe.13995$R5.1027@news.indigo.ie,
"gerrymcc@indigo.ie" <gerrymcc@indigo.ie> wrote:

> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
> (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
> inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...
>

Rec.arts.movies.production.sound
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:46:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 9/8/05 1:43 PM, in article dfpt7p$alr$1@news01.intel.com, "Richard
Crowley" <richard.7.crowley@intel.com> wrote:

> gerrymcc wrote ...
>> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk?
>> Nagra (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its
>> phantom powered inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-
>> option nowadays...
>
> IMHO, we are currently in the gap between the end of DAT and
> the availability of decent flash RAM recorders. Some of the recent
> flash recorders are beginning to approach audiophile or decent
> commercial quality. The mic preamps seem to be the area where
> manufacturers haven't perceived the market for something of decent
> quality.

Wrong...
Rec.arts.movies.production.sound
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:46:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"SSJVCmag" wrote ...
> "Richard Crowley" wrote:
>> gerrymcc wrote ...
>>> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk?
>>> Nagra (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its
>>> phantom powered inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-
>>> option nowadays...
>>
>> IMHO, we are currently in the gap between the end of DAT and
>> the availability of decent flash RAM recorders. Some of the recent
>> flash recorders are beginning to approach audiophile or decent
>> commercial quality. The mic preamps seem to be the area where
>> manufacturers haven't perceived the market for something of decent
>> quality.
>
> Wrong...
> Rec.arts.movies.production.sound

Thank you for your perceptive and comprehensive addition
to the discussion.

Assuming that if the OP were asking about high-end, double-
system production equipment, he would have asked over on
r.a.m.p.s in the first place.

Perhaps you missed the extensive discussion of this particular
product market right here only a few weeks ago? We have
been discussing it off-and-on for most of the year.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:21:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:25:39 +0200, gerrymcc wrote:

> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
> (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
> inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

A robust and expensive recorder that might be a good DAT replacement:
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/7.htm
recording on (40GB) HD or flash

A simple recorder that wil be released soon?:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.h...
recording on flash.

Flash and microdrives in CF format are available up to 8GB. Some
technicians prefer removable media like DAT. That has given some
discussion. If you want removable media a DVD recorder might be a
solution.

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:54:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:

> There is now reasonably decent capacity and uncompressed
> encoding available in the latest, high-capacity MiniDisc.
> However Sony, et.al. have fatally crippled it with their draconian
> file protection (DRM) schemes.

Actually, the last vestige of that with respect to what you
record yourself has been removed. For analog recording it
is no longer encumbered.

OTOH, I've yet to see a good test done of the analog front
end of a Hi-MD and I don't think you can record from digital
in on devices that have it.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 4:11:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Michael R. Kesti wrote:

> Albert wrote:

> >Laptop computer. Some may jump on this, saying 'what about if it
> >crashes in the middle of a concert?' Yeah, that'd be a bummer. A DAT
> >backup can work, though maybe I'm lazy - I have hundreds of hours of
> >remote work on my laptop without a backup recorder, and I've never lost
> >a second of audio.

> There are none who value backups less than those who have never lost
> data, just as there are none who value them more than those who have
> just lost data!

..sig material, Michael. Excellent! Thanks.

--
ha
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:41:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

spud wrote:

> Whatever current medium develops from here on out is going to be
> crippled or complicated by copy protection to the point you can't use
> it, it seems.

Really? Are recordings made on flash card recorders such as the Marantz
or Fostex copy-protected? I thought all you had to do was stick them in
a reader connected to a computer and they showed up as plain ordinary
WAV files. Many of these devices have a USB port that makes it look, to
the computer, like an external disk drive.

> I liked to old scsm system whereby you paid double to
> get rid of it so it kept it out of the hands of copiers but pros had
> the flexibilities they needed to work.

I didn't like the concept, and as the industry discovered, it didn't
work anyway. Only digital diehards or ignorants cared that it was
difficult to make a digital copy. If you wanted a copy, you could
always make an analog copy. The danger of being able to make a "perfect
clone" was greatly exaggerated.

But SCMS was before the Internet. The target today is not to prevent
copying of your own recordings, but rather to prevent unauthorized
distribution of commercial recordings.

> I still use a DAP-1 with acceptable results, it just takes twice as
> long to real-time into a pc.

Most DAW programs ignore (or can be set to ignore) the copy protection
status bits, so if you're willing to make a real-time copy to a
computer, it's usually no problem to make a "clean" copy of an
SCMS-protected recording. But the deterrent today is that people are
too impatient to make a real-time copy. Geez, they might even LISTEN to
it while they're running a copy - but, no, the need for instantaneous
copying and sharing is the driving force of a major portion of the
population of recording hobbyists (who are the largest purchasers of
recorders, not the pros).
September 9, 2005 10:52:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:25:39 GMT, gerrymcc@indigo.ie wrote:

>What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
>(analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
>inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

Whatever current medium develops from here on out is going to be
crippled or complicated by copy protection to the point you can't use
it, it seems. I liked to old scsm system whereby you paid double to
get rid of it so it kept it out of the hands of copiers but pros had
the flexibilities they needed to work.
I still use a DAP-1 with acceptable results, it just takes twice as
long to real-time into a pc. The laptop is too obtrusive and
contributes more noise and complexity than I like in most situations.
good luck, s.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:04:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" wrote ...
> Richard Crowley wrote:
>
>> There is now reasonably decent capacity and uncompressed
>> encoding available in the latest, high-capacity MiniDisc.
>> However Sony, et.al. have fatally crippled it with their draconian
>> file protection (DRM) schemes.
>
> Actually, the last vestige of that with respect to what you record
> yourself has been removed. For analog recording it is no longer
> encumbered.

http://www.minidisc.org/uploader_table.html
Sony equipment is not even listed anymore.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:19:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

gerrymcc@indigo.ie wrote:
> What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
> (analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
> inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

For me, it's direct to removeable hard disk on my workstation, with
DTRS as a backup. And yes, I have had the computer hang during a live
concert. That's why a tried and true backup machine is still on the
packing list.

In my experience, the DA-38 was the most reliable DTRS machine Tascam
ever made, though it's getting harder to find good tape. But every DTRS
machine I've used has been more reliable than any DAT machine I've
used. (I just had my Panasonic DAT eat an archive tape last week.) With
DTRS, I use a Prism bit-splitter, which allows me to record two tracks
of 24/96. It will also do 4 tracks of 24/48 or 6 tracks of 20/48 (and
of course 44.1 varients of the foregoing). The DA-38's native format is
8 tracks of 16/48. The later DTRS machines could do 8 tracks of 24/48,
but they seemed to be much more sensitive to tape drop-outs and very
finicky about tape.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

NOTE: HEADER REPLY ADDRESS GOES STRAIGHT TO THE BIT BUCKET! Real humans
can reply to davidlrickATyahooDOTcom.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:25:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <usTTe.13995$R5.1027@news.indigo.ie>, <gerrymcc@indigo.ie> wrote:
>
>>What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
>>(analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
>>inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...
>
>
> I'm running 1/4" tape, 1/2" tape, DAT, and DTRS. Plenty of other
> folks are going the hard disk route with gadgets like the DEVA or
> the Sound Devices recorders.

I was going to ask about the portable 1/2" recorder, but I've just realised
you're probably using some kind of mobile studio.

I got the impression that the poster was asking more for field recording devices
like the Nagra or UHER recorders (or DAT or Minidisk, or CF).

> --scott


--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Fun things to do with the Ultima games http://www.it-he.org
Developing a U6/U7 clone http://ire.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KA u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:25:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

JP Morris <jpm@it-he.org> wrote:
>I was going to ask about the portable 1/2" recorder, but I've just realised
>you're probably using some kind of mobile studio.

It's an ATR-104 in a shipping case. Two people can lift it and carry it
into the hall, which makes it portable.

I have a 440-8 1" recorder in three shipping cases, each of which can be
lifted by two people. That's pushing the borders of portable, although I
still take it out to music festivals.

>I got the impression that the poster was asking more for field recording devices
>like the Nagra or UHER recorders (or DAT or Minidisk, or CF).

The Nagra IV gets taken out regularly. The Nagra III even gets used now
and then, surprisingly enough. The Uher 4000 sits on the shelf collecting
dust. The HHB DAT machine is out all the time.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:27:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

spud wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:25:39 GMT, gerrymcc@indigo.ie wrote:
>
> Whatever current medium develops from here on out is going to be
> crippled or complicated by copy protection to the point you can't use
> it, it seems.

That's the main reason why I dived into analogue head-first (although it
seems I arrived a bit too late).

--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org
Fun things to do with the Ultima games http://www.it-he.org
Developing a U6/U7 clone http://ire.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KA u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 5:42:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

It depends if you need timecode. Any portable recorder that has good
timecode with will cost at least a few kilobucks. Half of the big
budget movies over the last several years have been recorded with our
portable hard disk recorder the Deva 2 or Deva 5 (about 10 to 15
kbucks). The audio for TV and Film now tends to be recorded onto a
laptop drive and then copied to a DVD-RAM disk during the day. The
DVD-RAM disk is sent to the post house and the audio on the hard drive
stays with the sound mixer for safety and for playback on set. (why
DVD-RAM and not DVD-R? DVD-RAM drives re-write bad sectors on the
fly and as a result are10 times more reliable than any other optical
media).

We don't see any customers using Flash because they generate 2 to
4Gigs of data every day and they cant be sure they will get their cards
back from post.

We have some customers who record music too, but most musical
recordings can be done while sitting down in a climate controlled
location. The Deva recorder is designed for professionals who may have
to record while on the back of a motorcycle in the desert or in
Antarctica.

In my experience laptop hard drives and DVD-RAM media are crazy
reliable when used in this application (not much head seeking going on
when recording audio). Much more so than 3.5 inch hard drives or DAT
tape.

-howy
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 3:19:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:
> "Bob Cain" wrote ...
>
>>Richard Crowley wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There is now reasonably decent capacity and uncompressed
>>>encoding available in the latest, high-capacity MiniDisc.
>>>However Sony, et.al. have fatally crippled it with their draconian
>>>file protection (DRM) schemes.
>>
>>Actually, the last vestige of that with respect to what you record
>>yourself has been removed. For analog recording it is no longer
>>encumbered.
>
>
> http://www.minidisc.org/uploader_table.html
> Sony equipment is not even listed anymore.

Any more? That site just hasn't been updated.

Sonic Stage 3.2, the software that manages the Hi-MD no
longer has restrictions on uploading analog recordings nor
will it erase them from the media as it once did after two
uploads.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 9:21:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

As a replacement for the Tascam you might consider the Fostex FR2
which I reviewed for Audio Media (read it here
www.themagicofradio.com). You can also find reviews of the PD6 DVD RAM
recorder there and the Aaton Cantar (if you have Bill Gates type
money). Other things for more money - Nagra BB+ (very easy to use,
compact flash, but doesn't do high sample rates), the Nagra V - very
high quality hard disk based and the Sonosax MINIR 82 6K$ size of a
packet of cigarettes and who knows if it exists?
For less money Marantz have a compact flash recorder and new on the
market so do M-Audio. In the UK the Fostex FR2 is half the price of
the Sound Devices but in the US I expect the gap is smaller and SD do
make truly great products.
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 11:32:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" wrote...
> Sonic Stage 3.2, the software that manages the Hi-MD no
> longer has restrictions on uploading analog recordings nor
> will it erase them from the media as it once did after two
> uploads.

You should send the minidisc.org people an email.
It does make them appear a bit more competitive.
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 6:59:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<gerrymcc@indigo.ie> wrote:

>What medium is used now for location recording? MiniDisk? Nagra
>(analog tape)? I liked the Tascam DAP-1 with its phantom powered
>inputs, very compact, but with DAT a non-option nowadays...

DAT is pretty much dead.

Our PDAudio system uses flash memory (CF and SD cards), USB hard drives
and both wired and wireless network storage.


--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
!