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Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

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May 16, 2005 1:10:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
much luck. Any help?

More about : karo cann sicilian

May 16, 2005 11:41:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

In article <428757e7$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,
"phillip" <phillip_ccnp@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?

How strong of a player are you?

Relatively inexperienced players tend to make the mistake of "blaming
the opening" - whereas a more nuanced study of your own games is likely
to reveal that you lost because of a tactical shot or because of a
mistake in positional judgement -- or even a series of the above.

The Caro-Kann is perfectly respectable, and it's in many ways one of the
easier defenses to play as black against 1.e4; I think you're probably
fooling yourself if you think that switching to the sicilian will solve
your problems.

At the casual and lower club levels, I think the Sicilian is usually a
mistake. It simply requires too much specific opening preparation, and
even white's "bad" responses (such as the Smith-Morra) score quite well.
White's game (a lead in development and a space advantage) often plays
exactly into what casual and class players want to do anyway (attack the
king!) whereas black's compensation usually takes the form of structural
advantages which you have to be pretty strong to take advantage of.

Don't look for a magic bullet in the opening.

-Ron
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 11:47:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

Karo comes in a bottle, not a can.

And if you can figure out a way to play the Caro-Kann against the
Sicilian, more power to you.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 5:14:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

>I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?

Your problem isn't with the opening that you are choosing, but with your
focus on variations rather than formations.

A formation-based opening repertoire is one you can use even if you don't
understand the specific moves you've memorized, plus your knowledge of
formations will often give you the key to finding the "book" moves (which
are "book" for a reason).

I have a free e-book on my site that can teach you how to play the opening
like a GM if you want a good reference.


--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 5:15:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

>> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
>> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
>> much luck. Any help?
>
> How strong of a player are you?
>
> Relatively inexperienced players tend to make the mistake of "blaming
> the opening" - whereas a more nuanced study of your own games is likely
> to reveal that you lost because of a tactical shot or because of a
> mistake in positional judgement -- or even a series of the above.

All of which usually stems from poor play in the opening.


> The Caro-Kann is perfectly respectable, and it's in many ways one of the
> easier defenses to play as black against 1.e4; I think you're probably
> fooling yourself if you think that switching to the sicilian will solve
> your problems.
>
> At the casual and lower club levels, I think the Sicilian is usually a
> mistake. It simply requires too much specific opening preparation, and
> even white's "bad" responses (such as the Smith-Morra) score quite well.

Better for Black to stay ignorant?

> White's game (a lead in development and a space advantage) often plays
> exactly into what casual and class players want to do anyway (attack the
> king!) whereas black's compensation usually takes the form of structural
> advantages which you have to be pretty strong to take advantage of.
>
> Don't look for a magic bullet in the opening.

That said, why not book up as much as possible?


--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
May 20, 2005 7:21:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

phillip wrote:
> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?
>
>

I am a weaker player who almost always plays the Sicilian against e4 but
I am looking to try out the Caro-Kann because it is time to try
something new.


At first I was getting beaten badly with it, but after abadoning the
Dragon for (the more solid) Scheveningen structures my game started to
improve. I now hold my own with it online against similarly rated players.

One book that helped a lot was "Mastering the Sicilian" by Danny Kopec.

The other thing that helps me after games is browsing a database with
move statistics and seeing how my choices stacked up against the Masters.

I have found that when getting my feet wet with any new opening the
"Starting Out" series by Everyman Chess is ideally suited for me.

They books usually include around 80 to 100 games. The games are almost
always available in the Chessbase online database if you want to
assemble PGN collections for training and study. (Pocket Fritz
interfaces very nicely with the online CB database). And most
importantly for me, the discussion has just enough detail for a weaker
player to actually complete the book in a reasonable time and start
using the opening.
Anonymous
May 20, 2005 7:21:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

In article <2gnje.11114$Y36.2083@trndny05>, eDog <eDog@nowhere.net>
wrote:

>
> The other thing that helps me after games is browsing a database with
> move statistics and seeing how my choices stacked up against the Masters.
>


This is often a bad idea, as has been pointed out here many times. For
example, suppose someone comes up with 17. b5 and he and others win,
say, 19 games with it. Then someone else finally comes up with 17. ....
Ne8!! to show that it's really 17. b5? He mops the floor up with the
other guy and word spreads quickly that 17. b5? is a losing move; no
master ever plays it again.

But you check out your database and see

17. b5 95% win rate for white

See the problem?



--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
May 20, 2005 11:55:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.chess,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc (More info?)

I am aware of the issue of digging up refuted lines, but thank you for
bringing it up.

The statistics in the chessbase database show you: the number of times
the move was played in the database, the avg. elo of the player playing
the move and the elo performance of the move.

You can also filter a database by date if you choose to and that should
reveal lines that disappeared after a certain date.

I rarely play against masters and when I lose to them it is hardly
because my database searches hooked me up with a refuted line!

Besides, refuted lines are often viable at the amateur level and can be
quite a lot of fun.

The colle system is pretty much considered a refuted line and it wins
for me on a daily basis against similarly rated opponents.

(It also loses for me on a daily basis but that is another matter).

>
> This is often a bad idea, as has been pointed out here many times. For
> example, suppose someone comes up with 17. b5 and he and others win,
> say, 19 games with it. Then someone else finally comes up with 17. ....
> Ne8!! to show that it's really 17. b5? He mops the floor up with the
> other guy and word spreads quickly that 17. b5? is a losing move; no
> master ever plays it again.
>
!