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phase cancellation question

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September 20, 2005 2:52:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three mics, two on piano
one on sax. the piano mics were panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock.
sax mic panned center.

the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud. can i somehow
lessen the volume of the piano with phase cancellation, or otherwise make
the sax louder
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 2:52:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1SRXe.36472$%w.22880@twister.nyc.rr.com

> recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three
> mics, two on piano one on sax. the piano mics were
> panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. sax mic panned
> center.

Now comes the punch line - why mic-per-track multitrack is
good:

> the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud.
> can i somehow lessen the volume of the piano with phase
> cancellation, or otherwise make the sax louder

You'll probably do better with clever equalization.
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 2:58:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1SRXe.36472$%w.22880@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three mics, two on piano
> one on sax. the piano mics were panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock.
> sax mic panned center.
>
> the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud. can i somehow
> lessen the volume of the piano with phase cancellation, or otherwise make
> the sax louder


You can try....
You may want to decode in M/S, then lowering M signal let's say 3dB and then
recoding to L/R.
That's an easy way....
But of course you have to check how it sounds like...
F.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:23:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

anon <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three mics, two on piano
>one on sax. the piano mics were panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock.
>sax mic panned center.
>
>the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud. can i somehow
>lessen the volume of the piano with phase cancellation, or otherwise make
>the sax louder

Probably not. Were you trying to monitor on headphones?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:42:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Federico wrote:

> You can try....
> You may want to decode in M/S, then lowering M signal let's say 3dB and then
> recoding to L/R.

That'll make the sax quieter!

remixing to mono might help, as the L and R sax signals will add in
phase (+6dB) while the L and R piano signals will add uncorrelated (+3dB).

Result: 3dB improvement in balance, no stereo.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but there's two alternative
approaches that might have worked better when recording:

1) stereo pair of mics placed where the acoustic balance is right.

2) one mic dedicated to one channel per instrument, then mix to taste later.

Anahata
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 1:01:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1SRXe.36472$%w.22880@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three mics, two on piano
> one on sax. the piano mics were panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock.
> sax mic panned center.
>
> the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud. can i somehow
> lessen the volume of the piano with phase cancellation, or otherwise make
> the sax louder
>
>

What is wrong with reducing the gains on the piano or raising the gain on
the sax? Sounds like an uneven gain structure.

Mike D.
September 21, 2005 2:56:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Federico ha scritto:
> "anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:1SRXe.36472$%w.22880@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
>>recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three mics, two on piano
>>one on sax. the piano mics were panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock.
>>sax mic panned center.
>>
>>the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud. can i somehow
>>lessen the volume of the piano with phase cancellation, or otherwise make
>>the sax louder
>
>
>
> You can try....
> You may want to decode in M/S, then lowering M signal let's say 3dB and then
> recoding to L/R.
> That's an easy way....
> But of course you have to check how it sounds like...
> F.
>
>
Pay attention! Lowering M? You will get an enhanced stereo image and you
will lower the saxophone respect to the piano. The opposite as wanted!
;-) The "Side" track will contain just piano, so lowering this will
reduce the image and raise the sax a bit.

regards ale
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 3:01:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sorry, I meant 3dB louder....
F.



"Anahata" <anahata@treewind.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:433003a9$0$22911$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
> Federico wrote:
>
> > You can try....
> > You may want to decode in M/S, then lowering M signal let's say 3dB and
then
> > recoding to L/R.
>
> That'll make the sax quieter!
>
> remixing to mono might help, as the L and R sax signals will add in
> phase (+6dB) while the L and R piano signals will add uncorrelated (+3dB).
>
> Result: 3dB improvement in balance, no stereo.
>
> I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but there's two alternative
> approaches that might have worked better when recording:
>
> 1) stereo pair of mics placed where the acoustic balance is right.
>
> 2) one mic dedicated to one channel per instrument, then mix to taste
later.
>
> Anahata
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 10:38:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

have a look here
http://www.csp-audio.com/examples.htm
it might help

"ale" <sparkwest@yahooc.om> schreef in bericht
news:%s0Ye.203$cu6.25506@news4.tin.it...
> Federico ha scritto:
> > "anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > news:1SRXe.36472$%w.22880@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> >
> >>recorded a duo of piano and sax to a stereo mix. three mics, two on
piano
> >>one on sax. the piano mics were panned roughly 9 o'clock and 3
o'clock.
> >>sax mic panned center.
> >>
> >>the music was good, the mix was bad. piano was too loud. can i somehow
> >>lessen the volume of the piano with phase cancellation, or otherwise
make
> >>the sax louder
> >
> >
> >
> > You can try....
> > You may want to decode in M/S, then lowering M signal let's say 3dB and
then
> > recoding to L/R.
> > That's an easy way....
> > But of course you have to check how it sounds like...
> > F.
> >
> >
> Pay attention! Lowering M? You will get an enhanced stereo image and you
> will lower the saxophone respect to the piano. The opposite as wanted!
> ;-) The "Side" track will contain just piano, so lowering this will
> reduce the image and raise the sax a bit.
>
> regards ale
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 10:49:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"> >
> >
>
> What is wrong with reducing the gains on the piano or raising the gain on
> the sax? Sounds like an uneven gain structure.
>
> Mike D.
>--------------------no, he can't do that...he mixed to stereo remember, the
mix is locked in....!
Ray
>
!