Low-end nightmare!

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound (More info?)

Jonny Durango wrote:

> I should probably put this in the live-sound group but I like RAP so
> here it is:
>
> Was running live sound for a top 40's cover band last night. Everything
> was routed through a Mackie 1604, then off to one CS1200 for the subs
> and another for high-mid drivers.

Where's the crossover in this scheme of things ?

Graham




>
> Sound check of individual instruments went just fine, but when they
> started playing, the low-end was muddy and had absolutely no
> articulation, which is a nightmare for top 40's dance music. The kick
> sounded okay but you couldn't tell what the bass player was playing. It
> sounded almost like he was trying to play over a mic that was getting a
> bunch of low-end feedback (although this wasn't the case of course).
>
> I tried notching out and/or boosting super lows (20-40k), mid lows
> (40-200k) and high lows (above 200k), even tried cutting the lows
> completely and cranking the highs, as well as cutting all the low's out
> of the mics on stage and even the kick drum (was getting more punch out
> of the mids anyway)
>
> So what gives? It sounded okay in sound check and then all of a sudden,
> MUD. It was so bad the guitarist jumped off stage and tried to help me
> out and we got it sounding okay by just turning the bass way down so it
> didn't muddy up the entire mix but we were never able to fix the
> problem. I'm chalking it up to poor acoustics in the room and/or phase
> issues between the bassist's amp (which wasn't THAT loud) and the subs.
>
> Any tips on what to try in a situation like this would be GREATLY
> appreciated. I thought I was gonna lose my mind (and possibly my job)
> last night. Thanks!
>
> --
>
> Jonny Durango
>
> "If the key of C is the people's key, what is the key of the bourgeoisie?"

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> Jonny Durango wrote:
>
>
>>I'm chalking it up to poor acoustics in the room and/or phase
>>issues between the bassist's amp (which wasn't THAT loud) and the subs.
>
>
> Oh !
>
> You were trying to provide extra amplification for the bass guitar with a tiny
> PA ?
>
> That's one of your troubles for starters.
>
> Graham
>
>
>

Yeah I figured as much.....but the bassist only had a single 15" played
relatively quiet compared to the dual 18" black widow subs. I'll watch
for that next time and maybe have the bassist go completely DI and give
him a seperate monitor mix. Thanks Graham!

--

Jonny Durango

"If the key of C is the people's key, what is the key of the bourgeoisie?"

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jonny Durango <jonnydurango1BUSH_FROM_OFFICE@comcast.net> wrote:
>Well it sounded A LOT better if I just muted the bass channel
>altogether, but the bass amp alone wasn't loud enough to cut through the
>mix and it still sounded kinda muddy, but MUCH better.....the room
>acoustics were pretty bad. There was a super high ceiling directly above
>the stage but the rest of the venue had low ceilings.

So, you had two problems. First, you had some room issues, secondly you
probably had too small a PA to be able to handle the bass rig. Most typical
club PA systems can't go down anywhere NEAR low enough to deal with the
fundamental from the bass, so if you want to actually make the bass heard
you need to start with a pretty grubby tone that has no real low end.

Were you miking the bass cabinet or using a DI? You'll do much better
to mike a cabinet in these situations since you'll get more high frequency
stuff, but you still shouldn't expect much.

>The speakers were place directly in front of the stage. I'm guessing
>those high ceilings were generating all sorts of nasty standing waves
>and projecting them out to the dance floor......coupled with the phase
>between the bass amp and the subs. Does this sound reasonable?

Maybe, but you can find this out easily by moving the speakers a couple
feet between sets and seeing if the problem frequencies change.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Jonny Durango <jonnydurango1BUSH_FROM_OFFICE@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Well it sounded A LOT better if I just muted the bass channel
>>altogether, but the bass amp alone wasn't loud enough to cut through the
>>mix and it still sounded kinda muddy, but MUCH better.....the room
>>acoustics were pretty bad. There was a super high ceiling directly above
>>the stage but the rest of the venue had low ceilings.
>
>
> So, you had two problems. First, you had some room issues, secondly you
> probably had too small a PA to be able to handle the bass rig. Most typical
> club PA systems can't go down anywhere NEAR low enough to deal with the
> fundamental from the bass, so if you want to actually make the bass heard
> you need to start with a pretty grubby tone that has no real low end.
>
> Were you miking the bass cabinet or using a DI? You'll do much better
> to mike a cabinet in these situations since you'll get more high frequency
> stuff, but you still shouldn't expect much.
>
>
>>The speakers were place directly in front of the stage. I'm guessing
>>those high ceilings were generating all sorts of nasty standing waves
>>and projecting them out to the dance floor......coupled with the phase
>>between the bass amp and the subs. Does this sound reasonable?
>
>
> Maybe, but you can find this out easily by moving the speakers a couple
> feet between sets and seeing if the problem frequencies change.
> --scott

Thanks for the advice Scott...will take all this into account next time
the LF gods turn their face against me.

--

Jonny Durango

www.jdurango.com

"If the key of C is the people's key, what is the key of the bourgeoisie?"

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Fletch I can't thank you enough for this post. This is a great piece of
advice for a relative novice like myself. In fact there were a lot of
things I would've done differently had I had complete control over the
PA....for one, the on stage monitors were much louder than they needed
to be which caused some feedback problems. Each time I'd turn them down
I'd get a nasty look from the singers. Secondly, the bassist must've had
the guitar itself EQ'ed to rolloff all the high end, because I even went
to his bass rig directly and wasn't able to pull anymore mids out of it.

Anyhow, that's exactly how I felt, they expected me to do my job working
within their own restrictions and preferences, but I didn't feel
comfortable asking for complete control, being relatively new to live
sound period, and very new to this band.

Anyhow, the band invested in a digital mixer which should make things
MUCH easier because they have much more control over EQ on individual
channels and maybe the most important feature is that they can add a
noisegate to each chan. Anyhow, I'm going to remember your advice and
tell all future clients that if they insist on doing unreasonable
things, I can't be blamed for the outcome.

Jonny Durango

Fletch wrote:
> Jonny Durango wrote On 09/24/05 23:22,:
>
>> I should probably put this in the live-sound group but I like RAP so
>> here it is:
>>
>> Was running live sound for a top 40's cover band last night.
>> Everything was routed through a Mackie 1604, then off to one CS1200
>> for the subs and another for high-mid drivers.
>>
>> Sound check of individual instruments went just fine, but when they
>> started playing, the low-end was muddy and had absolutely no
>> articulation, which is a nightmare for top 40's dance music. The kick
>> sounded okay but you couldn't tell what the bass player was playing.
>> It sounded almost like he was trying to play over a mic that was
>> getting a bunch of low-end feedback (although this wasn't the case of
>> course).
>>
>> I tried notching out and/or boosting super lows (20-40k), mid lows
>> (40-200k) and high lows (above 200k), even tried cutting the lows
>> completely and cranking the highs, as well as cutting all the low's
>> out of the mics on stage and even the kick drum (was getting more
>> punch out of the mids anyway)
>>
>> So what gives? It sounded okay in sound check and then all of a
>> sudden, MUD. It was so bad the guitarist jumped off stage and tried to
>> help me out and we got it sounding okay by just turning the bass way
>> down so it didn't muddy up the entire mix but we were never able to
>> fix the problem. I'm chalking it up to poor acoustics in the room
>> and/or phase issues between the bassist's amp (which wasn't THAT loud)
>> and the subs.
>>
>> Any tips on what to try in a situation like this would be GREATLY
>> appreciated. I thought I was gonna lose my mind (and possibly my job)
>> last night. Thanks!
>>
>
> Having read most of the posts, here are my thoughts (some of which may
> be echoes of other comments...)...
>
> The bass player needs to sit down and define his/her sound. This means
> they have to work the amp eq and figure out how to get a good clean
> sound; they may even have the wrong setup for what they want to do. This
> is especially true if you're going to mic up the cabinet -- which means
> you cannot use a Sure SM-57, you have to use a mic that is tailored for
> lower frequencies. Clear, articulated and clean sound will remove most
> of the problems you mention. Though, that said, a room can bring ugly
> issues to the surface. This can be compensated through the use of a
> parametric to kill the offending frequencies in the PA without also
> destroying frequencies that live next door that help make the sound good.
>
> Second, if you have the channels available, use both a mic and DI and
> blend them. This will help because you get a direct feed off the bass,
> which can give you the definition needed to help make a clean sound
> (unless the bass player is rolling off all the tone at the guitar -- in
> which case, even sitting down with the amp and creating a sound will be
> difficult); the cabinet will give you the "driven" sound of the amp. You
> will need to set the mic a couple feet in front the cabinet to get a
> more "focused" sound (even though Low E on a bass has a waveform of 25
> feet).
>
> Third, you may not be working your room EQ properly. Hard to say. You
> can also add a bit of compression to the bass channel to even things
> out; this often will increase definition and clarity a bit by increasing
> the "presence" of the "high" end in the notes.
>
> Finally, turning down the stage volume can do wonders for the sound of a
> band. There really isn't any reason for high volume stages, particularly
> in clubs, except arrogant guitar players insist on their Marshalls being
> "wide open" (I am a performing guitar player so I know this mentality
> all too well). With lower stage volumes, there is less bleed off the
> stage. Less bleed means less "interaction" with the room and immediately
> helps to create a cleaner sound out of the PA system. The engineer now
> has control of the sound, as it should be -- it's what they're hired
> for, why take the "power" away from them with overbearing stage volumes?
>
> A band also has to understand that once the volumes are set on their
> gear, they can't walk back and crank it up because they "need" it. They
> don't "neeeeeed" it. Levels must remain as they were at the beginning of
> the evening. Take note of their amp levels in the beginning and then
> look at them at the end of the night before they tear down. Are they the
> same? Then they paid attention to your direction. If not, they care less
> about the overall sound and too much about their own sound, ego driven
> as it may be.
>
> I can't tell you how many bands I've sat down and told to turn down
> their stage volume and stated plainly that if they did not do this, I
> can and will sit down and do the best I can to make them sound good, but
> that unless they follow my recommendations, I can't be blamed for bad
> sound if the band won't operate within the limitations of their PA
> system. I can always fold back anything mic'd up into the monitors if
> they need to hear themselves better.
>
> This is the number one offending problem with many bands. The sooner
> they understand the requirements to have a good sound in the audience,
> the sooner they become very co-operative and even modify their gear
> setups to make sure they will still be able to get their "sound" but
> keep the volume down so the PA is doing the work.
>
> Any band that ignores this recommendation will not receive my services a
> second time. I have a reputation as a good sound man and I know my
> stuff. I'm not the best in the world, but I can make a band sound great
> if they co-operate so I can do my job. I will not let a band ruin that
> hard earned reputation.
>
> I hope this gives you some insight in what you can do to improve the
> sound of the band.
>
> --fletch


--

Jonny Durango

www.jdurango.com

"If the key of C is the people's key, what is the key of the bourgeoisie?"