Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
I am considering going to a tube amp, after 25 years of solid state
amps. (Specifically, it is a conrad-johnson, but my question is general.)
I have read comments through the years about the problems tube amps
have ("always in the shop", etc.). Is this a reality? I live in a town
with no tube amp dealers, and would need to send it back to the manufacturer
if it fails. Are my knees quaking for no good reason?
By the way, I don't consider the need to bias the tubes a problem. I would
be grateful for any feedback.
--Leslie
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
I repair high end audio, and I do as much or more solid state than
tube, and most of my customers are tube equipment sellers. Tubes do
require more care and feeding than solid state though. As long as you
keep an eye on bias and periodically replace the output tubes in
particular, ther's no reason a tube amp won't be as reliable.
Conrad-Johnson are particularly good.
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:09:20 GMT, "Spongebob" <stanley5@charter.net>
wrote:
>I am considering going to a tube amp, after 25 years of solid state
>amps. (Specifically, it is a conrad-johnson, but my question is general.)
>I have read comments through the years about the problems tube amps
>have ("always in the shop", etc.). Is this a reality? I live in a town
>with no tube amp dealers, and would need to send it back to the manufacturer
>if it fails. Are my knees quaking for no good reason?
>
>By the way, I don't consider the need to bias the tubes a problem. I would
>be grateful for any feedback.
>--Leslie
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
I am probably going to get into trouble for saying this , but the higher
end tube amps sound the same as
solid state. We are going to need more information about what you intend
to drive in what size room.
Could you live with an integrated amp or do you want to go bananas with
dual mono amplifiers.
As far as sending amps back to the manufacturer is concerned, I think
that is a good idea if you do need repairs
but it is a rare occurence. What dealers do you have nearby or within 90
miles? Would you be buying a new Conrad Johnson
or a used one?
Spongebob wrote:
> I am considering going to a tube amp, after 25 years of solid state
> amps. (Specifically, it is a conrad-johnson, but my question is general.)
> I have read comments through the years about the problems tube amps
> have ("always in the shop", etc.). Is this a reality? I live in a town
> with no tube amp dealers, and would need to send it back to the manufacturer
> if it fails. Are my knees quaking for no good reason?
>
> By the way, I don't consider the need to bias the tubes a problem. I would
> be grateful for any feedback.
> --Leslie
>
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
spongebob wrote:
>I am considering going to a tube amp, after 25 years of solid state
>amps. (Specifically, it is a conrad-johnson, but my question is general.)
>I have read comments through the years about the problems tube amps
>have ("always in the shop", etc.). Is this a reality? I live in a town
>with no tube amp dealers, and would need to send it back to the manufacturer
>if it fails. Are my knees quaking for no good reason?
>
>By the way, I don't consider the need to bias the tubes a problem. I would
>be grateful for any feedback.
>--Leslie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tube amplifiers have both their proponents and detractors. Comments about lack
of reliability and/or high repair needs from the latter group are, AFAIK, not
supported by any empirical evidence indicating those claims are valid.
I can only speak from personal experience, of course. Starting with the first
amplifier I ever owned, an integrated H.H. Scott amplifier that I built, up to
the present time, I've owned various tubed products, including a DAC with a
tubed output stage. None of these products has presented any unusual service
needs. Tube replacement is necessary at some point of extended usage, but that
is simply a maintenance issue. For the record, I'm currently using a Conrad
Johnson preamplifier and amplifier, both tubed, and have had no problems with
either one of them.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
"Philip Meech" wrote:
> I am probably going to get into trouble for saying this , but the higher
> end tube amps sound the same as solid state. We are going to need more
information about what you intend
> to drive in what size room.
My room in 20 x 14, with an 8' ceiling.
> Could you live with an integrated amp or do you want to go bananas with
> dual mono amplifiers.
I think an integrated amp will do me fine. I don't ever "turn it up". I
have Spendor SP 1/2
speakers on Sound Anchor stands. Kimber 8TC cable, various interconnects.
> As far as sending amps back to the manufacturer is concerned, I think
> that is a good idea if you do need repairs
> but it is a rare occurence. What dealers do you have nearby or within 90
> miles? Would you be buying a new Conrad Johnson
> or a used one?
I have no dealer within 200 miles, so I will be buying over the Internet.
--Leslie
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
Bruce J. Richman <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote:
> Tube amplifiers have both their proponents and detractors. Comments about lack
> of reliability and/or high repair needs from the latter group are, AFAIK, not
> supported by any empirical evidence indicating those claims are valid.
Lack of reliability or the converse is relative. Given equal design
attention to reliability, tube amplifiers are simply not as reliable as
solid state amplifiers, especially as regards power amplifiers. The natural
manufacturing variances in tubes themselves, the the increased heat produced by
them, (meaning increased stresses on associated components) and the higher
voltages dictate the empirical facts of the matter.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
There are some integrateds in all price ranges by C-J, Audio Research,
VTL, Manley, VAC if you have the bucks. Next level is varios amps made
in China and then upgraded with the latest high end parts. I emailed you
a website in Western NY that specializes in those around 1-1.5K for 50wpc.
There are some issues surrounding the depth of soundstage in your room
versus the proper amount of power, but other members are more qualified
than I to discuss the right amount. There are integrated amps that go up
to 85wpc. If you need more, then a preamp/amp setup is required like
Bruce has.
Spongebob wrote:
> "Philip Meech" wrote:
>
>>I am probably going to get into trouble for saying this , but the higher
>>end tube amps sound the same as solid state. We are going to need more
>
> information about what you intend
>
>>to drive in what size room.
>
>
> My room in 20 x 14, with an 8' ceiling.
>
>
>>Could you live with an integrated amp or do you want to go bananas with
>>dual mono amplifiers.
>
>
> I think an integrated amp will do me fine. I don't ever "turn it up". I
> have Spendor SP 1/2
> speakers on Sound Anchor stands. Kimber 8TC cable, various interconnects.
>
>
>>As far as sending amps back to the manufacturer is concerned, I think
>>that is a good idea if you do need repairs
>>but it is a rare occurence. What dealers do you have nearby or within 90
>>miles? Would you be buying a new Conrad Johnson
>>or a used one?
>
>
> I have no dealer within 200 miles, so I will be buying over the Internet.
> --Leslie
>
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
jjnunes wrote:
>Bruce J. Richman <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Tube amplifiers have both their proponents and detractors. Comments about
>lack
>> of reliability and/or high repair needs from the latter group are, AFAIK,
>not
>> supported by any empirical evidence indicating those claims are valid.
>
>Lack of reliability or the converse is relative. Given equal design
>attention to reliability, tube amplifiers are simply not as reliable as
>solid state amplifiers, especially as regards power amplifiers. The natural
>manufacturing variances in tubes themselves, the the increased heat produced
>by
>them, (meaning increased stresses on associated components) and the higher
>voltages dictate the empirical facts of the matter.
>
>
>
>
For the average purchaser contemplating purchase of an amplifier, I would
suspect that reliability would be defined more practically by a manufacturer's
"track record". More specifically, factors such as build quality, attention to
design, as you mention, etc. may play a large role, whether the product be
tubed or SS in determining its "reliability". As regards heat considerations,
I've often heard it reported that many Class A amplifiers, for example, tend to
"run quite hot" compared to others and may require relatively massive heat
sinks to dissipate some of that heat. If this is true, then it would seem that
tubes are not the only item on an amplifier's parts list that can produce heat.
I would recommend that prospective purchasers try and get as much information
about the specific amplifier - and that manufacturer's reputation for
reliability - as they can, whether it be a SS or tubed amplifier.
Of course, if there are published empirical results indicating higher return
rates or service calls for tubed amplifiers
than for SS amplifiers - or vice versa - it would be interesting to see.
Those in a better position to answer this question re. reliability would be,
manufacturers who have been selling both types of amplifiers for years - e.g.
Conrad Johnson or Audio Research. Or perhaps audio dealers who have been
selling both types of amplifiers over a length of time.
In their experience, is there a significant difference in the relative %age of
service requests as a function of sales volume?
That is the type of data I'd be looking at, along with a given manufacturer's
reputation, rather than relying on generalizations based on a given bias (no
pun intended) for one class of products or the other.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
Spongebob wrote:
>I am considering going to a tube amp, after 25 years of solid state
>amps. (Specifically, it is a conrad-johnson, but my question is general.)
>I have read comments through the years about the problems tube amps
>have ("always in the shop", etc.). Is this a reality? I live in a town
>with no tube amp dealers, and would need to send it back to the manufacturer
>if it fails. Are my knees quaking for no good reason?
>
>By the way, I don't consider the need to bias the tubes a problem. I would
>be grateful for any feedback.
>--Leslie
>
Leslie:
You sound like me about 9 years ago. Although you didn't provide any
indication of your budget, I STRONGLY recommend the Balanced Audio
Technology tube amps; not only are they excellent sounding and extremely
well made, the company stands behind its products. Owning their tube
amps is not that much different from solid state as they are
self-biasing and the tube complement typically lasts 4 - 5 years. Check
them out at http://www.balanced.com/.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
Phillip Meech wrote:
>There are some integrateds in all price ranges by C-J, Audio Research,
>VTL, Manley, VAC if you have the bucks. Next level is varios amps made
>in China and then upgraded with the latest high end parts. I emailed you
>a website in Western NY that specializes in those around 1-1.5K for 50wpc.
>There are some issues surrounding the depth of soundstage in your room
>versus the proper amount of power, but other members are more qualified
>than I to discuss the right amount. There are integrated amps that go up
>to 85wpc. If you need more, then a preamp/amp setup is required like
>Bruce has.
>
Just for the record, my preamp/amplifier combination has approximately 70-75
watts/channel. The C-J Premier 11A is rated at 70 watts/channel into 4 or 8
ohms with its supplied 6550 output tubes. However, I'm using Ei KT-90 Type 3s
which, according to several tube experts, produce slightly more power in most
amplifiers suitable for their use. Before switching to KT-90s, I checked with
C-J and was assured this was an appropriate "tweak".
>Spongebob wrote:
>
>> "Philip Meech" wrote:
>>
>>>I am probably going to get into trouble for saying this , but the higher
>>>end tube amps sound the same as solid state. We are going to need more
>>
>> information about what you intend
>>
>>>to drive in what size room.
>>
>>
>> My room in 20 x 14, with an 8' ceiling.
>>
>>
>>>Could you live with an integrated amp or do you want to go bananas with
>>>dual mono amplifiers.
>>
>>
>> I think an integrated amp will do me fine. I don't ever "turn it up". I
>> have Spendor SP 1/2
>> speakers on Sound Anchor stands. Kimber 8TC cable, various interconnects.
>>
>>
>>>As far as sending amps back to the manufacturer is concerned, I think
>>>that is a good idea if you do need repairs
>>>but it is a rare occurence. What dealers do you have nearby or within 90
>>>miles? Would you be buying a new Conrad Johnson
>>>or a used one?
>>
>>
>> I have no dealer within 200 miles, so I will be buying over the Internet.
>> --Leslie
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
On 5/27/04 6:40 PM, in article y7utc.5462$eY2.1777@attbi_s02,
"jjnunes@sonic.net" <jjnunes@sonic.net> wrote:
> Bruce J. Richman <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Tube amplifiers have both their proponents and detractors. Comments about
>> lack
>> of reliability and/or high repair needs from the latter group are, AFAIK, not
>> supported by any empirical evidence indicating those claims are valid.
>
> Lack of reliability or the converse is relative. Given equal design
> attention to reliability, tube amplifiers are simply not as reliable as
> solid state amplifiers, especially as regards power amplifiers. The natural
> manufacturing variances in tubes themselves, the the increased heat produced
> by
> them, (meaning increased stresses on associated components) and the higher
> voltages dictate the empirical facts of the matter.
A tube will generally have fewer hours on them between replacement than
semiconductors - though the repair is fairly straightforward and simple for
an end user to do. A semiconductor failure is generally catastrophic in
that it will blow up and the amplifier will have to be sent in for repair.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
Bruce J. Richman <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote:
> jjnunes wrote:
>>Bruce J. Richman <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tube amplifiers have both their proponents and detractors. Comments about
>>lack
>>> of reliability and/or high repair needs from the latter group are, AFAIK,
>>not
>>> supported by any empirical evidence indicating those claims are valid.
>>
>>Lack of reliability or the converse is relative. Given equal design
>>attention to reliability, tube amplifiers are simply not as reliable as
>>solid state amplifiers, especially as regards power amplifiers. The natural
>>manufacturing variances in tubes themselves, the the increased heat produced
>>by
>>them, (meaning increased stresses on associated components) and the higher
>>voltages dictate the empirical facts of the matter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> For the average purchaser contemplating purchase of an amplifier, I would
> suspect that reliability would be defined more practically by a manufacturer's
> "track record". More specifically, factors such as build quality, attention to
> design, as you mention, etc. may play a large role, whether the product be
> tubed or SS in determining its "reliability". As regards heat considerations,
> I've often heard it reported that many Class A amplifiers, for example, tend to
> "run quite hot" compared to others and may require relatively massive heat
> sinks to dissipate some of that heat. If this is true, then it would seem that
> tubes are not the only item on an amplifier's parts list that can produce heat.
You seemed to have missed the meaning of what I said: "Given equal design attention
to reliability." Are class A amplifiers only solid state?
> Those in a better position to answer this question re. reliability would be,
> manufacturers who have been selling both types of amplifiers for years - e.g.
> Conrad Johnson or Audio Research. Or perhaps audio dealers who have been
> selling both types of amplifiers over a length of time.
> In their experience, is there a significant difference in the relative %age of
> service requests as a function of sales volume?
> That is the type of data I'd be looking at, along with a given manufacturer's
> reputation, rather than relying on generalizations based on a given bias (no
> pun intended) for one class of products or the other.
I am one of those in that have been in that position. In design, testing,
manufacturing and servicing. It is simply an honest appraisal of my
experience and those of many I was associated with. It is a given among
those who have done it, and dealing with it is part of being in the business
of tube amplifiers. And you suggest inordinate bias without any evidence?
People buy tube amps because they simply like and prefer them, and they are
willing to put up with the additional reliability issues for that reason.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
"Bruce J. Richman" <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote in message
news:IBxtc.1542$IB.25@attbi_s04...
> Those in a better position to answer this question re. reliability would
be,
> manufacturers who have been selling both types of amplifiers for years -
e.g.
> Conrad Johnson or Audio Research. Or perhaps audio dealers who have been
> selling both types of amplifiers over a length of time.
> In their experience, is there a significant difference in the relative
%age of
> service requests as a function of sales volume?
> That is the type of data I'd be looking at, along with a given
manufacturer's
> reputation, rather than relying on generalizations based on a given bias
(no
> pun intended) for one class of products or the other.
>
I had a pair of Audio Research D76As which ran heavy duty for about 18 years
driving the tweeters of Tympani 1-Cs with the original four (GE) 6550 tubes
in place, ditto for the rest (Amperex, '70s vintage). I sent one of the amps
to ARC for service because I felt it was "spitting" too loudly. ARC sent it
back saying it was running according to spec and did zip to it. I had to
unload them because they weren't able to drive 3/4 ohm Tympanis. I chose
those amps because of their supposed synergy with Maggies in the years
before I knew better.
Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)
Bromo <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On 5/27/04 6:40 PM, in article y7utc.5462$eY2.1777@attbi_s02,
> "jjnunes@sonic.net" <jjnunes@sonic.net> wrote:
>> Bruce J. Richman <bjrichman@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tube amplifiers have both their proponents and detractors. Comments about
>>> lack
>>> of reliability and/or high repair needs from the latter group are, AFAIK, not
>>> supported by any empirical evidence indicating those claims are valid.
>>
>> Lack of reliability or the converse is relative. Given equal design
>> attention to reliability, tube amplifiers are simply not as reliable as
>> solid state amplifiers, especially as regards power amplifiers. The natural
>> manufacturing variances in tubes themselves, the the increased heat produced
>> by
>> them, (meaning increased stresses on associated components) and the higher
>> voltages dictate the empirical facts of the matter.
> A tube will generally have fewer hours on them between replacement than
> semiconductors - though the repair is fairly straightforward and simple for
> an end user to do. A semiconductor failure is generally catastrophic in
> that it will blow up and the amplifier will have to be sent in for repair.
A lot of tube amps burn up cathode and plate resistors when a tube becomes
defective. Some have more designed in reserve capacity to handle this than
others. Most tube power amps need an AC balance adjustment after replacing
an output tube unless the owner is willing to accept substandard performance.
(or replace the whole output stage with matched pairs) Sometimes they
decide they prefer the second harmonic distortion when they don't and don't
bother.
Yes, in the days of Flame Linear and etc. a lot of SS amps blew and destroyed
speakers. (so have tube OTL's) Devices have come a long way since then and SOA
is generally very much higher. Nothing is perfect, but some are closer than
others. But in general, tube amps require more attention. Users accept this
because they like them.
