Definition of "tube component"

[Guest]

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I've always wondered what it takes for a component to have tube
characteristics. Is it sort of like the "one drop" theory of racial
identity; that if you have so much as one drop of african-american
blood in your veins then you're black? Does even one tube somewhere
in the signal path make a component "tubed?"

I ask, because I saw a web page advertising an amplifier that could be
bought as solid state or tubed. The tubed version was identical to
the solid state version, except there was a cathode follower in front
of the solid state amp. This cathode follower was the only tube in
the circuit, and it wasn't even in the feedback loop. It was
certainly a quick way to bring a tube amplifier onto the market!

Norm Strong

 

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"normanstrong" <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<gvjBc.64856$Hg2.37669@attbi_s04>...
> I've always wondered what it takes for a component to have tube
> characteristics. Is it sort of like the "one drop" theory of racial
> identity; that if you have so much as one drop of african-american
> blood in your veins then you're black? Does even one tube somewhere
> in the signal path make a component "tubed?"
>
> I ask, because I saw a web page advertising an amplifier that could be
> bought as solid state or tubed. The tubed version was identical to
> the solid state version, except there was a cathode follower in front
> of the solid state amp. This cathode follower was the only tube in
> the circuit, and it wasn't even in the feedback loop. It was
> certainly a quick way to bring a tube amplifier onto the market!
>
> Norm Strong

You should check out musical instrument amplifiers, if you want to see
some real marketing gimmickry in the area of tubed equipment.

It depends on what you want the tube for. If the purpose is to give
some mild asymmetrical nonlinearity, then a single tube is enough. Or,
you could get the same results with a class-A JFET gain stage or a
diode in an op amp feedback loop, or a DSP algorithm. In the case of
musical amplifiers (hopefully not an issue with hi-fi), tubes are
sometimes favored for their forgiving overload characteristics, and a
single tube at the front end is sufficient for this purpose.

If you want tubes in order to remove all vestiges of solid state from
your rig, then you have to get an all-tube rig.

 

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"normanstrong" <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gvjBc.64856$Hg2.37669@attbi_s04...
> I've always wondered what it takes for a component to have tube
> characteristics. Is it sort of like the "one drop" theory of racial
> identity; that if you have so much as one drop of african-american
> blood in your veins then you're black? Does even one tube somewhere
> in the signal path make a component "tubed?"
>
> I ask, because I saw a web page advertising an amplifier that could be
> bought as solid state or tubed. The tubed version was identical to
> the solid state version, except there was a cathode follower in front
> of the solid state amp. This cathode follower was the only tube in
> the circuit, and it wasn't even in the feedback loop. It was
> certainly a quick way to bring a tube amplifier onto the market!
>

At best that normally would be described as a "hybrid". Tube amp is usually
reserved for an amplifier with tube output stages. The language is pretty
universal among audiophiles and audiophile publications. The web page you
quote was clearly an exception (and misleading) if it called it a tube
amplifier.

 

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"normanstrong" <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<gvjBc.64856$Hg2.37669@attbi_s04>...
> I've always wondered what it takes for a component to have tube
> characteristics. Is it sort of like the "one drop" theory of racial
> identity; that if you have so much as one drop of african-american
> blood in your veins then you're black? Does even one tube somewhere
> in the signal path make a component "tubed?"
>

It is this line of questioning that has prompted quite a few of the
professional audio engineers I know to make a distinction between
"tubed" gear and "tube" gear:

"Tubed" gear is any component that has a tube in it.

"Tube" gear is equipment that could have existed prior to the
invention of the transistor.

 

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"Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
news:xgPBc.73339$Hg2.22335@attbi_s04...
> "normanstrong" <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<gvjBc.64856$Hg2.37669@attbi_s04>...
> > I've always wondered what it takes for a component to have tube
> > characteristics. Is it sort of like the "one drop" theory of racial
> > identity; that if you have so much as one drop of african-american
> > blood in your veins then you're black? Does even one tube somewhere
> > in the signal path make a component "tubed?"
> >
>
> It is this line of questioning that has prompted quite a few of the
> professional audio engineers I know to make a distinction between
> "tubed" gear and "tube" gear:
>
> "Tubed" gear is any component that has a tube in it.
>
> "Tube" gear is equipment that could have existed prior to the
> invention of the transistor.
>

Could have existed? What does that mean? My "tubed" ARC SP-3A-1 has a
transistor in it. I found out because it once failed and had to be replaced.
Is it a "hybrid"? I don't ordinarily look at a circuit diagram, or ask to
see the owner's manual, either before purchasing a component or listening to
music.

 

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"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message news:<oy8Cc.162772$Ly.113587@attbi_s01>...
> "Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:xgPBc.73339$Hg2.22335@attbi_s04...

> >
> > "Tubed" gear is any component that has a tube in it.
> >
> > "Tube" gear is equipment that could have existed prior to the
> > invention of the transistor.
> >
>
> Could have existed? What does that mean?

Meaning that had someone decided to design that circuit in 1959 they
wouldn't have to resort to wishful thinking or sci-fi fantasy; they
could have designed & built it with then-current technology. (I
realize that may not be an entirely accurate characterization of
contemporary "tube" gear, as conceivably transformers and passive
components have improved in the last 40 years...but a true "tube"
preamp or power amp according to this distinction would be one whose
schematic wouldn't cause Fonzy's electrical engineer buddy to scratch
his head and go "what the heck are those PNP thangs there?")

> My "tubed" ARC SP-3A-1 has a
> transistor in it. I found out because it once failed and had to be replaced.
> Is it a "hybrid"?

You say it has a tube and it has a transistor; ergo it must be a
hybrid. Or, in the language of the recording engineers I paraphrased
previously, it is "tubed". (Or it could be just as accurately
described as "transistored" but that apparently doesn't have the
cache, the elan.)

> I don't ordinarily look at a circuit diagram, or ask to
> see the owner's manual, either before purchasing a component or listening to
> music.

Nor should you have to. These descriptions (Tube versus Transistor,
Tube versus Tubed, Tu-be or Not Tu-be) are peripheral to the matters
at hand. I'd certainly want to know if there were a tube in something
I was about to purchase (or about to take on a long flight) simply for
maintenance & reliability concerns. But the presence of either a tube
or transistor in some circuit would not & should not influence ones
appreciation of that component's ability to reproduce music.

 

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"Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UIgCc.73555$2i5.9859@attbi_s52...
> "Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
news:<oy8Cc.162772$Ly.113587@attbi_s01>...
> > "Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
> > news:xgPBc.73339$Hg2.22335@attbi_s04...
>
> > >
> > > "Tubed" gear is any component that has a tube in it.
> > >
> > > "Tube" gear is equipment that could have existed prior to the
> > > invention of the transistor.
> > >
> >
So my vintage classic *tube* ARC SP-3A-1 pre-amp having 8 (eight)
ECC83/12AX7A and one Delco DTS-410 transistor should be correctly termed a
"hybrid"? I understand your point but don't think (m)any people would agree.
Perhaps the transistor is employed in such a way that it cannot contribute
to the sound, but it's there nevertheless. If this should in fact be the
case, the (and your) "classic" terminology" breaks down.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

> My "tubed" ARC SP-3A-1 has a
> transistor in it. I found out because it once failed and had to be replaced.
> Is it a "hybrid"?


I suspect the transitor was in the DC regulation somewhere; I know the D75N
used a string of zener diodes for HV regulation (they explosively failed on
my my friends unit).

The designs I liked the best from the 70's were Dave Berning's; he used cheap
tubes with the operating points nailed to the wall by solid-state devices.
There were no solid-state devices in the signal path, but the tubes could
not wander outside their linear range as components aged.

Mike Squires
--

Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 317 233 9456 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes at siralan.org 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Norman Schwartz wrote:

> So my vintage classic *tube* ARC SP-3A-1 pre-amp having 8 (eight)
> ECC83/12AX7A and one Delco DTS-410 transistor should be correctly termed a
> "hybrid"? I understand your point but don't think (m)any people would agree.
> Perhaps the transistor is employed in such a way that it cannot contribute
> to the sound, but it's there nevertheless. If this should in fact be the
> case, the (and your) "classic" terminology" breaks down.

The DTS-410 is used as a power supply regulator. In fact (I don't have
an SP-3a schematic) I'd expect the base of the DTS-410 to be driven by
another, smaller transistor, as in the SP-6, which has several
transistor voltage regulators feeding the various stages of the preamp.
But all of the devices in the direct signal path are tubes.

Some hold to the belief that since all energy in the output derives from
the power supply, it's not a true tube unit if it has transistor voltage
regulators.

-GP

 

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Gene Poon <sheehans@ap.net> wrote:
> Norman Schwartz wrote:

>> So my vintage classic *tube* ARC SP-3A-1 pre-amp having 8 (eight)
>> ECC83/12AX7A and one Delco DTS-410 transistor should be correctly termed a
>> "hybrid"? I understand your point but don't think (m)any people would agree.
>> Perhaps the transistor is employed in such a way that it cannot contribute
>> to the sound, but it's there nevertheless. If this should in fact be the
>> case, the (and your) "classic" terminology" breaks down.

> The DTS-410 is used as a power supply regulator. In fact (I don't have
> an SP-3a schematic) I'd expect the base of the DTS-410 to be driven by
> another, smaller transistor, as in the SP-6, which has several
> transistor voltage regulators feeding the various stages of the preamp.

Nope, it was a simple emitter follower controlled by a string of noisy zeners
that wern't even bypassed to lower the noise. No Darlington, error amplifier
or anything like that.

I always thought it was amusing that they liked to advertise their
'sophisticated' voltage regulators and they would incrementally 'upgrade'
them to their latest 'discovery' in subsequent models, while all the time
the most sophisticated regulators were textbook classics long before Audio
Research even existed.

Does it even matter?

That's the high end doing it's thing, but professional comedians do it
better.

 

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"Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message news:<cbd4ia01lja@news1.newsguy.com>...
> "Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:UIgCc.73555$2i5.9859@attbi_s52...
> > "Norman Schwartz" <nmsz1@att.net> wrote in message
> news:<oy8Cc.162772$Ly.113587@attbi_s01>...
> > > "Buster Mudd" <mr_furious@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:xgPBc.73339$Hg2.22335@attbi_s04...
>
> > > >
> > > > "Tubed" gear is any component that has a tube in it.
> > > >
> > > > "Tube" gear is equipment that could have existed prior to the
> > > > invention of the transistor.
> > > >
> > >
> So my vintage classic *tube* ARC SP-3A-1 pre-amp having 8 (eight)
> ECC83/12AX7A and one Delco DTS-410 transistor should be correctly termed a
> "hybrid"? I understand your point but don't think (m)any people would agree.
> Perhaps the transistor is employed in such a way that it cannot contribute
> to the sound, but it's there nevertheless. If this should in fact be the
> case, the (and your) "classic" terminology" breaks down.

I personally would think it's fair to call your preamp a "tube"
preamp, especially if that lone transistor is not in the audio path. I
also think it's fair to call your preamp a "gnork" preamp, or a
"sturgelbitten" preamp, because those words convey only slightly less
about a component's circuitry than "tube" or "tubed" or "hybrid".

I cannot speak for those who coined the "tube" versus "tubed"
nomemclature, but even if They deemed your preamp was a not a "tube"
preamp but a "tubed" preamp A) who cares? & B) how can you argue that
they're incorrect? Since their definition has not yet reached
universal acceptance it should not be interpreted to contain the
baggage that one might presume to be disparaging. Your preamp has
tubes; therefore it must have been tubed at the factory, & presumably
it remains tubed to this day. (If not & it still produces audio then I
think you might have to seriously consider that you have a "hybrid"!)

The engineers who have adopted the "tube" versus "tubed" distinction
mostly use it to identify components that only have 1 or 2 tubes in
addition to several dozen solid state devices in the audio path. Their
feeling is that it is disingenuous to refer to these devices as "tube"
preamps (or "tube" compressors, or "tube" equalizers, etc), despite
what manufacturers & marketing people proclaim.