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Question on Yamaha receiver warranties

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Anonymous
August 7, 2004 8:29:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

I see some vendors offering Yamaha receivers on-line at lower-than-list
prices, with a warning that Yamaha will not honor the warranty (and
frequently offering instead to sell you a warranty from a third party).
My questions:

--Is this true (not honoring the warranty), and if so is this a common
practice among manufacturers?

--Does anyone have any first-hand experiences with collecting on a
third-party warranty (good or bad) that they would be willing to relate?

Thanks.
Anonymous
August 8, 2004 6:49:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stu Alden wrote:

> I see some vendors offering Yamaha receivers on-line at lower-than-list
> prices, with a warning that Yamaha will not honor the warranty (and
> frequently offering instead to sell you a warranty from a third party).
> My questions:
>
> --Is this true (not honoring the warranty), and if so is this a common
> practice among manufacturers?

Yes. Grey-market imports. They buy them at the factory overseas
and ship them themselves to the U.S. I've found they work exactly
the same, but - and this is a big BUT - no warranty at all.

>
Anonymous
August 9, 2004 7:12:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

> Stu Alden wrote:
>
> > I see some vendors offering Yamaha receivers on-line at lower-than-list
> > prices, with a warning that Yamaha will not honor the warranty (and
> > frequently offering instead to sell you a warranty from a third party).
> > My questions:--Is this true (not honoring the warranty), and if so is
this a common
> > practice among manufacturers?

"Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote>
> Yes. Grey-market imports. They buy them at the factory overseas
> and ship them themselves to the U.S. I've found they work exactly
> the same, but - and this is a big BUT - no warranty at all.
>
It also happens to products that are shipped in violation of the dealer
agreement between the maker and the dealer. For instance if your product is
a USA product that was sold by an authorized dealer to a middleman for sale
on the internet there will be no warranty because there is no proof of sale
from an authorized dealer. The same if the dealer uses an assumed name
online to avoid getting caught by the factory: he will give a receipt that
not in the name of an authorized dealer.

But why? The makers of higher quality equipment rely on the storefront
dealers to advertise, demonstrate, and explain their products. The more
consumers who buy online the fewer dealers will suport the line, either
because they grow weary of being the showroom for the internet, or because
they go out of business becsuse too many customers used them without
supporting them by buying from them. This is a major factor in the
disappearance of local AV stores.

My point is that these online bargains have a price that will be paid
somewhere down the line.

Wylie Williams
Related resources
Anonymous
August 10, 2004 7:29:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Wylie Williams" <wyliewill@charter.net> wrote in message
news:cf84890mct@news4.newsguy.com...
> > Stu Alden wrote:
> >
> > > I see some vendors offering Yamaha receivers on-line at
lower-than-list
> > > prices, with a warning that Yamaha will not honor the warranty (and
> > > frequently offering instead to sell you a warranty from a third
party).
> > > My questions:--Is this true (not honoring the warranty), and if so is
> this a common
> > > practice among manufacturers?
>
> "Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote>
> > Yes. Grey-market imports. They buy them at the factory overseas
> > and ship them themselves to the U.S. I've found they work exactly
> > the same, but - and this is a big BUT - no warranty at all.
> >
> It also happens to products that are shipped in violation of the dealer
> agreement between the maker and the dealer. For instance if your product
is
> a USA product that was sold by an authorized dealer to a middleman for
sale
> on the internet there will be no warranty because there is no proof of
sale
> from an authorized dealer. The same if the dealer uses an assumed name
> online to avoid getting caught by the factory: he will give a receipt that
> not in the name of an authorized dealer.
>
> But why? The makers of higher quality equipment rely on the storefront
> dealers to advertise, demonstrate, and explain their products. The more
> consumers who buy online the fewer dealers will suport the line, either
> because they grow weary of being the showroom for the internet, or because
> they go out of business becsuse too many customers used them without
> supporting them by buying from them. This is a major factor in the
> disappearance of local AV stores.
>
> My point is that these online bargains have a price that will be paid
> somewhere down the line.
>
> Wylie Williams
>

I'm going to be devil's advocate here and say that if all equipment were
sold with 30 day home trial and a 10-15% restocking fee and return shipping,
over the internet, the need for a dealer is almost eliminated. Most
dealers will not *lend* equipment for home audition (they will sell you the
stuff with a return provision, usually), so offer no advantage except their
own showrooms. With the complexity of multichannel setup and home theatre,
relatively few of them have the space / resources to do a good job of this.
And while their advice is important to many, it is not for some. And in any
case, it could probably be offered over the internet both pre-sale and even
post-sale (perhaps via a support contract such as value-added computer
software).

The distribution system that FedEx, UPS, and the USPS offer is second to
none, and combined with the Internet will eventually revolutionize the
marketing of all specialized products, of which unfortunately high-end audio
is one. In my opinion, the world will change despite the best intentions of
all involved...at this point it is a rear-guard operation.

Think on the following changes in retail merchandising and interactions with
the distribution environment for a moment:

(1) pre-1800 local general store, supporting very local population using
horses, distribution provided by stage (difficult)
(2) early 19th century - local general store most places, still local
population via horses, distribution by railroad (still difficult), except
(3) late 19th century - rise of catalog sales (supported by rise of Postal
Service) with product shipped from central locations by train (the freight
depot). Catalogs broadened customer base and product offerings, distribution
could be provided by centralized shipping. (easier, but long waits)
(4) late 19th / early 20th century (with rise of big cities) - centralized
department stores, supplied by rail and fed by customer base using trolleys,
rapid transit, busses and (later) cars. Wide variety of merchandise at
easily (relatively) reached location. Distribution also from central
location either via carry-home or wagon/truck within days. Both population
and distribution centralized (much easier)
(5) late 20th century - dispersed department and clusters of specialty
stores (malls) distribution by truck/interstate, somewhat dispersed
population able to get there by interstate, car (easier still). However,
proliferated stores work only for broadly purchased classes of goods.
Specialty stores easily "overbuilt".
(6) start of new millennium - dispersed specialty stores and dispersed yet
rapid distribution within countries via Shipping Companies - both dispersed
customers and disbursed distribution points...no need for centralized
warehouses, retail stores (certainly no department stores which have
completely lost their reason for being). (easiest yet).

If you follow this history, you will see that specialty items went from
special order by general store, to catalog sales, to department store
availability (remember when Macy's and E.J. Korvette carried components), to
mall availability (and briefly in the sixties/seventies..retail audio
stores), to catalogs again (as dispersed retail proved unable to support a
shrinking specialty user base..in other words too many distribution
points...and the USPS subsidized 3rd class mail), to????...internet
availability.

The reason for the change has to do with the nature of the transportation
and communication systems providing both distribution and consumer access.
This is a natural evolution that will eventually win out.
Again IMO.

Sorry, I guess I'm showing my roots as an economist and marketer.
Anonymous
August 10, 2004 7:36:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

In article <cf84890mct@news4.newsguy.com>, wyliewill@charter.net says...
> > Stu Alden wrote:
> >
> > > I see some vendors offering Yamaha receivers on-line at lower-than-list
> > > prices, with a warning that Yamaha will not honor the warranty (and
> > > frequently offering instead to sell you a warranty from a third party).
> > > My questions:--Is this true (not honoring the warranty), and if so is
> this a common
> > > practice among manufacturers?
>
> "Joseph Oberlander" <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote>
> > Yes. Grey-market imports. They buy them at the factory overseas
> > and ship them themselves to the U.S. I've found they work exactly
> > the same, but - and this is a big BUT - no warranty at all.
> >
> It also happens to products that are shipped in violation of the dealer
> agreement between the maker and the dealer. For instance if your product is
> a USA product that was sold by an authorized dealer to a middleman for sale
> on the internet there will be no warranty because there is no proof of sale
> from an authorized dealer. The same if the dealer uses an assumed name
> online to avoid getting caught by the factory: he will give a receipt that
> not in the name of an authorized dealer.
>
> But why? The makers of higher quality equipment rely on the storefront
> dealers to advertise, demonstrate, and explain their products. The more
> consumers who buy online the fewer dealers will suport the line, either
> because they grow weary of being the showroom for the internet, or because
> they go out of business becsuse too many customers used them without
> supporting them by buying from them. This is a major factor in the
> disappearance of local AV stores.
>
> My point is that these online bargains have a price that will be paid
> somewhere down the line.
>
> Wylie Williams
>
>

Thank you - I think you make a good point. I would only add that
frequently I've found storefront dealers' explanation of products to be
*dramatically* less valuable than simply carefully reading the manual
myself (which many manufacturers now provide on-line). (In other words,
when you've read the manual carefully, and the salesperson hasn't, your
detailed questions don't receive a particularly thoughtful response.)

Live demonstrations, however, and post-sale support, are certainly worth
something.
September 8, 2004 4:00:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 9 Aug 2004 15:12:09 GMT, "Wylie Williams" <wyliewill@charter.net>
wrote:

>The more
>consumers who buy online the fewer dealers will suport the line, either
>because they grow weary of being the showroom for the internet, or because
>they go out of business becsuse too many customers used them without
>supporting them by buying from them.


I have often wondered over the past 10 years or so - since
mail order was a precursor to Internet-based retail - whether
we would not eventually end up with the concept of a tryout
store, where people would be charged to browse, try out,
and/or play with toys, primarily consumer electronics. But
the possibilities for that have receded, IMO, with the rise of
mass marketers such as CompUSA who cover both ends
with stores and a web site. They don't carry much that some-
one into "high end" audio would be interested in, nor do they
have good facilities for listening, but "high end" is a tiny slice
of the market anyway. And my local CompUSA does carry
something interesting every once in a while. Yesterday I
noticed that they had a HSU in stock. There we have a bit of
irony, since the cost-effective route in this case is to listen
to it at the mass marketer and then order it on line from HSU
for $100 less.

I would not want to be a small retailer.
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 3:35:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

GregP <gregpusenet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<chli2q0r1j@news4.newsguy.com>...

> And my local CompUSA does carry
> something interesting every once in a while. Yesterday I
> noticed that they had a HSU in stock. There we have a bit of
> irony, since the cost-effective route in this case is to listen
> to it at the mass marketer and then order it on line from HSU
> for $100 less.
>
Except that listening to a subwoofer crammed into a lower shelf in a
store the size of a warehouse is about as pointless an audition as you
can do.

bob
September 15, 2004 3:25:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 8 Sep 2004 23:35:02 GMT, nabob33@hotmail.com (Bob Marcus) wrote:

>GregP <gregpusenet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<chli2q0r1j@news4.newsguy.com>...
>
>> And my local CompUSA does carry
>> something interesting every once in a while. Yesterday I
>> noticed that they had a HSU in stock. There we have a bit of
>> irony, since the cost-effective route in this case is to listen
>> to it at the mass marketer and then order it on line from HSU
>> for $100 less.
>>
>Except that listening to a subwoofer crammed into a lower shelf in a
>store the size of a warehouse is about as pointless an audition as you
>can do.
>
>bob

That's what I meant by the following (politer :-) sentence that
you clipped: ' They don't carry much that some one into "high
end" audio would be interested in, nor do they have good facilities
for listening, but "high end" is a tiny slice of the market anyway.'
Anonymous
September 15, 2004 3:36:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Bob Marcus" <nabob33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cho4v602v22@news2.newsguy.com...
> GregP <gregpusenet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:<chli2q0r1j@news4.newsguy.com>...
>
> > And my local CompUSA does carry
> > something interesting every once in a while. Yesterday I
> > noticed that they had a HSU in stock. There we have a bit of
> > irony, since the cost-effective route in this case is to listen
> > to it at the mass marketer and then order it on line from HSU
> > for $100 less.
> >
> Except that listening to a subwoofer crammed into a lower shelf in a
> store the size of a warehouse is about as pointless an audition as you
> can do.
>
> bob

The CompUSA shopper who recognizes Hsu will not need a demo, at least
the demo that CompUSA can provide. The buyer who doesn't recognize Hsu will
buy the largest box in his price range so long as it maks a satisfactory
THUMP when he demos it.

My point is that all retail will not go away because of the internet,
just small specialty retail that try to promote audiophile brands by showing
a selection of quality products in a good listening environment.
Audiophiles increasingly use them for their internet listening room, buy the
product they have decided on at the lowest price online, and wonder what
went wrong when they drive past the store the next time and see a FOR RENT
sign in the window.

The present and future business climate makes me glad that I was able to
reach retirement age, close my storefront, and become a home based business
that is more for love than money. As I see it, except for a few stores in
the largest metropolitan markets, the future of audiophile component sales
probably belongs to online stores that offer 30 day money back evaluations.

Wylie Williams
The Speaker and Stereo Store
Saint Louis MO
!