Another value for money DAC

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Hi,

Besides Benchmark DAC there is one more product that is probably better . At
$995 with a long list of clients such as found here
http://mytekdigital.com/client_list.htm and the shootout results (Benchmark
and Apogee V Mytek) http://mytekdigital.com/listening_test.htm and I wonder
why audiophile magazine don't do the shootout for the benefit of consumers.

Any users out there pls share your experience.

Rgds.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
news:cfm0b70157h@news1.newsguy.com:

> On 14 Aug 2004 14:36:50 GMT, "Chelvam" <chelvam@myjaring.net> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Besides Benchmark DAC there is one more product that is probably
>>better . At $995 with a long list of clients such as found here
>>http://mytekdigital.com/client_list.htm and the shootout results
>>(Benchmark and Apogee V Mytek)
>>http://mytekdigital.com/listening_test.htm and I wonder why audiophile
>>magazine don't do the shootout for the benefit of consumers.
>>
>>Any users out there pls share your experience.
>
> I am always suspicious of such aggressive advertising. They offer
> 'shootout' comparisons, which we are expected to believe are 'apples
> for apples' comparisons, yet their site seems to offer no technical
> specifications whatever. Why would you suppose that their product is
> 'probably better'?

I looked at the Mytek website - they had pictures of the innards of their
DAC. I also looked at the Benchmark website - they had drawings. In
neither case did I see anything that should have cost more than $50 to
assemble out on the Pacific rim. Given that they're both demanding about a
kilobuck for their products, where's the beef?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 8/14/04 9:30 PM, in article cfmeap018p2@news4.newsguy.com, "Jim"
<jdstrickler@comcast.net> wrote:

> Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:cfm0b70157h@news1.newsguy.com:
>
>> On 14 Aug 2004 14:36:50 GMT, "Chelvam" <chelvam@myjaring.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Besides Benchmark DAC there is one more product that is probably
>>> better . At $995 with a long list of clients such as found here
>>> http://mytekdigital.com/client_list.htm and the shootout results
>>> (Benchmark and Apogee V Mytek)
>>> http://mytekdigital.com/listening_test.htm and I wonder why audiophile
>>> magazine don't do the shootout for the benefit of consumers.
>>>
>>> Any users out there pls share your experience.
>>
>> I am always suspicious of such aggressive advertising. They offer
>> 'shootout' comparisons, which we are expected to believe are 'apples
>> for apples' comparisons, yet their site seems to offer no technical
>> specifications whatever. Why would you suppose that their product is
>> 'probably better'?
>
> I looked at the Mytek website - they had pictures of the innards of their
> DAC. I also looked at the Benchmark website - they had drawings. In
> neither case did I see anything that should have cost more than $50 to
> assemble out on the Pacific rim. Given that they're both demanding about a
> kilobuck for their products, where's the beef?

Are you *sure* of that. Assuming something on the order of a SOTA chip set
- it could easily run $200-300 including the case in bill of material cost -
though it is really hard to tell from the websites. Also any software
written and used in the unit has to be factored in the development cost. In
a mass market piece of equipment it almost does not matter how much you
spend since the amount spend is amortized so thoroughly - in lower volumes
it does so very much as it would add to the price significantly for the
first couple of years.

Given that in medium to low volume electronics, a 3x markup is about right -
you are pushing a kilobuck right there without amortizing the R&D...

The vast majority of the buyers of this are professionals, not hobbyists,
and raw measurable performance.

You might be right - though I won't assume it just yet.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cfm0b70157h@news1.newsguy.com...
> On 14 Aug 2004 14:36:50 GMT, "Chelvam" <chelvam@myjaring.net> wrote:

>
> I am always suspicious of such aggressive advertising. They offer
> 'shootout' comparisons, which we are expected to believe are 'apples
> for apples' comparisons, yet their site seems to offer no technical
> specifications whatever. Why would you suppose that their product is
> 'probably better'?
> --
I don't know that's why I used 'probably". When I see EMI, Westlake, Rolling
Stones and Sony among others using mytek products, maybe they are good if
not better than others. And which part do you call agressive advertising.
Me, posting it on RAHE? Yes, I am guilty for some advertisement to introduce
alternative High End products for the benefit of RAHE readers. But I thought
that's the purpose of RAHE.

And I guess you did not get to page 26 for the specification. Not as
impressive as benchmark, though. How good is the product going to be? I
don't know and I will tell after listening (and not under the DBT because
under it there isn't going to be any diff btw Benchmark, MSB or Mytek,
right?). For now there are only a few who are willing to publish the
"shootout" comparison and standby it. And it would be premature to judge a
company by their aggressive adverstisement or lack of it or publication of
comparison chart.

But I (and others like myself) would be influenced by some equipment used by
established personalities in High End industry. Such as what speakers the
Chief Engineer of Wadia or Mark Levinson uses. However, I am not going to
be influenced to buy Linn just because Prince Charles allegedly uses them
but I would "probably consider" if Mr Atkinson does.

rgds

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in
news:cfntqa030u6@news4.newsguy.com:

>>
>>I looked at the Mytek website - they had pictures of the innards of
>>their DAC. I also looked at the Benchmark website - they had
>>drawings. In neither case did I see anything that should have cost
>>more than $50 to assemble out on the Pacific rim. Given that they're
>>both demanding about a kilobuck for their products, where's the beef?
>
> Firstly, I fear that you may be unfamiliar with the cost of some of
> the components used in these devices. Secondly, and more importantly,
> R&D costs serious money, all the more so for specialist devices such
> as these, where sales will be a few hundred at most, not the tens of
> thousands that would be expected for a DVD player. It's easy to sell
> cheaply if you have massive volume - and you've ripped off someone
> else's design work, as is the chy knees speciality.
>
> It's likely that these two DACs have very similar - and excellent -
> performance, but I remain more convinced by the technical data
> available on the Benchmark site. This compares with no technical data
> on the Mytek site, just lots of 'shootouts' which they have set up -
> never a totally reliable source!

I took another look at the Mytek website. Quoting from the text on the
photo, "Highest quality AKM DAC operates at 192 kHz ...". An article in
Stereophile ("New DAC Chips from AKM Semiconductor Push Audio Performance
Envelope", October '99) states the following,

"The 44-pin AK4356's 112dB dynamic range isn't as high as the 4394's, but
is still very good. The device's six analog output stages adhere to the
same architecture as the 4394's, [...yada, yada, yada...] make the AK4356
the "one-chip solution for multichannel audio. Manufacturers can obtain the
AK4356 for $4.15 each in lots of 10,000."

and that was 1999! Granted, their volumes are much less than 10K, and I
think that the chip used in the device is the 4394, not the 4356, but I
seriously doubt that the component cost is anywhere near B&D's $200-$300
"SOTA" estimate since the design isn't SOTA and the engineering cost has
long since been amortized. I didn't see any other components that looked
particularly expensive, the printed wiring board is 2-sided using surface
mounted components, and the closest thing to a device containing software
is a Altera PLD. I also noticed that the analog output traces run a little
too close to the power supply's voltage regulators for my taste, even
allowing for the fact that they're differential.

So, what's my point? Is it DAC envy? I don't own a DAC and see no need to
try to improve on my CD player's analog output. Is it margin envy? I
spent 10 years in the minicomputer business during its heyday, and the
margins then make this seem like an act of charity.

-- JS