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Amplifier Sound - What Are The Influences?

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Anonymous
September 6, 2004 6:23:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Here again, I reproduce excerpts from some sites for some discussion. I hope
some would spot the falsity found therein, if any, and would offer counter
arguments with simple non EE language .

The author of this article is Rod Elliot. Lenard (The way we hear the
natural world) did make some reference to him in his text.

Here are the excerpts:-

"...When people talk about the sound of an amplifier, there are many
different terms used. For a typical (high quality) amplifier, the sound may
be described as "smeared", or having "air" or "authoritative" bass. These
terms - although describing a listener's experience - have no direct meaning
in electrical terms."

"...Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the same,
and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is "proven"......"

And also read about his opinion on cables.

Link http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

Regards.
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 8:44:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 6 Sep 2004 14:23:50 GMT, "Chelvam" <chelvam@myjaring.net> wrote:

>Here again, I reproduce excerpts from some sites for some discussion. I hope
>some would spot the falsity found therein, if any, and would offer counter
>arguments with simple non EE language .

I find little to fault in any of the articles on his eminently
sensible (and very comprehensive) website. It is certainly the case
that amplfiers vary in their recovery from clipping, and this bears
examination if you are considering a major purchase. IME, it is
*vastly* easier to check this out on a 'scope, than by ear!


>The author of this article is Rod Elliot. Lenard (The way we hear the
>natural world) did make some reference to him in his text.
>
>Here are the excerpts:-
>
>"...When people talk about the sound of an amplifier, there are many
>different terms used. For a typical (high quality) amplifier, the sound may
>be described as "smeared", or having "air" or "authoritative" bass. These
>terms - although describing a listener's experience - have no direct meaning
>in electrical terms."
>
>"...Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the same,
>and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is "proven"......"
>
>And also read about his opinion on cables.
>
>Link http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

He seems like a very sensible chap, and I'm betting that the
dishonest correspondent he complains about in his cable preambles is
Jon Risch, who *claims* to hear everything from dielectric types to
the degree of purity of silver conductors, but has *never* provided
any evidence to back his claims.............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
September 8, 2004 3:57:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Chelvam wrote:
>
> "...Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the
> same, and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is
> "proven"......"
>
> And also read about his opinion on cables.
>
> Link http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm
>
> Regards.

Even if his electronic projects are a little simplistic and serve only a low
quality, Elliot tried to give a (worded) overview on amplifier
characterisation. What I have read so far seems technically correct and is a
suitable introduction for the average user. Despite the length I didn't find
any interesting new facts or novel electronic circuitry in his treatise tho.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy
Related resources
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 7:15:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Chelvam wrote:
>
> Here again, I reproduce excerpts from some sites for some discussion. I hope
> some would spot the falsity found therein, if any, and would offer counter
> arguments with simple non EE language .
>

A nice, well thought out summary. The only additional parameters that
I would like to see on his list:

- Phase Margin, not usually measured/reported, but a good indicator as
to whether or not an amplifier is unconditionally stable,
conditionally stable, or (perish forbid) unstable. Not sure based on
my quick look if his proposed SIM detector would always note a
stability problem when present.

- Input impedance, while it does not impact amplifier behavior per se,
it is useful to know to ensure that upstream components are compatible.

Best regards,

Terry
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 3:32:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

With so many variables why are we still trying so hard to mix and match. No
wonder Naim recommends a complete ALL Naim system to enjoy their sound.

BTW, can anyone shed some light to my question in
Re: The way we hear the natural world posted on 8 September.

Thank you.



"Zagar" <openskyseven@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:chltgl01pke@news4.newsguy.com...

snip..snip..

>
> - Input impedance, while it does not impact amplifier behavior per se,
> it is useful to know to ensure that upstream components are compatible.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Terry
Anonymous
September 10, 2004 3:38:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 8 Sep 2004 23:32:33 GMT, "Chelvam" <chelvam@myjaring.net> wrote:

>With so many variables why are we still trying so hard to mix and match. No
>wonder Naim recommends a complete ALL Naim system to enjoy their sound.

There are not that many variables in the real world. Very few sources
have an output impedance higher than 1kohm, very few power amps have
an input impedance of less than 30kohm, and any decent SS amplifier
will drive any normal speaker. Only in the realms of so-called 'high
end' exotica (which often just means *badly* designed!), do you have
to worry about 'matching'. Naturally, Naim would like you to buy an
all-Naim system, and their sales people will use all the 'synergy'
argiments they can to persuade you that this is a good idea. In fact
however, it's not a good idea, as Naim electronics are extremely
average in capability, but high in price. Indeed, their speakers
aren't all that wonderful either, in today's market!

In a more general sense, there is no single company which can
justifiably claim to make world-class components in source, amplifier
*and* speakers, with the possible exception of Meridian. Krell might
possibly claim that, but their total system prices are just crazy!
Most experienced audiophiles would suggest that you work backwards by
finding a great pair of speakers, buying an amp which will drive them,
and then adding whatever source component takes your fancy.

The old source-first, 'garbage in, garbage out' Linn philosophy had
some relevance when vinyl was king, but is simply bad advice today.


>BTW, can anyone shed some light to my question in
>Re: The way we hear the natural world posted on 8 September.

Had you repeated the question, you might have got an answer........

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
September 10, 2004 7:43:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


>
> In a more general sense, there is no single company which can
> justifiably claim to make world-class components in source, amplifier
> *and* speakers, with the possible exception of Meridian.

You can add Tag McLaren Audio to that list. I haven't heard their
speakers, but they used to make speakers as well.
Anonymous
September 11, 2004 12:19:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10 Sep 2004 03:43:20 GMT, Tat Chan <le_king_num_7@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>>
>> In a more general sense, there is no single company which can
>> justifiably claim to make world-class components in source, amplifier
>> *and* speakers, with the possible exception of Meridian.
>
>You can add Tag McLaren Audio to that list. I haven't heard their
>speakers, but they used to make speakers as well.

Actually, you can't - they're out of business, and I don't think they
ever actually sold any of the F1 speakers.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
September 11, 2004 6:48:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> On 10 Sep 2004 03:43:20 GMT, Tat Chan <le_king_num_7@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>>
>>>In a more general sense, there is no single company which can
>>>justifiably claim to make world-class components in source, amplifier
>>>*and* speakers, with the possible exception of Meridian.
>>
>>You can add Tag McLaren Audio to that list. I haven't heard their
>>speakers, but they used to make speakers as well.
>
>
> Actually, you can't - they're out of business, and I don't think they
> ever actually sold any of the F1 speakers.


They got bought over by IAG, who will be discarding the TMA brand name sometime
next year (or until they run out of stock?).

There is a pair of Calliope speakers in the tradein section of a local hi-fi
store so someone must have bought them (not sure if they are "world class"
though), and the same store has slashed 40% off the price of the F1 speakers.
!