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Serial ATA and IDE ????

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  • Hard Drives
  • SATA
  • HD
  • Storage
Last response: in Storage
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December 7, 2003 3:46:18 AM

Someone could explain me what is the difference between having a SATA HD and an IDE HD??
thanks

Vive le métal!!!

More about : serial ata ide

December 7, 2003 6:08:52 AM

SATA is supposed to be faster, but I don't know whether users today use the extra headroom. Plus, it has a smaller cable that helps for air flow. There also may be something about power, but I don't know...
December 7, 2003 6:43:10 AM

You get a smaller cable. Only 1 drive per cable. SATA advocates call this an "advantage" because there are no more master/slave jumpers. That's like saying a Cavalier is better than a Corvette because you only have to change half as many spark plugs...

Anyway, there isn't a performance difference, because today's drives aren't fast enough to use more than the UDMA100 speed standard allows.

Of course some drives only come in SATA, such as the WD Raptors.

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December 8, 2003 5:22:30 PM

SATA was prompted because the numerous conductors within the ATA interface would create too much interference with each other as the interface speeds increased. (Additionally, there were software issues that were more pronounced because of increased interface speeds as well.)

The SATA standard was devised to be software compatible with the current ATA standard so that it could be more easily implemented in software. Additionally, the goal of SATA was to add a bunch of extra head-room for performance increases and to add features that people have become accustomed too at the lower end of the scale.

SATA does get rid of the whole cable mess! Because the cables are smaller it allows for better airflow. Also things don't look quite a cluttered.

While it is true that most systems can't take advantage of the potential throughput increases in SATA, there are still significant advantages. (Either because of hard drive architecture/cabability, or motherboard.)

SATA was designed to be a point-to-point interface.

What this means is that each drive receives it's own channel to the drive controller. (The difference is much more than a simple elimination of the Master/slave jumpers.) This means that most controllers, maybe even all, have the ability to send/receive data to a SATA drive will it can send/receive data to a different SATA drive.

This reduces wasted time spent for the hard drive channel to become available before another drive can access the channel.

My experience has shown this in an of itself to be a major benifit.

What I am hoping for, but so far they are not available, is SATA based CD-ROM/DVD-ROM's so I can see if that whole "DELAY" thing when a new media is inserted is gone! Granted this may actually be something in Windows that causes this, but EVERY desktop system I've seen has a noticeable slowdown in hard drive performance when a media is inserted and recognized by a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive. I am waiting for those drives to become available to that I can see if that is the case.

I have purchased NUMEROUS Western Digital 36gb Raptor Drives, am waiting for NUMEROUS Western Digital 74gb Raptor Drives, and other miscellaneous SATA Drives.

I have been happy with all.

If you are going into a Frame/Carrier situation for removeable drives the SATA drives are quite well thought out for this. The specification for the interface and power connectors have taken this into account, and the drive just fits into the carrier with the connectors butting up against their mates! Not more cables inside of the frame at all! (Yes, there are various SCSI stuff that do this too, but it is nice to see it at the lower end as well.)

In the future SATA is supposed to ad more features, many of which are software controlled, as well as higher transfer rates.
December 9, 2003 2:41:39 AM

Quote:
SATA does get rid of the whole cable mess

LIES! If you have 2x as many cables, you have 2x the mess. SATA creates cable mess.

Quote:
What I am hoping for, but so far they are not available, is SATA based CD-ROM/DVD-ROM's so I can see if that whole "DELAY" thing when a new media is inserted is gone!

WOW, there goes the rest of your credibility. These types of drives lag because it takes time to spin up the disk, plus seek the disk. All of that is electro-mechanical, not electronic.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
December 9, 2003 3:24:39 PM

Actually Crashman, think about it?

A SATA cable is about 1/6 the width of a standard IDE cable. Far less visually intrusive.

In most systems I doubt we are NOT talking about adding twice as many cables so "LIES! If you have 2x as many cables, you have 2x the mess" is fairly pointless to claim.

Even if that were the case though, taking two standard IDE cables and replacing them with four SATA cables take up much less room, improves routing option, and I will still contend is less messy.

The ability to bend, manipulate, and tie together the smaller SATA cables is "MUCH BETTER" than using the standard IDE cables. Since the SATA cables are not nearly are wide they can be pretty much bent as needed, where-as the standard IDE cables are flat and have more constraints when bending.

Hence again, generally less of a mess.

Also standard IDE cables are limited by specification to 18". Currently, nearly "ALL" SATA cables that are shipping with cards and motherboards are also only 18", but by specification they can be up to 39" long. (Or whatever 1 meter works out to be!)

This also adds to the ability to route cabling a less obtrusive and messy way.


As far are your replay to my comment of:
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What I am hoping for, but so far they are not available, is SATA based CD-ROM/DVD-ROM's so I can see if that whole "DELAY" thing when a new media is inserted is gone!
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To which you replied:
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WOW, there goes the rest of your credibility. These types of drives lag because it takes time to spin up the disk, plus seek the disk. All of that is electro-mechanical, not electronic.
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Just to help out a bit, often when it is necessary to explain a complex thought multiple sentences need to be used! During the explanation of a complex thought taking sentences out of context often will alter the thought that was intended.


you appearently did not feel, or understand, the following sentence was important to the thought in question:
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Granted this may actually be something in Windows that causes this, but EVERY desktop system I've seen has a noticeable slowdown in hard drive performance when a media is inserted and recognized by a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive.
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Just in case it still doesn't make sense I point out the wording:
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slowdown in hard drive performance
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I was NOT talking, specifically, about the time necessary for the CD-ROM/DVD-ROM to recognize the media and make it available! I am fully aware of why that takes time.

I was ONLY refering to the affect that a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM has on overal hard drive performance when a media is recognized.

In a perfect world during the time a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM is recognizing new media the affect on hard drive peformance should ONLY be limited to processor overhead which should be negligable and the amount of actual bandwidth for data transfer used by the CD-ROM/DVD-ROM during the recognition process.

In actuality, and so far I have seen NO standard IDE controllers that deviate from this, the affect of a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive recognizing media is much greater than any bandwith necessary for the process.

I had already allowed in my post that this may be a Windows anomaly, but I am hoping that this is caused by the IDE architecture and that SATA will resolve this.

Additionally, there is a distinct difference between "lag" and "slowdown" so defining why there is a "lag" when CD-ROM/DVD-ROM media is recognized is not really germane since I was not trying to discuss why it takes time for a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM to recognize media.
December 9, 2003 6:32:42 PM

Wow, you really have no clue what you are talking about...

Ever heard of ROUND CABLES?!?!?! They're pretty nice and becoming a standard.

Quote:
Even if that were the case though, taking two standard IDE cables and replacing them with four SATA cables take up much less room, improves routing option, and I will still contend is less messy.

I disagree; the less wires: the better.

[quoteThe ability to bend, manipulate, and tie together the smaller SATA cables is "MUCH BETTER" than using the standard IDE cables. Since the SATA cables are not nearly are wide they can be pretty much bent as needed, where-as the standard IDE cables are flat and have more constraints when bending.

Hence again, generally less of a mess.[/quote]

My definition of mess must be different than yours. If I have 2 IDE ribbon (not even round) cables in my case, they will be far less intrusive and far less messy than 2 SATA and 1 IDE (optical devices).

Quote:
The ability to bend, manipulate, and tie together the smaller SATA cables is "MUCH BETTER" than using the standard IDE cables. Since the SATA cables are not nearly are wide they can be pretty much bent as needed, where-as the standard IDE cables are flat and have more constraints when bending.

Odd, I guess my 24" IDE cables don't exist and therefore I have no connection to my HDDs...wait, then how am I listening to music off of my HDDs and running Windows right now?? My 24" cables are plenty long, so I still don't see what 1 metre is for (other than externally connected drives).

Quote:
This also adds to the ability to route cabling a less obtrusive and messy way.

HOW!?!?! Pray tell. If you mean around the edges of the case...I guess. But wouldn't a cable going straight from the mobo to the drive be less obtrusive, you know that rule: shortest distance between two points in space is a straight line. Shorter distance=less wire. Less wire=less clutter.

Quote:
Granted this may actually be something in Windows that causes this, but EVERY desktop system I've seen has a noticeable slowdown in hard drive performance when a media is inserted and recognized by a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive.

I've never had this problem, not while accessing, not while playing, not while burning, not while installing, not while idling...NEVER!

Quote:
I was NOT talking, specifically, about the time necessary for the CD-ROM/DVD-ROM to recognize the media and make it available!

Certainly seemed like you were.

Quote:
I am fully aware of why that takes time.

Certainly seemed like you weren't.

Quote:
In actuality, and so far I have seen NO standard IDE controllers that deviate from this, the affect of a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive recognizing media is much greater than any bandwith necessary for the process.

Maybe putting the drive on a different channel than the optical device will help. I've never seen or heard of this problem before. I've seen CPU usage spikes when optical drives are being accessed, but never HDD slowdowns...


Oh yeah saved this one for last:
Quote:
In most systems I doubt we are NOT talking about adding twice as many cables

First of all, that's just plain bad English...or at least unclear English. I think you meant to say (or at least this might help your point): I doubt we are talking about adding twice as many cables in most systems. Which is easy to refute. It seems that the only people who care about cooling and organization within the case seem to be 'computer people,' who typically have multiple drives!! So if your argument mostly doesn't affect those with one drive, why bring it up??? Also, you'd be surprised how many non-'computer people' have multiple drives, further denying you this invalid point!

I think I'm going to throw up.
December 9, 2003 7:42:58 PM

Understood. But I look forward to a spaghetti work of small cables now, instead of a couple large intrusive cables.

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December 9, 2003 8:22:15 PM

Actually, I was "VERY" careful about "standard IDE cables", and "by specification".

"Standard IDE cables" are flat ribbon cables.

Every specification I've read for IDE is 18" lengths for the interface cable. (Just as the specification for 10 Base-T level 5 copper is 100 meters, things can be pushed.)

No comments, or provisions were made in regards to "non-standard" or "non-specification" options or modifications. My discussion was "ONLY" comparing the "IDE Standard" to the "SATA Standard".


In reply to:
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In most systems I doubt we are NOT talking about adding twice as many cables
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Yes, that was indeed "bad english". Sorry to have "given you" that one.
December 9, 2003 9:19:07 PM

No matter what you were discussing, you have nothing to stand on (unless you keep constricting your argument to VERY particular situations, which is stupid).

I think I'm going to throw up.
!