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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 16, 2005 1:33:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.ultima-online,rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

I haven't played UO seriously since back in the days when each shard had
only ONE side (no trammel or felluca). And I haven't played at all until
right about the time they put out the (Second?) Lands, that first major
extension pack.

I'm currently a WoW player (first MMORPG to grab my attention since UO), but
I'm starting to regain an interest in UO itself again, even though I
understand it's been nerfed to death under the management of EA (including
the ability to PURCHASE a level/geared up character!).

So, from the standpoint of someone who's been away for a good long while,
how is UO nowadays? And what do I need to buy to get back in? (just that
Samurai pack, or do I have to purchase something else? Not as if I can find
it in any stores anymore...).

Also, I'm curious about the free shards. THEY sound more like the Ye Wilde
Olde West I loved at the game's start.

More about : questions veteran

Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 16, 2005 2:54:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

On Mon, 16 May 2005 09:33:08 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
wrote:

>I haven't played UO seriously since back in the days when each shard had
>only ONE side (no trammel or felluca). And I haven't played at all until
>right about the time they put out the (Second?) Lands, that first major
>extension pack.

I've played since the beta. Damn, I could have bought a whole car with
all that money. ;) 

>I'm currently a WoW player (first MMORPG to grab my attention since UO), but
>I'm starting to regain an interest in UO itself again, even though I
>understand it's been nerfed to death under the management of EA (including
>the ability to PURCHASE a level/geared up character!).

Nerfed? I don't think so, but then I've never been into PvP so perhaps it
is from that aspect. Changed certainly - the BODs and Diabloesque loot
have diminished the point of player craftsmen greatly. At least there
isn't (yet) Godly Plate of the Whale.

But most things have improved greatly and with many of the immature
children off playing other games the remaining players are a much nicer
lot. Still not very easy to find a house spot on Atlantic.

>So, from the standpoint of someone who's been away for a good long while,
>how is UO nowadays? And what do I need to buy to get back in? (just that
>Samurai pack, or do I have to purchase something else? Not as if I can find
>it in any stores anymore...).

You only need UO: Samurai Empire edition. I saw some in my local EB Games
aka Gamespot last weekend.

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
http://home.comcast.net/~safehex/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 16, 2005 4:17:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:m6gh811vmpdi4mtef44ft03m2n03kguufd@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 16 May 2005 09:33:08 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I haven't played UO seriously since back in the days when each shard had
> >only ONE side (no trammel or felluca). And I haven't played at all until
> >right about the time they put out the (Second?) Lands, that first major
> >extension pack.
>
> I've played since the beta. Damn, I could have bought a whole car with
> all that money. ;) 
>
> >I'm currently a WoW player (first MMORPG to grab my attention since UO),
but
> >I'm starting to regain an interest in UO itself again, even though I
> >understand it's been nerfed to death under the management of EA
(including
> >the ability to PURCHASE a level/geared up character!).
>
> Nerfed? I don't think so, but then I've never been into PvP so perhaps it
> is from that aspect. Changed certainly - the BODs and Diabloesque loot
> have diminished the point of player craftsmen greatly. At least there
> isn't (yet) Godly Plate of the Whale.

I suppose it's all a ballance issue. The biggest thing (well, one of em
anyway) I missed in UO was the ability to really, truly, roleplay an evil
bastard, rather than pantomime "acts of evil" as emotes. In other games,
all you can do is run around in pvp areas racking up a bodycount - not the
same. In WoW it seems you're limited to ninja looting (which, regrettably,
is more an attack against players than characters) and participating in
impersonal raids (where you can't even talk to the victims). Once upon a
time, I reveled in the fact that many players feared my character - yet I
didn't have to run around killing everyone in sight. All it took was a band
of fearsomly dressed clones, without remorse, who followed strict but cruel
guidelines and who made it their goal to instill fear and loathing, rather
than rack up loot and bodycount (we never even killed that high a number).

It was a different game back then though... you didn't have the "quake"
style pk's who were in it for the body count - the guys roaming the roads
and wilderness were generally in-character and were attacking you because
it's what they did for a living, rather than trying to have fun at your
expense. Many people didn't like being attacked, but the mindset was that
as long as there was a ballance, roaming pk's (who followed SOME code of
conduct) made the game interesting. That was before everyone's main concern
was loot loot loot.

> But most things have improved greatly and with many of the immature
> children off playing other games the remaining players are a much nicer
> lot. Still not very easy to find a house spot on Atlantic.

Define "nice". I'm hoping for a place where I can find a fairly hard core
group of players... not power-gamers, and not a rampant kill-or-be-killed
bodycount atmosphere, but a place where people play it as a hard world where
every adventure is a gamble, and where the most dangerous predators (and
prey) aren't guided by a mindless AI. While I'm a generally helpful person,
any game where everyone is expected to be kind and generous as a rule
honestly isn't much of an RP environment (since the AI enemies provide
nothing but a mindless source of loot that can be safely harvested through
calculated caution).

For example... a while back in UO, before the tram/fell split, mining was a
dangerous proposition. No place was completely safe, but when you were
working the more populous areas it was a given that any attackers would have
a group of angry players on them (and that any miner could often escape to
safety if attacked). However, the mining was harder to come by due to that
population. If you had the guts, and worked on self-defense, you could work
the more remote areas. Chances are, you'd be left alone... but the danger
was that if anyone DID come by, you were all alone. It provided for many
hours of me screaming at a monitor after my load was hijacked, but it also
made mining more fun than mindlessly hacking at a rock wall.

Conversely, when I'd take the other end of the situation (with one of my
nastier characters), instead of running up and saying "Gimme Ur l00t or
d13!", I'd hang around the area, stalking them, hoping they'd get nervous.
Slowly getting closer. Closer. Usually at some point, they'd either move
away or confront me. Depending on the mood I was in, I'd either just
terrorize them a bit, or make it clear that their only means of surviving
was to give me all they had. It was cruel, but so was my character
(becomming a Dread Lord was no easy task at that time, and even harder to
maintain). The thing was, I rarely actually killed them - there was no
great need. I just wanted to be their bogeyman for a while. The only real
reason I'd have to kill them would be to add another head to my collection
(which I kept on display - you have NO idea how hard it is to get GM's to
lock down a head collection...).

A good bit of what ruined the game for me was when it seemed most of the
players had quit roleplaying. They were all either interested in constant
harvesting, or constantly racking up as many kills as they could. The pk's
didn't even keep trophy rooms full of heads anymore. I enjoyed both sides
of the spectrum - being a cautious tradesman who had to watch his back or
bring friends, and being a lone ranting and raving lunatic hunting human
prey and making his visage known to the area. And more than that, having
"not-nice" characters allowed us to actually be the good guys, offering to
watch over mining areas and patrolling the woods for trouble.

Is there anything... anything... of that original environment left, or is it
pretty much dead.... no option but either a pk-fest or telletubbies? Is
there still an unstructured battle between Good and Evil, or is it pretty
much all meaningless guild warfare now?
Related resources
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 16, 2005 6:55:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.ultima-online,rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote in
news:118hbtejru8k805@corp.supernews.com:

> So, from the standpoint of someone who's been away for a good long
> while, how is UO nowadays? And what do I need to buy to get back in?
> (just that Samurai pack, or do I have to purchase something else? Not
> as if I can find it in any stores anymore...).

I was a returning Vet and consider it trashed. They got rid of the
original programmers and started giving away everything the players
wanted. Its not hard now to get anything you want in no time at all.

> Also, I'm curious about the free shards. THEY sound more like the Ye
> Wilde Olde West I loved at the game's start.

Very much so. I had no problem paying to play. I didnt switch to save
money. Its just that I couldnt stand what the UO server had become and
when I checked the free shards I found many who felt the same way (for a
huge variety of different reasons)

My desires didnt go back quite as far as yours but I waded thru nearly
100 free shards before finding one I liked. They were all different. Some
matching various previous versions of UO as they remember it, some in
small ways such as just being pro/con on PvP or RPG, some in such major
rewrites that it was hard to believe it was the same game at all. And I
think I only got thru about a third of them.

Load your old software and hit the update exe in the game directory. That
will update you as far as it can. Then hit UOGateway.com for a front-
loader which makes it real easy to visit most of the free shards. You can
decide later if you want to buy the samurai upgrade)

Gandalf Parker
--
Hey my wife loves me playing Ultima Online.
I get to pack-rat, try my hand at making things, visit other peoples
junk sales, kill & skin animals... all the things she hates me doing in
our garage.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 16, 2005 10:47:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:17:06 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
wrote:
>
>Is there anything... anything... of that original environment left, or is it
>pretty much dead.... no option but either a pk-fest or telletubbies? Is
>there still an unstructured battle between Good and Evil, or is it pretty
>much all meaningless guild warfare now?
>

That's all pretty much gone from the real shards except perhaps for
Siege Perilous. I'd go for either SP or one of the free shards if I
were you.

Reg LeCrisp - Atlantic
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 12:14:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote in
news:118hlh0mnsttua1@corp.supernews.com:

> Is there anything... anything... of that original environment left, or
> is it pretty much dead.... no option but either a pk-fest or
> telletubbies? Is there still an unstructured battle between Good and
> Evil, or is it pretty much all meaningless guild warfare now?

On the UO servers I think thats dead. Except maybe for... what was it
called, Legends?

I would recommend some free shards for you but in all honesty it sounds
like your preference is anti to mine. I moved on when I saw that there was
only a Fel, and stuck around to look even longer than usual if there was
only a Tram. (finally ended up on a shard with both but not working too
hard to make Fel desireable)

However, I do remember that there seemed to be an AWFUL lot of shards with
Fel only. You kindof have to look close though becuase many of them used
the Trammel scenery, with Fel rules. I remember that some seemed pretty
cool with nice logical added stuff and adult player base. Just not my style

Gandalf Parker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 12:14:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
news:Xns965886ACC62C6gandalfparker@208.201.224.154...
> "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote in
> news:118hlh0mnsttua1@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > Is there anything... anything... of that original environment left, or
> > is it pretty much dead.... no option but either a pk-fest or
> > telletubbies? Is there still an unstructured battle between Good and
> > Evil, or is it pretty much all meaningless guild warfare now?
>
> On the UO servers I think thats dead. Except maybe for... what was it
> called, Legends?
>
> I would recommend some free shards for you but in all honesty it sounds
> like your preference is anti to mine. I moved on when I saw that there was
> only a Fel, and stuck around to look even longer than usual if there was
> only a Tram. (finally ended up on a shard with both but not working too
> hard to make Fel desireable)
>
> However, I do remember that there seemed to be an AWFUL lot of shards with
> Fel only. You kindof have to look close though becuase many of them used
> the Trammel scenery, with Fel rules. I remember that some seemed pretty
> cool with nice logical added stuff and adult player base. Just not my
style

I'll have to look into it. The main issue I have is that while I know there
are probably some fel-only shards, I'm trying to avoid ones where most of
the player base is out for combat. It's only a good balance when a small
percentage of the population is hostile, and even then, they have to be
policed and greatly harassed in order to keep their population small.

The biggest problem with Tram/Fel being split, at least at the time, was
that there were only two real reasons to ever even BE in Felluca... to
gather resources that were exhausted in Tram, or to fight. And because of
the heavy fight mentality on Fel, it made even minor resource runs into a
dungeon crawl of their own (ie you were intercepted at a moongate most of
the time). All the quests, all the activities, were available in Tram,
which made Fel redundant for everything but combat.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 1:54:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote in
news:118i0j1vi00ob3@corp.supernews.com:

> I'll have to look into it. The main issue I have is that while I know
> there are probably some fel-only shards, I'm trying to avoid ones
> where most of the player base is out for combat. It's only a good
> balance when a small percentage of the population is hostile, and even
> then, they have to be policed and greatly harassed in order to keep
> their population small.
>

I totally understand. Im sure you will find many shards full of "just
fight" but Im also sure you will be able to find one that is balanced as
you wish it to be.

Check out TopShards.com
The descriptions are short but should convince you. I think they only
list the top 100 voted for shards. For instance, the #1 has this
description..

> UO: Rebirth
> The ONLY Pre-T2A shard in existance! Exact replica of 1997/1998 UO!
> -Brought to you by the creators of RunUO and Razor! -'Dread Lord' noto
> system -Old Style housing rules -Tents! -Supported Roleplaying
> -Unrestricted PvP -Balanced Combat and Economy

Gandalf Parker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 4:04:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

Reg LeCrisp <x@x.x> wrote in
news:am8i81d8av4us2rprul601f3st781r4tba@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:17:06 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>Is there anything... anything... of that original environment left, or
>>is it pretty much dead.... no option but either a pk-fest or
>>telletubbies? Is there still an unstructured battle between Good and
>>Evil, or is it pretty much all meaningless guild warfare now?
>
> That's all pretty much gone from the real shards except perhaps for
> Siege Perilous. I'd go for either SP or one of the free shards if I
> were you.

THAT was it! Siege Perilous (couldnt remember the name). I had fun on that
one playing a total man of peace. My name was "Benign D'terrent". It was
kindof fun the reactions when I wouldnt fight. Eventually abit of
recognition happened and the reds would warn others that I was total non-
combattant and not to attack me, and the blues would swarm from other
cities to Moonglow if someone did. :) 

Gandalf Parker
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 8:53:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:17:06 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
wrote:

> I missed in UO was the ability to really, truly, roleplay an evil
>bastard,

When was this? Every "evil" character I've run into over the past 7
years was roleplaying being an annoying brat. I got news for you:
you're not "evil", when all being killed means is a short dirt nap and
a trip home to re-equip. It's a game, fool: If you can't tell the
difference between this and reality I'm glad you've moved on to
inflict your "evil" ass on some other group of gamers.
--
Paleontologists recently announced they have
discovered when Man first discovered language:
Just after he invented the hammer and nail.

And it was BAD language.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 12:30:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"OrionCA" <OrionCA@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o 0ui81p4sptu8h45kgk829mvfv2m4fluqe@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:17:06 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
> wrote:
>
> > I missed in UO was the ability to really, truly, roleplay an evil
> >bastard,
>
> When was this? Every "evil" character I've run into over the past 7
> years was roleplaying being an annoying brat. I got news for you:
> you're not "evil", when all being killed means is a short dirt nap and
> a trip home to re-equip. It's a game, fool: If you can't tell the
> difference between this and reality I'm glad you've moved on to
> inflict your "evil" ass on some other group of gamers.

Yes, it's a game. That's why you'd have someone hunting and looting your
character, trying to terrorize you... as opposed to some angry player
looking up your home address, burning your house down, eating your children,
and raping you. If you'd like reality, that might be a start. Since that
also requires a little psychopathic behavior, I'd rather stick with a game
where my options are limited, but where I can have fun...

....without any real life people getting raped and eaten.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 2:42:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
news:Xns965897ACD1AD3gandalfparker@208.201.224.154...
> Check out TopShards.com
> The descriptions are short but should convince you. I think they only
> list the top 100 voted for shards. For instance, the #1 has this
> description..
>
> > UO: Rebirth
> > The ONLY Pre-T2A shard in existance! Exact replica of 1997/1998 UO!
> > -Brought to you by the creators of RunUO and Razor! -'Dread Lord' noto
> > system -Old Style housing rules -Tents! -Supported Roleplaying
> > -Unrestricted PvP -Balanced Combat and Economy
>

Looking at their site, I should be good to go. However... the only existing
copy I have (I THINK I got a glimpse of it in a binder recently) is pretty
old, preT2A. Not a beta client, but probably an original retail release.
Do you think (after a long patching session) this is suitable... and is
there an advantage on other shards to buying a more recent copy?
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 17, 2005 10:22:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote in
news:118k4c3b7ph1c4a@corp.supernews.com:

> "Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
> news:Xns965897ACD1AD3gandalfparker@208.201.224.154...
>
> Looking at their site, I should be good to go. However... the only
> existing copy I have (I THINK I got a glimpse of it in a binder
> recently) is pretty old, preT2A. Not a beta client, but probably an
> original retail release. Do you think (after a long patching session)
> this is suitable... and is there an advantage on other shards to
> buying a more recent copy?

Well I had a UO:Renaissance copy. I reloaded it and patched it forward
which was enough to get into shards and decide that I would enjoy
playing. Then I bought a cheap upgrade at uo.com which apparently brought
it up to Age of Shadows (paladins and necromacers and custom houses).
That was going to be as far as I was going but I quickly started getting
staff offers and it was a pain not being able to get to the samurai maps
so I went ahead and bought the SE full version.

All in all I was pretty happy that I was able to play until I was
convinced and THEN upgrade each level of software. It saves me trying to
convince anyone to shell out real dollars based just on my opinion

Gandalf Parker
May 18, 2005 1:06:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:118k4c3b7ph1c4a@corp.supernews.com...
> Looking at their site, I should be good to go. However... the only
> existing
> copy I have (I THINK I got a glimpse of it in a binder recently) is pretty
> old, preT2A. Not a beta client, but probably an original retail release.
> Do you think (after a long patching session) this is suitable... and is
> there an advantage on other shards to buying a more recent copy?
>
>
I think they rationalised the clients about 3 months ago, and the pre-T2A
one went IIRC.
I think age of shadows is a minimum for play on the OSI servers, the old
ones won't patch anymore.

Archeon
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 18, 2005 3:22:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

On Tue, 17 May 2005 08:30:48 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
wrote:

>"OrionCA" <OrionCA@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:o 0ui81p4sptu8h45kgk829mvfv2m4fluqe@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:17:06 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
>> wrote:

>Yes, it's a game. That's why you'd have someone hunting and looting your
>character, trying to terrorize you...

What if you don't wish to be hunted, looted or terrorised?

Some people don't find that aspect of the game [that-once-was] all
that enjoyable. And I'm not being sarcastic about it, because I never
used to mind being hunted and looted, as long as it was my decision.
The problem was when I had no say in the matter. Playing on Atlantic
from Australia life (with a 400 ping) for most of my UO life, gave me
very little say.

There was excitement though, which disappeared almost overnight with
the advent of Trammel.

Since then, the game has become one of utter blandness. Not only did
the very worst element leave, but also the very best, leaving only the
beige people.

> as opposed to some angry player
>looking up your home address, burning your house down, eating your children,
>and raping you. If you'd like reality, that might be a start. Since that
>also requires a little psychopathic behavior, I'd rather stick with a game
>where my options are limited, but where I can have fun...
>
>...without any real life people getting raped and eaten.

You still need victims though, and playing a victim comes very low on
most peoples wishlists.

You may find a shard of willing PvP'ers, but you aren't going to find
a clone of Dread Lord UO. There won't be the large pool of helpless
victims there used to be. You might get to loot and hunt, but you
won't be terrorising anyone.



TB




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 18, 2005 3:22:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Taras Bulba" <no-one@blittohead.com> wrote in message
news:kv5l8158nofb3uudon6dl80nina4a815pg@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 May 2005 08:30:48 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
> wrote:
>
> >"OrionCA" <OrionCA@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:o 0ui81p4sptu8h45kgk829mvfv2m4fluqe@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:17:06 -0500, "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >Yes, it's a game. That's why you'd have someone hunting and looting your
> >character, trying to terrorize you...
>
> What if you don't wish to be hunted, looted or terrorised?
>
> Some people don't find that aspect of the game [that-once-was] all
> that enjoyable. And I'm not being sarcastic about it, because I never
> used to mind being hunted and looted, as long as it was my decision.
> The problem was when I had no say in the matter. Playing on Atlantic
> from Australia life (with a 400 ping) for most of my UO life, gave me
> very little say.

To an extent there's some responsibility involved as a player.
Indiscriminate pvp on everyone you can, taking anything you can, doesn't
contribute much to any game. But, for a while at least, it wasn't so bad.
The main pk hangouts were places like bridges and other specific areas. As
a non-combat player you quickly learned what areas to avoid, and when new to
an area it was standard to ask the locals where the danger spots were. When
traveling, you either were careful on some parts of the road, or did like I
did and never actually use the roads (I often did a Trinsic/Vesper run, and
got to know those backwoods very well). If the wrong kind of character came
up on you, if you were alert, you could get away fairly easily (if they were
unmounted, they wouldn't catch you - if they were, you just hit denser
foliage and they'd be forced to dismount to give chase).

I got killed a number of times, but in all but one or two cases I could have
escaped if I either didn't try to stand my ground, or hadn't been so intent
on what I was doing that I risked a dreadlord getting that close enough for
a volley of spells. I escaped almost every time, or managed to avoid their
attention.

As long as the hunter-killer population is reasonably small in comparison
with the main population, it's not a significant hardship. In the
beginning, at least, the areas between towns were supposed to be dangerous,
and we were warned before the alphas began that there would be very human
killers wandering the countryside. If it hadn't been for them, travel
wouldn't have been much of an experience.
May 18, 2005 6:13:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote
>
> For example... a while back in UO, before the tram/fell split, mining was
a
> dangerous proposition. No place was completely safe, but when you were
> working the more populous areas it was a given that any attackers would
have
> a group of angry players on them (and that any miner could often escape to
> safety if attacked). However, the mining was harder to come by due to
that
> population. If you had the guts, and worked on self-defense, you could
work
> the more remote areas. Chances are, you'd be left alone... but the
danger
> was that if anyone DID come by, you were all alone. It provided for many
> hours of me screaming at a monitor after my load was hijacked, but it also
> made mining more fun than mindlessly hacking at a rock wall.

bullshit.

In the days before the Trammel split, Mining was completely broken. Very
few people could get any more that a handful of ingots, and EVERY mining
spot was swarmed with PK's. Most miners were completely helpless, because
most miners had up to 200 of their skill points tied up in Miner/Smith
points.

It was endless slaughter, I remember weekends where I lost over 100 Ingots
for every one I managed to safely get home to my forge. I died multiple
times per hour, and had to teleport out within 15 minutes almost everywhere
I went.

Any romanticizing of this period is glorifying the game at the WORST period
of it's existence, when immature d3wd speaking idiots roamed the game in
massive numbers, and killed helpless craftsmen and newbies. It was this
period that finally convinced me that there was NO place in ANY game for
involuntary PVP. I lost my tolerance for any PK'ing completely, and lost my
respect for every PK I knew.

Ingot Head of Minoc
Atlantic
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 18, 2005 6:14:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Ingot" <cleahy@spamstinks.iglou.com> wrote in message
news:428b85e8$1_1@news.iglou.com...
>
> "Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote
> bullshit.
>
> In the days before the Trammel split, Mining was completely broken. Very
> few people could get any more that a handful of ingots, and EVERY mining
> spot was swarmed with PK's. Most miners were completely helpless, because
> most miners had up to 200 of their skill points tied up in Miner/Smith
> points.
>
> It was endless slaughter, I remember weekends where I lost over 100 Ingots
> for every one I managed to safely get home to my forge. I died multiple
> times per hour, and had to teleport out within 15 minutes almost
everywhere
> I went.
>
> Any romanticizing of this period is glorifying the game at the WORST
period
> of it's existence, when immature d3wd speaking idiots roamed the game in
> massive numbers, and killed helpless craftsmen and newbies. It was this
> period that finally convinced me that there was NO place in ANY game for
> involuntary PVP. I lost my tolerance for any PK'ing completely, and lost
my
> respect for every PK I knew.

Admittedly, I missed out on the period shortly before the split. When I
left (the first time), the game was being continually reballanced (which
just made it increasingly less ballanced and saw more and more abuse). When
I came back, the split had recently occured. I never experienced anything
like what you mention though, even though I played for a good while at the
start, and for at least a number of months around 2000. Maybe it was the
server I played on the most (Atlantic), or maybe it was the time I played...
but as often as I ran into pk's (or people I suspected were pk's, I rarely
gave them time to let me know), I didn't actually die that often (even with
my own miner/blacksmith, who had virtually zero combat skill but could hide
pretty damned well).

The problem with no involuntary pvp is that some games are meant to be
peaceful, and some are not. Originally, during and shortly after the betas,
the general opinion of Origin seemed to be that unprotected areas were bound
to be dangerous, and that you could get killed. But over time the player
base shifted towards people that seemed to either just want nice peaceful
unchallenging gameplay, or want a non-stop brutal bloodbath with little
character to it. Honestly, except for the occasional act of stupidity, or
when assaulting something at the upper tier of difficulty... how many times
did you actually die in the game? As long as you picked your fights with
some caution, kept an eye out for being cornered, and were willing to run
when it became obvious that you wouldn't win, how often did npc monsters
actually manage to do more than make you run off and rest for a moment?

When you get a number of immature players who are just out to cause personal
grief for the sake of annoying people, and their numbers get too high, it
unballances things. But when that happens, it's better to just make things
more difficult on people who choose to play that way. The token efforts
they made (stat loss, bounties, etc) did a little, but they could have done
far more (increasingly effective npc bounty hunters who weren't as muzzled
in their behavior as the regular ones). The end result should be to
discourage idiots who just want quick and easy loot, but leave freedom for
players trying to play unvirtuous characters. You want there to be real
threats out there, but not to the extent where leaving town is a death
sentence.

Also... I realize that people want different things out of different games.
I see nothing wrong with "safe" games, and play a number of them myself (I
mostly play WoW on an RP server, even if I have pvp unlocked most of the
time now just to keep things exciting). My issue is when the nature of a
game begins to shift from one kind of game (one I thoroughly enjoyed, as
well as many others) to another (which aparently more people enjoyed, even
if the player base degenerated a bit). In a game that does not include pvp
in it's nature, no there's no place for involuntary pvp. But in a game
(which UO was at the time) that DOES include significant pvp as a risk to
the general public in it's design, involuntary pvp is simply part of the
game world. Now, I suppose it no longer has it's place, but back then, it
deffinitely did (even if it got out of hand over time).
May 18, 2005 6:45:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

On Wed, 18 May 2005 14:13:59 -0400, "Ingot"
<cleahy@spamstinks.iglou.com> wrote:

>
>"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote
>>
>> For example... a while back in UO, before the tram/fell split, mining was
>a
>> dangerous proposition. No place was completely safe, but when you were
>> working the more populous areas it was a given that any attackers would
>have
>> a group of angry players on them (and that any miner could often escape to
>> safety if attacked). However, the mining was harder to come by due to
>that
>> population. If you had the guts, and worked on self-defense, you could
>work
>> the more remote areas. Chances are, you'd be left alone... but the
>danger
>> was that if anyone DID come by, you were all alone. It provided for many
>> hours of me screaming at a monitor after my load was hijacked, but it also
>> made mining more fun than mindlessly hacking at a rock wall.
>
>bullshit.
>
>In the days before the Trammel split, Mining was completely broken. Very
>few people could get any more that a handful of ingots, and EVERY mining
>spot was swarmed with PK's. Most miners were completely helpless, because
>most miners had up to 200 of their skill points tied up in Miner/Smith
>points.
>
>It was endless slaughter, I remember weekends where I lost over 100 Ingots
>for every one I managed to safely get home to my forge. I died multiple
>times per hour, and had to teleport out within 15 minutes almost everywhere
>I went.
>
>Any romanticizing of this period is glorifying the game at the WORST period
>of it's existence, when immature d3wd speaking idiots roamed the game in
>massive numbers, and killed helpless craftsmen and newbies. It was this
>period that finally convinced me that there was NO place in ANY game for
>involuntary PVP. I lost my tolerance for any PK'ing completely, and lost my
>respect for every PK I knew.
>
>Ingot Head of Minoc
>Atlantic
>
Hi there Ingot, good to see you posting. Are you playing again?
Seems you remember UO in the "good old days" the same way
I do.

Ice
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 18, 2005 8:19:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:80bn8196f1qu60fdrh60iiru18hf218rkk@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 14:13:59 -0400, "Ingot" <cleahy@spamstinks.iglou.com>
> wrote:
>
> >bullshit.
>
> Hehe, good to see you remember the way it was. :) 

Heh... guess I got off lucky then, and I remember my time on there pretty
well. There were plenty of times I had to go screaming through the woods
leaving a brown trail behind me, but I never had it as bad as you guys seem
to have had. And the ones who did get me were a bit more... talkative. The
only real issue that caused me grief early on was that damned Paralysis
spell - initially, they could cast it quickly and you were stuck, even after
they hit you. Even after they modded it, it was still my single greatest
fear (a heavy xbow being my second), but at first it was a death sentence,
plain and simple.

I did lose my mules a number of times though. They never kept up when
running at full speed.

One thing I did notice, though. When the pk'ing really started to seriously
pick up, right about the time I left... most of the more... mechanical...
pkillers didn't seem to speak any english at all (or just refused to). It
got to where anyone who walked in speaking (what looked a little like
Japanese, as opposed to Mandarin, etc) was enough to set me to immediately
abandon my mining and head for the exit. There were plenty of "i KiLLz ju
d00d!" types running around, but the game seemed to attract the wrong crowd
from... wherever... when it went international.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 18, 2005 8:32:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

Everett Hickey wrote:
> "Taras Bulba" <no-one@blittohead.com> wrote in message
> news:kv5l8158nofb3uudon6dl80nina4a815pg@4ax.com...
<snip>
> I got killed a number of times, but in all but one or two cases I could have
> escaped if I either didn't try to stand my ground, or hadn't been so intent
> on what I was doing that I risked a dreadlord getting that close enough for
> a volley of spells. I escaped almost every time, or managed to avoid their
> attention.

That does not exactly match my recollection of the way things were. PvP
was synonymous with cheating and exploits. For at least the first year
there was the no fighting in a guard zone or get guard whacked rule set.
This led to grief thieves that would rob you and race to a guard zone to
get you guard whacked. Not just one or two, but dozens of them at every
city entrance in the game. Juan Valdez on Atlantic, Trinsic Borrowers on
Baja, list goes on.

On average I used to kill maybe 6-8 people a night. In that time I can
recall exactly two players that didn't use the exploit 'hidden words of
power.' Fast walk was also big: I remember one assmunch who asked to
spar in the Moonglow cementary. Soon as I attacked he ran all the way to
the Moonglow Zoo and got me guard whacked. I've remember getting hit
with 5 ebolts whith some cheater actually still able to out run me and
move in front to block me in what couldn't have been more then a 12
second run to town.

There were also the stat and skill hacks. Nothing quite like trying to
take on a cheater with 300 skill levels and 150 for all their stats.

Trammel didn't kill PvP, cheaters did. PvP was dead, I REPEAT DEAD!!! a
long time before Trammel came in. I remember posting to the very
newsgroup about my inspection of shards where you could only find ~12
people in game, all of them bank thieves hanging out at what used to be
popular banks. This was way before Trammel saw the light of day. I seem
to recall spending at least a month GM'ing my tamer and skill maxing my
dragons in dungeons and in that entire time I saw one red player.
May 18, 2005 10:02:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote

> Admittedly, I missed out on the period shortly before the split. When I
> left (the first time), the game was being continually reballanced (which
> just made it increasingly less ballanced and saw more and more abuse).
> When
> I came back, the split had recently occured. I never experienced anything
> like what you mention though, even though I played for a good while at the
> start, and for at least a number of months around 2000.

I had many people simply disbelieve me when I detailed what was happening to
me. Some flat called me a liar.

Others on at that time however, vouched for me and claimed similar
experiences. There seems to have been some variability, maybe having to do
with what times you were normally on, and who you knew. (I knew a lot of
people that had PK characters, that kept claiming that their non-pk's never
got attacked, and ponitificating as to how easy it was to escape, but I also
say in-game how often PK d00ds would pass up one miner to attack others, and
while my ghost was hanging around, they would have a little chat with the
miners who had PK's as alternates.)

All I can say is that the situation I described existed, and it existed for
a lot of us.

> Maybe it was the
> server I played on the most (Atlantic), or maybe it was the time I
> played...
> but as often as I ran into pk's (or people I suspected were pk's, I rarely
> gave them time to let me know), I didn't actually die that often (even
> with
> my own miner/blacksmith, who had virtually zero combat skill but could
> hide
> pretty damned well).

That was Ingot too. On Atlantic, almost 200 taken up with mining/smithing,
excellent hiding skill, and a little magery/swords/tactics (Enough to take
care of nuisance monsters). Did me no good whatsoever with the PK's though.

One of my problems was that I was partial to boat mining. I liked it
because you could stack up huge amounts of ore, and not have to run to the
forge every two minutes. While I tried ALL forms of mining in the bad ol'
days, the seas were filled with a particularly vicious mob of PK's.

Not that I had any better luck on land.

As for your analysis, some of it rings true, some not. UO had reached the
point where it was completely broken. Good players that joined ended up
seeing only pk-killers, exploitation, and scams/cheats. It had reached the
point where that became the predominant culture of the game, and people that
would otherwise have been good players turned to these actions as well.

Ingot
May 18, 2005 10:11:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Everett Hickey" <everett@ev1.net> wrote

> What kind of problems does TMO have? Never played it, just curious (as it
> looked like a great idea that just wouldn't pan out). CoH does a good job
> of keeping it's people happy, though I never managed to enjoy it much
> myself. I mostly play WoW, but it's getting old as there's little to do
> but
> combat (now that I've hit 60, explored just about every inch of the world,
> etc).

Well, it has some good and some bad, but it's technically buggy. The
"mouselook" is slow and sluggish, and drops frames if you turn too fast, the
fighting system (wire-fu stuff that is actually pretty cool) doesn't place
the characters well, and it suffers from a whole lot of "not enough new".

One cool innovation is that memorize abilities, and buy new ones to memorize
as you get higher level. WHat you can remember depends on how much memory
it takes, and if you want you can at any time zap all of your current
skills, and learn a whole new line. You can go from a Kung Fu fighter type
to a "coder" craftsman type with a few clicks.

Doing so at first isn't really advisable since you put a lot of money into
buying these abilities and upgrading the ones you can, so switching and
upgrading a new set can be expensive. It's best to go ahead and follow one
line to the top so you're always as effective as possible for your level,
but once you can earn good money, your char can buy other skills, drop the
old ones, learn the new ones, and upgrade them if they can be, at a moments
notice.

Really, I think if they would fix the sluggish mouse look, it would do a LOT
toward fixing it for me... I think it's just bad programming, but it isn't
without it's innovations.

Ingot
May 18, 2005 10:15:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> wrote

> That's what BODs and Diabloesque magic item drops did to UO.

Hi Poly!

Yeah, that and making the skill sets so easy that they became a mule's
realm. As much as I cursed Smithing when I was becoming GM, the fact that
it was so difficult kept the class honest, and made the "GM" label something
to be proud of. When people started becoming GM Smiths in a matter of a
week or two as opposed the MONTHS it took me, I could have cried.


> Well, in UO I am trying to decide between remaking a thiefly character or
> perhaps I'll just make a treasure hunter again. Right now I'm playing
> Still Life (just got it) which is some kind of CSI styled adventure game
> that reminds me a lot of Syberia and I'm also playing the new T2X fan
> expansion for Thief II. Oh, when I get time I will start on U7SI using
> Exult since I just finished U7BG a couple days ago.

You know, I really enjoyed my fisherman for awhile. What killed him was
when they put the maps/bottles on sea serpents. He had NO fighting ability,
and nothing seemed to do the job for him.

Ingot
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 18, 2005 10:21:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:15:06 -0400, "Ingot" <cleahy@spamstinks.iglou.com>
wrote:

>
>"Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> wrote
>
>> That's what BODs and Diabloesque magic item drops did to UO.
>
>Hi Poly!
>
>Yeah, that and making the skill sets so easy that they became a mule's
>realm. As much as I cursed Smithing when I was becoming GM, the fact that
>it was so difficult kept the class honest, and made the "GM" label something
>to be proud of. When people started becoming GM Smiths in a matter of a
>week or two as opposed the MONTHS it took me, I could have cried.

Yeah, it took me 4-5 years (I don't really recall) for my smith to finally
GM. No powergaming for him - just smelting found armor and weapons, then
using the iron to forge new stuff. Heck, since the advent of powerscrolls
I think he has only gone up about 1.4 points past GM. No need for a +25
scroll yet anyhow.

>> Well, in UO I am trying to decide between remaking a thiefly character or
>> perhaps I'll just make a treasure hunter again. Right now I'm playing
>> Still Life (just got it) which is some kind of CSI styled adventure game
>> that reminds me a lot of Syberia and I'm also playing the new T2X fan
>> expansion for Thief II. Oh, when I get time I will start on U7SI using
>> Exult since I just finished U7BG a couple days ago.
>
>You know, I really enjoyed my fisherman for awhile. What killed him was
>when they put the maps/bottles on sea serpents. He had NO fighting ability,
>and nothing seemed to do the job for him.

Well, at least there aren't piles of hundreds of shoes left on the shores
anymore. I did have fun with a bit of fishing skill pulling up treasure
chests when they were first done like that. Ships have never been
properly utilized in UO. The original design would have been fun even if
it was logistically difficult.

--
Michael Cecil
http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/
http://home.comcast.net/~safehex/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 19, 2005 4:24:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

Ingot wrote:
> "Michael Cecil" <macecil@comcast.net> wrote
>
>
>>That's what BODs and Diabloesque magic item drops did to UO.
>
>
> Hi Poly!
>
> Yeah, that and making the skill sets so easy that they became a mule's
> realm. As much as I cursed Smithing when I was becoming GM, the fact that
> it was so difficult kept the class honest, and made the "GM" label something
> to be proud of. When people started becoming GM Smiths in a matter of a
> week or two as opposed the MONTHS it took me, I could have cried.
>
>
>
>>Well, in UO I am trying to decide between remaking a thiefly character or
>>perhaps I'll just make a treasure hunter again. Right now I'm playing
>>Still Life (just got it) which is some kind of CSI styled adventure game
>>that reminds me a lot of Syberia and I'm also playing the new T2X fan
>>expansion for Thief II. Oh, when I get time I will start on U7SI using
>>Exult since I just finished U7BG a couple days ago.
>
>
> You know, I really enjoyed my fisherman for awhile. What killed him was
> when they put the maps/bottles on sea serpents. He had NO fighting ability,
> and nothing seemed to do the job for him.

I have a couple of tamer/fishermen and they seem to get along better
then other mixes. At the top end, casting fishing nets, you can handle
most spawns with a white wyrm. They were pretty much tamers all the way
up, either using a blue beetle or a couple of ostards for firepower. I
prefer tamer to even GM weapon skill like I have on my Hokuto fisherman.

Most of the reasons to be a fisherman are gone now. You still get loot,
but the loot from monsters is easier to come by and comes a lot faster.

There has been a lot of skills added that compete for your basic 700
skill points. It used to be you were just at a 20-30% disadvantage to
players in PvP if you chose to do a profession. Now you are at a 20-30%
disadvantage to monster harvesters and PvP is a joke. I should say I do
like my scribes as the one with 110 magery, 110 EI, and 100 inscription
routinely does 90+ points of damage with single spells.

It's mostly a mixed bag with the new items. I have a couple of suits
that give reagent free spell casting and it is the greatest thing since
zippers. Item count in the game must be huge now with all the junk.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
May 19, 2005 12:59:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.computer.ultima.online (More info?)

"Ingot" <cleahy@spamstinks.iglou.com> wrote in message
news:428bbb7f$1_1@news.iglou.com...
> I had many people simply disbelieve me when I detailed what was happening
to
> me. Some flat called me a liar.
>
> Others on at that time however, vouched for me and claimed similar
> experiences. There seems to have been some variability, maybe having to
do
> with what times you were normally on, and who you knew. (I knew a lot of
> people that had PK characters, that kept claiming that their non-pk's
never
> got attacked, and ponitificating as to how easy it was to escape, but I
also
> say in-game how often PK d00ds would pass up one miner to attack others,
and
> while my ghost was hanging around, they would have a little chat with the
> miners who had PK's as alternates.)
>
> All I can say is that the situation I described existed, and it existed
for
> a lot of us.

Not doubting you, just saying I missed out on some of that hell from the
looks of it. hehe

> That was Ingot too. On Atlantic, almost 200 taken up with
mining/smithing,
> excellent hiding skill, and a little magery/swords/tactics (Enough to take
> care of nuisance monsters). Did me no good whatsoever with the PK's
though.
>
> One of my problems was that I was partial to boat mining. I liked it
> because you could stack up huge amounts of ore, and not have to run to the
> forge every two minutes. While I tried ALL forms of mining in the bad ol'
> days, the seas were filled with a particularly vicious mob of PK's.

Boat mining?

> As for your analysis, some of it rings true, some not. UO had reached the
> point where it was completely broken. Good players that joined ended up
> seeing only pk-killers, exploitation, and scams/cheats. It had reached
the
> point where that became the predominant culture of the game, and people
that
> would otherwise have been good players turned to these actions as well.

I think that started with the "harmless" little macro and add-on programs
that most people considered valid to use. I tended to side more with Origin
at the time - everyone should be playing the exact same client, no addons,
no external software. I didn't even like sites like Stratics, etc...
because they gave away too much information (of course, that's the norm
now - 2 weeks after release, every detail about a game is online). Once
people start using addons, they become more efficient, and to remain
competitive for the same resources you have to follow suit... then they
upgrade. We've all seen where that goes (*cough*Diablo*cough*)
!