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July 18, 2007 8:05:52 PM

Hi! I travel about 24 days a month and need a GOOD gaming laptop. I am really interested in playing Oblivion, and SupCom, and having them work reasonbly well, with good detail. Been all over the internet trying to get info, but it seems the only GPU that can really handle Oblivion is GF8800gtx, which I obviously cant use... I figure the best options are:

CPU: core 2 duo, 1.8 or better
GPU: GF 8 series M, but I dont know the REAL impact of 256 vice 512 dedicated memory. .GDDR3.
RAM: 2 gig+ GDDR2, T7300 or PC5300, 667 or faster FSB, 4mb L2
Screen size: 15.4 or 17, after much research, I still cant understand REAL differences in wsuxga+ codes.
HD: 5400-7200 RPM, size isnt a huge issue
Bat: isnt a big deal, as I will accept unplugged time limits.
OS: Vista Home
anything else seems unimportant to me

I have been seriously considering the satellite x205-s9349 with the geforce 8700m GT

I have also been considering systems with dual 7950s but really want to have a DX10 capable laptop so that it would *hopefully* last a few years. But the GF 85/600s I have read over and over about how seriously underpowered and dissapointing they are.

I have been watching Xotic Sager, M-tech, hypersonic, falcon-nw, alienware, killer, acer, anandtech and widow... They all seem like good systems, but I am budgeted to about $2,000, less is better as its all going on credit anyway.

Anyone have any suggestions to help me decide?

Anyone with gaming laptop, this satellite model especially, or with any other similar setup, can you tell me how well it plays Oblivion in outdoors, large space sims, and Supreme Commander?


Any thoughts are very appreciated, Thanks! :pt1cable: 

More about : gaming laptops

July 19, 2007 3:56:07 PM

Have you checked out KillerNotebooks? He has some sweet gaming laptops.
July 21, 2007 11:34:07 PM

yep, Killer has some cool lappies. I am keeping an eye on em too, do you think getting a GF8600 or 8700 notebook would be a viable and cheaper alternative to the more expensive extreme gaming laptops. how huge of a difference visually between? Can it even be quantified without using FPS, or what is a non headache inducing FPS.
Related resources
a b D Laptop
July 22, 2007 3:56:39 AM

The 8600mGT is about equal to the go7900GS and the 8700mGT is supposed to perform around the same as the 7950GTX (nothing definitive has been released about performance). If anything, a laptop with a "DX10" card will be more expensive since its newer. Don't expect to see Killernotebooks replace the 7950s since nothing beats them right now. When/if the 8800 comes out he might upgrade or if the 8700 proves to be better. Until then it's 7950GTX ftw.
July 22, 2007 7:50:39 AM

Can you seriously get 2 7950's in a laptop? I had no idea this was possible.

I'm going to China very soon and while I'm there I've got to buy a good gaming laptop. Price isn't an issue as I've found that everything is so affordable over there.

Anyway, I went here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_8_Series#GeForce_8...

A nd saw that plenty of Geforce series 8 cards for laptops are being released. I went to ebay.com to see how much they would cost and I cannot find any series 8 cards for sale. The best video card for a notebook I could find were a few 7950's.

So what I'm asking is:
1.Is it possible to have dual 7950's in a laptop?
2. What series 8 cards are out at the moment for laptop?

Thanks!
July 22, 2007 9:30:50 AM

And where are they available? Usually I buy from ebay (about a year ago I built a gaming PC from scratch and I got most of the parts from ebay.) Are the geforce 8 series on ebay? If not, why not?
a b D Laptop
July 22, 2007 1:52:25 PM

You need to understand that laptop graphics cards are not like the desktop version. They are smaller than what you get for desktops and usually only sold in bulk to manufacturers. The likely hood of you being able to find one on your own is very unlikely.( I apologize if you knew this already. Most people don't though)

1)Yes it is possible, the GPU is the 7950GTX. Note that is GTX not GT or GX2 like the desktop versions. Basically any laptop that is an SLI laptop is using the 7950s because the new 8 series for laptops aren't that good.

2) 8400m GS and GT
8600m GS and GT
8700m GT (out sometime this summer)

If you are looking to replace a GPU in a laptop, your best bet is to contact the manufacturer about it. If you are looking to build a barebones laptop, the GPU is already included in the bundle. You only need to buy the CPU, RAM, HDD and DVD.
July 22, 2007 11:33:05 PM

Wow, thanks a lot. That was very helpful.

Any idea exactly which model will sell sli 7950's? eg: Dell XPS 1710
a b D Laptop
July 23, 2007 1:13:12 AM

The only one that has an Intel CPU and 2x7950 is the Clevo 900C. There is one with an AMD CPU, but it's larger and Intel is the better choice for laptops. The thing with the Clevos is that they are rebranded by dozens of other companies like Alienware, Sager, Widow and others. killernotebooks.com is coming out with their brand of the 900C and assuming it's not out of your price range you should consider it. The XPS is not designed for dual graphics cards. Maybe Dell will come out with an SLi laptop but at the moment they don't.
July 23, 2007 5:36:26 AM

Ok so for notebook gamers Clevo 900C is the best choice?

and do you think 2x7950's will be sufficient to handle 2008 games?
July 23, 2007 7:27:48 AM

Another Q, A salesperson is trying to sell me a new DELL XPS 1710, I asked what video card, she said it's NVIDIA 512 meg 7600 GS - Does such a card exist for laptops?
July 23, 2007 8:22:12 AM

Yeah the GeforceGO 7600 is the standard model that is often called the GS it's sometimes sold with or without the GS suffix, and you will see it appear in windows as a GS, and it comes in 64/128/256 and 512MB variants, but the later is rare, and often people quote the number for the TurboCache support amount, not actual physical memory. Most models are in the middle at 128 or 256MB, with the two outter ranges being rare.

There is also the GFGO7600GT and GFGO7700.

However a quick look at Dell's website shows that currently the XPS 1710 ships with either a GFGO7900GS w/ 256MB or the GFGO7950GTX w/ 512MB. So it must be an older model she'd be talking about.
a b D Laptop
July 23, 2007 3:34:50 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Yeah the GeforceGO 7600 is the standard model that is often called the GS it's sometimes sold with or without the GS suffix, and you will see it appear in windows as a GS, and it comes in 64/128/256 and 512MB variants, but the later is rare, and often people quote the number for the TurboCache support amount, not actual physical memory. Most models are in the middle at 128 or 256MB, with the two outter ranges being rare.

There is also the GFGO7600GT and GFGO7700.

However a quick look at Dell's website shows that currently the XPS 1710 ships with either a GFGO7900GS w/ 256MB or the GFGO7950GTX w/ 512MB. So it must be an older model she'd be talking about.



Actually that person has no idea what they are talking about. Dell has NEVER offered the 7600 on the XPS system. Now, the person may have been confused and the laptop may have a 512mb video card (the7950) and the T7600 processor.

The laptop I have in my sig uses a single 7950 and it is quite incredible considering that it is in a laptop. If you buy from Mark at killernotebooks.com, he is willing to upgrade the graphics cards for the price difference between the two. His Intel SLi system isn't out yet, but drop him an e-mail. Ask about the Odachi and say you heard it from me.
July 23, 2007 11:15:42 PM

Yeah I agree if you're going for true gaming right now, then the GF7950GTX, MRX1900 or SLi combos are pretty much the best routes, the mid-range GF7600/7700/8600 or MRX1600/1700/1800 aren't going to do it for most people focusing on gaming. The only exception to this is Oblivion, where the GF8700 might give the GF7950 a run for it's money. IMO it'd be one of the only games, but the efficiency of the GF8 series in that game is pretty noticeable.

I assume the Odachi is going to fit in the blank spot down the centre of KN's product list?
July 24, 2007 12:45:15 AM

The laptops at killernotebooks.com were enough to leave me with my mouth open in awe... Those are some beautiful machines, but I don't plan on spending anymore than $2k US on a laptop... And when I do buy, it'll be in China or Taiwan as I'm going to both those places pretty soon.

Why the heck would u want to spend up $4000-$6000 on a LAPTOP when everyone knows everything in the IT industry (especially computers) depreciate so rapidly.

I built a PC from scratch only a year ago, made sure I got the best deals - a year later its literally halved in value! Buy a $6000 laptop, in one year it'll be worth $3000, in another year you'll be stuck with a 11 pound laptop out-dated laptop that few gamers would want!

Anyway, Thanks for your help with the DELL XPS 1710 info - your right, there is no 7600 GS 512 meg for DELL XP 1710. It's probably a single 7950.

But personally I'm think it's best to hold out a few months until a very good and reliable geforce 8 series card is out and is clearly well ahead of any series 7 cards.
July 25, 2007 2:19:31 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Yeah I agree if you're going for true gaming right now, then the GF7950GTX, MRX1900 or SLi combos are pretty much the best routes, the mid-range GF7600/7700/8600 or MRX1600/1700/1800 aren't going to do it for most people focusing on gaming. The only exception to this is Oblivion, where the GF8700 might give the GF7950 a run for it's money. IMO it'd be one of the only games, but the efficiency of the GF8 series in that game is pretty noticeable.

I assume the Odachi is going to fit in the blank spot down the centre of KN's product list?


Hey Grape, I bolded your quote about the 8700 doing well with oblivion, but not much else. Is that because of the DX10? Could you explain or direct me to where I can learn more about laptops and GPU performance? That particular type of review is darn near impossible to find... & 8series laptops are generally cheaper, and I am price conscious, as nick pointed out about long term value. So I am seriously considering the Toshiba X205 as it is the only laptop I know that uses the 8700M.
My main interest is oblivion and games like supcom, See my original post for my thoughts,

Thanks a Lot!
July 25, 2007 3:26:21 AM

SupCom is a demanding game, all RTS's that involve 100's-1000's of units on screen a require pretty powerful card and cpu to play smoothly. So make sure the laptop you purchase has both.

How much is the Toshiba? and Where would you buy it from?

One thing you need to investigate (if you haven't already) is the differences between series 7 cards (ideally 7950) versus 8700M performance/price wise.
July 25, 2007 4:22:01 AM

jetpilot79 said:
Hey Grape, I bolded your quote about the 8700 doing well with oblivion, but not much else. Is that because of the DX10?


IT's not DX10, Oblivion is DX9. The only feature advantages the GF8 has over the GF7 would be the ability to run with HDR+AA and also the ability to use penalty free Higher quality AF. However the unified shader design with better branching than the previous generation seems to play very well with Oblivion switching easily from heavy pixel to heavy vertex loads. Oblivion is one of the only games that the GF86xx series design outperforms the GF79xx and even X19xx series, along with Stalker.

Quote:
Could you explain or direct me to where I can learn more about laptops and GPU performance? That particular type of review is darn near impossible to find...


Yeah they are pretty impossible because few configurations are similar. However, keeping in mind that the GF8700M-GT specs are between those of the desktop GF8600GT and GF8600GTS (close to a GT XXX which runs at the same memory but 5mhz slower core), and that the GFGO7950GTX is just a bit better than the desktop GF7950GT and the GFGO7900GTX is bit worse, compare a few performance results on that basis you can extrapolate alot of information on performance (keeping in mind that overall performance may be different due to CPU/RAM/HDD differences). Looking at this Firingsquad review with the GT XXX you should be able to get an idea of the performance in Oblivion;
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_8600_gts_preview/page8.asp
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_8600_gts_preview/page9.asp

Take particular note of the second benchmark which shows what happened when the shader load is increased, and when playing the biggest issue is worst case scenario and min FPS, which in Oblivion favour the GF8600/8700 series.

A few more;
http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2007q2/geforce-8600/index.x?pg=7
http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2007q2/geforce-8600/index.x?pg=5
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce8600gts_17.html#sect0
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/2007/test_ati_radeon_hd_2400_xt_hd_2600_xt/16/#abschnitt_oblivion

That's why I say that Oblivion would be one of the only titles where the GF8600/8700M series would give the GFGO79xx series a run for the money.

Quote:
8series laptops are generally cheaper, and I am price conscious, as nick pointed out about long term value. So I am seriously considering the Toshiba X205 as it is the only laptop I know that uses the 8700M.
My main interest is oblivion and games like supcom, See my original post for my thoughts,


Supreme Commander is very CPU limited, so the difference in graphics shouldn't really be pronnounced until you reach the limits of the cards, so until you reach higher resolutions you'll be fine, but below 16x10 they'll be very similar. IMO you'd do very well with the X205, for those titles. In many other titles though the GF8700 will get beaten by a GFGO7900GTX and GFGO7950GTX, and play closer to a GFGO7900GS.
July 25, 2007 7:38:46 PM

Quick question, don't mean to change topic: But simply is the DELL XPS 1710 SLI compatible? Can it hold 2 x 7950Gtx's?
a b D Laptop
July 25, 2007 7:53:33 PM

nick2124 said:
Quick question, don't mean to change topic: But simply is the DELL XPS 1710 SLI compatible? Can it hold 2 x 7950Gtx's?


No, it has enough trouble cooling one from what I've heard. The only laptops that are Sli capable are the ones that let you choose a second card in the configurator. If there is no option for a second card it is most likely not able to accept another one due to size or heat restrictions.
July 25, 2007 9:53:27 PM

Quote:
However, keeping in mind that the GF8700M-GT specs are between those of the desktop GF8600GT and GF8600GTS (close to a GT XXX which runs at the same memory but 5mhz slower core), and that the GFGO7950GTX is just a bit better than the desktop GF7950GT and the GFGO7900GTX is bit worse


Really? I just looked at some 3dmark scores.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx... p;model2=710&chart=315

The 7950 GT scores in the 1800's which although is far ahead of other 7 series cards, and also ati 1800 series, it still lags far behind more high-end 8 series cards. The score of 1865 is nothing when compared to the 8800 GTX which has scores in the mid 3000's. (literally double the power of the 7950 GT.

So, if your saying a 7950 GTX (Laptop) is roughly the equivalent of a 7950GT (Desktop) (I'm assuming you know your facts, and that its true.) and the 8800 series (Desktop) is light years ahead of the 7950 GT/GTX (which I've just seen) - then would it be wise for someone who's considering purchasing a laptop soon to hold out until a 8800 card is out for laptops that is significantly faster than 7950GTX?

P.S
I'm very interested in knowing: What is the desktop equivalent of a 8600 GTS 512 meg ?
July 25, 2007 10:05:38 PM

Yes.. the 8800 series would be ahead of the 7950 series... but the 8600 isn't anything CLOSE to the 8800.

If you spend a little bit of time in the THG graphics card forums, you'll quickly see that the 8600 (and below) was a HUUUUGE disappointment in comparison to the 8800. The 8800 was the flagship for nVidia this past (almost year now), and the 8600 was supposed to be the mainstream. Similarly, the 2900xt was ATI's flagship, and the 2600 and below range was supposed to be ATI's midrange. However it was quickly determined that the "midranges" for both companies operate horribly, and in many cases, older generations (like the 7950 series) blow these "mid range" cards away.

That's why the 7900 mobile series is (in theory) much better than the 8600 series.
July 25, 2007 10:40:55 PM

It is... That link you posted Phrozt (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=39568) proves the superiority of 7950's. Even with all the 8 series cards (for laptops) out at the moment the 7950 GTX is still way ahead performance wise.

I've basically decided to buy a laptop that is 7950GTX SLI. Any suggestions which laptop model I should get? Clevo 900C looks like the best choice at the moment...
a b D Laptop
July 25, 2007 11:27:44 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that many companies take 1 version of a laptop and rebrand them. That Clevo that I told you about is used by many companies (killernotebooks, alienware, voodoo?, and a few others). Basically you are buying the same laptop just with someone else's name on it. Be careful who you buy from, I had a mediocre experience with Sagernotebook.com. Also keep in mind that the cards used in the 900C are MXM cards which means that they are upgradeable and Mark (K|N owner) has been told that the 7950's should be replaceable with the newer cards.

One thing to keep in mind with the 8800M and the INQ hit it on the head:
Quote:
these cuts will decrease 3D performance when compared to the desktop
. Will these cards be powerful? No doubt. Will they have the mind shattering power of the desktop ones? No, too much power needed and too much heat as a result. Never-the-less they will be excellent gaming cards.

Also, is anyone interested in seeing a Tom's user review of the Clevo M570u (aka the Sager NP5760)? If people are interested I wouldn't be adverse to writing one. I got my lappy last weak and am enjoying every minute of it.
July 25, 2007 11:38:03 PM

Quote:
Mark (K|N owner) has been told that the 7950's should be replaceable with the newer cards.


I'm really glad to hear that. Does that mean I can get a DELL XPS 1710, and say 6 months later I can upgrade the 7950 to an 8800?

Your Sager looks nice. How much was it L&W?
512 meg 7900 GTX is the best card out for lappies right now. What games do you play it on?

And, you say a lot of brands will take 1 version of a laptop and rebrand them, my question is who makes the originals? (like the clevo 900c - was sager the original creator?)
a b D Laptop
July 26, 2007 12:17:32 AM

nick2124 said:
"Mark (K|N owner) has been told that the 7950's should be replaceable with the newer cards."

I'm really glad to hear that. Does that mean I can get a DELL XPS 1710, and say 6 months later I can upgrade the 7950 to an 8800?

Your Sager looks nice. How much was it L&W?
512 meg 7900 GTX is the best card out for lappies right now. What games do you play it on?

And, you say a lot of brands will take 1 version of a laptop and rebrand them, my question is who makes the originals? (like the clevo 900c - was sager the original creator?)


In theory, yes you can upgrade it. I know the Inspiron cards are upgradeable so I see no reason why the XPS ones can't be. If you talk to Mark, he can probably replace it for you and usually he will only charge you the difference of the cards.

I paid 2300 for my NP5760. Core2 T7200, 2gigs DDR2-667, 100gb 7200rpm HDD, 512mb 7950GTX, 17'' WUXGA, DVD+RW, and a TV-tuner. The screen on this thing is absolutely gorgeous. All in all it was a MUCH better deal than the XPS. The same system from Dell was close to 3 grand. I play BF2142 and COD2. Both play extremely well. BF is at 1400x900(or something like that) with med-high settings and I get no lag. COD2 is at 1280x1024 with 2x AA and I get 70-80 avg. FPS. It's a beautiful thing.

Clevo and Sager are one in the same company I believe. It is hard to say because I think Clevo is the original manu, but I look at sites like xoticpc.com and they all say it's Sager. So I think they are the same thing.
July 26, 2007 1:14:01 AM

nick2124 said:

Really? I just looked at some 3dmark scores.


Don't bother, they are useless for what we're talking about here. 3Dmarks are for BestBuy shoppers and PR mongrels. Look at the specs, then look at the performance in games. 3Dmarks are only good for testing overclocks and stability within the same card.

Quote:
So, if your saying a 7950 GTX (Laptop) is roughly the equivalent of a 7950GT (Desktop) (I'm assuming you know your facts, and that its true.)


Look at the architecture and specs, to check for yourself. Keep in mind we're talking about mobile parts so they have different CPU, RAM and HDD limitations.

Quote:
and the 8800 series (Desktop) is light years ahead of the 7950 GT/GTX (which I've just seen) - then would it be wise for someone who's considering purchasing a laptop soon to hold out until a 8800 card is out for laptops that is significantly faster than 7950GTX?


Only if you think someone is going to magically get a 120-150W graphics card into a laptop version anytime soon. Even using 65nm (or heck even 55nm), anything with that many transistors and that kind of memory bandwidth is going to be power hungry. Expect something more along the lines of what the GF8800GS/HD2900Pro are expected to be in order to fit within the power/heat requirements of such a laptop. Even a desktop replacement qouls have to outfit itself with some wicked power regulation hardware and MoBo support to pull that off. We'll get to that level of performance, but not while the GF8800 series is still current.

Quote:
P.S
I'm very interested in knowing: What is the desktop equivalent of a 8600 GTS 512 meg ?


You mean what is the laptop equivalent of that part? It doesn't exist yet, but the GFGO7900GTX is likely closest in performance likely outperforming the GTS-512 more oftne than not, with the exceptions already noted, but of course with many other differences too like I mentioned with HDR+AA, HQ AF, PureVideo2, etc.
July 26, 2007 1:24:23 AM

nick2124 said:
It is... That link you posted Phrozt (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=39568) proves the superiority of 7950's. Even with all the 8 series cards (for laptops) out at the moment the 7950 GTX is still way ahead performance wise.


Except for the games the OP posted about, those would be the only areas where the gap is much smaller or reversed. And the feature set in Oblivion just compound that advantage for the GF8600/8700M, however like I said, in most other scenarios the GFGO79xx series should be the easy leader.

However getting SLi in your case, means little will get close to it for now.

Quote:
An article I just found where NVIDIA talks about their ambitions to bring 8800 to laptops.


Yeah, and from that, I'd love someone to explain to me how they're going to fit anything even remotely resembling ANY currently shipping GF8800 into a laptop and have it only draw 22W? Like I said I suspect it to be closer to what we're thinking the GF8800GS to be, something 48-64 shader units and 256bit. Which will still be nice, but nowehere near even the GF8800GTS-320.
July 26, 2007 1:28:40 AM

Thanks LostAndWondering. Sounds nice.

Putting aside the price tag, do you feel your laptop is superior to the Dell 7950GTX? If so, how?

And is your lappy the equivalent of a clevo 570?

July 26, 2007 1:33:57 AM

Thanks GreatApe. You know your stuff.
a b D Laptop
July 26, 2007 2:03:28 AM

nick2124 said:
Thanks LostAndWondering. Sounds nice.

Putting aside the price tag, do you feel your laptop is superior to the Dell 7950GTX? If so, how?

And is your lappy the equivalent of a clevo 570?


My laptop is exactly the same as the Clevo 570u just under the Sager name.

To be honest, I think the XPS m1710 is bulky and ugly. I don't like the black and the red is too expensive. The 570 just looks so much more streamlined than the XPS. I think the base configuration was better than the Dell's but again that goes back to price. I have also heard that Dell underclocks the 7950 to avoid heat problems. I do not have conformation of that so don't take me for my word on that. Dell also has some issues with their LCD screens and light leak. From what I can tell I hardly have any leak at all. One thing to keep in mind is that the 570u no longer comes with the 7950. It has been replaced by the 570ru. The 570ru is black with orange trim and lacks the media controls that mine has (this model has the 7950 so no worries there).
http://www.clevo.com.tw/products/M570RU.asp
http://www.killernotebooks.com/executioner_sr/executioner_sr_gallery.html

K|N version of the 570ru
July 26, 2007 2:19:02 AM

Can anyone list the laptops that are 7950 GTX SLI?
July 26, 2007 4:16:18 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
IT's not DX10, Oblivion is DX9. The only feature advantages the GF8 has over the GF7 would be the ability to run with HDR+AA and also the ability to use penalty free Higher quality AF. However the unified shader design with better branching than the previous generation seems to play very well with Oblivion switching easily from heavy pixel to heavy vertex loads. Oblivion is one of the only games that the GF86xx series design outperforms the GF79xx and even X19xx series, along with Stalker.

That's why I say that Oblivion would be one of the only titles where the GF8600/8700M series would give the GFGO79xx series a run for the money..


Thanks APE!, I dont know why those websites/articles never appeared in my previous searches. I checked out all those articles and slogged my way through some of the techie stuff that I will never have the patience to fully understand, ,,, and I have formed the following opinion...

The GF8600/8700 series may not "win" against the GF79xx series against the other games, but neither do they really "fail" MOST of the FPS differences seem too small to really be noticable, but hey, I dont really have a firm number for what constitutes good, as the one article says, it depends on the game (I am thinking at least 30 should appear to play fairly smooth.) Furthermore, The 8series have the future utility of future games, which will more fully utilize them.

I do, however, have a couple of other questions that occured to me.
Is it possible (and relatively simple) to change the RAID of the two identical toshiba x205 HDs to RAID 0 to increase their 5400 RPM performance?
Is it possible (and relatively simple/safe) to use nTune to overclock a laptop with no prior experience? I know TH goes over overclocking a bit.
What would you say is a comfortable FPS threshold for fast paced games that are popular right now? Is it comparable to monitor refresh rates?
I have been told that because of Vista's increase in bits (32/64 - vice - 16? for XP) eats up much more RAM. and that games actually perform worse on Vista systems, and that the best performance would occur on an XP system with the graphics driver running DX9, penny for your thoughts?

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Supreme Commander is very CPU limited, so the difference in graphics shouldn't really be pronnounced until you reach the limits of the cards, so until you reach higher resolutions you'll be fine, but below 16x10 they'll be very similar. IMO you'd do very well with the X205, for those titles. In many other titles though the GF8700 will get beaten by a GFGO7900GTX and GFGO7950GTX, and play closer to a GFGO7900GS.


I have read that SupCom is extremely CPU intensive and hardly utilizes the GPU at all. so maybe the GPU is not as important for this game as it is for others.

July 26, 2007 4:38:23 AM

IF you can, avoid Vista at all costs.

I used Vista Home, it was awful.

I ran multiple benchmarks on XP testing both video card and cpu.

I install Vista, along with latest drivers, dx10 etc.

I do some benchmarks... and I scored an overall of 30% LOWER with Vista than I did with XP.

I did a complete system test (which tested at every peice of hardware) with Vista, scored 1700 - same hardware but with XP I scored 2300.

In regards to my video card, with AquaMark I scored 11,000 on XP, and a pitiful 7000 on Vista. And aquamark is a DX9 program. Perhaps the version of DX10 I was using wasn't very good for DX9 applications.

So yes... XP handles games a lot better. :)  (from my own experience)
July 26, 2007 5:48:35 AM

jetpilot79 said:

The GF8600/8700 series may not "win" against the GF79xx series against the other games, but neither do they really "fail" MOST of the FPS differences seem too small to really be noticable, but hey, I dont really have a firm number for what constitutes good, as the one article says, it depends on the game (I am thinking at least 30 should appear to play fairly smooth.) Furthermore, The 8series have the future utility of future games, which will more fully utilize them.
...
What would you say is a comfortable FPS threshold for fast paced games that are popular right now? Is it comparable to monitor refresh rates?


Yes the GF8700M-GT should be quite 'useable'. As for fps there are two styles that matter most to this.
FPS, or twitch shooters (like UT2K4, Quake4, FarCry, etc) where quick turns and quick firefights matter alot between being dead or not and thus fun or not. The there's RTSs and creeper games like SplinterCell where it's not about speed but about planning and ploding through things delibarately and having lots of detail. Then there's games like Oblivion that are IMO in the middle, where a bit of speed is handy, but it's mainly fluidity you need not twitch battling (usually I'm swaping in the console and such then back to casting/slashing/etc and back again). 15-20 fps is fine for the RTS or Creeper. 30-40 fps is fins for a game like Oblivion, and then 40-60+ is preferable for twitch FPS games, especially if playing against human opponents, because then you're doing stressful things to fluidity and targeting like jump-fragging, and 180deg turn & shoot moves. So you really need to consider where those games fit into your plans and whether you think you can achieve those requirements for yourself.

Quote:
I do, however, have a couple of other questions that occured to me.
Is it possible (and relatively simple) to change the RAID of the two identical toshiba x205 HDs to RAID 0 to increase their 5400 RPM performance?


I'm not certain, but I would say yes, however for gaming HDD speed is really only important for transition loading, not really helping avg fps.

Quote:
Is it possible (and relatively simple/safe) to use nTune to overclock a laptop with no prior experience? I know TH goes over overclocking a bit.


Yes pretty simple. I haven't not (sorry for the double negative) overclocked my laptops since my last NeoMagic Thinkpad. It's pretty easy on both nV and ATi soluitions to use tools like CoolBits and AtiTool. I OC my MobilityRadeon X700 from 350/335(670) to 400/415(830) in order to let me play UT2K4 at best framerates and Oblivion at larger resolution with more grass/features than I would at stock. It get noticeably warmer (like 5-10C) in the exhaust, but it'll do a 4+hr session no problem. Main thing is to take it extremely slow when testing the limits at first, do it in a cool room, not the height of summer. And be ready to turn off any OCing immediately if you experience instability/artifacting. Also consider what it does to your thermal load. My laptop will do 415/450 but I found it noticeably warmer.

Quote:
I have been told that because of Vista's increase in bits (32/64 - vice - 16? for XP) eats up much more RAM. and that games actually perform worse on Vista systems, and that the best performance would occur on an XP system with the graphics driver running DX9, penny for your thoughts?


That's not always the case, and it is game specific and even company specific too. AMD/ATI experienced less of a drop gaming in Vista than nV (except in OGL). And Some games are better than other and worse than others. It has nothing to do with the bit version and there's 32/64 of both XP and Vista. IMO, buy a laptop with Vista 64bit, but if you have XP-32bit or can afford a copy, then blow out the pre-install and install XP32 bit, until you need Vista (for DX10 games or games like Halo2 PC) , or until you feel it's better (maybe after more driver support or SP1?). Vista's OK, but for gaming usually XP is the way to go especially since the overhead of Vista is pretty bad compared to XP, and basically XP should have 2GB for gaming and Vista should have 4GB from most benchies. So IMO for the best gaming experience right now, go for XP in most situations, unless you know for sure that the game does better in Vista.

Quote:
I have read that SupCom is extremely CPU intensive and hardly utilizes the GPU at all. so maybe the GPU is not as important for this game as it is for others.


Yeah if you look at the benchmarks it's not a big a deal as it is in other games. The difference is very minor, and medium resolutions there's little difference, it takes cranking resolution or AA to start to make a noticeable diffference.

PS, I missed this at work, but the laptop I've been waiting for a new contender for you to consider (or maybe not) that I am just trying to spec out for myself so I get a price from my contact at work, the HP DRAGON HDX is finally on sale;
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/series_can.do?storeName=computer_store&landing=notebooks&a1=Usage&v1=Extreme%20Multimedia

:sol:  :bounce:  :sol: 

Nice quickie review here;
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3850
July 26, 2007 8:34:36 AM

Could anybody tell me where I can get a 7200rpm hardrive for the new ASUS G2S. I bought it and would like to boost my performance. This is where I got it. There is a cool review on there with lots of pictures too.

http://www.lazercoms.be/winkel/product_info.php?cPath=9...

I'm pretty impressed with the grafics when playing games like STALKER, BF2 and EVE but the starting times of the laptop and loading times of the games are awfull. I get the impression everytime it needs info from the HDD it takes forever. (wish raid 0 on laptops were possible)

I looked around but got the impression the 7200rpm notebook hardrives are pretty rare. The only thing I found was a site that said it was in the making. Just a note... I'm looking for one available in europe.
July 26, 2007 10:16:08 AM

What hard drive are you using? Is it SATA?

Also, RAM could be slowing you down. Infact, a million things could be responcible for sluggish performance in a laptop, what makes u think its the hard drive?
July 26, 2007 2:02:26 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
199922,35,288977 said:

Quote:
I do, however, have a couple of other questions that occured to me.
Is it possible (and relatively simple) to change the RAID of the two identical toshiba x205 HDs to RAID 0 to increase their 5400 RPM performance?


I'm not certain, but I would say yes, however for gaming HDD speed is really only important for transition loading, not really helping avg fps.
said:

Could you direct me to a good website for changing RAID config to 0 on laptops, Im having trouble finding.


TheGreatGrapeApe said:
That's not always the case, and it is game specific and even company specific too. AMD/ATI experienced less of a drop gaming in Vista than nV (except in OGL). And Some games are better than other and worse than others. It has nothing to do with the bit version and there's 32/64 of both XP and Vista. IMO, buy a laptop with Vista 64bit, but if you have XP-32bit or can afford a copy, then blow out the pre-install and install XP32 bit, until you need Vista (for DX10 games or games like Halo2 PC) , or until you feel it's better (maybe after more driver support or SP1?). Vista's OK, but for gaming usually XP is the way to go especially since the overhead of Vista is pretty bad compared to XP, and basically XP should have 2GB for gaming and Vista should have 4GB from most benchies. So IMO for the best gaming experience right now, go for XP in most situations, unless you know for sure that the game does better in Vista.

People screamed about XP when it first came out too. SO, I get the impression that when new software ships, they have to see the problems that occur on the multitude of different systems in order to isolate a fix for the issues at hand. Im sure that Vista will come into its own, or just be completely replaced like ME, which was definately crap...


TheGreatGrapeApe said:
PS, I missed this at work, but the laptop I've been waiting for a new contender for you to consider (or maybe not) that I am just trying to spec out for myself so I get a price from my contact at work, the HP DRAGON HDX is finally on sale;
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/series_can.do?storeName=computer_store&landing=notebooks&a1=Usage&v1=Extreme%20Multimedia

:sol:  :bounce:  :sol: 

Nice quickie review here;
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3850

This laptop looks real nice, but it is too BIG for all my travels... I wouldnt want to lug this thing around the flightdeck, and multitude of hotels I find myself in... My confidence in the X205 is soaring though and I own and really like Toshiba laptops, so I am waiting for Chaz to post his X205 review on notebook review.com this week.
here is a good link for the preview
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3836


Thanks again APE! You are a consistently helpful person, as I have seen on other posts too. Do you ever have time to play games, or do you spend all of your time answering our questions. :D 
a b D Laptop
July 26, 2007 3:32:10 PM

IceFluffy said:
Could anybody tell me where I can get a 7200rpm hardrive for the new ASUS G2S. I bought it and would like to boost my performance. This is where I got it. There is a cool review on there with lots of pictures too.

http://www.lazercoms.be/winkel/product_info.php?cPath=9...

I'm pretty impressed with the grafics when playing games like STALKER, BF2 and EVE but the starting times of the laptop and loading times of the games are awfull. I get the impression everytime it needs info from the HDD it takes forever. (wish raid 0 on laptops were possible)

I looked around but got the impression the 7200rpm notebook hardrives are pretty rare. The only thing I found was a site that said it was in the making. Just a note... I'm looking for one available in europe.


Can you purchase from the UK? I'm having trouble finding tech site in Europe. I found 2 on scan.co.uk, but I don't know if it'll be of any use to you. If these don't work, please list some other tech sites in Europe and I'll help you search.

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=601813
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=421991
July 27, 2007 4:07:16 AM

jetpilot79 said:
Could you direct me to a good website for changing RAID config to 0 on laptops, Im having trouble finding.


Well it would depend on the BIOS. For that you'd also have to blow out the original install and re-install the OS. Some ship in RAID-0, but you'll have to check the BIOS support, and there may be instruction in the User Manual.

Quote:
Do you ever have time to play games, or do you spend all of your time answering our questions. :D 


Sure, but I'm usually in here while doing something else, work, or like right now I'm eating and watching the news followed by Daily Show (aka the Real News :whistle:  ).
July 27, 2007 7:02:17 AM

Is there any REAL difference in gaming performance with 512 7900 GTX versus 512 7950 GTX?
!