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Magnaplanar MG 3.3 Imaging Problems.

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble
spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that
side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone
speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but
a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound
quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image
anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have
tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a
characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying
.....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead
centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off
center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the
speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all
the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about
a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and
closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons
inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative
suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least
attempt to image?
Thanks Guys n Gals

Add a reply

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off
the rear wall.

Kal

On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:

>Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
>at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble
>spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that
>side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone
>speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but
>a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound
>quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image
>anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have
>tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a
>characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying
>....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead
>centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off
>center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the
>speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all
>the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about
>a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and
>closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons
>inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative
>suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least
>attempt to image?
>Thanks Guys n Gals

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:

>Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
>at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble
>spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that
>side..especially on male vocal center stage.

In my experience, this is a feature of all *reall* good imaging
speakers. Think about the physics involved, and you'll see that the
bisector is the *only* place where you can maintain correct phase
relationships at all frequencies.

> I have had various cone
>speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but
>a few and they just don't do this.

That's because they don't image accurately *anywhere*. Try it with say
KEF Q1s, and you'll notice a big difference.

> The actual tonal balance and sound
>quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image
>anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling.

As with ultra-sharp camera lenses, any movement away from the plane of
focus is very obvious. With soft-focus lenses, however..............

> I have
>tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a
>characteristic of these speakers?

Yes, and of all other large line-source planars (I have Apogee Duetta
Signatures)

>, and yes I did listen before buying
>....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead
>centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off
>center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the
>speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all
>the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about
>a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and
>closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons
>inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative
>suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least
>attempt to image?

Try placing them touching the back wall at a 45 degree angle, with the
tweeters on the outside edges. This works very well for me, makes the
speakers much less obtrusive, and evens up the far-field bass. See my
page on http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/ for an illustration.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>
> What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
> their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off
> the rear wall.
>
> Kal

Hi Kal.
The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper
covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but
this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When
sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre.
>
> On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:
>
> >Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
> >at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble
> >spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that
> >side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone
> >speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but
> >a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound
> >quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image
> >anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have
> >tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a
> >characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying
> >....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead
> >centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off
> >center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the
> >speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all
> >the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about
> >a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and
> >closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons
> >inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative
> >suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least
> >attempt to image?
> >Thanks Guys n Gals

Reply to steve

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Steve wrote:
> Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
> at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble
> spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that
> side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone
> speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but
> a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound
> quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image
> anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have
> tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a
> characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying
> ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead
> centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off
> center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the
> speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all
> the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about
> a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and
> closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons
> inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative
> suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least
> attempt to image?
> Thanks Guys n Gals

This will happen if the environs around them are too dead or if you find
yourself in the radiation pattern of the nearer speaker much stronger
than the other.

On the first problem, you should not have a lot of sound killing
materials on the walls around the speakers. In an extreme case, the
precedence effect will cause all of the imaging to be from the nearer
speaker. You decrease this problem somewhat if you can decrease the
ratio of direct sound from the speaker.

On the second problem, you can toe in the speakers toward the center, so
that you are more in the direct pattern of the farther speaker and less
in the pattern of the nearer speaker when you go off-center.

Place the speakers well away from the front and side walls, ideally at a
spot that is 1/4 of the room width out from the front wall and in from
the side walls. For example, in a 16 ft wide room, place them 4 ft out
and 4 ft from the side walls, which would be 8 ft apart. Toe them in to
make a mono source image stay put in the center as you walk across, and
you should have it.

I know these speakers should image well, and I also know you are
probably going crazy because there are so many variables in setting up
speakers it's hard to know where to start. I hope my suggestions will
help. Start there, and then branch out to experiment.

Gary Eickmeier

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

That is the classic scenario for planar speakers and is why I don't
care for them. The better ones sound nice as long as you are seated
and in the sweet spot laterally, but then they just make for a smooth
sounding mono system at other locations. At least the larger types can
deliver some bass and dynamics. A nice pair of dynamic speakers will
cure that to a large degree. Dispersion is the term used to describe
the radiation pattern of the speakers and planar speakers have a very
narrow horizontal dispersion pattern, so much so that the effect you
describe is called "beaming" by many. Another limitation of them is
often available power.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Steve" <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote in message
news:csbg3703hg@news3.newsguy.com...
> Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> >
> > What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
> > their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you
off
> > the rear wall.
> >
> > Kal
>
> Hi Kal.
> The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper
> covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall
but
> this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all.
When
> sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute
centre.
> >
> > On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:
> >
> > >Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image
solidly
> > >at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a
bubble
> > >spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews
to that
> > >side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various
cone
> > >speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to
name but
> > >a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and
sound
> > >quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid
image
> > >anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling.
I have
> > >tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this
a
> > >characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before
buying
> > >....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat
dead
> > >centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen
off
> > >center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into
the
> > >speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase
and all
> > >the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I
checked about
> > >a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving
away and
> > >closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter
ribbons
> > >inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative
> > >suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least
> > >attempt to image?
> > >Thanks Guys n Gals

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Uptown Audio wrote:

> That is the classic scenario for planar speakers and is why I don't
> care for them. The better ones sound nice as long as you are seated
> and in the sweet spot laterally, but then they just make for a smooth
> sounding mono system at other locations.

One way to fix this is to orient them sideways, but that
only works if it is a single panel design. Magnepan's
little $350 speakers are like this.

Or, get one that is curved a bit.

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 15 Jan 2005 16:24:07 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:

>Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>>
>> What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
>> their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off
>> the rear wall.
>>
>> Kal
>
>Hi Kal.
>The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper
>covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but
>this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When
>sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre.

As Outsor has suggested, you should try experimenting with diffusion
materials (not absorption) behind/between the Maggies. The price of
widening the sweet spot might, however, be less specificity in the
middle.

Kal

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Kalman Rubinson kr4@nyu.edu wrote:
>On 15 Jan 2005 16:24:07 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:
>
>>Kalman Rubinson wrote:
>>>
>>> What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
>>> their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off
>>> the rear wall.
>>>
>>> Kal
>>
>>Hi Kal.
>>The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper
>>covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but
>>this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When
>>sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre.
>
>As Outsor has suggested, you should try experimenting with diffusion
>materials (not absorption) behind/between the Maggies. The price of
>widening the sweet spot might, however, be less specificity in the
>middle.
>
>Kal

Why not simply just stop reliance on 2-channel sound and do the right thing
...... use a center channel speaker?

Reply to Anonymous

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Nousaine wrote:
>
> Kalman Rubinson kr4@nyu.edu wrote:
> >On 15 Jan 2005 16:24:07 GMT, Steve <sf.ksl@pt.lu> wrote:
> >
> >>Kalman Rubinson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
> >>> their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off
> >>> the rear wall.
> >>>
> >>> Kal
> >>
> >>Hi Kal.
> >>The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper
> >>covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but
> >>this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When
> >>sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre.
> >
> >As Outsor has suggested, you should try experimenting with diffusion
> >materials (not absorption) behind/between the Maggies. The price of
> >widening the sweet spot might, however, be less specificity in the
> >middle.
> >
> >Kal
>
> Why not simply just stop reliance on 2-channel sound and do the right thing
> ..... use a center channel speaker?

I had considered just that but how do I resolve the center channel
information from a purly stereo source?

Reply to steve

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