What's the deal?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 2005-01-19 19:53:43 -0500, "Michael McKelvy" <deskst49@peoplepc.com> said:

> Unbeknownst to me my wife subscribed me to Stereophile and I got my
> first issue yesterday.
>
> What I can't figure out is how can so many of their reviews of
> speakers, praise so many speakers that have sizeable bass humps.
>
> Case in point, the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage. According to SP's
> measurements there is considerable elevation in the bass response
> beginning at about 300 Hz and continuing until it falls back to the
> reference at about 30 Hz.

While it is possible and likely that the speakers are in a room that is
emphsizing the bass (room modes) in that frequency range, it is also
possible that the speaker vendor pumped up the bass to make it "sound
better."

I hope that it is an improper acoustics problem, myself.

>
> Are the speakers not measured in the room that the reviewer has them set up in?

Very possible - and likely. Especially if *every* speaker has the same
"problem."

>
> Are their measurements done badly?

If the room modes are not accounted for or mentioned - the analysis
isn't quite up to snuff, even if the measurements are performed
correctly physically.

>
> Or do their reviewers just like over accentuated bass response.

Possible

>
> Clearly there are speakers they have reviewed that are much flatter, if
> not as pretty, such as the Merlin VSM, or the Hales Revelation 3, both
> of which also received favorable reviews.

Thiel has a ruler flat response from the LF cutoff to about 20-22kHz.
I don't recall a review in 'phile - but I suspect that if that same
reviewer reviewed them, you might just see that hump!

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Michael McKelvy wrote:
> Unbeknownst to me my wife subscribed me to Stereophile and I got my
first
> issue yesterday.
>
> What I can't figure out is how can so many of their reviews of
speakers,
> praise so many speakers that have sizeable bass humps.
>
> Case in point, the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage. According to SP's
> measurements there is considerable elevation in the bass response
beginning
> at about 300 Hz and continuing until it falls back to the reference
at about
> 30 Hz.
>
> Are the speakers not measured in the room that the reviewer has them
set up
> in?

Not as I understand it. Review and measurements are done by different
people in different places.
>
> Are their measurements done badly?

No. They're the best thing in the magazine.
>
> Or do their reviewers just like over accentuated bass response.

Reviewers tend to like everything, as long as it shows up free in their
living room.
>
> Clearly there are speakers they have reviewed that are much flatter,
if not
> as pretty, such as the Merlin VSM, or the Hales Revelation 3, both of
which
> also received favorable reviews.

A while ago, somebody posted a link to research by Sean Olive on
training subjects for listening panels. It takes a lot of work to learn
how to recognize frequency response anomalies, and even with training a
lot of people aren't very good at it. I'd bet money there isn't a
single reviewer at Stereophile (or any other audio magazine, for that
matter) with that kind of training. People think you can just go to
lots of concerts and listen to lots of systems, and that makes you an
expert. Far from it.

But reviewers have to feign this expertise (and probably kid themselves
in the process) because their readers demand it. And readers demand it
because they want to believe that they have this ability too, or at
least are in the process of developing it.

bob

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Aldo Pignotti" <aldopignotti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cspj2901pl0@news4.newsguy.com...
> "Stereophile" has mentioned this often in articles and people have
> frequently raised this point in letters. The bottom line is that
> "Stereophile" reviewers (and others) frequently give rave reviews to
> speakers that aren't especially accurate. I think they keep the
> measurements in the articles as a data point. Another report that is
> very interesting is the rating that "Consumer Reports" does. "Consumer
> Reports" rates mid and low price speakers strictly by accuracy. Last
> year, I had just gone around to several shops and had listened to many
> of the speakers they tested. My preferences were almost exactly
> opposite their ratings.

I don't have any problem with people who don't like strictly accurate
speakers, I just don't understand why you would want something that isn't
accurate.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

<nabob33@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cspiv301pfp@news4.newsguy.com...
> Michael McKelvy wrote:
>> Unbeknownst to me my wife subscribed me to Stereophile and I got my
> first
>> issue yesterday.
>>
>> What I can't figure out is how can so many of their reviews of
> speakers,
>> praise so many speakers that have sizeable bass humps.
>>
>> Case in point, the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage. According to SP's
>> measurements there is considerable elevation in the bass response
> beginning
>> at about 300 Hz and continuing until it falls back to the reference
> at about
>> 30 Hz.
>>
>> Are the speakers not measured in the room that the reviewer has them
> set up
>> in?
>
> Not as I understand it. Review and measurements are done by different
> people in different places.
>>
>> Are their measurements done badly?
>

> No. They're the best thing in the magazine.
>>

In the same issue there's an article about doing bass meansurements, the
author only learned about ground plane measurements last Spring!

>> Or do their reviewers just like over accentuated bass response.
>
> Reviewers tend to like everything, as long as it shows up free in their
> living room.
>>
>> Clearly there are speakers they have reviewed that are much flatter,
> if not
>> as pretty, such as the Merlin VSM, or the Hales Revelation 3, both of
> which
>> also received favorable reviews.
>
> A while ago, somebody posted a link to research by Sean Olive on
> training subjects for listening panels. It takes a lot of work to learn
> how to recognize frequency response anomalies, and even with training a
> lot of people aren't very good at it.

I've seen reviews of kits in Speaker Builder and it's present incarnation
audioXpress where a bass response like those in Stereophile would get the
speaker slammed, precisely because it was audible to the reviewer.

I'd bet money there isn't a
> single reviewer at Stereophile (or any other audio magazine, for that
> matter) with that kind of training. People think you can just go to
> lots of concerts and listen to lots of systems, and that makes you an
> expert. Far from it.
>
> But reviewers have to feign this expertise (and probably kid themselves
> in the process) because their readers demand it. And readers demand it
> because they want to believe that they have this ability too, or at
> least are in the process of developing it.
>
> bob

They need better people.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Michael McKelvy <deskst49@peoplepc.com> wrote:

> I just don't understand why you would want something that isn't
> accurate.

Personal preference and matching to the music/ recordings they listen to.

Since all speakers are <far> from perfect, There is a LOT of leeway in
choosing what is important to each listeners personal taste.

I prefer a neutral/accurate sound, but the most neutral speakers around
(and there are a 'family' of them) all have flaws/characterisitcs that make
them sound different.

I don't understand why that is difficult to understand.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Michael McKelvy <deskst49@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> I can't get the idea out of my head that it's called Hi-Fi. I understand
> there are no "perfect" speakers, but IME the ones that always sounded best
> were the ones that were more accurate. No big bumps in FR, wide,
> soundstage, and lowest distortion.

A <long> time ago, used to think (hope?) that the public would get educated
and that speaker makers would learn to get these midbass peaks and humps out
of their systems. Some have, but in general, the public seems to like
thump-thump more than ever and manufactuers have catered to it more than ever.
The best example is when ever a car passes by where all you hear is thump-thump
and no music whatsoever. And as amplifier power has gotten cheaper, they play
them louder, causing hearing damage and the cycle gets worse. So, I have
concluded that it's mostly hopeless educating and I just do my thing.


> I also have a nagging suspicion that many of the speakers SP shows with
> those bass humps are probably being measured improperly. Typical speakers
> in a typical room would have dips where these are showing bumps.

You can't be sure of that without evaluating how each system behaves. I don't
think SP has a full size anechoic chamber where one can figure these things out
to to the level of exhaustion with current technology. For example, my speakers
have wildly differing peaks and humps in the bass when comparing the channels
with a Tact RCS. It's the room: To be sure, I flipped the speakers from the
channels and it was the same. Others looking for solutions to these problems
encounter the same thing. Rooms are big distorters for reproduced music and
it is perhaps where the most improvement could be made for any given system.
And there is no perfect solution. Listening to headphones is frustrating for
different reasons.