Soundlab R1 disposition opinion

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Hey all, hope this isn't off the charter for the group that much.

Was sort of looking for an opinion/comments if you were stuck in my shoes
and course of action to take.

I have a pair of Soundlab R1's, with the bass cabinets. Owned them since
around 1983. Probably the best I've owned, but that isn't saying all that
much if you knew what else I've picked up through the years.

The thing is, I haven't used them at all in the past 5 years or so, they
have been in storage. Reason they are there, at least one of the brain boxes
is bad again. Those boxes are basically the electronics for the panel, where
the amp hooks up to and the ac for the power.

I guess it's a transformer inside that fails, the panels still power up but
the audio is slightly distorted. Soundlab can still fix these (but no longer
the panels according to Roger West). I imagine with inflation it's more but
last time I sent them in, it ran about $250 each, plus shipping. They (he)
recommended both boxes go in for rebuilding, to make sure they match.

But here is my query, I'm not all that interested in using them anymore.

I don't think they really fall into the area of being junk either. After
thinking about it for the past few months on and off, the choices seem to
be...

1) table saw them and bid a fond farewell to the trash
2) give them away "as is"
3) sell them "as is"
4) get them repaired, clean them up and try to get best dollar for them

The way I see it, both option 3 and 4 have a problem. I'm not so sure the
speakers have any value anymore. Even though I'm in a large metro area
(Chicago), it seems like it would be an uphill battle to find anyone to even
pay a nominal price these days. If they were repaired, you would need to get
$500-$600 just to break even.

Like I said earlier, I don't consider them junk so chopping them up or just
plain giving them away seems distasteful to me. But #2 and #3 seem the most
logically to me, especially since they have been collecting dust for half a
decade already.

The opinions/comments would be on #4. Would trying to sell them, repaired or
not have any merit? Even if I just shot for a break-even solution, does
something this old (but kind of unique) have any value in the $500-$600
range?

Randomly checking ebay hasn't been that much help, Soundlab shows up once in
a while, never seen an R1 listed though.

Keep in mind with all of this, shipping them would probably be in the same
range pricewise as getting them repaired. These are curved panels and those
bass cabinets they sit on are fairly heavy themselves. Crates would have to
be made custom. I bring that up because although it's possible some rich
Asian might see a collectors value to owning them, I also could hit the
lottery and start looking at A1's.

thanks,

-bruce
bje@ripco.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"Bruce Esquibel" <bje@e4500.ripco.com> wrote in message
news:d6tqg101pca@news2.newsguy.com...
> Hey all, hope this isn't off the charter for the group that much.
>
> Was sort of looking for an opinion/comments if you were stuck in my shoes
> and course of action to take.
>
> I have a pair of Soundlab R1's, with the bass cabinets. Owned them since
> around 1983. Probably the best I've owned, but that isn't saying all that
> much if you knew what else I've picked up through the years.
>
> The thing is, I haven't used them at all in the past 5 years or so, they
> have been in storage. Reason they are there, at least one of the brain
boxes
> is bad again. Those boxes are basically the electronics for the panel,
where
> the amp hooks up to and the ac for the power.
>
> I guess it's a transformer inside that fails, the panels still power up
but
> the audio is slightly distorted. Soundlab can still fix these (but no
longer
> the panels according to Roger West). I imagine with inflation it's more
but
> last time I sent them in, it ran about $250 each, plus shipping. They (he)
> recommended both boxes go in for rebuilding, to make sure they match.
>
> But here is my query, I'm not all that interested in using them anymore.
>
> I don't think they really fall into the area of being junk either. After
> thinking about it for the past few months on and off, the choices seem to
> be...
>
> 1) table saw them and bid a fond farewell to the trash
> 2) give them away "as is"
> 3) sell them "as is"
> 4) get them repaired, clean them up and try to get best dollar for them
>
> The way I see it, both option 3 and 4 have a problem. I'm not so sure the
> speakers have any value anymore. Even though I'm in a large metro area
> (Chicago), it seems like it would be an uphill battle to find anyone to
even
> pay a nominal price these days. If they were repaired, you would need to
get
> $500-$600 just to break even.
>
> Like I said earlier, I don't consider them junk so chopping them up or
just
> plain giving them away seems distasteful to me. But #2 and #3 seem the
most
> logically to me, especially since they have been collecting dust for half
a
> decade already.
>
> The opinions/comments would be on #4. Would trying to sell them, repaired
or
> not have any merit? Even if I just shot for a break-even solution, does
> something this old (but kind of unique) have any value in the $500-$600
> range?
>
> Randomly checking ebay hasn't been that much help, Soundlab shows up once
in
> a while, never seen an R1 listed though.
>
> Keep in mind with all of this, shipping them would probably be in the same
> range pricewise as getting them repaired. These are curved panels and
those
> bass cabinets they sit on are fairly heavy themselves. Crates would have
to
> be made custom. I bring that up because although it's possible some rich
> Asian might see a collectors value to owning them, I also could hit the
> lottery and start looking at A1's.
>

My recollection was that they were pretty darn good speakers. You say you
are not much interested in them anymore. If they are still the best
speakers you've ever had, why not?

From you description, my guess would be capacitors are gone, not the
transformer. Any really competent repair guy or hobbyist EE could probably
troubleshoot and repair the power supply right there in Chicago, and for
less than $500. If I'm right (and that's obviously only an "if") then you'd
have a perfectly fine set of speakers..."probably the best I've owned." Of
course, that assumes you still have something to drive them with. And that
you still have an interest in music. If not the latter, then i think option
number three is best...put them up, describe the situation accurately, make
them "pick up only". My guess is you'll find somebody between the Quad
Cities and Milwaukee willing to pay something for them.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Bruce Esquibel wrote:
> Hey all, hope this isn't off the charter for the group that much.
>
> Was sort of looking for an opinion/comments if you were stuck in my
shoes
> and course of action to take.
>
> I have a pair of Soundlab R1's, with the bass cabinets. Owned them
since
> around 1983. Probably the best I've owned, but that isn't saying all
that
> much if you knew what else I've picked up through the years.
>
> The thing is, I haven't used them at all in the past 5 years or so,
they
> have been in storage. Reason they are there, at least one of the
brain boxes
> is bad again. Those boxes are basically the electronics for the
panel, where
> the amp hooks up to and the ac for the power.
>
> I guess it's a transformer inside that fails, the panels still power
up but
> the audio is slightly distorted. Soundlab can still fix these (but no
longer
> the panels according to Roger West). I imagine with inflation it's
more but
> last time I sent them in, it ran about $250 each, plus shipping. They
(he)
> recommended both boxes go in for rebuilding, to make sure they match.
>
> But here is my query, I'm not all that interested in using them
anymore.
>
> I don't think they really fall into the area of being junk either.
After
> thinking about it for the past few months on and off, the choices
seem to
> be...
>
> 1) table saw them and bid a fond farewell to the trash
> 2) give them away "as is"
> 3) sell them "as is"
> 4) get them repaired, clean them up and try to get best dollar for
them
>
> The way I see it, both option 3 and 4 have a problem. I'm not so sure
the
> speakers have any value anymore. Even though I'm in a large metro
area
> (Chicago), it seems like it would be an uphill battle to find anyone
to even
> pay a nominal price these days. If they were repaired, you would need
to get
> $500-$600 just to break even.
>
> Like I said earlier, I don't consider them junk so chopping them up
or just
> plain giving them away seems distasteful to me. But #2 and #3 seem
the most
> logically to me, especially since they have been collecting dust for
half a
> decade already.
>
> The opinions/comments would be on #4. Would trying to sell them,
repaired or
> not have any merit? Even if I just shot for a break-even solution,
does
> something this old (but kind of unique) have any value in the
$500-$600
> range?
>
> Randomly checking ebay hasn't been that much help, Soundlab shows up
once in
> a while, never seen an R1 listed though.
>
> Keep in mind with all of this, shipping them would probably be in the
same
> range pricewise as getting them repaired. These are curved panels and
those
> bass cabinets they sit on are fairly heavy themselves. Crates would
have to
> be made custom. I bring that up because although it's possible some
rich
> Asian might see a collectors value to owning them, I also could hit
the
> lottery and start looking at A1's.
>
> thanks,
>
> -bruce
> bje@ripco.com

I'm sure there is a basic blue book value for the speakers. Maybe Roger
West would know. I'd suggest finding that value then subtract the cost
of repair and shipping both ways and start there as an asking price.




Scott Wheeler

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Bruce Esquibel wrote:

> I don't think they really fall into the area of being junk either. After
> thinking about it for the past few months on and off, the choices seem to
> be...
>
> 1) table saw them and bid a fond farewell to the trash
> 2) give them away "as is"
> 3) sell them "as is"
> 4) get them repaired, clean them up and try to get best dollar for them
>
> The way I see it, both option 3 and 4 have a problem. I'm not so sure the
> speakers have any value anymore.

Electrostatic loudspeakers are difficult to sell simply because so many
people have no idea what they're about, and because people are into
home theatre, which is 5 channels minimum. These speakers would
not readily be able to integrate into a home theatre setup.

If you're not in a big hurry to get rid of them and are willing to spend
some time doing it, you can just list them "as is" on Craigslist for a while
to see if anyone bites. Price them at $1000 and see what happens.
You might look at what something comparable from Martin Logan
sells for and look to that as something of a guildline. If the Martin-Logan
sells for $1600/pair, then $1000/pair for your Soundlabs might be correct
to allow for the cost of upgrading the power supplies.

Expect to have to list on a weekly basis for the next 12 weeks. I used to
own a pair of X-Static loudspeakers, which have a lot in common with
the Sound Labs line and it took me a good 4 months to find a buyer.

If you're in a hurry, just put up a Craigslist notice saying "Free to good home".
That'll get 'em out of your house within the week.

Russ

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Harry Lavo <hlavo@comcast.net> wrote:

: My recollection was that they were pretty darn good speakers. You say you
: are not much interested in them anymore. If they are still the best
: speakers you've ever had, why not?

: From you description, my guess would be capacitors are gone, not the
: transformer. Any really competent repair guy or hobbyist EE could probably
: troubleshoot and repair the power supply right there in Chicago, and for
: less than $500. If I'm right (and that's obviously only an "if") then you'd
: have a perfectly fine set of speakers..."probably the best I've owned." Of
: course, that assumes you still have something to drive them with. And that
: you still have an interest in music. If not the latter, then i think option
: number three is best...put them up, describe the situation accurately, make
: them "pick up only". My guess is you'll find somebody between the Quad
: Cities and Milwaukee willing to pay something for them.

Well, someone else sort of touched upon the answer why I don't need/want
them anymore, home theater. I just don't listen to music much anymore and
for the past few years have bottomed out to "couch potato".

The Soundlabs play really well, when used by themselves. But as the other
person mentioned, they definetly don't mix well in multi-channel. I've used
them that way, tried to anyway, but because their effeciency is very low, by
the time you balance all the channels, there isn't much left to listen to.

As far as repairing them, am 99% sure it's a factory job. I'm somewhat of a
technician, did tv repair from the vacuum tube days and into vcr's up
through the year 2000. Also had minor forte's into power amps, both home and
pro gear (musicians, rock stars, hate the lot).

The boxes were already repaired several times through the years, never
together. Maybe the left one first, then a year later the right, then in a
couple years after that, the left again. I took them apart (not much holding
them together after disconnecting them from the panel) and in reality, there
isn't that much in there.

It looks like each time they were repaired, the only thing changed was the
one transformer, not power supply but the one that interfaces to the audio
side of things. Difficult to say 100% because they are doped (potted),
probably more for mechanical reasons than trade secrets.

If the panel was totally dead, I'd agree with you on a possible cap repair.
Like I mentioned in the original post, the panel works but it doesn't take a
trained ear to figure out one doesn't sound like the other. The "bad one" is
slightly lower in output and you can hear a raspyness to certain vocals.

I think it's some kind of insulation breakdown in the transformer, else just
an old fashioned short in it. From memory (this going back 10-15 years), I'm
pretty sure the banana jacks your amp connects to is simply across the input
side of the transformer. All the voodoo with that pot/adjustment to match
the panel's crossover is on the secondary side, the power supply and step up
stuff is isolated from both.

As you can imagine, that transformer isn't something you'll run across at
Radio Shack, again from rusty memory, there isn't even a part number or code
on it, assumed it was custom wound, maybe by hand.

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far, something to chew on.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com

 

[Bear]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Bruce Esquibel wrote:

> Harry Lavo <hlavo@comcast.net> wrote:
<snip>
>
> <snip>
>
> As far as repairing them, am 99% sure it's a factory job. I'm somewhat of a
> technician, did tv repair from the vacuum tube days and into vcr's up
> through the year 2000. Also had minor forte's into power amps, both home and
> pro gear (musicians, rock stars, hate the lot).

Relatively trivial to repair the interfaces.
>
> <snip>
> It looks like each time they were repaired, the only thing changed was the
> one transformer, not power supply but the one that interfaces to the audio
> side of things. Difficult to say 100% because they are doped (potted),
> probably more for mechanical reasons than trade secrets.

Interfaces consist of basically two parts:
- audio step up (with or without caps and resistors)
- high voltage supply

>
> If the panel was totally dead, I'd agree with you on a possible cap repair.
> Like I mentioned in the original post, the panel works but it doesn't take a
> trained ear to figure out one doesn't sound like the other. The "bad one" is
> slightly lower in output and you can hear a raspyness to certain vocals.

This could be either a fried xfmr or bad HV supply or both. The HV
supply is usually a moderate voltage xfmr followed by a diode/capacitor
multiplier "stack". If the caps get leaky, the string drops in voltage.
Going over the peak voltage of the supply with the audio causes clipping
on the ESLs... "raspyness".

Almost all ESL repairs I have done end up being either the diodes or the
HV caps.

With a HV probe you can check the HV supply directly...
Or you can jury rig the "good" interface box's HV supply to the "bad"
panel and use the audio part (assuming it isn't all potted) to run the
panel, diagnosing the HV supply vs. the audio step up xfmr.



>
> I think it's some kind of insulation breakdown in the transformer, else just
> an old fashioned short in it. From memory (this going back 10-15 years), I'm
> pretty sure the banana jacks your amp connects to is simply across the input
> side of the transformer. All the voodoo with that pot/adjustment to match
> the panel's crossover is on the secondary side, the power supply and step up
> stuff is isolated from both.

You can check all the transformers with an ohmeter. Start with just
measuring the primaries and secondaries between the two channels. If you
find a reasonably large diff, then remove the inputs or loads from them
and see what you measure - this eliminates the load as the cause or
points to it. (smell is also a tip off to a toasty xfmr...)


>
> As you can imagine, that transformer isn't something you'll run across at
> Radio Shack, again from rusty memory, there isn't even a part number or code
> on it, assumed it was custom wound, maybe by hand.

Kind of irrelevant - these are not exotic transformers at all.
If you know the turns ratio, the primary inductance, and the freq
response of a good one, you know everything you need to know to replace it.

The HV xfmrs are generic anyhow.

>
> Thanks to everyone for the responses so far, something to chew on.
>
> -bruce
> bje@ripco.com

_-_-bear

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

BEAR <bearlabs@netzero.net> wrote:

: Kind of irrelevant - these are not exotic transformers at all.
: If you know the turns ratio, the primary inductance, and the freq
: response of a good one, you know everything you need to know to replace it.

: The HV xfmrs are generic anyhow.


Would agree on the hv one, not so sure about the one on the audio side. I
know even in the late 80's it's wasn't too expensive nor difficult to get
transformers custom made, in short quanities (100-499 peices). These days
they barely use them in power supplies anymore let alone audio applications.

Anyway, decided to take a shot at it, pulled them out of storage and got the
brain-boxes off. One observation to make, especially after reading your post
about the ESL's, could be the HV board after all, at least the previous
repairs.

Looking closely at them now, what I thought 10/15 years ago when examined
after one of the repairs, it does give the illusion the audio transformer
was replaced because of the extra rtv glop around the terminals. But I think
now it's just extra rtv.

The way he built these, the box is just a simple aluminum u-channel with
everything, the two transformers, the two "circuit boards" (in quotes
because they are hand-wired, no copper traces) attached via rivets and
eyelets. Looking at the rivets, it appears the only ones replaced were the
ones attached to the hv board. The ones on the legs of both transformers all
seem to match, including the same dull color.

So maybe it is just a bad diode or cap on the board.

The other panel is playing fine so going back and forth to figure out the
differences with one to the other will sort of be a peice of cake. Is no
problem running them with the covers off and mounted on the panel.

Need to go grab my test gear, if nobody is too bored with the subject will
report the results in a few days. Might as well take a few pictures and draw
out a schematic, will post those somewhere in case it does some good in the
future for someone else.

thanks,

-bruce
bje@ripco.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Bruce,

before you do anything drastic, I highly recommend you post
your question at the Soundlab Owners Group:

http://www.soundlabowners.com/forum/index.html

Someone here is sure to have the best info/advice!

Otherwise, just holler and I'll come pick them up!!

David Schultz
(just about 15 miles out of Chicago)