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Bad review of Canon vs. HP printers....just sad

Last response: in Computer Peripherals
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December 10, 2005 8:50:26 AM

Lots of problems with the review:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/08/canon_hp_xmas_in...

1. Canon has a model IP6600 which has:

1. LCD screen
2. Card Slots
3. 3000 nozzles
4. photo magenta and photo cyan
5. cd/dvd printing
6. 1 picoliter droplet

yet we are subjected to a review of the 4200/5200 models which the reviewer states: "the Japanese vendor remained mired in its usual conservatism".

2. Ink Capacity

HP 8250

6 HP ink cartridges:
HP 02 Black, 16 ml,
HP 02 Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Magenta, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Yellow, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Magenta, 4.5ml

Canon IP4200/5200/6600:

13 ml per cart except pigment black for the 4200/5200 which is 26 ml. Why don't reviews state how much ink we will be getting and how much those carts will cost ?

Canon's have 3 times more ink and yet the carts cost about the same as HP !!!

3. Third party inks

One way to dramtically reduce cost is to use third party ink. The cost difference can be 20 times lower. I use Formulabs in all my Canons and the quality is the same I was getting from Canon OEM ink. There is no problem with color fading as the OEM's will always try to claim. I have pictures that I did a year ago that are as bright and crisp as the day I printed them. Proper storage and display is recommended for any picture you take.

The ink I purchased cost me $34 versus Canon OEM ink which would run me $600 for the same amount.

It's no secret that ink is where they make their money. Producing ink can be as low as $4 per liter and yet they sell it for $1000 per liter or more. HP makes it's lion share of profit on ink sales alone.

...
December 10, 2005 12:20:46 PM

Quote:
Lots of problems with the review:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/08/canon_hp_xmas_in...
2. Ink Capacity

HP 8250

6 HP ink cartridges:
HP 02 Black, 16 ml,
HP 02 Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Magenta, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Yellow, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Magenta, 4.5ml

Canon IP4200/5200/6600:

13 ml per cart except pigment black for the 4200/5200 which is 26 ml. Why don't reviews state how much ink we will be getting and how much those carts will cost ?

Canon's have 3 times more ink and yet the carts cost about the same as HP !!!

It's no secret that ink is where they make their money. Producing ink can be as low as $4 per liter and yet they sell it for $1000 per liter or more. HP makes it's lion share of profit on ink sales alone.

...


Hey Knightcrawler... I'll agree you do have somewhat of a valid point the fact that volume of the cartridges is an important piece of info... less so than yields. Keep in mind that Canons are... and I'm being fair here... ink hogs. Efficency hasn't gone up and while it's true the canon does about 500pages or so in the 26ml black the HP's yield on the #02 HP 02 Black, 16 ml is actually about the same. The last time I crunched the numbers the new HP taking the #02 was actually reasonably close to canon in terms of cost per page... though slightly in Canon's favor. I respect you an your opinion but I must say yield is my deciding factor. ml per page is also most important to me as like your self I am a refiller... and greater efficency per volume if you refill... assuming costs are equal per volume which they tend to be... means lower costs. But good posting that yield info... important info and it should be added to the offical review.

Canon inks are from what i've seen pretty watery where something like Epson dye is quite dence. As a CD printer you self you can observe this... on the r200 you can get away with printing on non-printable medium so long as you wait a month. The dye beads slightly but for the most part it sticks.... where the canon ink has the consistancy of water and becomes a rainbow waterfall.

The other things I'm surprised at is there hasn't been an artical on toms about modifying the canon printers. This is tweeker centeral after all.
December 10, 2005 4:36:10 PM

Setting text printing aside since I have an older Canon and 8 ounces of black ink. So I don't use the IP4000 for that purpose and 16 ml is closer to 26ml then 4.5 ml is to 13 ml.

The 8250 can muster 125 4x6's before it's out of ink, the Canon will hit 400.

If your doing photos, DVD, CD and color pages then the Canon is still the better deal.


Also I should note that staples puts the Canon Glossy plus 4x6's on sale a lot and it's usually half price. The last time it was $5.98 for a 50 pack if I recall and on black friday they had them for $2.95, a good time to stock up.

For those less picky or needing a economy paper costco sells 300 for $14 and Compusa sells 200 for $10, not every picture needs to last a lifetime.
Related resources
December 10, 2005 9:42:21 PM

Quote:

Canon's have 3 times more ink and yet the carts cost about the same as HP


Here HP's carts are 60% the price of canons.
December 11, 2005 6:08:29 AM

Quote:

Canon's have 3 times more ink and yet the carts cost about the same as HP


Here HP's carts are 60% the price of canons.

Yes... while the volume is definatly lower... the last time I looked at the yields... they were within a few percent of canon's price, and actually I think the parent "knightcrawler" is a little mistaken on the yields.

----------------
HP 02 Black, 16 ml,
HP 02 Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Magenta, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Yellow, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Magenta, 4.5ml
-------------------

This is the data I posted some months back.

Black 10ml
Cyan 4ml
Magenta 3.5ml
Yellow 6ml
L Cyan 5.5ml
L Magenta 5.5ml

-----------------------------

Yes, I know it's a wacky system... but not totally unreasonable.
December 11, 2005 7:01:40 AM

Quote:

Canon's have 3 times more ink and yet the carts cost about the same as HP


Here HP's carts are 60% the price of canons.

Yes... while the volume is definatly lower... the last time I looked at the yields... they were within a few percent of canon's price, and actually I think the parent "knightcrawler" is a little mistaken on the yields.

----------------
HP 02 Black, 16 ml,
HP 02 Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Magenta, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Yellow, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Cyan, 4.5 ml,
HP 02 Light Magenta, 4.5ml
-------------------

This is the data I posted some months back.

Black 10ml
Cyan 4ml
Magenta 3.5ml
Yellow 6ml
L Cyan 5.5ml
L Magenta 5.5ml

-----------------------------



The data came straight from HP's page, scroll to the bottom: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/product_deta...



Quote:
What's in the box?


• HP Photosmart 8250 Printer
• 6 HP ink cartridges: HP 02 Black, 16 ml, HP 02 Cyan, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Magenta, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Yellow, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Light Cyan, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Light Magenta, 4.5ml
• HP Image Zone Photo and Imaging Software on CD-ROM
• Quick start booklet
• User's guide
• Power supply and power cord




.......
December 11, 2005 7:13:40 AM

Quote:

Canon's have 3 times more ink and yet the carts cost about the same as HP


Here HP's carts are 60% the price of canons.

Yes but they have one third the ink. Also were do you live US or UK ?
December 11, 2005 8:34:51 AM

The data came straight from HP's page, scroll to the bottom: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/product_deta...



Quote:
What's in the box?


• HP Photosmart 8250 Printer
• 6 HP ink cartridges: HP 02 Black, 16 ml, HP 02 Cyan, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Magenta, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Yellow, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Light Cyan, 4.5 ml, HP 02 Light Magenta, 4.5ml
• HP Image Zone Photo and Imaging Software on CD-ROM
• Quick start booklet
• User's guide
• Power supply and power cord




.......[/quote]

ah... good of you to site the source... i'm trying to track down mine presently but already I can see the yields published on this page that match the numbers I quoted
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=searc...

I remember I saw a url on the box at the store... something like hp / pageyields or some such.

http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/PS8200/index....

Here we are, found it on steve's forums... not the ml I quoted but the estimated page yields.

Ah but let me find where I found the volume info


HP 02 Magenta Ink Cartridge C8772WN 3.5ml
(C8721WN) black 10ml
(C8771WN) cyan 4ml
(C8773WN) yellow 6ml
(C8775WN) (C8774WN) light magenta / cyan 5.5ml
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06c/A10-12771...

I trust you presented info in good faith... I have enough experence with you that you do have high credibility in my book... but it looks like information from HP is not consistent given we are both siting information from HP them selves. HP are being foofoo heads.

But anyhow your point is volume... and someone else's point is cost.

hp02 10ml 480p 48p/ml or with your numbers 16ml or 30p/ml
bci-3e 25ml 500p 20p/ml
Ink efficency... factor of 2.4x or 1.5x depending on who's numbers are more accurate.


hp02 $17.99 480p 3.5c/page
bci-3e $12.99 500p 2.596c/page
pgi-5bk $15.99 500p 3.1c/page


What I don't presently know is what unit of measurement HP is using... the 500p for bci-3e is based on 5% yield, where I can find the test page HP uses I just don't know how close it is to reality. Canon publishs some other numbers for their cartridges that are totally unrealistic.

But i'll agree that the black in the case of the HP does cost more based on office depot's prices, assuming the measurement of yield is the same. I'm too lazy to do color at the moment.
December 13, 2005 12:57:42 PM

I had looked at the HP web site and as I recall the one I checked did not list a uniform 4.5 ml for HP8250 color inks. So we may have a case of bad statistics.----or foo foo heads as someone eloquently put it.

But another joker in the deck is being ignored-----namely not all ink in an OEM cartridge is usable----some is retained in the sponge.

Lets assume its 2 ml of ink retained in both Canon and HP cartridges.

So Canon color cartridge has 13 ml - 2ml =11 ml usuable ink

HP color has say 4.5 ml of ink -2ml = 2.5 ml of usable ink.

So our quotent goes from ----13/4.5= 2.89

to

----------------------------------11/2.5=4.40

Of course this 2 ml assumtion may not be accurate but I think the basic point is made-------HP ink would have to be incredably more efficent to account for this latest THG review numbers.-------I smell a rat.
December 13, 2005 8:41:49 PM

Quote:
I had looked at the HP web site and as I recall the one I checked did not list a uniform 4.5 ml for HP8250 color inks. So we may have a case of bad statistics.----or foo foo heads as someone eloquently put it.

But another joker in the deck is being ignored-----namely not all ink in an OEM cartridge is usable----some is retained in the sponge.

Lets assume its 2 ml of ink retained in both Canon and HP cartridges.

So Canon color cartridge has 13 ml - 2ml =11 ml usuable ink

HP color has say 4.5 ml of ink -2ml = 2.5 ml of usable ink.

So our quotent goes from ----13/4.5= 2.89

to

----------------------------------11/2.5=4.40

Of course this 2 ml assumtion may not be accurate but I think the basic point is made-------HP ink would have to be incredably more efficent to account for this latest THG review numbers.-------I smell a rat.


Or... perhaps HP doesn't use sponges... I'm pretty sure the epson cartridges don't use sponges at all but depend on a multi-chamber system to assure somewhat equal pressure throughout it's life. But the funny thing is in a 10 to 15ml cartridge it ends up wasting 1-5ml.

Your comment on canon is accurate... the sponge has a capasity of 20% of the total volume in the older series.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/canon_ip400...
Newer series should be similar. While this would effect efficency and waste... what is measured is based on what is used. For example if putting 25 or now 26ml into a cartridge results in printing 500 pages at 5% yield, we can safely assume ink use is .5ml/page including waste (purging, cleaning, and sponge retention).

I agree with you that under normal conditions you would expect a few ml of waste ink... and this is worth looking at. But keep also in mind the cartridge location on the HP system, and the claim it uses a closed loop system. The cartridges are located on the front of the printer, which would require at the very least a tube system. It's very possible that the cartridge medium gets pumped into an internal reservoir. For example I refil my ip3000... I have bottles of ink which in turn get poured into cartridges with a sponge that have a capasity of 20% and a reservoir of 80%. I refill when my reserviour is empty. That 20% stays in the sponge and is not wasted until such time as I replace the cartridge... then I would lose as much as 20%.... 20% of one cartridge over a period of 5 to 10 cartridges.

So if it's possible for the HP to extract every ml of ink from the cartridges, and add that to the existing reservoir required for pumping and cycling... the only time you'll waste mililiters of ink would be at such time as you replace the printer. This is not a fact... it's my hypothesis based on minimal info on the HP design.

Questions to ask
1. Does HP use a sponge?
2. How much is retained in the cartridge?
3. How much ink is saved by closed loop cleaning vs diaper based systems?
December 14, 2005 9:30:45 PM

Some valid points raised zakezuke.

I also know little about a HP8250. But one thing I am unclear on and I hope I can get an answer on------namely do the cartridges for this printer still have
the printheads with the cartridges-----or is it like the Canon and Epsons--and have the printhead totally seperate from the cartridge. ----meaning anyone could also manufacture the actual inktank.

I would also ask what about refilling for the 8250? Were I to be intested in a given printer and planned to refill my own cartridges, I might be reluctant to use cartridges of small capacity.----because why just get a few prints out of a cartridge when I can select a printer with larger cartridges meaning I have the hassle and labor of actually refilling far less often? This might not save money because the same amount of ink would be consumed but it sure would save labor.------unless your idea of fun is refilling as often as possible.

Another question would be in regard to any internal defenses HP has added to the 8250 to discourage refilling?---we already know about the chipped cartridges in new Canons ------and that seems the modern inkjet manufacter's stratagy-----force consumers to use OEM cartridges.--or failing in that to make the consumer work much harder when they refill.

So hopefully someone can shed light on my questions, zakezuke questions , and other questions raised in this thread.
!