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Strength of Beginner Hill

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Anonymous
July 15, 2005 5:41:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

Hi all,

as all the beginner already recognized the Beginner Hill is going
harder and harder to enter. The reason is that the hill is more and
more occupied by strong warriors, which didn't perish on such a hill.

I would like to initiate a discussion how to solve this dilemma. What
are the experiences of the beginners regarding the Beginner Hill? It
would be sad if beginners give up just because of a too high entrance
barrier of the Beginner Hill.

Here are some ideas I collected as a starting point for the discussion:

1. An age limit similar to the past Pizza Beginner Hill. Warriors
reaching an age of 100 will be automatically perish. This would prevent
for an accumulation of strong warriors but wouldn't keep the entrance
barrier of the beginner hill very stable.

2. A sort out of too strong warriors under certain rules. However, this
would be frustrating for players who wouldn't enter the Beginner Hill
with their best warriors because those entries would be rejected but on
the other hand they also don't make it on the pro hills because missing
fractions of points for that. However, it would result in a more stable
and low entrance barrier for the Beginner Hill.

3. A kind of 'hill wipe' to clean the complete or at least the upper
part of the hill after a certain time or under certain rules. This
would renew the beginner hill keeping the entrance barrier not very
stable but pleasant low. The downside would be that entries could
unjustified perish very 'young'.

I am looking foward to see your comments and proposals.

Greetings,

Christian

More about : strength beginner hill

Anonymous
July 15, 2005 8:19:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

another solution would be running it against a benchmark. if the
warrior scores more than 120pts against fsh than it shouldn't enter the
hill. but that would slow down the server a lot....

el kauka
July 15, 2005 11:10:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

elkauka wrote:
> another solution would be running it against a benchmark. if the
> warrior scores more than 120pts against fsh than it shouldn't enter the
> hill. but that would slow down the server a lot....
>
> el kauka

But again, this might discourage people from submitting their strongest
warriors.

The problem, I think, is not with the occasional strong warrior; it's
with a bunch of strong warriors that hang around too long. I would
prefer the age limit solution. But looking at the current beginner
hill, there are only 4 warriors over age 100, so that might not be a
short enough limit to make a significant difference. How about a max
age of 50? That would get rid of 7 warriors, all in the top 11. That's
enough to lower the entrance barrier substantially.

Whether warriors are retired abruptly or phased out gradually, I don't
think makes a difference.
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 3:10:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

Hi

fizmo_master@yahoo.com wrote:
> as all the beginner already recognized the Beginner Hill is going
> harder and harder to enter. The reason is that the hill is more and

yes, that was quite a frustrating experience some time ago. A lot of my
challenges didn't made it by 1 or 2 points.

> I would like to initiate a discussion how to solve this dilemma. What
> are the experiences of the beginners regarding the Beginner Hill? It

I almost gave up.

> 1. An age limit similar to the past Pizza Beginner Hill. Warriors
> reaching an age of 100 will be automatically perish. This would prevent
> for an accumulation of strong warriors but wouldn't keep the entrance
> barrier of the beginner hill very stable.

I think, that this version would be quite good, but another possibility
might be better. Use an adjusted scoring. Something like

score * exp(-age) (just an example)

That way even strong warriors will die after they reach a certain age,
but they die without a sudden disappearance (like killing them with age
100).

- Jens Gutzeit
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:52:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

Hi,

It looks to me that the majority approves an age limit of 50, right?

Christian
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 2:46:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

fizmo_master@yahoo.com wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It looks to me that the majority approves an age limit of 50, right?
>
> Christian

One idea i have while reading eMail today is, that it should 50 Challenges
from Warriors with different Names. 7 Challenges of "Seeker" should counted
as one. Hope that is not too much work for Joonas ;-)

Sascha

--
Parlez vous Redcode ?
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 1:59:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

fizmo_master@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It looks to me that the majority approves an age limit of 50, right?
>
> Christian

Remember, when one warrior is retired, whether age 50 or 100, it
creates a gap. Usually two or three weaker warriors enter the hill
soon after due to the gap, aging the hill further.

The average age of a warrior on the beginner hill over a period of time
is 25 anyway.

Considering the above, I'm in favour of an age limit of 100. Age 100
also seems more of an achievement, something to aim for :-)

John
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 4:08:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

Hah, sorry about the multiple challenges of Seeker. >.>

I'm for an age limit of 50 as well. But I'm a biased beginner, so iunno
if it'll matter. :-P
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:10:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

Cap'n Strong wrote:
> Hah, sorry about the multiple challenges of Seeker. >.>
>
> I'm for an age limit of 50 as well. But I'm a biased beginner, so iunno
> if it'll matter. :-P

I *think* I am more towards the PRO group but sometimes I have the
beginner feeling inside (but I won't send any to beginner hill though).
Bias is likely, I am for age limit of 50. If above 50, promote to
Standard league. If failed, improved and send back to beginner hill if
you wish. Then repeat cycle.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 4:40:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

I agree, age of 100 sounds better than age of 50 for beginners who aim
for reaching the max. age :-) I remember that I was proud to see my
warriors reaching the age limit. AFAIK, on the former Pizza Beginner
Hill it takes around a month for that.*

Since the SAL Beginner Hill was open we have an average of 5 challenges
per week, while approximately 3 challenges per week make it onto the
beginner hill. If we think all challenges make it onto the hill after
an age limit is installed the time to reach the age limit would be
either 2.5 months (for age limit 50) or 5 months (for age limit 100).

Personally, I think staying 2.5 months on Beginner Hill with an entry
seems quite ok and beginner won't wait too long to see if they reach
the age limit.

- Christian

* I don't remember if the beginner hill had the same feature than
Pizza's pro hills -> Aging only if the new warrior scores at least 100
pts. Something like that could prevent aging because of filling the gap
with weak warriors.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 12:18:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

> * I don't remember if the beginner hill had the same feature than
> Pizza's pro hills -> Aging only if the new warrior scores at least 100
> pts. Something like that could prevent aging because of filling the gap
> with weak warriors.

No, the Pizza beginner hill didn't have this feature. A
successful entry aged the hill no matter how low it scored.

John
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 5:10:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

I give my vote for the age limit of 100!
There aren't that many strong warriors on the 94b at the moment, but I
agree that there must exist some sort of a mechanism to prevent strong
warriors from occupying the hill completely and thus making it
extremely difficult for beginners to enter the hill. The age of 100
certainly sounds better than 50 and it will be a greater achievement to
live to the age 100 than 50. I'm afraid that installing an age limit of
50 will make the hill too easy, since all of the good warriors will
fall off automatically soon after they enter... and there aren't that
many high-quality entries to 94b to fill that gap. 94b should not be a
difficult hill, but it should still be a *hill* - a place for better
warriors.
The idea of hill aging only if a challenger satisfies certain criteria
- >= limitscore, or >=limitposition_onthehill sounds also very
interesting, but it could make the whole affair a little bit
complicated. I'd still like to suggest constructing the *medium* hill,
that will be challenged by those warriors from 94b that are
automatically removed at age 100, and ONLY by such warriors. (no
challenges by email). It could be interesting to see ex-kings of the
94b fighting for glory. :) 
regards,

Nenad
August 4, 2005 10:21:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.corewar (More info?)

Well said! I agree totally. I especially like the "beginner veteran"
hill idea.

I change my vote to 100.

- Chip
!