Temporary ST power?

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Though there's an Extended Duration enhancement for powers, there
doesn't seem to be anything of the opposite. I'm trying to deduce the
proper point cost for "temporary ST", like the adrenaline boost
experienced by the Incredible Hulk.

At first, I thought of making ST automatically temporary, resulting in
a base cost of 2.5 points per level. This would use the Extended
Duration chart reproduced here...

POWER COST
DURATION MODIFIER
1 +0%
3 +20%
10 +40%
30 +60%
100 +80%
300 +100%
1,000 +120%
indefinate +150% (turns off eventually)
permanent +300% (never turns off)

However, the more I think about it, I wonder if limited-time ST should
simply use an easy progression to the lowest possible cost (-80%) as
shown on this "backward" version of the chart for advantages...

ADVANTAGE COST
DURATION MODIFIER
permanent -0% (never turns off)
indefinate -10% (turns off eventually)
1,000 -20%
300 -30%
100 -40%
30 -50%
10 -60%
3 -70%
1 -80%

Any comments or [polite] suggestions would be appreciated, especially
if someone knows the "official" answer on this one. Thank you.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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Red Beard wrote:

> Any comments or [polite] suggestions would be appreciated, especially
> if someone knows the "official" answer on this one. Thank you.

Limited Use specifically covers advantages (and by extension Stats) that are
only "on" temporarily.


--
_ _ _ http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland
|_ ,_ . _ |_> (_` _ . _|_ |_
|_ | | (_ |_> __) ||| | | | | @earthling.net

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> writes:

> Though there's an Extended Duration enhancement for powers, there
> doesn't seem to be anything of the opposite. I'm trying to deduce the
> proper point cost for "temporary ST", like the adrenaline boost
> experienced by the Incredible Hulk.
>
> At first, I thought of making ST automatically temporary, resulting in
> a base cost of 2.5 points per level. This would use the Extended
> Duration chart reproduced here...
>
> POWER COST
> DURATION MODIFIER
> 1 +0%
> 3 +20%
> 10 +40%
> 30 +60%
> 100 +80%
> 300 +100%
> 1,000 +120%
> indefinate +150% (turns off eventually)
> permanent +300% (never turns off)
>
> However, the more I think about it, I wonder if limited-time ST should
> simply use an easy progression to the lowest possible cost (-80%) as
> shown on this "backward" version of the chart for advantages...
>
> ADVANTAGE COST
> DURATION MODIFIER
> permanent -0% (never turns off)
> indefinate -10% (turns off eventually)
> 1,000 -20%
> 300 -30%
> 100 -40%
> 30 -50%
> 10 -60%
> 3 -70%
> 1 -80%
>
> Any comments or [polite] suggestions would be appreciated, especially
> if someone knows the "official" answer on this one. Thank you.

I'd use a limitation, "Only when angry".

Shalon Wood

--
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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message news:<bbr4q096rtfkl0uf51vi6rtbau94lp6jba@4ax.com>...
> Though there's an Extended Duration enhancement for powers, there
> doesn't seem to be anything of the opposite. I'm trying to deduce the
> proper point cost for "temporary ST", like the adrenaline boost
> experienced by the Incredible Hulk.

How about using the limitations "Emergencies
Only" or "Full Power in Emergencies Only"?
That's for abilities triggered by fear or
excitement, but which can't be used (or are
less powerful) under normal non-stressful
conditions, which seems similar to the Hulk's
extra strength only when angry.

 

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On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:39:56 GMT, "Eric B. Smith"
<smithericb@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Limited Use specifically covers advantages (and by extension Stats) that are
>only "on" temporarily.

Limited use doesn't cut it. I need to reduce a normally-permanent
advantage (or attribute) to a limited-duration special power. Using
the example with the Incredible Hulk, this is what he needs...

Lifting & Striking ST +70 (Delay, 1 per second, +0%; Duration,
indefinate, -10%; Size, -10%; Trigger, berserk rage, -20%) [336].

The "indefinate" is equivalent to the +150% version of Extended
Duration, not the +300% truely-permanent one. His lift and striking
ST will increase at a rate of 1 per second (up to a maximum of +70),
and will last as long as he's in a rage.

Again, here's the experimental table with which I determined the point
cost reduction for non-permanent advantages and attributes...

ADVANTAGE COST
DURATION MODIFIER
permanent -0%
indefinate -10%
1,000 -20%
300 -30%
100 -40%
30 -50%
10 -60%
3 -70%
1 -80%

Since there doesn't seem to be an official solution, what's your
opinion of the percentages on my chart?

At first, I didn't like how the numbers weren't perfectly congrous to
those in the Extended Duration chart, but then I realized that they
all fit perfectly from -0% to -80%, in nice little increments of 10%!


-- M.J.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:12:16 GMT, Shalon Wood <dstar@pele.cx> wrote:

>I'd use a limitation, "Only when angry".

As I just mentioned in my reply to Mr. Smith, I need a little more
from it. The problem isn't just for Hulk, but for any character that
uses an advantage or attribute in a temporary fashion. We need a
modifier for limited *duration*, not just Limited Use.

Hulk's extra ST has "berserk rage" as a Trigger, but it needed
something further to describe how it gradually builds with his
increasing anger.

Though the percentages in my chart may be debatable (that's why I
asked for either an official solution or suggestions), the concept is
sound. As far as I can tell, "limited duration" is something missing
from the Limitations section.

-- M.J.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:19:11 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>As far as I can tell, "limited duration" is something missing
>from the Limitations section.

Oops... Let me correct myself by saying a "REDUCED duration"
limitation seems to be missing from the book.

-- M.J.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:08:28 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:39:56 GMT, "Eric B. Smith"
><smithericb@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Limited Use specifically covers advantages (and by extension Stats) that are
>>only "on" temporarily.
>
>Limited use doesn't cut it. I need to reduce a normally-permanent
>advantage (or attribute) to a limited-duration special power.

Limited use does that.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:10:18 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>Limited use doesn't cut it. I need to reduce a normally-permanent
>>advantage (or attribute) to a limited-duration special power.
>
>Limited use does that.

No, it doesn't -- the text reads: "You can use your ability only a
limited number of times in a 24-hour period. For most advantages,
each 'use' is 1 minute of activation..."

Perhaps you're confusing DURATION with USES.

I want to make an advantage temporary instead of permanent, so I can
use whenever I want to, NOT just a certain number of times per day.

If the rules allow us to make temporary things permanent (Extended
Duration, +300%), then there should be an equivalent mechanism to
change permanent advantages into temporary powers as well.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:00:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:10:18 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>>Limited use doesn't cut it. I need to reduce a normally-permanent
>>>advantage (or attribute) to a limited-duration special power.
>>
>>Limited use does that.
>
>No, it doesn't -- the text reads: "You can use your ability only a
>limited number of times in a 24-hour period. For most advantages,
>each 'use' is 1 minute of activation..."

I'd say that "1 minute" is a limited duration, especially when the
unmodified advantage is "always on".

>Perhaps you're confusing DURATION with USES.
>
>I want to make an advantage temporary instead of permanent, so I can
>use whenever I want to, NOT just a certain number of times per day.

If I was the GM, I'd rule that "on whenever I want to use it" is worth
-0%; that isn't a limitation in game terms.

If you want a point break for an advantage, then you have to have some
in-game reason for your character not having access to the advantage at
all times. To use your example, The Hulk can access his strength
whenever he needs it, so his player shouldn't get a point break for
having a high ST score only part of the time. However, I'd allow the
player a point break for having to build up to the high ST score
gradually - see below for how I'd model it.


>If the rules allow us to make temporary things permanent (Extended
>Duration, +300%), then there should be an equivalent mechanism to
>change permanent advantages into temporary powers as well.

There are: Accessibility, Limited Use, Pact, Takes Recharge, Trigger,
and Unreliable all make advantages temporary (Pact less so than the
others).


Now, let's step back from the words that people are using and look at
what you actually want to model, shall we?

It appears to me that you want a slow buildup from a "standard" level of
a statistic to a higher level of the statistic. You could fake this
with repeated use of the Trigger limitation (e.g. ST 12 - Trigger:
staying in ST 11 for a half-minute; ST 13 - Trigger: staying in ST 12
for a half-minute; ST 14 - Trigger: staying in ST 13 for a half-minute;
etc. - adjust the numbers to suit). Since you can get the lower level
of the statistic literally anywhere, these would be -10% Triggers, and
thus each level of "extra" ST would cost 9 points instead of 10.

--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
"And really, you think people who watch Japanese cartoons would be a
little more understanding of the seemingly odd hobbies of other fringe
groups." - Chris "Blade" McNeil on rec.arts.anime.misc, 20 Jan 2004

 

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On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:10:11 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Though there's an Extended Duration enhancement for powers, there
>doesn't seem to be anything of the opposite. I'm trying to deduce the
>proper point cost for "temporary ST", like the adrenaline boost
>experienced by the Incredible Hulk.
>
>At first, I thought of making ST automatically temporary, resulting in
>a base cost of 2.5 points per level. This would use the Extended
>Duration chart reproduced here...
>
>POWER COST
>DURATION MODIFIER
>1 +0%
>3 +20%
>10 +40%
>30 +60%
>100 +80%
>300 +100%
>1,000 +120%
>indefinate +150% (turns off eventually)
>permanent +300% (never turns off)
>
>However, the more I think about it, I wonder if limited-time ST should
>simply use an easy progression to the lowest possible cost (-80%) as
>shown on this "backward" version of the chart for advantages...
>
>ADVANTAGE COST
>DURATION MODIFIER
>permanent -0% (never turns off)
>indefinate -10% (turns off eventually)
>1,000 -20%
>300 -30%
>100 -40%
>30 -50%
>10 -60%
>3 -70%
>1 -80%
>
>Any comments or [polite] suggestions would be appreciated, especially
>if someone knows the "official" answer on this one. Thank you.

How long it lasts doesn't really matter as long as it lasts at least
10 seconds. What matters is how long you have to wait before you can
do it again.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:11:30 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>How long it lasts doesn't really matter as long as it lasts at least
>10 seconds. What matters is how long you have to wait before you can
>do it again.

Well, GURPS suggests that duration does matter, since it contains an
enhancement that specifically extends duration by 3x, 10x, 30x, 100x,
300x, 1000x, indefinate, and infinite amounts of time. That's why I
think there should be a way to do the opposite with advantages.

I understand what you're all saying, but I just don't feel comfortable
bending the rules THAT far... especially to do something they're
obviously not written to accomodate in the first place.

A representative from SJG should either give a semi-official stamp of
approval to bend the rules, or they should write up a quick "Reduced
Duration" limitation and post it.

-- M.J.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:00:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:10:18 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>>Limited use doesn't cut it. I need to reduce a normally-permanent
>>>advantage (or attribute) to a limited-duration special power.
>>
>>Limited use does that.
>
>No, it doesn't -- the text reads: "You can use your ability only a
>limited number of times in a 24-hour period. For most advantages,
>each 'use' is 1 minute of activation..."
>
>Perhaps you're confusing DURATION with USES.
>
>I want to make an advantage temporary instead of permanent, so I can
>use whenever I want to, NOT just a certain number of times per day.

If you can use it whenever you want to, how is that a limitation?

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:12:55 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:11:30 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>How long it lasts doesn't really matter as long as it lasts at least
>>10 seconds. What matters is how long you have to wait before you can
>>do it again.
>
>Well, GURPS suggests that duration does matter,

That's a different kind of duration. Duration certainly does matter
if you are trying to leave someone mind controlled for extended
periods of time. But strength is already only 1 second long.
Strength with extended duration would be Bugs Bunny strength.
You would lift an object using your extended duration. Then you'd
walk away and the object would stay there until the duration expired
and the object would fall to the ground.

But the "duration" you are talking about, is someone who is strong for
a little while, and then not strong. We've already told you how to do
the Hulk. Get ST "only when angry". -10%. Wanna know how to do
Hourman? Get ST "only for an hour after you take a certain drug" -10%

But a character who is strong only when he needs to be and isn't when
he doesn't need to be? That's not a limitation at all. It's nothing.
It's meaningless.

 

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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:22:28 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>But a character who is strong only when he needs to be and isn't when
>he doesn't need to be? That's not a limitation at all. It's nothing.
>It's meaningless.

It has a very poignant meaning when your super ST lasts for a limited
amount of time, and the building you're holding above your head can
wait longer than you can!

-- M.J.

 

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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:49:24 -0500, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
wrote:

>I'd say "it depends on what you mean". If you have DR that lasts one
>turn but has to be activated each turn, then either it's *never* going
>to be on except for infintesimal blips and the limitation is -100%, or
>it's *always* on except for infintesimal blips and the limitation is
>-0%. You have to define your terms better than you have before I can
>give a meaningful answer.

By your reasoning, there is no difference between permanent DR and
10-second DR -- either it's on or it's off. That's leaves a huge gap
in the cost-progression scheme. I cannot agree with such an
all-or-nothing approach to limitation cost.


>True - that's why you get a point break for an advantage that's not
>always available.

But the book only has a break for innacessability or limited number of
uses, not reduced duration per activation. If there's an enhancement
to increase duration in steps (x3, x10, x30, x100, x300, x1000,
indefinate, and permanent), then there should be an equivalent
limitation to reverse the process in identical steps.

That's why I suggested using a flat -10% per level of "Reduced
Duration", and so asked for opinions on the limitation value. Since
nobody seems to be complaining about the size of the percentage, I
guess I'll assume it's reasonable. I'll just post such a chart along
with my version of The Hulk, or whatever else uses it.

-- M.J.

 

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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:26:34 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:49:24 -0500, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I'd say "it depends on what you mean". If you have DR that lasts one
>>turn but has to be activated each turn, then either it's *never* going
>>to be on except for infintesimal blips and the limitation is -100%, or
>>it's *always* on except for infintesimal blips and the limitation is
>>-0%. You have to define your terms better than you have before I can
>>give a meaningful answer.
>
>By your reasoning, there is no difference between permanent DR and
>10-second DR -- either it's on or it's off.

Essentially that's just DR which is useless against unanticipated
attacks. Since anticipated attacks are Very Common, that means it
would be -20%. DR that requires concentration to use so you can't do
anything else while using it would be pretty limiting, so maybe -80%


>>True - that's why you get a point break for an advantage that's not
>>always available.
>
>But the book only has a break for innacessability or limited number of
>uses, not reduced duration per activation. If there's an enhancement
>to increase duration in steps (x3, x10, x30, x100, x300, x1000,
>indefinate, and permanent), then there should be an equivalent
>limitation to reverse the process in identical steps.

A use of strength only lasts for one second. That's as short as it
gets.

 

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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:17:41 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>But the book only has a break for innacessability or limited number of
>>uses, not reduced duration per activation. If there's an enhancement
>>to increase duration in steps (x3, x10, x30, x100, x300, x1000,
>>indefinate, and permanent), then there should be an equivalent
>>limitation to reverse the process in identical steps.
>
>A use of strength only lasts for one second. That's as short as it
>gets.

ST is a constant benefit. You don't need to stop and concentrate to
carry a heavy backpack. Likewise, just because people aren't shooting
you 24/7 doesn't mean that temporary DR is as good as permanent DR.

-- M.J.

 

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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:53:18 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:17:41 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>>But the book only has a break for innacessability or limited number of
>>>uses, not reduced duration per activation. If there's an enhancement
>>>to increase duration in steps (x3, x10, x30, x100, x300, x1000,
>>>indefinate, and permanent), then there should be an equivalent
>>>limitation to reverse the process in identical steps.
>>
>>A use of strength only lasts for one second. That's as short as it
>>gets.
>
>ST is a constant benefit.

But it's duration is still second by second.

Likewise, just because people aren't shooting
>you 24/7 doesn't mean that temporary DR is as good as permanent DR.

No, but it does mean that it's only good for not much more than a 10%
break on the price.

 

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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:37:50 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>But it's duration is still second by second.

But normal ST is always available, can be used at any time, and can be
used for as long as we want without further activation or excess
concentration. ST, by default, basically falls in the "Permanent,
+300%" category on the Extended Duration chart.

>No, but it does mean that it's only good for not much more than a 10%
>break on the price.

Nor did I suggest Hulk's limited-time ST would have any more than a
10% cost break. Everyone's making it sound like I wanna give him
extra ST at -80% or something.

-- M.J.

 

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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:14:01 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:37:50 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>But it's duration is still second by second.
>
>But normal ST is always available, can be used at any time, and can be
>used for as long as we want without further activation or excess
>concentration.

DR is also always available, can be used at any time and can be used
for as long as you want without further activation or excess
concentration. Other advantages of which this is true include:

360 vision, Absolute Direction, Absolute Timing, Acute Senses,
Rank, Ambidexterity, Amphibious, Animal Empathy, Appearance,
Brachiator, Catfall, Charisma...

In fact any advantage which never inconveniences you or reflects a
permanent trait of your species. What's more, even advantages that
you don't want to keep on all the time (like Innate attack) require
only a second to activate and after that, operate continuously for as
long as you want to keep using them. There is only one exception that
I know of and that's Mind Probe and you probably shouldn't be allowed
to use Extended Duration on Mind Probe.


ST, by default, basically falls in the "Permanent,
>+300%" category on the Extended Duration chart.

That is not, repeat, not, what Extended Duration is for. It is not
for how long you can use an Advantage. It is for how long the effects
of that power last. Use Extended Duration on an Innate Attack
(lightning) and you are creating a forcefield that does damage to
anyone who tries to walk through it. Use Extended Duration on an
Affliction and it increases the time that your victim is stunned.

 

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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:43:18 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>ST, by default, basically falls in the "Permanent,
>>+300%" category on the Extended Duration chart.
>
>That is not, repeat, not, what Extended Duration is for. It is not
>for how long you can use an Advantage. It is for how long the effects
>of that power last. Use Extended Duration on an Innate Attack
>(lightning) and you are creating a forcefield that does damage to
>anyone who tries to walk through it. Use Extended Duration on an
>Affliction and it increases the time that your victim is stunned.

But the question is, if it can turn some temporary effects permanent,
why is there not a reverse method to make permanent effects act as
temporary powers? There's a hole there that neither Accessibility nor
Limited Use cover properly. I suppose one could use the rules for
Affliction to afflict one's self with advantages, but I don't think
that would be cost-effective!

-- M.J.

 

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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:25:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:43:18 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>ST, by default, basically falls in the "Permanent,
>>>+300%" category on the Extended Duration chart.
>>
>>That is not, repeat, not, what Extended Duration is for. It is not
>>for how long you can use an Advantage. It is for how long the effects
>>of that power last. Use Extended Duration on an Innate Attack
>>(lightning) and you are creating a forcefield that does damage to
>>anyone who tries to walk through it. Use Extended Duration on an
>>Affliction and it increases the time that your victim is stunned.
>
>But the question is, if it can turn some temporary effects permanent,
>why is there not a reverse method to make permanent effects act as
>temporary powers?

There is. Limited Use. Anything less restrictive than limited use,
would be so lax as to not be worth any points.

 

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David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:25:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
> wrote:
>> But the question is, if it can turn some temporary effects permanent,
>> why is there not a reverse method to make permanent effects act as
>> temporary powers?
>
> There is. Limited Use. Anything less restrictive than limited use,
> would be so lax as to not be worth any points.

I'll also not that I'd forgotten about the Trigger limitation, which also
fits into the idea of the Hulk (ST, triggered by Temper/Berserk). That and
Limited Use are what there is for "making a permanent ability temporary".

If you don't like the cost, feel free to make something else up, but it's
going to be unofficial and not jive with the official cost.

--
_ _ _ http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland
|_ ,_ . _ |_> (_` _ . _|_ |_
|_ | | (_ |_> __) ||| | | | | @earthling.net

I don't suffer from insanity. I revel in it.