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Supers: "Unstoppable" Juggernaut?

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Anonymous
December 1, 2004 1:44:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Here's another great puzzle for GURPS Supers fans...

How do we make the X-Men character Juggernaut "unstoppable" like his
special power suggests he is?

Lifting ST seems too broad unless it's somehow limited to only forward
movement. Tunneling would work, technically, if it was expanded to
include substances more than dirt (like people and trucks), but it
just sounds weird. I've even considered DR with Reflection, thinking
it might reflect the damage he'd receive from running into things --
but I think that's twisting the rules. A damaging forcefield might
eat through obstacles, but I'm not sure it's within the character
concept to vaporize everything he runs through. :) 

Any ideas?

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 7:48:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:44:22 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Here's another great puzzle for GURPS Supers fans...
>
>How do we make the X-Men character Juggernaut "unstoppable" like his
>special power suggests he is?

Insubstantiality with "affects substantial" and "leaves hole behind
him". Sure that means he's a really annoying
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 7:48:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 04:48:35 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>How do we make the X-Men character Juggernaut "unstoppable" like his
>>special power suggests he is?
>
>Insubstantiality with "affects substantial" and "leaves hole behind
>him". Sure that means he's a really annoying

I'm guessing you got cut off or I somehow didn't receive your whole
reply. Anyway, to address the particular issue you mentioned...

I can see how "leaves hole behind him" would represent his ability to
shove things aside, but having bullets pass through him just doesn't
seem right. Juggernaut's ability to brush aside (or smash through)
virtually any obstable doesn't make him into a ghost -- he can still
be tripped, buried, jumped on, etc.

Assuming you were going to type more, I look forward to the rest of
your suggestion.

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 8:41:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:22:43 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 04:48:35 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>>How do we make the X-Men character Juggernaut "unstoppable" like his
>>>special power suggests he is?
>>
>>Insubstantiality with "affects substantial" and "leaves hole behind
>>him". Sure that means he's a really annoying
>
>I'm guessing you got cut off or I somehow didn't receive your whole
>reply. Anyway, to address the particular issue you mentioned...
>
>I can see how "leaves hole behind him" would represent his ability to
>shove things aside, but having bullets pass through him just doesn't
>seem right.

Pass through, bounce off, it's all just special effects.

Juggernaut's ability to brush aside (or smash through)
>virtually any obstable doesn't make him into a ghost -- he can still
>be tripped, buried, jumped on, etc.

<shrug> Just add another limitation to it. But he can't be hurt and
he can walk through anything. Sounds like Insubstantial to me.

>
>Assuming you were going to type more, I look forward to the rest of
>your suggestion.

There wasn't that much more to it. I was going to say that makes
Juggie a really annoying character to run, but that's because he
really is a basically really annoying character.
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 1:13:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:44:22 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Here's another great puzzle for GURPS Supers fans...
>
>How do we make the X-Men character Juggernaut "unstoppable" like his
>special power suggests he is?

I'd go for a HUGE amount of ST, and DR, plus [4th Ed.] a SM of +1 or
+2.
In 3rd ed., I'd add Increased Density.

"Unstoppable" is just a nickname, not a real power... The Hulk IS able
to stop him!

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 1:13:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Korin Duval wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:44:22 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Here's another great puzzle for GURPS Supers fans...
>>
>>How do we make the X-Men character Juggernaut "unstoppable" like his
>>special power suggests he is?
>
>
> I'd go for a HUGE amount of ST, and DR, plus [4th Ed.] a SM of +1 or
> +2.
> In 3rd ed., I'd add Increased Density.

Sorry, don't have my 4e with me -- what's SM?

>
> "Unstoppable" is just a nickname, not a real power... The Hulk IS able
> to stop him!
>
> Korin Duval

Thanks,

Tom A.
Look out - it's Gazeebo Boy! And he has his band with him.....
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 6:45:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:13:29 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>I'd go for a HUGE amount of ST, and DR, plus [4th Ed.] a SM of +1 or
>+2.
>In 3rd ed., I'd add Increased Density.

I think Juggernaut's like 8'10" or something (about +1 SM). He does
seem to be overly wide as well, so that might boost it up to +2 SM.

>"Unstoppable" is just a nickname, not a real power... The Hulk IS able
>to stop him!

Well, going by the MSH RPG writeup, I believe he's a Class-1000 force
to be stopped. The same RPG says Hulk's strength tops out at Shift-Z,
I think, but the comics tend to continuously re-define stuff anyway.

Still, though he can lift tons, Juggernaut ST is not off the scale
like Hulk's can become. I'm making very conservative conversions
based on the old MSH game stats -- perhaps too conservative.

For example, assuming 3e Vehicles data was roughly scientific, it
provides us with a maximum realistic ST. Going by that, we know that
even with super-strength, the most you can do is triple the ST of a
given mass of muscle. (This is based on the 3e Vehicles arm motor
table that shows TL12 robotic muscles lift roughly a hundred times
normal human muscles.)

Anyway, as I was saying, this makes it all the more difficult for me
to make Marvel characters fit into GURPS. Being generous, we might
assume that Hulk has the musculature of a ST 20 man, modified to ST 30
by his +1 SM. Even then, according to the formula loosely ripped from
3e Vehicles, it would seem that those huge muscles shouldn't be able
to produce more than ST 100.

This, in the end, will severely limit my "realistic" adaptations of
any super hero character that does the fabulous things shown in the
comic books. I think I'm just babling now... nevermind. :) 

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 7:48:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

For "Unstoppable" (4th edition) buy Basic Move with the Cosmic enhancement.
For Marvel's Juggernaut use lower end Cosmic and add an Innate Attack
(Corrosion or Crushing Cosmic) to allow him to destroy anything in front of
him (eventually).

Easy.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 12:42:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:48:57 -0700, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>For "Unstoppable" (4th edition) buy Basic Move with the Cosmic enhancement.

Wow, cool idea! :) 

>For Marvel's Juggernaut use lower end Cosmic and add an Innate Attack
>(Corrosion or Crushing Cosmic) to allow him to destroy anything in front of
>him (eventually).

I'm still not sure if I wanna use a damaging field like that (though
it might be the only option). Do you think that Linking the Innate
Attack damage to the Cosmic-enhanced Basic Move would help?

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 1:18:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:48:57 -0700, Jefferson
> <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>For "Unstoppable" (4th edition) buy Basic Move with the Cosmic enhancement.
>
> Wow, cool idea! :) 
>
>>For Marvel's Juggernaut use lower end Cosmic and add an Innate Attack
>>(Corrosion or Crushing Cosmic) to allow him to destroy anything in front of
>>him (eventually).
>
> I'm still not sure if I wanna use a damaging field like that (though
> it might be the only option). Do you think that Linking the Innate
> Attack damage to the Cosmic-enhanced Basic Move would help?

Not really. The problem comes from when he's dumped in concrete or the like.
You might buy a minscule amount of movement with Cosmic +300% for cases like
that, and buy more move with just Cosmic +50% to represent his ability to walk
through ordinary obstacles, Binding, and knockback.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 1:23:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:56:41 -0600, "Tom A."
<meteoricshipyards@yahoo.com> wrote:

[...]
>> I'd go for a HUGE amount of ST, and DR, plus [4th Ed.] a SM of +1 or
>> +2.
>> In 3rd ed., I'd add Increased Density.
>
>Sorry, don't have my 4e with me -- what's SM?

Size Modifier.
It's a... Uh... Let's say a 0-point feature. Can be 0 for humans, or
positive or negative.

Being BIG lets you buy ST with -10% at point cost per size modifier...
Because if you're as big as a two-story house, you cannot use your ST
with the same versatility as a normal human.
You can use a SM of +4 to build a Tyrannosaurus, for Example, or +5 to
build a sentient semi-truck... Just add "machine meta-trait",
"horizontal", "no legs: wheeled", and LOTS of "payload"...


Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 1:23:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:45:42 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

[...]
>>I'd go for a HUGE amount of ST, and DR, plus [4th Ed.] a SM of +1 or
>>+2.
>>In 3rd ed., I'd add Increased Density.
>
>I think Juggernaut's like 8'10" or something (about +1 SM). He does
>seem to be overly wide as well, so that might boost it up to +2 SM.

It is +1 or +2 according to the writer AND the artist... :p 
In Ultimates he interacts more or less normally with things made for
ordinary people, so it's 0 or +1.
Older writers depicted him as a real giant, +1 to +2.

>>"Unstoppable" is just a nickname, not a real power... The Hulk IS able
>>to stop him!
>
>Well, going by the MSH RPG writeup, I believe he's a Class-1000 force
>to be stopped. The same RPG says Hulk's strength tops out at Shift-Z,
>I think, but the comics tend to continuously re-define stuff anyway.

In the Marvel Encyclopedia it said once (I saw a really OLD version)
that the "effortless lift" of the Juggernaut was "over 100 tons",
while The Hulk was "over 80 tons"... But The Hulk has also the power
of boost his ST by mere rage...

[...]
>For example, assuming 3e Vehicles data was roughly scientific, it
>provides us with a maximum realistic ST. Going by that, we know that
>even with super-strength, the most you can do is triple the ST of a
>given mass of muscle. (This is based on the 3e Vehicles arm motor
>table that shows TL12 robotic muscles lift roughly a hundred times
>normal human muscles.)

>Anyway, as I was saying, this makes it all the more difficult for me
>to make Marvel characters fit into GURPS. Being generous, we might
>assume that Hulk has the musculature of a ST 20 man, modified to ST 30
>by his +1 SM. Even then, according to the formula loosely ripped from
>3e Vehicles, it would seem that those huge muscles shouldn't be able
>to produce more than ST 100.
[...]

I'm sorry, but if you go into superhero genre, you have to start from
the fact they defy normal laws of nature: they are able to create HUGE
amounts of energy and/or matter from nothing: lasers, ST,
regeneration, telekinesis...

If you want a "realistic" superhero genre, go for (certain versions
of) Batman, or The League Of Extraordinary Gentleman (the COMIC!).

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 4:00:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 22:18:54 -0700, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Not really. The problem comes from when he's dumped in concrete or the like.
>You might buy a minscule amount of movement with Cosmic +300% for cases like
>that, and buy more move with just Cosmic +50% to represent his ability to walk
>through ordinary obstacles, Binding, and knockback.
>
>Jefferson
>http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

Hah! Beat ya to it! :) 

According to the Campaigns book, Slam damage = HP * velocity / 100, so
I added the extra cost of Cosmic (irresistible attack, +300%) to half
of his Basic Move 6, for a total of 45 points. That gives him roughly
1d of Slam damage that is continuous (because his velocity of 3 is,
Cosmically perpetual).

Now the tough part is deciding how to mimic invulnerability. The MSH
game says he's got 1,000 forcefield backed up by 100 armor, so he's
not quite invulnerable (though effectively so on the MSH game scale).
I figure that he'd have at least 10,000 DR, and that's just a wee bit
too much for me to deal with!

So, as was suggested before, perhaps Insubstantiality would work. I'm
considering Accessibility (only against damage, -??%) to represent how
he can still be touched and he can't float around like a ghost. Does
that sound good? How about -30 percent?

Still, using Insubstantiality makes it sound like tank shells would go
through him instead of blowing up when they hit him. Darn, I hope
there's a solution to this in a future book...

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 4:00:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:23:50 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>It is +1 or +2 according to the writer AND the artist... :p 
>In Ultimates he interacts more or less normally with things made for
>ordinary people, so it's 0 or +1.
>Older writers depicted him as a real giant, +1 to +2.

I was wrong: he's only 6'10"! However, he does weight 900 pounds, and
he's significantly wider than the average human. All this seems to
point to SM +1, especially based on his original appearance.

Hulk, also, is only SM +1. Though he's a little taller than
Juggernaut, he's even wider (and really weird-looking too), and weighs
1,040 pounds in his traditional green form (and 900 gray).


>In the Marvel Encyclopedia it said once (I saw a really OLD version)
>that the "effortless lift" of the Juggernaut was "over 100 tons",
>while The Hulk was "over 80 tons"... But The Hulk has also the power
>of boost his ST by mere rage...

Hulk's ST keeps getting greater and greater, but at least he can't
blow out a star like Superman... yet. :)  The MSH RPG lists Juggernaut
as having Unearthly strength (100 tons), and Hulk at Monstrous (80
tons), though he can go up 3 classes to Shift-Y (unlisted), I believe,
with rage. I really don't know if Juggernaut's stats are official
though, since I don't actually have them in a MSH book.


>I'm sorry, but if you go into superhero genre, you have to start from
>the fact they defy normal laws of nature: they are able to create HUGE
>amounts of energy and/or matter from nothing: lasers, ST,
>regeneration, telekinesis...

In the case of Juggernaut, it's a little easier to write things off as
being mystical enhancements, since we don't have a set of physics to
govern magical energies. But characters like Hulk and the X-Men tend
to operate on exaggerated version of real-world science and phenomena.

My adaptation of the Marvel universe is meant to be a down-to-earth
version, that players and GMs can "upgrade" if they want more power.
I think that's better than having to trim down a powerful character,
and end up short-circuiting their skills and essential abilities.

For example, though I'm a firm believer in Doctor Doom having an IQ of
19 or so, my limited version gives him only a 15, plus Gadgeteer and
perhaps High TL.


>If you want a "realistic" superhero genre, go for (certain versions
>of) Batman, or The League Of Extraordinary Gentleman (the COMIC!).

I'm also in the process of converting a "down-to-earth" version of the
Batman characters from the DCU RPG. In fact, I'd say almost all of my
creations are underpowered. The first Doctor Who only has IQ 15,
which in my opinion is plenty. By the 7th Doc, it's only up to 17.

My problem is that I'm trying to adapt or convert a dozen different
genres at the same time. I've begun everything from G.I. Joe to Star
Trek, but finished hardly any! :) 

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 4:00:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> According to the Campaigns book, Slam damage = HP * velocity / 100, so
> I added the extra cost of Cosmic (irresistible attack, +300%) to half
> of his Basic Move 6, for a total of 45 points. That gives him roughly
> 1d of Slam damage that is continuous (because his velocity of 3 is,
> Cosmically perpetual).

Too much. It took him 3+ months to get out of a concrete foundation, and
wouldn't have taken more than a day at move 3.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 8:07:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:08:02 -0700, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Too much. It took him 3+ months to get out of a concrete foundation, and
>wouldn't have taken more than a day at move 3.

Any idea which issue of what comic that was? That just sounds too
funny to miss!

Originally, I'd only planned on making 1 of his Move levels Cosmic.
Thinking about it again, it might be best to scrap the MSH notion of
"...anything greater slows him to [half speed]" and instead just make
it slow him to 1 Move. That would lower the Slam damage even more.

Alternatively, the 3-month concrete incident might have been because
he was simply unable to *start* moving, and instead had to use is own
ST to slowly grind his way free... ?

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 9:32:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:00:47 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 22:18:54 -0700, Jefferson
><Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>Not really. The problem comes from when he's dumped in concrete or the like.
>>You might buy a minscule amount of movement with Cosmic +300% for cases like
>>that, and buy more move with just Cosmic +50% to represent his ability to walk
>>through ordinary obstacles, Binding, and knockback.
>>
>>Jefferson
>>http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
>
>Hah! Beat ya to it! :) 
>
>According to the Campaigns book, Slam damage = HP * velocity / 100, so
>I added the extra cost of Cosmic (irresistible attack, +300%) to half
>of his Basic Move 6, for a total of 45 points. That gives him roughly
>1d of Slam damage that is continuous (because his velocity of 3 is,
>Cosmically perpetual).
>
>Now the tough part is deciding how to mimic invulnerability. The MSH
>game says he's got 1,000 forcefield backed up by 100 armor, so he's
>not quite invulnerable (though effectively so on the MSH game scale).
>I figure that he'd have at least 10,000 DR, and that's just a wee bit
>too much for me to deal with!

Juggernaut is himself a bit too much for GURPS to deal with.
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 10:48:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:00:48 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

[...]
>I was wrong: he's only 6'10"! However, he does weight 900 pounds, and
>he's significantly wider than the average human. All this seems to
>point to SM +1, especially based on his original appearance.

>Hulk, also, is only SM +1. Though he's a little taller than
>Juggernaut, he's even wider (and really weird-looking too), and weighs
>1,040 pounds in his traditional green form (and 900 gray).

I'm sure I saw at least one comic with The Juggernaut a bit taller
than The Hulk (in the Pantheon Saga, maybe?).
It's up to the writer and/or artist... ^^;

[...]
>>I'm sorry, but if you go into superhero genre, you have to start from
>>the fact they defy normal laws of nature: they are able to create HUGE
>>amounts of energy and/or matter from nothing: lasers, ST,
>>regeneration, telekinesis...
>
>In the case of Juggernaut, it's a little easier to write things off as
>being mystical enhancements, since we don't have a set of physics to
>govern magical energies. But characters like Hulk and the X-Men tend
>to operate on exaggerated version of real-world science and phenomena.
>
>My adaptation of the Marvel universe is meant to be a down-to-earth
>version, that players and GMs can "upgrade" if they want more power.

That's another thing. ^_________^
If you want to do that, go for it. I think it could be really
"user-friendly".

[...]
>My problem is that I'm trying to adapt or convert a dozen different
>genres at the same time. I've begun everything from G.I. Joe to Star
>Trek, but finished hardly any! :) 

I was tempted to convert Optimus Prime from Transformers (Generation 1
or Armada, dunno), when I saw GURPS 4th ed.
Damage Resistance, Size Modifier, Machine Meta-Trait, Payload, Innate
Attack (transformers NEVER lose their blaster!), the new rules on
Alternate Form (in which he should have Horizontal: wheeled).
The stats for a semi-truck are also already included in the Basic Set.
Also, HP depend on ST now... Job almost done!

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 10:48:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:48:00 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>I was tempted to convert Optimus Prime from Transformers (Generation 1
>or Armada, dunno), when I saw GURPS 4th ed.
>Damage Resistance, Size Modifier, Machine Meta-Trait, Payload, Innate
>Attack (transformers NEVER lose their blaster!), the new rules on
>Alternate Form (in which he should have Horizontal: wheeled).
>The stats for a semi-truck are also already included in the Basic Set.
>Also, HP depend on ST now... Job almost done!

I just used the Tech Specs to get base human-sized stats for all the
year-one Transformers, but like most of my stuff, I never finished it.
I'm still waiting to get very specific measurements of the G1 toys so
I can determine exactly what the robot heights are (in proportion to
their real-world vehicle lengths).

Once that happens, I can determine what their appropriate ST-to-mass
ratios should be, and thereby know what to buy their Move to. What I
was surprised to learn a while back was how most vehicles are light
enough to float if sealed -- I figure the TFs are just a light as
flesh-and-blood creatures the same size, roughly.

This same topic also started me on my physics-based damage
calculations, mostly so I could accurately calculate Devastator's
punch! :)  Unfortunately, that's not on my site right now; I'm
checking my proposed fixes against 4e's new improvements.

In case you're interested in my fragmentary work, here's my website...
http://webpages.charter.net/akahige

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 12:30:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:23:50 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
> Duval) wrote:
>
>
>>It is +1 or +2 according to the writer AND the artist... :p 
>>In Ultimates he interacts more or less normally with things made for
>>ordinary people, so it's 0 or +1.
>>Older writers depicted him as a real giant, +1 to +2.
>
>
> I was wrong: he's only 6'10"! However, he does weight 900 pounds, and
> he's significantly wider than the average human. All this seems to
> point to SM +1, especially based on his original appearance.
>
> Hulk, also, is only SM +1. Though he's a little taller than
> Juggernaut, he's even wider (and really weird-looking too), and weighs
> 1,040 pounds in his traditional green form (and 900 gray).
>
>
>
>>In the Marvel Encyclopedia it said once (I saw a really OLD version)
>>that the "effortless lift" of the Juggernaut was "over 100 tons",
>>while The Hulk was "over 80 tons"... But The Hulk has also the power
>>of boost his ST by mere rage...
>
>
> Hulk's ST keeps getting greater and greater, but at least he can't
> blow out a star like Superman... yet. :)  The MSH RPG lists Juggernaut
> as having Unearthly strength (100 tons), and Hulk at Monstrous (80
> tons), though he can go up 3 classes to Shift-Y (unlisted), I believe,
> with rage. I really don't know if Juggernaut's stats are official
> though, since I don't actually have them in a MSH book.
>
>
In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group. It
wasn't easy but he did hold it up long enough for Thor to destroy the
mountain with Mjolnir.

>
>>I'm sorry, but if you go into superhero genre, you have to start from
>>the fact they defy normal laws of nature: they are able to create HUGE
>>amounts of energy and/or matter from nothing: lasers, ST,
>>regeneration, telekinesis...
>
>
> In the case of Juggernaut, it's a little easier to write things off as
> being mystical enhancements, since we don't have a set of physics to
> govern magical energies. But characters like Hulk and the X-Men tend
> to operate on exaggerated version of real-world science and phenomena.
>
> My adaptation of the Marvel universe is meant to be a down-to-earth
> version, that players and GMs can "upgrade" if they want more power.
> I think that's better than having to trim down a powerful character,
> and end up short-circuiting their skills and essential abilities.
>
> For example, though I'm a firm believer in Doctor Doom having an IQ of
> 19 or so, my limited version gives him only a 15, plus Gadgeteer and
> perhaps High TL.
>
>
>
>>If you want a "realistic" superhero genre, go for (certain versions
>>of) Batman, or The League Of Extraordinary Gentleman (the COMIC!).
>
>
> I'm also in the process of converting a "down-to-earth" version of the
> Batman characters from the DCU RPG. In fact, I'd say almost all of my
> creations are underpowered. The first Doctor Who only has IQ 15,
> which in my opinion is plenty. By the 7th Doc, it's only up to 17.
>
> My problem is that I'm trying to adapt or convert a dozen different
> genres at the same time. I've begun everything from G.I. Joe to Star
> Trek, but finished hardly any! :) 
>
> -- M.J.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 12:30:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
<mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
>mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group. It
>wasn't easy but he did hold it up long enough for Thor to destroy the
>mountain with Mjolnir.

I think that's probably one of those examples like Superman's breath
being able to blow out the fire of a star. Though I do like heroes
and monsters that can battle tanks and such, it makes a more
believable story if they give them reasonable limits.

There's no reason that Godzilla should be so invulnerable, unless his
biology somehow integrates super-strong materials into his structure.
Perhaps this could be done with the assistance of nanites, but other
than that, he should be as vulnerable as the yucky American one.

Same with Hulk. The movie's nanite explanation is good, except for
the part about him constantly chaning back and forth, which is quite
unrealistic when one questions where the extra mass comes from.

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:01:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
<mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Red Beard wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:23:50 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
>> Duval) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It is +1 or +2 according to the writer AND the artist... :p 
>>>In Ultimates he interacts more or less normally with things made for
>>>ordinary people, so it's 0 or +1.
>>>Older writers depicted him as a real giant, +1 to +2.
>>
>>
>> I was wrong: he's only 6'10"! However, he does weight 900 pounds, and
>> he's significantly wider than the average human. All this seems to
>> point to SM +1, especially based on his original appearance.
>>
>> Hulk, also, is only SM +1. Though he's a little taller than
>> Juggernaut, he's even wider (and really weird-looking too), and weighs
>> 1,040 pounds in his traditional green form (and 900 gray).
>>
>>
>>
>>>In the Marvel Encyclopedia it said once (I saw a really OLD version)
>>>that the "effortless lift" of the Juggernaut was "over 100 tons",
>>>while The Hulk was "over 80 tons"... But The Hulk has also the power
>>>of boost his ST by mere rage...
>>
>>
>> Hulk's ST keeps getting greater and greater, but at least he can't
>> blow out a star like Superman... yet. :)  The MSH RPG lists Juggernaut
>> as having Unearthly strength (100 tons), and Hulk at Monstrous (80
>> tons), though he can go up 3 classes to Shift-Y (unlisted), I believe,
>> with rage. I really don't know if Juggernaut's stats are official
>> though, since I don't actually have them in a MSH book.
>>
>>
>In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
>mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group.

He didn't hold up the whole mountain, just the part of it that was
over his head.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:26:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
> <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Red Beard wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:23:50 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
>>>Duval) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is +1 or +2 according to the writer AND the artist... :p 
>>>>In Ultimates he interacts more or less normally with things made for
>>>>ordinary people, so it's 0 or +1.
>>>>Older writers depicted him as a real giant, +1 to +2.
>>>
>>>
>>>I was wrong: he's only 6'10"! However, he does weight 900 pounds, and
>>>he's significantly wider than the average human. All this seems to
>>>point to SM +1, especially based on his original appearance.
>>>
>>>Hulk, also, is only SM +1. Though he's a little taller than
>>>Juggernaut, he's even wider (and really weird-looking too), and weighs
>>>1,040 pounds in his traditional green form (and 900 gray).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In the Marvel Encyclopedia it said once (I saw a really OLD version)
>>>>that the "effortless lift" of the Juggernaut was "over 100 tons",
>>>>while The Hulk was "over 80 tons"... But The Hulk has also the power
>>>>of boost his ST by mere rage...
>>>
>>>
>>>Hulk's ST keeps getting greater and greater, but at least he can't
>>>blow out a star like Superman... yet. :)  The MSH RPG lists Juggernaut
>>>as having Unearthly strength (100 tons), and Hulk at Monstrous (80
>>>tons), though he can go up 3 classes to Shift-Y (unlisted), I believe,
>>>with rage. I really don't know if Juggernaut's stats are official
>>>though, since I don't actually have them in a MSH book.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
>>mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group.
>
>
> He didn't hold up the whole mountain, just the part of it that was
> over his head.

The drawings made it seem that it was a very large piece of the mountain
as the rest of the group was trapped under there with him. I could go
back to the comics but I don't think that is important. Either way the
amount he was holding was many thousands of tons.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:29:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:08:02 -0700, Jefferson
><Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Too much. It took him 3+ months to get out of a concrete foundation, and
>>wouldn't have taken more than a day at move 3.
>>
>>
>
>Any idea which issue of what comic that was? That just sounds too
>funny to miss!
>
>Originally, I'd only planned on making 1 of his Move levels Cosmic.
>Thinking about it again, it might be best to scrap the MSH notion of
>"...anything greater slows him to [half speed]" and instead just make
>it slow him to 1 Move. That would lower the Slam damage even more.
>
>Alternatively, the 3-month concrete incident might have been because
>he was simply unable to *start* moving, and instead had to use is own
>ST to slowly grind his way free... ?
>
>-- M.J.
>
>
How did he breath? Or survive without water or food? Or am I
applying too much logic here...?

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:29:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:

> How did he breath? Or survive without water or food? Or am I applying
> too much logic here...?

Among his minor abilities Juggernaut doesn't need to eat, drink, breathe, or
sleep (though he enjoys all of them except, possibly, breathing). I imagine
he's also unaffected by pressure.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:50:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Michael W. Ryder <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>> <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
>>>mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group.

>> He didn't hold up the whole mountain, just the part of it that was
>> over his head.

>The drawings made it seem that it was a very large piece of the mountain
>as the rest of the group was trapped under there with him. I could go
>back to the comics but I don't think that is important. Either way the
>amount he was holding was many thousands of tons.

Yeah. It was a lot of friggin' rock, no matter how you count it
up. To be fair, though, the Hulk was pretty pissed, in part
because Reed Richards deliberately antagonized him so the Hulk
would be strong enough to keep them all alive. Which probably
goes down in the history books as the only incident in Marvel
history in which pissing off the Hulk led to an increase in
your chances of survival.

Pete
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:54:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@hotpop.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:08:02 -0700, Jefferson
><Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>>Too much. It took him 3+ months to get out of a concrete foundation, and
>>wouldn't have taken more than a day at move 3.

>Any idea which issue of what comic that was? That just sounds too
>funny to miss!

If I remember correctly, encasing him in the concrete was the
end to one comic, and him bursting out of the concrete was the
beginning of another, several months later. I'm pretty sure he
was tricked into the concrete in an issue of Marvel Team-Up,
but I have no idea what comic he came out in.

>Alternatively, the 3-month concrete incident might have been because
>he was simply unable to *start* moving, and instead had to use is own
>ST to slowly grind his way free... ?

That could work. Nothing can stop him once he starts moving,
but as far as I know if you can immobilize him when he's standing
still you "only" have to deal with his normal ridiculous strength,
not his literally unstoppable ability to keep moving. Honestly,
that explanation is probably the only way to make his 3 month
imprisonment in concrete make any sense at all, compared to
the way his powers have been portrayed in other appearances.

Pete
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 2:54:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Peter Meilinger wrote:
> Red Beard <Akahige@hotpop.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:08:02 -0700, Jefferson
>><Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>>Too much. It took him 3+ months to get out of a concrete foundation, and
>>>wouldn't have taken more than a day at move 3.
>
>>Any idea which issue of what comic that was? That just sounds too
>>funny to miss!
>
> If I remember correctly, encasing him in the concrete was the
> end to one comic, and him bursting out of the concrete was the
> beginning of another, several months later. I'm pretty sure he
> was tricked into the concrete in an issue of Marvel Team-Up,
> but I have no idea what comic he came out in.

Yep. That's it. It might have been a team-up, but Spiderman was the one who
dropped him in the concrete. I don't think it was a team-up though, since I
remember Spiderman watching the foundation by himself at the end. Sorry, I
don't know the title or issue, but it would have been from the mid to late
1980's. If it helps, this issue was the first where Juggernaut's helmet was
welded to his armor. I don't recall the issue he reappeared at all, but I'm
pretty sure Spiderman wasn't involved.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 8:39:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 23:29:33 -0500, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Red Beard wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:08:02 -0700, Jefferson
>><Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Too much. It took him 3+ months to get out of a concrete foundation, and
>>>wouldn't have taken more than a day at move 3.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Any idea which issue of what comic that was? That just sounds too
>>funny to miss!
>>
>>Originally, I'd only planned on making 1 of his Move levels Cosmic.
>>Thinking about it again, it might be best to scrap the MSH notion of
>>"...anything greater slows him to [half speed]" and instead just make
>>it slow him to 1 Move. That would lower the Slam damage even more.
>>
>>Alternatively, the 3-month concrete incident might have been because
>>he was simply unable to *start* moving, and instead had to use is own
>>ST to slowly grind his way free... ?
>>
>>-- M.J.
>>
>>
> How did he breath? Or survive without water or food? Or am I
>applying too much logic here...?

Juggernaut doesn't need air, water or food.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 12:17:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

> >>In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
> >>mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group.
> >
> >
> > He didn't hold up the whole mountain, just the part of it that was
> > over his head.
>
> The drawings made it seem that it was a very large piece of the mountain
> as the rest of the group was trapped under there with him. I could go
> back to the comics but I don't think that is important. Either way the
> amount he was holding was many thousands of tons.

One might theorize that he wasn't actually *supporting* the
weight of the entire mountain. It had indeed come to rest;
perhaps he was just applying enough force in the right direction
that the pocket they were in remained open. Leverage and all?
Obviously it would still take huge amounts of strength, but, well,
Hulk's got that. :) 

--Neon Fox
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 1:42:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:59:59 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>>I was tempted to convert Optimus Prime from Transformers (Generation 1
>>or Armada, dunno), when I saw GURPS 4th ed.
[...]
>I just used the Tech Specs to get base human-sized stats for all the
>year-one Transformers, but like most of my stuff, I never finished it.
>I'm still waiting to get very specific measurements of the G1 toys so
>I can determine exactly what the robot heights are (in proportion to
>their real-world vehicle lengths).

Real-world vehicles should be easy to get, and then you can calculate
by approximations (is this spelled right?) their robot height.
In the TV series (G1) they really don't respect proportions, however.
Parts of their body shrink or stretch, and obviously the toys cannot.

As for Armada, I think data should be easily found. At least, in the
PS2 videogame they should be in the instruction booklet. I'll look for
them. Are you interested?

In the videogame, they're also "Sealed" (4th Ed. advantage). Don't
know in the TV series.

>Once that happens, I can determine what their appropriate ST-to-mass
>ratios should be, and thereby know what to buy their Move to. What I
>was surprised to learn a while back was how most vehicles are light
>enough to float if sealed -- I figure the TFs are just a light as
>flesh-and-blood creatures the same size, roughly.

Or just a bit more than their vehicle counterpart (for extra
equipment), maybe?
20% more, may I suggest?

>This same topic also started me on my physics-based damage
>calculations, mostly so I could accurately calculate Devastator's
>punch! :) 

I suppose it goes REALLY high... He's able to ram a building down with
no effort. I suppose the damage should be comparable to (or even more
than) a big modern cannon shot.

>Unfortunately, that's not on my site right now; I'm
>checking my proposed fixes against 4e's new improvements.
>
>In case you're interested in my fragmentary work, here's my website...
>http://webpages.charter.net/akahige

You betcha!
I'm gonna see it ASAP!

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 1:42:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:42:29 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>Or just a bit more than their vehicle counterpart (for extra
>equipment), maybe?
>20% more, may I suggest?

I don't really think it's necessary because they're obviously made of
stronger and lighter materials, since they can conceal all those robot
parts in the door panels and undercarriage of their vehicle forms, and
still weigh the same as other cars. Can you imagine Optimus Prime
getting a ticket for being 20% over at the scales? :D 


>I suppose it goes REALLY high... He's able to ram a building down with
>no effort. I suppose the damage should be comparable to (or even more
>than) a big modern cannon shot.

Well, I don't want to make it too cinematic, either. Provided I dug
up the right calculations, I figure the following for Omega Supreme...

Omega Supreme (SM +6)
ST 384; DX 8; IQ 10; HT 15
attacks ~ 0.2 per second
damage ~ 112d
Move 40

Devastator should be a little less than that, being that he's made of
six SM +4 robots. (Yes, I'm assuming the Constructicons are bigger
than Optimus Prime, regardless of how I dislike the idea.)


>You betcha!
>I'm gonna see it ASAP!

There's not much to the TFs other than very basic stats yet, so don't
say I didn't warn you! :) 


-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 1:47:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:59:59 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

[...]
>In case you're interested in my fragmentary work, here's my website...
>http://webpages.charter.net/akahige

It seems the Transformers link is not working... ^^;

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 1:47:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:47:43 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>It seems the Transformers link is not working... ^^;

http://webpages.charter.net/akahige/GURPS/Transformers/...

Try that directly. Right now, they just have their four basic
attributes, not even adjusted for size. But they do have their
tech-spec descriptions.

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 1:50:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Neon Fox wrote:
> One might theorize that he wasn't actually *supporting* the
> weight of the entire mountain. It had indeed come to rest;
> perhaps he was just applying enough force in the right direction
> that the pocket they were in remained open. Leverage and all?
> Obviously it would still take huge amounts of strength, but, well,
> Hulk's got that. :) 

That is *exactly* what was said about it. The exchange went something
like this:

"Hulk! Even YOU can't hold up an entire mountain!"

"I'm not. I'm just bracing it."

I am almost ashamed that I know that.
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 9:17:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <f1a5ddb5.0412030917.3ef4929a@posting.google.com>,
Neon Fox <neonfox@volcanomail.com> wrote:
>> >>In one of the Secret Wars series (many years ago) Hulk held up a
>> >>mountain that had been dropped on him and others in his group.
>> >
>> >
>> > He didn't hold up the whole mountain, just the part of it that was
>> > over his head.
>>
>> The drawings made it seem that it was a very large piece of the mountain
>> as the rest of the group was trapped under there with him. I could go
>> back to the comics but I don't think that is important. Either way the
>> amount he was holding was many thousands of tons.
>
>One might theorize that he wasn't actually *supporting* the
>weight of the entire mountain. It had indeed come to rest;
>perhaps he was just applying enough force in the right direction
>that the pocket they were in remained open. Leverage and all?
>Obviously it would still take huge amounts of strength, but, well,
>Hulk's got that. :) 
>
>--Neon Fox

I didn't read the comic. But to pull some numbers out of my butt, suppose
a chunk of granite 100 meters on a side for 2.6e9 kg. And feet with a
combined surface area of 1000 cm^2 (he has very big feet). That's a foot
pressure of 2.6e6 kgf/cm^2 on the bedrock below. Granite has a
compressive strength of about 1000 kgf/cm^2. He ain't going to hold up
that mountain, and it doesn't matter how strong he is.

--
"What are the possibilities of small but movable machines? They may or
may not be useful, but they surely would be fun to make."
-- Richard P. Feynman, 1959
Anonymous
December 4, 2004 2:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:24:38 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:


I shift to another thread, so that, should anyone be interested...

[Weight of Transformers]
>>Or just a bit more than their vehicle counterpart (for extra
>>equipment), maybe?
>>20% more, may I suggest?
>
>I don't really think it's necessary because they're obviously made of
>stronger and lighter materials, since they can conceal all those robot
>parts in the door panels and undercarriage of their vehicle forms, and
>still weigh the same as other cars.

Yeah, it could work that way.
Also, some of them NEED the Shrinking Advantage: Soundwave, Megatron,
et al. could be carried with no effort by a normal human.
In G1 they altered their height and weight as part of tranformation,
in Armada it seems a bit more "realistic".

>Can you imagine Optimus Prime
>getting a ticket for being 20% over at the scales? :D 

A ticket? Sorry, I didn't get the joke... :( 

>>I suppose it goes REALLY high... He's able to ram a building down with
>>no effort. I suppose the damage should be comparable to (or even more
>>than) a big modern cannon shot.
>
>Well, I don't want to make it too cinematic, either. Provided I dug
>up the right calculations, I figure the following for Omega Supreme...

>Omega Supreme (SM +6)
>ST 384; DX 8; IQ 10; HT 15
>attacks ~ 0.2 per second
>damage ~ 112d
>Move 40

I think the ST is A BIT over the playable values... ^^;

>Devastator should be a little less than that, being that he's made of
>six SM +4 robots. (Yes, I'm assuming the Constructicons are bigger
>than Optimus Prime, regardless of how I dislike the idea.)

In fact, they should be more or less Optimus size each, taking in
account their vehicle form.

>>You betcha!
>>I'm gonna see it ASAP!
>
>There's not much to the TFs other than very basic stats yet, so don't
>say I didn't warn you! :) 

No problem.
I saw your site... I'd only say Wolverine needs AT LEAST Regeneration
[100]... Poor boy!

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 4, 2004 2:34:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Korin Duval wrote:

> Yeah, it could work that way.
> Also, some of them NEED the Shrinking Advantage: Soundwave, Megatron,
> et al. could be carried with no effort by a normal human.
> In G1 they altered their height and weight as part of tranformation,
> in Armada it seems a bit more "realistic".

In 4e as near as I can tell Shapeshifting can include different size
modifiers as part of the Alternate Form cost. This is pretty much
compensated for by the fact that you normally have only a limited number of
forms, thus a limited number of sizes you can turn into.


>> Can you imagine Optimus Prime
>> getting a ticket for being 20% over at the scales? :D 
>
> A ticket? Sorry, I didn't get the joke... :( 

A fine (or rather, a ticke is technically just a note telling you where you
can pay the fine). It's what the police give you when they catch you
speeding, or when they catch a 10 ton truck overloaded to 12 tons.


>> Omega Supreme (SM +6)
>> ST 384; DX 8; IQ 10; HT 15
>> attacks ~ 0.2 per second
>> damage ~ 112d
>> Move 40
>
> I think the ST is A BIT over the playable values... ^^;

In 4th Edition, definately. I put a ST Conversion chart up on my website,
which uses the suggested weights from GURPS Update (with a bit of fudging
to create weight ranges):
http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland/pdf/STChart.pdf
Using the weight guidelines the largest Dinosaurs only come in at around
100 ST.


>> Devastator should be a little less than that, being that he's made of
>> six SM +4 robots. (Yes, I'm assuming the Constructicons are bigger
>> than Optimus Prime, regardless of how I dislike the idea.)
>
> In fact, they should be more or less Optimus size each, taking in
> account their vehicle form.

Different size modifiers for different forms. Optimus' main body isn't as
large as his trailer.


>> There's not much to the TFs other than very basic stats yet, so don't
>> say I didn't warn you! :) 
>
> No problem.
> I saw your site... I'd only say Wolverine needs AT LEAST Regeneration
> [100]... Poor boy!

As an asside, a long time ago I found a document on the 'net called GURPS
Super Robots, which was all about doing Transformer style Robots in 3e,
pre-Compendium I. The document probably doesn't have much to offer rules
wise these days, but by far the coolest part was the cover that the guy had
come up with (unfortunatly I have *NO* idea who wrote the thing). I've
dropped the cover pic on my website for now if anyoen is interested:
http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland/images/SupRobot.jpg


--
_ _ _ http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland
|_ ,_ . _ |_> (_` _ . _|_ |_
|_ | | (_ |_> __) ||| | | | | @earthling.net

Thoughts good! Slogans bad! Thoughts good! Slogans bad!
Anonymous
December 6, 2004 2:13:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:34:47 GMT, "Eric B. Smith"
<smithericb@hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]
>> Also, some of them NEED the Shrinking Advantage: Soundwave, Megatron,
>> et al. could be carried with no effort by a normal human.
>> In G1 they altered their height and weight as part of tranformation,
>> in Armada it seems a bit more "realistic".
>
>In 4e as near as I can tell Shapeshifting can include different size
>modifiers as part of the Alternate Form cost. This is pretty much
>compensated for by the fact that you normally have only a limited number of
>forms, thus a limited number of sizes you can turn into.

Yes, but the two above surely need Shrinking 'cause they could fit in
another Transformer's hands OR a human being's, without transforming.
Megatron's gun form was used both by his fellows and at least once by
a human.

>>> Can you imagine Optimus Prime
>>> getting a ticket for being 20% over at the scales? :D 
>>
>> A ticket? Sorry, I didn't get the joke... :( 
>
>A fine (or rather, a ticke is technically just a note telling you where you
>can pay the fine). It's what the police give you when they catch you
>speeding, or when they catch a 10 ton truck overloaded to 12 tons.

OH! Now I got it! ^___________________^

[...]
>>> Devastator should be a little less than that, being that he's made of
>>> six SM +4 robots. (Yes, I'm assuming the Constructicons are bigger
>>> than Optimus Prime, regardless of how I dislike the idea.)
>>
>> In fact, they should be more or less Optimus size each, taking in
>> account their vehicle form.
>
>Different size modifiers for different forms. Optimus' main body isn't as
>large as his trailer.

The main question is: should we take measurements basing on appearance
of robot body (which is subject to morphing, shrinking, etc.?), or
should we go into realistic transformation (using proportions of the
toys and comparing them by the size of the vehicle form?

[...]
>As an asside, a long time ago I found a document on the 'net called GURPS
>Super Robots, which was all about doing Transformer style Robots in 3e,
>pre-Compendium I. The document probably doesn't have much to offer rules
>wise these days, but by far the coolest part was the cover that the guy had
>come up with (unfortunatly I have *NO* idea who wrote the thing). I've
>dropped the cover pic on my website for now if anyoen is interested:
>http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland/images/SupRobot.jpg

I'll go and see.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
December 6, 2004 6:56:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:13:21 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>Yes, but the two above surely need Shrinking 'cause they could fit in
>another Transformer's hands OR a human being's, without transforming.
>Megatron's gun form was used both by his fellows and at least once by
>a human.

They say that in the upcoming live-action movie, Megatron's not going
to be a gun. I can't picture him as anything else. The stainless P38
was a terrific symbol of power, much better than a purple tank.


>The main question is: should we take measurements basing on appearance
>of robot body (which is subject to morphing, shrinking, etc.?), or
>should we go into realistic transformation (using proportions of the
>toys and comparing them by the size of the vehicle form?

First, the cartoon shows them drawn in all kinds of shapes and sizes,
sometimes even different between camera shots -- this does not mean
that they were shrinking and growing every second, but rather that
there was nothing like CGI to standardize the animation.

Personally, I think it's obvious that the "true" Decepticons were the
ones with the ability to shrink into objects that would deceive. That
means that all the other Transformers had non-shrinking vehicle forms,
including all of the jets. The jets weren't "Decpticons" per se, but
were simply recruited for their firepower.

So, to get back to the point...

Constructicons are certainly larger than Optimus Prime as a truck, and
even as a robot, though his combat deck would probably tip the odds
back in his favor. Prime is probably 20 feet long as a tractor, while
construction vehicles are usually larger and heavier than that.

Though it's possible that everyone joining the Decpticon faction was
given a special shrinking device, I think it's much more probable that
vehicle-type characters transform into vehicle-sized robots, with few
or no exceptions.

Oh, and I also updated my TF GURPS page a bit. It should no be
accessible from the main page, and actually has one character statted
in near-completeness! :)  [Jetfire, since I know his height/weight.]

http://webpages.charter.net/akahige/GURPS/Transformers/...

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
December 6, 2004 8:30:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Korin Duval wrote:

> Yes, but the two above surely need Shrinking 'cause they could fit in
> another Transformer's hands OR a human being's, without transforming.
> Megatron's gun form was used both by his fellows and at least once by
> a human.

Now that you mention it, you're probably right, at least for those robots
that have vastly differing sizes in the same form. It's been a long time
since I've watched the cartoons.

> The main question is: should we take measurements basing on appearance
> of robot body (which is subject to morphing, shrinking, etc.?), or
> should we go into realistic transformation (using proportions of the
> toys and comparing them by the size of the vehicle form?

I would do different measurements for the robots and the vehicles, and eye
ball it to how big they are supposed to be on the cartoon series - the toys
were not always consistant on vehicle sizes (Tanks and trucks the size of
Cars, Tractor Trailers larger than Space Shuttles).

As one example I remember, the one tripple changer (space
shuttle/train/robot) could carry other robots around in Space Shuttle form,
but was no bigger than the others in robot form.

--
_ _ _ http://home.stny.rr.com/gurpsland
|_ ,_ . _ |_> (_` _ . _|_ |_
|_ | | (_ |_> __) ||| | | | | @earthling.net

Thoughts good! Slogans bad! Thoughts good! Slogans bad!
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 3:58:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 13:43:51 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:14:30 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
> >Duval) wrote:
> >
> >>>Omega Supreme (SM +6)
> >>>ST 384; DX 8; IQ 10; HT 15
> >>>attacks ~ 0.2 per second
> >>>damage ~ 112d
> >>>Move 40
> >>
> >>I think the ST is A BIT over the playable values... ^^;
> >
> >I don't see how.
>
> 112 dice?

easily managed by converting to decade or century scale (11d+2 or 1d+1
respectively) which I'd expect you'd want to do for the kinds of damage
and hit points transformers would have anyway.
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 4:43:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:14:30 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>>Omega Supreme (SM +6)
>>ST 384; DX 8; IQ 10; HT 15
>>attacks ~ 0.2 per second
>>damage ~ 112d
>>Move 40
>
>I think the ST is A BIT over the playable values... ^^;

I don't see how. The Tech Specs alone say that Brawn, a robot the
size of a LandRover, can lift 190 thousand pounds. Even when we
ignore obviously impossible figures like that, the fact remains that
giants like Omega Supreme still need huge ST to move around.

You say it's not very playable, but also notice that my power-to-mass
calculations slow Omega Supreme down to one attack per 5 seconds!


>I saw your site... I'd only say Wolverine needs AT LEAST Regeneration
>[100]... Poor boy!

I haven't read many Wolverine-related comics yet, but the impression I
got from both the cartoon and the movies is that he heals much slower
than a point per second. I don't see any problem with him being
perfectly healed 15 minutes after a fight, though.


-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 10:21:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 13:43:51 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:14:30 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
>Duval) wrote:
>
>>>Omega Supreme (SM +6)
>>>ST 384; DX 8; IQ 10; HT 15
>>>attacks ~ 0.2 per second
>>>damage ~ 112d
>>>Move 40
>>
>>I think the ST is A BIT over the playable values... ^^;
>
>I don't see how.

112 dice?
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 10:21:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:21:36 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>112 dice?

Hmm... A hundred-foot robot capable of lifting train cars like he
were Godzilla, and you say 112 dice is too much? For everyone's
benefit (and to double-check my calculations) I'll try to post the
formula by which I achieved that figure...

LET weight = mass * gravity
LET force = (ST ^ 2 * 4.5) - (weight / 1.5 ^ extra.encumbrance)
LET acceleration = force / mass / 2
LET reach = height / 69

IF NOT acceleration > 0 THEN GOTO summary

LET final.velocity = (acceleration * reach) ^ .5
LET full.mod = LOG(acceleration) / LOG(1.5)

LET extend = (2 * reach / acceleration) ^ .5
LET retract = (reach / acceleration) ^ .5 * 2
LET attacks = (2 ^ .5 + 2) / (extend + retract)

LET energy = (mass / 150) * final.velocity ^ 2
LET damage = energy ^ .5
LET dodge = (DX + full.mod) / 2
LET move = 5 * acceleration ^ .5 * reach

There. The part that calculates the velocity at impact was distilled
from some website's formula for determining the speed of Dorothy's
house when it landed on the Wicked Witch. All I remember is that it
involves "delta"-something.

If the physics of it is wrong, please, somebody tell me. I don't have
a clue. I just wracked my brain (and pestered T.Bone for science
lessons) until it all fell into place. :D 

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 3:35:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:38:28 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:21:36 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>112 dice?
>
>Hmm... A hundred-foot robot capable of lifting train cars like he
>were Godzilla, and you say 112 dice is too much?

Damn straight I do when the issue is playability.
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 3:35:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 00:35:24 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>Hmm... A hundred-foot robot capable of lifting train cars like he
>>were Godzilla, and you say 112 dice is too much?
>
>Damn straight I do when the issue is playability.

Then why in the heck would you even run a TF game in the first place?
Omega Supreme is one of the strongest robots in the early series, but
also one of the slowest. Basically, all he's good for is smashing
things or flying people around. Sounds pretty limited to me!

If you want everyone in a TF game to be limited to 100-points (or any
multiple thereof), you're going to have to ban all the main characters
because they're all different in size, power, and "playability".

Perhaps you thought that Transformers was a mindless robot combat
genre. If that's it, then please consider the true scope of the show
and comics. There's lots of ways for characters of different power
levels to be playable. Some will be best at smashing (like Omega
Supreme), while puny ones (like Bumblebee) would be better at
espionage or technical skills.

You're talking about banning the "brick" in a Supers game.

-- M.J.
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 5:07:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <6omcr0dttfobtsbjd5hvfkmelipfabncos@4ax.com>,
Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 00:35:24 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>>Hmm... A hundred-foot robot capable of lifting train cars like he
>>>were Godzilla, and you say 112 dice is too much?
>>
>>Damn straight I do when the issue is playability.

No character is playable when that many dice are involved.

>
>Then why in the heck would you even run a TF game in the first place?
>Omega Supreme is one of the strongest robots in the early series, but
>also one of the slowest. Basically, all he's good for is smashing
>things or flying people around. Sounds pretty limited to me!

Sounds like a plot device to me. Omega Supreme is a launch facility, not
a player character.

--
"Not that there's anything wrong with just lying around on your back. In
its way, rotting is interesing too... It's just that there are other ways
to spend your time as a cadaver." -- Mary Roach, "Stiff", 2003.
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 9:33:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:52:00 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 00:35:24 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>>Hmm... A hundred-foot robot capable of lifting train cars like he
>>>were Godzilla, and you say 112 dice is too much?
>>
>>Damn straight I do when the issue is playability.
>
>Then why in the heck would you even run a TF game in the first place?

No idea, but I know if I do, I don't want to roll 112 dice.

>Omega Supreme is one of the strongest robots in the early series, but
>also one of the slowest. Basically, all he's good for is smashing
>things or flying people around. Sounds pretty limited to me!
>
>If you want everyone in a TF game to be limited to 100-points (or any
>multiple thereof), you're going to have to ban all the main characters
>because they're all different in size, power, and "playability".

No, I want not to roll and add up 112 dice.
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 9:33:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:

> No, I want not to roll and add up 112 dice.

So roll 8d*14 or 6d*18, according to the standard GURPS rules for converting dice.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
!