Give GMs another tool...content!

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I'd like to get some feedback on something that's been just naggggging
the hell out of me for some time now...

First off, I like GURPS. Been on my gaming shelf since '86. I've run
Cyberpunk 2020, AD&D, Mechwarrior, D&D and some d20...I always come
running back to GURPS. Why? Because that little voice that nags me
when I get frustrated with things like levels, classes and other bizarre
game mechanics. It says the same thing, "You know, instead of
re-engeering the system so this will work, why not just do it in GURPS?"
Does this little voice bother you guys too? Am I the only one hearing it?

Now here's my complaint: I want content. I'm just as creative as the
next guy, but by golly there's more meat in 3 d20 books than 27.5 GURPS
books. Now the people at SJG are very nice and give loads of
suggestions, they don't get in the way, they let you do your thing.

Great. Now give me content. I want meat.

I open a d20 book, flip through and am wowwed. Bad system, but the
content, man! Makes a person want to game, right then and there. I
almost wet my pants with excitement over The Book of Vile Darkness.
Don't run D&D any longer but I bought it anyway. Content. I can use
that stuff.

So, am I like the only person seeing the content gap widening here?
Sure, we've got the Hellboy thing, Transhuman Space, WWII...but that
ain't enough. We need more. SJG doesn't have to change its philosophy
one bit...books can still have suggestions, histories, but add content
too. Give creative GMs another tool to create with...content.

I say. You?

 

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Well, for one thing, pregenerated NPC's, organizations and locations
would probably be nice.
Also, pre-limited "power packages" of some sort. For example, "in order
to wield the power of Noskcaj Evest, you must have the following
advantages/disavantages/skills, buy the 10-point UB. Then, buy it as an
innate attack, up to 10d, with the "costs fnord" limitation".

When it comes to d20 products, the Book of Vile Darkness was utterly
dull, clicheed mustachio-twirling tripe. For "classic" fantasy with
guts, you can't beat Scarred Lands.

 

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On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:40:40 -0500, Jeff Womack <jeffwomack@cox.net>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>So, am I like the only person seeing the content gap widening here?
>Sure, we've got the Hellboy thing, Transhuman Space, WWII...but that
>ain't enough. We need more. SJG doesn't have to change its philosophy
>one bit...books can still have suggestions, histories, but add content
>too. Give creative GMs another tool to create with...content.

Um, have you looked at Traveller? Nothing but content.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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"Jeff Womack" <jeffwomack@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8j3Dd.18481$622.18343@lakeread02...
> I'd like to get some feedback on something that's been just naggggging the
> hell out of me for some time now...
>
> First off, I like GURPS. Been on my gaming shelf since '86. I've run
> Cyberpunk 2020, AD&D, Mechwarrior, D&D and some d20...I always come
> running back to GURPS. Why? Because that little voice that nags me when
> I get frustrated with things like levels, classes and other bizarre game
> mechanics. It says the same thing, "You know, instead of re-engeering the
> system so this will work, why not just do it in GURPS?" Does this little
> voice bother you guys too? Am I the only one hearing it?
>
> Now here's my complaint: I want content. I'm just as creative as the next
> guy, but by golly there's more meat in 3 d20 books than 27.5 GURPS books.
> Now the people at SJG are very nice and give loads of suggestions, they
> don't get in the way, they let you do your thing.
>
> Great. Now give me content. I want meat.
>
> I open a d20 book, flip through and am wowwed. Bad system, but the
> content, man! Makes a person want to game, right then and there. I
> almost wet my pants with excitement over The Book of Vile Darkness. Don't
> run D&D any longer but I bought it anyway. Content. I can use that
> stuff.
>
> So, am I like the only person seeing the content gap widening here? Sure,
> we've got the Hellboy thing, Transhuman Space, WWII...but that ain't
> enough. We need more. SJG doesn't have to change its philosophy one
> bit...books can still have suggestions, histories, but add content too.
> Give creative GMs another tool to create with...content.
>

Like the other people who responded, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by
"content." I do agree that there are a lot of GURPS books that are mostly
background materials (for example, GURPS Aztecs isn't really necessary to
run an Aztec campaign if you already know anything about Aztecs). These are
not my favorite kind of book, but on the other hand I can solve the problem
nicely by not buying them.

I do have to say that in my gaming group, we do essentially have classes.
Most of the campaigns offer an assortment of options such as mage, cinematic
martial artist, or any of a number of styles of priest. They are not
"classes" as such, but since the attendant advantages cost a lot of points,
people generally pick one or at most two of them, and wind up being what
could easily be described as "a warrior" or "a sorcerer."

 

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As you haven't bothered explaining what you mean by "content", I have
to assume that it means "stuff inside something else", as usual. And
as GURPS books have lots of stuff inside them, I haven't really got
the faintest idea what the blistering blue barnacles you're talking
about.

(Seeking to give the customers what they want is fine. But there's no
point in asking the customers what they want if they just talk
gibberish at you, so what the hell.)

--
Phil Masters http://www.philm.demon.co.uk
Consternation: RPG Convention, Cambridge, 2005:
http://www.consternation.org.uk/

 

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> As you haven't bothered explaining what you mean by "content"

I think Jeff specifically gives "The Book of Vile Darknesss" as an example
of a content-filled ... maybe we should ask him to elaborate a little on
that one - what is the "content" part? BOVD has spells - GURPS Magic has
spells ... I'm not saying there no difference, but I'd like a bit more of
what "content" is.

 

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>>>>> "JW" == Jeff Womack <jeffwomack@cox.net> writes:

JW> I open a d20 book, flip through and am wowwed. Bad system,
JW> but the content, man! Makes a person want to game, right then
JW> and there. I almost wet my pants with excitement over The
JW> Book of Vile Darkness. Don't run D&D any longer but I bought
JW> it anyway. Content. I can use that stuff.

JW> So, am I like the only person seeing the content gap widening
JW> here? Sure, we've got the Hellboy thing, Transhuman Space,
JW> WWII...but that ain't enough. We need more. SJG doesn't have
JW> to change its philosophy one bit...books can still have
JW> suggestions, histories, but add content too. Give creative
JW> GMs another tool to create with...content.

Well, there are almost 600 pages in my Basic Set - there's a lot of
content in there. There are about 120 GURPS books on my shelf -
there's a lot of content in there too. When you say "content," it
sounds like you mean "setting ideas." When you say "Transhuman Space"
and "WWII," it sounds like you mean "well-supported settings."
Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by "content."

The problem is, settings don't sell. WWII was canceled as a line of
books because it wasn't supporting itself. High quality content, good
production values, excellently researched *and* entirely playable --
but it's not the sort of thing that enough GURPS players wanted for it
to keep going as a line. Transhuman Space ran the planned course, but
I don't get the impression that it's broadly used; if it had been
open-ended in the way it seemed that WWII was, it probably would have
been cancelled too. People who buy GURPS books seem to want useful
toolkits, not fleshed-out settings; the exception seems to be
Traveller, but that was a setting looking for a usable system.

d20 has a different market, because the vast majority of people are
playing in roughly the same setting with roughly the same expectations
about power level. It also has a lot more people playing it, so a
smaller percentage need to buy any given book for it to be profitable.
(Example: suppose there are 100,000 people actively playing GURPS, and
a 256-page hardcover book needs to sell 5000 copies to pay its
production costs. That means that 5% of GURPS players need to buy a
book for it to break even. Well, if there are 2 million actively
playing d20, only 0.25% of them need to buy that book for it to pay
its production costs.)

My suspicion is that a lot of "content" will be available on e23 once
it debuts. There's a lot of "content" available on Pyramid -- and for
$20 a year, you also get to mine the archives. But both of those have
very different breaking points for profitability. With the size of
its market, SJG needs to produce and sell books that will sell to a
large chunk of its audience, especially now that they're hardcover and
more substantial. And its audience has already shown that it prefers
toolkit books to adventures or series of setting books.

And for that matter, hey, buy the Book of Vile Darkness if you think
its content is interesting. It should be pretty trivial to stat
everything up in GURPS, if you want to use it in a GURPS fantasy game.

Charlton




--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com

 

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Charlton Wilbur wrote:
> Well, there are almost 600 pages in my Basic Set - there's a lot of
> content in there. There are about 120 GURPS books on my shelf -
> there's a lot of content in there too. When you say "content," it
> sounds like you mean "setting ideas." When you say "Transhuman Space"
> and "WWII," it sounds like you mean "well-supported settings."
> Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by "content."

My suspicion is that he wants more crunchy bits.

> The problem is, settings don't sell. WWII was canceled as a line of
[...]

Crunch does, however. Crunch books are the most popular D&D3
supplements, by far.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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Peter Knutsen wrote:

> Crunch does, however. Crunch books are the most popular D&D3
> supplements, by far.

Ironically, the biggest complaint I've been hearing from fans of the
Forgotten Realms setting is the predominance of "crunch" over "fluff."

 

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>>>>> "PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

PK> My suspicion is that he wants more crunchy bits.

There are easily 800 to 1000 pages of crunchy bits in the GURPS 4
books that have been released so far -- far more crunch than fluff.

Charlton


--
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cwilbur at mac dot com

 

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rasmuswagner@punkass.com <rasmuswagner@punkass.com> wrote:
> Well, for one thing, pregenerated NPC's, organizations and locations
> would probably be nice.
> Also, pre-limited "power packages" of some sort. For example, "in order
> to wield the power of Noskcaj Evest, you must have the following
> advantages/disavantages/skills, buy the 10-point UB. Then, buy it as an
> innate attack, up to 10d, with the "costs fnord" limitation".

You mean like GURPS Warriors, GURPS Wizards, GURPS THS Transhuman Files,
and GURPS Tredoy? I think the reason that SJGames hasn't produced stuff
like that recently is that it doesn't sell well, and the reason it doesn't
sell well is because it isn't nearly as useful as things like GURPS Fantasy
or GURPS Magic.

-Mark Langsdorf

 

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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:30:30 GMT, "Brian G. Vaughan"
<foolishowl_hates_spam@peoplepc.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
> > Crunch does, however. Crunch books are the most popular D&D3
> > supplements, by far.
>
> Ironically, the biggest complaint I've been hearing from fans of the
> Forgotten Realms setting is the predominance of "crunch" over "fluff."

The problem is that 'fluff' is what the fans want, but if you add lots
of 'crunch' the books become attractive to non-fans who will then buy
the books to mine for crunchy stuff for their own games. IOW WotC adds
crunch to attract a wider market.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>>>>>>"PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:
> PK> My suspicion is that he wants more crunchy bits.
>
> There are easily 800 to 1000 pages of crunchy bits in the GURPS 4
> books that have been released so far -- far more crunch than fluff.

As I expected. I assumed the original poster was complaining
about GURPS supplements in general.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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Brian G. Vaughan wrote:
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>>Crunch does, however. Crunch books are the most popular D&D3
>>supplements, by far.
>
> Ironically, the biggest complaint I've been hearing from fans of the
> Forgotten Realms setting is the predominance of "crunch" over "fluff."

Crunch is easy to create, compared to fluff, especially if
the system is so badly in need of crunch as D&D3 is
(compared to, e.g., GURPS). It gets easier still if you
don't have to care overmuch about game balance

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> The problem is that 'fluff' is what the fans want, but if you add lots
> of 'crunch' the books become attractive to non-fans who will then buy
> the books to mine for crunchy stuff for their own games. IOW WotC adds
> crunch to attract a wider market.

The funny part is, crunch is much better labeled "a tool for
the players" (if not "a weapon for the players"!) than as "a
tool for the GM".

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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>
> Crunch is easy to create, compared to fluff, especially if the system is
> so badly in need of crunch as D&D3 is (compared to, e.g., GURPS). It
> gets easier still if you don't have to care overmuch about game balance
>

I'm sorry to be that stupid, but could please anyone explain to me as a
non-native-speaker the meaning of crunch an fluff in this circumstances?

Kristian
--

According to the philosopher Ly Tin Weedle, chaos is found in greatest
abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order,
because it is better organized.

(Terry Pratchett: Interesting Times)

 

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>>>>> "KD" == Kristian Domke <news@neither-nor.net> writes:

>> Crunch is easy to create, compared to fluff, especially if the
>> system is so badly in need of crunch as D&D3 is (compared to,
>> e.g., GURPS). It gets easier still if you don't have to care
>> overmuch about game balance

KD> I'm sorry to be that stupid, but could please anyone explain
KD> to me as a non-native-speaker the meaning of crunch an fluff
KD> in this circumstances?

Crunch is rules, especially new rules that make characters more
powerful than before. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things like new
prestige classes, new feats, new spells. In GURPS terms, it would
probably be things like new advantages, new disadvantages, new combat
techniques and maneuvers. The Basic Set, Compendium I and II and
Vehicles were pretty much all crunch.

Fluff is setting, especially setting that doesn't offer characters any
more power. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things like the character
writeup of Elminster or the history of the Dalelands. In GURPS terms,
it's the content of books like GURPS Illuminati or GURPS The Prisoner
-- very little in the way of new rules, quite a bit in the way of
setting and backplot.

You can create a book that is both, and White Wolf was quite good at
it when I was following them: release a book on the vampires of a
major city, and scatter maybe two dozen pages of crunch throughout the
book. People interested in crunch bought the book because it was the
only way to get the official rules on (for instance) blindfighting or
combat from a moving car; people interested in fluff bought the book
because it detailed the vampire population of such-and-such city.
People who did not like buying lots of books complained that this
meant that the rules were scattered throughout a couple dozen
supplements, and they were right; the point of scattering the rules
that way was to encourage people to buy supplements.

Charlton


--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com

 

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>>>>> "PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

>>>>>>> "PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

PK> My suspicion is that he wants more crunchy bits.

PK> Charlton Wilbur wrote:

>> There are easily 800 to 1000 pages of crunchy bits in the GURPS
>> 4 books that have been released so far -- far more crunch than
>> fluff.

PK> As I expected. I assumed the original poster was complaining
PK> about GURPS supplements in general.

Which itself doesn't really fit, either, because GURPS supplements
tend to have as much crunch as they need.

Unless the original poster actually returns to define what he means by
"content," we're probably just going to have to wonder.

Charlton


--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com

 

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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:19:29 GMT, Charlton Wilbur
<cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote:

>>>>>> "KD" == Kristian Domke <news@neither-nor.net> writes:
>
> >> Crunch is easy to create, compared to fluff, especially if the
> >> system is so badly in need of crunch as D&D3 is (compared to,
> >> e.g., GURPS). It gets easier still if you don't have to care
> >> overmuch about game balance
>
> KD> I'm sorry to be that stupid, but could please anyone explain
> KD> to me as a non-native-speaker the meaning of crunch an fluff
> KD> in this circumstances?
>
>Crunch is rules, especially new rules that make characters more
>powerful than before. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things like new
>prestige classes, new feats, new spells.

And of course new magic items.

 

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Thanks, with that info the discussion makes sense for me at last ;-)

--

According to the philosopher Ly Tin Weedle, chaos is found in greatest
abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order,
because it is better organized.

(Terry Pratchett: Interesting Times)

 

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Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>>>>>>"KD" == Kristian Domke <news@neither-nor.net> writes:
> KD> I'm sorry to be that stupid, but could please anyone explain
> KD> to me as a non-native-speaker the meaning of crunch an fluff

You're not stupid. And, amusingly, both I and Charlton are
non-native speakers too.

> KD> in this circumstances?
>
> Crunch is rules, especially new rules that make characters more
> powerful than before. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things like new

I think it's slightly more specific than that. It's
chose-able abilities, which work according to rules. In
GURPS terms, new Advantages and new Spells. In D&D3 terms,
it's Feats, Spells and Prestige Classes (and Domains for
Clerics, and new Core Classes, and also new abilities for
magic items).

> prestige classes, new feats, new spells. In GURPS terms, it would
> probably be things like new advantages, new disadvantages, new combat
> techniques and maneuvers. The Basic Set, Compendium I and II and
> Vehicles were pretty much all crunch.

New skills sometimes have the effect, however, of forcing
players to spread their skill points thinner. So that's
undesirable from the point of view of players.

But not always. Sometimes, a skill is introduced that lets
characters do something which before just couldn't be done
(the GM would simply assume it to be impossible, e.g.
speaking a foreign language without any accent at all).
That's something that players will generally like.

> Fluff is setting, especially setting that doesn't offer characters any
> more power. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things like the character

Note that power is often best understood as being power
relative to the GM, rather than relative to the NPCs. The
hallmark of good crunchy bits is that they're not very open
to interpretation. Combat Reflexes in GURPS is a good example.

> writeup of Elminster or the history of the Dalelands. In GURPS terms,

Crunch would specifically be a reductionist approach to
Elmonster, as in making each and every one of his special
abilities available as Feats, Prestige Class traits, and so
forth, so as to enable players to re-create him (given
sufficient character levels). Which, according to my limited
understanding, is actually theoretically possible in D&D 3rd
Edition.

> it's the content of books like GURPS Illuminati or GURPS The Prisoner
> -- very little in the way of new rules, quite a bit in the way of
> setting and backplot.
>
> You can create a book that is both, and White Wolf was quite good at
> it when I was following them: release a book on the vampires of a
> major city, and scatter maybe two dozen pages of crunch throughout the
> book. People interested in crunch bought the book because it was the
> only way to get the official rules on (for instance) blindfighting or
> combat from a moving car; people interested in fluff bought the book
> because it detailed the vampire population of such-and-such city.
> People who did not like buying lots of books complained that this
> meant that the rules were scattered throughout a couple dozen

I've never bough Vampire, but that could easily have been me

> supplements, and they were right; the point of scattering the rules
> that way was to encourage people to buy supplements.

Which probably made a lot more sense for Vampire than it
does for the Forgotten Realms.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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>>>>> "PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

(quoting me)

>> Fluff is setting, especially setting that doesn't offer
>> characters any more power. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things
>> like the character

This is a thinko - I should have typed "In D&D3 terms, fluff is things..."

>> writeup of Elminster or the history of the Dalelands. In GURPS
>> terms,

PK> Crunch would specifically be a reductionist approach to
PK> Elmonster, as in making each and every one of his special
PK> abilities available as Feats, Prestige Class traits, and so
PK> forth, so as to enable players to re-create him (given
PK> sufficient character levels). Which, according to my limited
PK> understanding, is actually theoretically possible in D&D 3rd
PK> Edition.

I'd distinguish: the rules and traits you need to write up Elminster
are crunch. The actual writeup of Elminster is fluff.

Charlton


--
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cwilbur at mac dot com

 

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Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>>>>>>"PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:
> PK> As I expected. I assumed the original poster was complaining
> PK> about GURPS supplements in general.
>
> Which itself doesn't really fit, either, because GURPS supplements
> tend to have as much crunch as they need.

Aren't most GURPS supplements setting/culture books?
Certainly the majority of my GURPS collection is, but then
again I'm one of those who buy the books to use with other
systems (I still own a bunch of crunchies, though).

Is there a general perception, among people not very mailiar
with GURPS, that SJ Games publishes mostly GURPS Place
books, as in GURPS Japan, GURPS India, GURPS Vikings?

> Unless the original poster actually returns to define what he means by
> "content," we're probably just going to have to wonder.

Yes.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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>>>>> "PK" == Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

(in response to me)
>> Which itself doesn't really fit, either, because GURPS
>> supplements tend to have as much crunch as they need.

PK> Aren't most GURPS supplements setting/culture books? Certainly
PK> the majority of my GURPS collection is, but then again I'm one
PK> of those who buy the books to use with other systems (I still
PK> own a bunch of crunchies, though).

Well, that's not incompatible with having as much crunch as they need.

For instance, in the terms of this discussion, the GURPS WWII book is
mostly fluff[1]: it's really just a lot of history, with templates
reflecting common traits found among the soldiers of various countries
and stats for common vehicles. I don't think there's much in that
book that couldn't be derived using existing rules and a hell of a lot
of research. In that sense, the book has relatively little crunch.
But it's still a damned good supplement, and one of the best WWII-in-
a-nutshell summaries I've seen.

One of the goals of SJG is to keep rules together: the idea is that
all the rules and traits you need for a genre ought to be in the Basic
Set (or, in 3e, the Compendia) or in a relevant *rule*book (example:
GURPS 4e Powers for super-powers and psionic powers and such, GURPS
Martial Arts for cinematic combat, GURPS Bestiary for animals), while
setting books, if they have new rules and traits, ought to have only
those rules and traits that are strictly necessary for that setting.
This is almost exactly the opposite of what other companies do.

PK> Is there a general perception, among people not very mailiar
PK> with GURPS, that SJ Games publishes mostly GURPS Place books,
PK> as in GURPS Japan, GURPS India, GURPS Vikings?

I'm not sure; most of the gamers I know are pretty familiar with
GURPS. Among those that aren't, the perception seems to be that it's
a complex, fiddly system that doesn't suit their needs as well as d20.

Charlton


[1] "Fluff" is often used disparagingly. I don't intend it in that
sense here at all.

--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com

 

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David Johnston wrote:
> <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote:
>>Crunch is rules, especially new rules that make characters more
>>powerful than before. In D&D3 terms, crunch is things like new
>>prestige classes, new feats, new spells.
>
> And of course new magic items.

Pedantically, new abilities for the modular magic item
construction system. E.g. new weapon traits (Mage-Bane, or
so I've heard, is in the new Complete Arcane book).

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org