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Galadriel's Appearance?

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Anonymous
January 26, 2005 3:05:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
+25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
(another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.

On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
for any earthly being.

Should I just chalk it up to Elves being +1 Appearance level compared
to humans, and thereby boost Galadriel beyond human norms because
she's one of the prettiest of the Elven race?

(Or, has anyone else make LotR characters for GURPS 4e?)


-- Matt Jozwiak

More about : galadriel appearance

Anonymous
January 26, 2005 9:39:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
>+25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf

Universal is automatically Impressive. And yes, of course she would.

>(another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
>
>On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
>thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
>for any earthly being.

Elfs aren't entirely earthly. That's why they get their bony asses
kicked off Earth.
Anonymous
January 26, 2005 5:49:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:39:44 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>Universal is automatically Impressive. And yes, of course she would.

So it's not possible to have a Transcendent goddess who can get +8 to
seduce males of other species? She only gets +8 with male deities,
and gets the generic modifier for other males?

Impressive represents "...exceptional physical presence that doesn't
manifest as sexual magnetism.... typical of tigers and aged royalty."
This seems to be citing examples that are Impressive to any race in
the first place, so why pay an extra 25% for Univesal if it doesn't
allow the sexual magnetism modifier to extend to other races?

I mean, wouldn't Aphrodite appeal more to men than to nymphs?


>Elfs aren't entirely earthly. That's why they get their bony asses
>kicked off Earth.

Well, Tolkien's Elves were born from the Earth (way off in the East, I
believe), as opposed to being beamed-down like the Wizards. I think
the reason they left in the end was because the Earth was changing.
Perhaps things like physics made it impossible for them to stay -- not
unlike other genres such as the World of Darkness.


-- Matt Jozwiak
Related resources
Anonymous
January 26, 2005 8:32:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:mi8ev05ualbtspujhurpkpn070js1oq4nj@4ax.com:

> On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
> thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
> for any earthly being.

As far as Tolkien was concerned, only the Avari would have been earthly
beings as far as Elves were concerned. Galadriel was no earthly being.
She had seen the Light of the Silmarils, firsthand.
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 12:59:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
> +25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
> (another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
>
> On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
> thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
> for any earthly being.

Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
and loads of Charisma.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 12:59:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <qpmev091bmf83emiesmeloe5t5fp3ilalh@4ax.com>,
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
>carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
>> +25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
>> (another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
>>
>> On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
>> thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
>> for any earthly being.
>
>Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
>beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
>in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
>you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
>and loads of Charisma.

Yet it's possible for Eomer to see Arwen (Galadriel's granddaughter) as more
beautiful; Arwen never lived in Valinor like Galadriel did so isn't quite so
"nearly unearthly".
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 12:59:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:59:18 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
>beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
>in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
>you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
>and loads of Charisma.

But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
seem to have the right stuff.

I guess we really need to pin down what Transcendent means. Does it
mean you're radiating holy light, or just that you're *the* handsomest
person that ever lived? If the latter, then both Elves would probably
have Transcendent, with Galadriel having a separate "awe" power.


-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 12:59:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:53mfv01b7fudqfcuq3lfbu3qoj61gr72f6@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:59:18 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>>Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
>>beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
>>in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
>>you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
>>and loads of Charisma.
>
> But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
> based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
> seem to have the right stuff.

Arwen has never seen the Light. She is a child of mortal lands and never
touched the places of the Blessed.
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 2:27:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:
> Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
> +25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
> (another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
[...]

The way I've understood the novel, she was an extremely
attractive female, not just to Humans and Elves, but also in
the eyes of Dwarves. She was definitely outside the scope of
the Appearance scale from GURPS 3E and earlier (in other
words: *beyond* Very Beautiful).

But also don't forget that part of what works for Gimli is
that Galadriel can empathize with his fascination with
mountains and other Dwarven things. That's what helps him to
see her as "one of his kin", on some level, as opposed to
wholly alien. For starters, give Galadriel CF: Dwarven, and
some kind of Appreciate Beauty skill pertaining to
mountains, mines and the like.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 7:57:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

>> But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
>> based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
>> seem to have the right stuff.

>Arwen has never seen the Light. She is a child of mortal lands and
never
>touched the places of the Blessed.

But Arwen *is* the great(-great-)grandchild of Melian, a Maia--in
essence,
an angel. Which makes up for a lot. Personally, I'd give Galadriel
more
Charisma and impressive presence, and Arwen more sheer looks. And
Luthien slightly more looks than Arwen, if you want to get into that.
:) 

--Neon Fox
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 9:57:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

I think Transcendent makes sense for at least some Tolkien elves, given
that they aren't really earthly beings - they're really more like a
lower order of angels, especially those that have been to the West and
experienced the light of the Trees.
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 2:51:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:49:19 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:59:18 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
> >beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
> >in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
> >you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
> >and loads of Charisma.
>
> But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
> based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
> seem to have the right stuff.

By making Galadriel Very Attractive, and Arwen Trancendent. Or you can
just say that Galadriel just wasn't Eomer's type, or his reaction roll
towards her was a bit poor.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 6:14:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

I don't really see how any Elf can be considered otherworldly by
nature, since (from what little I've read) they're all descended from
the first Elves that awoke in Cuiviénen (some place in the far East).

Though it's not unreasonable to assume that Elves are capable of
evolving spiritually, I think it's a mistake to place them in the same
category as "angels". That should be reserved for the Ainur.

Unless the texts I've read are wrong -- and I have no way to know,
since I never finished reading the Silmarillion -- the Elves are flesh
and blood creatures just like everything else. They awoke in the
East, and were not "beamed down" like the Valar and Maiar.

So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.

As it stands now, I think since the 4E Characters book's generic Elf
template includes Attractive Appearance, I'll just assume that all
Elves get +1 level of Appearance over their human counterparts.

Perhaps instead of a high Appearance for Gandalf the White, it would
be better to add Terror, somewhat as the 4E book suggests. Any
suggestions?

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
January 27, 2005 10:57:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:

> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.

Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 1:25:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
<cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:

>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>
>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>
>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.

Yes, and that differentiates him from the Elves. They may not die
from old age, but they are still part of Creation. Gandalf, being
effectively an angel from outside Creation, would probably qualify for
all kinds of things that only the most powerful of Elves ever achieve.

However, when it comes to Gandalf the White's level of Appearance, I
think it's best to make him Attractive -- just enough to qualify him
for the Universal enhancement. What do you think?

I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.

-- M.J.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 2:57:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:14:12 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Unless the texts I've read are wrong -- and I have no way to know,
>since I never finished reading the Silmarillion -- the Elves are flesh
>and blood creatures just like everything else. They awoke in the
>East, and were not "beamed down" like the Valar and Maiar.
>
>So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.

You are way, way overthinking this. Galadriel pegs the meter when it
comes to beauty, and her beauty applies even to species that would
normally not be attracted to females who have no beards. She has
Universal appeal and probably Very Beautiful if not Awesome. Arwen is
just Very Beautiful but has no Universal advantage (meaning she's
actually MORE attractive sexually, but not quite as generally
impressive).

>
>As it stands now, I think since the 4E Characters book's generic Elf
>template includes Attractive Appearance, I'll just assume that all
>Elves get +1 level of Appearance over their human counterparts.
>
>Perhaps instead of a high Appearance for Gandalf the White, it would
>be better to add Terror, somewhat as the 4E book suggests. Any
>suggestions?

Yes. Gandalf is kind of impressive, but not really all that good
looking and far short of awe inspiring unless he puts an effort into
Intimidating you. He most certainly does not have Terror, since if he
did, everyone who looked at him would scream and run away. I'd give
him Attractive.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 2:57:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:57:51 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>You are way, way overthinking this.

If I am, it's because GURPS still hasn't made it perfectly clear what
constitutes different levels of Appearance. Before, everyone was
limited to "Very Beautiful/Handsome". Now this new "Transcendent"
comes along, and I'm not sure whether it's meant for regular folks or
is reserved for super-humans.

Then you throw in the modifiers from things like Universal, and it
gets really confusing. For example, why should a Transcendent woman
be able to seduce men better than a Transcendent/Universal goddess?!?
No, go back and read the same rules you've been preaching to me -- the
woman will get +8 reaction with men, while the goddess of love gets
only +5, even with her fellow gods!

Obviously I can't read the writers' minds, but I think that Universal
was only meant to provide a way for Appearance bonuses to influence
others races/species. Otherwise, why would the goddess of love pay
+25% for Universal if it's going to *reduce* her effect on males?

-- M.J.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 6:34:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
<cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:

>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>
>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>
>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>

Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
looks.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 8:09:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

>I don't really see how any Elf can be considered otherworldly by
>nature,

Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
end of Book I, Fellowship).

> I think it's a mistake to place [Elves] in the same
>category as "angels". That should be reserved for the Ainur.

1) Melian, a Maia, is an Ainu.
2) Melian is the mother of Luthien, who is Arwen's great- or
great-great grandmother.
3) Therefore, Arwen is not too many generations removed
from an 'angel', and that's one of the reasons she's so
gorgeous.

If you must have stats, I'd do it as follows:
Make Galadriel Very Beautiful, with Universal and loads
of Charisma.
Make Arwen Transcendant, without Universal and with
less Charisma.
Make Luthien Transcendant, with Universal and about
the same amount of Charisma as Arwen.

Remember Luthien is "fairest", while Arwen is "the
likeness of Luthien come again".

--Neon Fox
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 8:50:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:45:25 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:57:51 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>You are way, way overthinking this.
>
>If I am, it's because GURPS still hasn't made it perfectly clear what
>constitutes different levels of Appearance. Before, everyone was
>limited to "Very Beautiful/Handsome". Now this new "Transcendent"
>comes along, and I'm not sure whether it's meant for regular folks or
>is reserved for super-humans.

It _is_ reserved for super-humans, but Galadriel _is_ a super-human.

>
>Then you throw in the modifiers from things like Universal, and it
>gets really confusing. For example, why should a Transcendent woman
>be able to seduce men better than a Transcendent/Universal goddess?!?
>No, go back and read the same rules you've been preaching to me -- the
>woman will get +8 reaction with men, while the goddess of love gets
>only +5, even with her fellow gods!

Just because you are a goddess doesn't mean you _have_ to have
Universal.


>
>Obviously I can't read the writers' minds, but I think that Universal
>was only meant to provide a way for Appearance bonuses to influence
>others races/species. Otherwise, why would the goddess of love pay
>+25% for Universal if it's going to *reduce* her effect on males?

She isn't, of course, if she's the sexpot deity type. Instead she'll
get Transcendent Beauty, and if she wants to appeal to species that
have no use for a woman with no beard or only two eyes, she'll learn
Shapeshifting. Being a goddess doesn't mean you _have_ to take
Universal.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 2:51:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <41f957fe.1411211818@news.telusplanet.net>,
David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
><cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>
>>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>>
>>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>>
>>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>>
>
>Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
>looks.

He does wear a physical body which is that of an elderly (but quite spry
and healthy) mortal man. Not *like* a mortal body, but an actual one;
it's unaging but does get killed at one point (he gets better). As such,
he's got a pleasant grandfatherly look with the beard and the pipe and
everything, and manners to suit. Probably Attractive in GURPS terms,
plus a bit of Charisma and such. Voice maybe.

All that is without using Maia mojo, which he doesn't, most of the time.
He could be more impressive if he wanted to.

--
Leif Kjønnøy, cunctator maximus. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 3:45:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <ctd8vv$tgv$2@orkan.itea.ntnu.no>,
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>In article <41f957fe.1411211818@news.telusplanet.net>,
>David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
>><cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>>>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>>>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>>>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>>>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>>>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>>>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>>Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
>>looks.
>He does wear a physical body which is that of an elderly (but quite spry
>and healthy) mortal man. Not *like* a mortal body, but an actual one;
>it's unaging but does get killed at one point (he gets better). As such,
>he's got a pleasant grandfatherly look with the beard and the pipe and
>everything, and manners to suit. Probably Attractive in GURPS terms,
>plus a bit of Charisma and such. Voice maybe.
>
>All that is without using Maia mojo, which he doesn't, most of the time.
>He could be more impressive if he wanted to.

His ring Narya had the power to inspire men..
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 8:07:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <kobjv0ph93v08v9ekpli60ur3msq65amuj@4ax.com>,
Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
>think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
>he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.

How can it be universal when creatures of the Dark fear him?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 8:11:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <ctd8vv$tgv$2@orkan.itea.ntnu.no>,
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>In article <41f957fe.1411211818@news.telusplanet.net>,
>David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
>><cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>>>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>>>
>>
>>Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
>>looks.
>[...]
>All that is without using Maia mojo, which he doesn't, most of the time.
>He could be more impressive if he wanted to.

And in fact is occasionally. He overawes Bilbo early in LOTR, and as Gandalf
the White is sometimes described as shining in appearance (by which Tolkein
might have partly meant actual light, but which I'm fairly sure is meant
also allegorically to mean an impressive appearance).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 10:15:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 28 Jan 2005 05:09:29 -0800, "Neon Fox" <neonfox@volcanomail.com>
wrote:

>Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
>missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
>have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
>simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
>end of Book I, Fellowship).

Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"? What about Men?


>3) Therefore, Arwen is not too many generations removed
>from an 'angel', and that's one of the reasons she's so
>gorgeous.

That would seem to be an odd exception, whereas otherwise the Elves
are purely creatures of Creation. If *only* angel-related people can
reach Transcendent Appearance, then I tend to agree with your
assessment below...

>Make Galadriel Very Beautiful, with Universal and loads
>of Charisma.
>Make Arwen Transcendant, without Universal and with
>less Charisma.
>Make Luthien Transcendant, with Universal and about
>the same amount of Charisma as Arwen.

>Remember Luthien is "fairest", while Arwen is "the
>likeness of Luthien come again".



-- M.J.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 10:15:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
> born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
> their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
> don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
> they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"? What about Men?

I'm no Tolkien expert, but an elf whose earthly form is destroyed spends time
in a special location in The West until they are granted new bodies. This
happened to Glorfindel, who we met in the Fellowship of the Ring. Unlike the
Ainur, they seem to _need_ bodies.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 10:16:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 28 Jan 2005 17:07:47 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
wrote:

>In article <kobjv0ph93v08v9ekpli60ur3msq65amuj@4ax.com>,
>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>>I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
>>think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
>>he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.
>
>How can it be universal when creatures of the Dark fear him?

Do you think Terror might need a Your Species Only limitation?
Darnit, I'd hoped it was all figured out by now! :) 

-- M.J.
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 11:06:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:jjklv05q03jm5ig1pjl4d72n6gj0cltrdc@4ax.com:

> Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
> born in -- and as part of -- Creation.

But some of the Elves were bathed in the light of the Trees.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 12:11:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

This gets really complicated, as J.R.R.T. continued to extend the
writings about How Things Work. Elves and Men are
_both_ creatures of spirit and flesh, and both continue their conscious
existence even after the total destruction of their
flesh-and-blood forms. Their _spiritual_ nature is different, though,
as opposed to their relatively similar physical nature.

Elven souls do not, and _can not_, leave thsi world (which might
actually include the rest of the physical universe), _no matter
what_. Instead, the soul of a 'dead' Elf goes to the Halls of Mandos,
and after a 'time of waiting' can be rebodied if the Valar
give consent, though usually an Elf who is so rebodied remains in
Valinor afterward. Some Elves choose to wait longer than others to
return to physical form, and some are not allowed to return as penalty
for various offenses. An Elf _can_ opt never to
return, eschewing the world entirely, but this is Not Approved, and the
one known case of it led to all sorts of bad aftereffects. It's
just as immoral for an Elf to try to get out of immortality as it is
for a mortal to try to live forever.

Men also go to the Halls of Mandos, for a little while, when they die.
But they don't stay long, they depart from there to leave the
world entirely, and they don't return (at least not until Judgement
Day). Where they go, not even most of the Ainur have any idea, and the
two that do aren't talking. As a side-effect of this spiritual
difference, it's possible for an Elf to find himself/herself stuck with
a foreordained Fate that s/he just simply _cannot_ avoid. Men do not
suffer this problem, our fate in this world is not settled, though a
happy ending is not guaranteed.

It's widely believed by the Elves that whatever after-life awaits Elves
and Men is _separate_, so that after their final parting, Elves and Men
do not meet again. That was why Luthien and Arwen's choices were so
painful for their Elven kin, the separation involved would last
_forever_. For them to meet again would take nothing less than the
intervention of God..

Like Elves, Men apparently have some limited choice of how long to
linger in the Halls of Mandos. Beren, for ex, waited there for his
Elven lady-love Luthien to join him, putting off his scheduled
departure in hopes she could accompany him. Presumably, though, he
could not have delayed indefinitely.


Shermanlee
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 12:15:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

IIRC, not only is Gandalf's embodiment more 'permanent' or 'deeper'
than most such Ainur physicalities, he also takes on some of the limits
of perception of Men and Elves. Gandalf, as a 'mortal', to some degree
_thinks_ like a mortal.

His body is even physical enough to suffer from nicotine addiction, and
some
of the withdrawal effects of such (though presumably he is immune to
lung cancer and emphysema). He suffers from hunger and thirst the same
way the rest of us do, etc.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 3:13:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) writes:

> In article <kobjv0ph93v08v9ekpli60ur3msq65amuj@4ax.com>,
> Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>>I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
>>think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
>>he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.
>
> How can it be universal when creatures of the Dark fear him?

Reputation -5 ("Do not screw with Gandalf"), amongst the creatures of
the Dark?

Shalon Wood

--
Check out Strange Love -- an ezine of science fiction, fantasy, and
paranormal erotica. Only $2 for more than 20,000 words of fiction!

http://strangelove.pele.cx
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 4:23:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:15:31 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On 28 Jan 2005 05:09:29 -0800, "Neon Fox" <neonfox@volcanomail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
>>missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
>>have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
>>simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
>>end of Book I, Fellowship).
>
>Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
>born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
>their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
>don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
>they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"?

Elves go to the Halls of Mandos.

>What about Men?

They have a separate afterlife about which nothing is known.
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 4:23:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) abagooba zoink larblortch
news:41fa8a17.1489584548@news.telusplanet.net:

> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:15:31 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 28 Jan 2005 05:09:29 -0800, "Neon Fox" <neonfox@volcanomail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
>>>missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
>>>have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
>>>simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
>>>end of Book I, Fellowship).
>>
>>Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
>>born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
>>their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
>>don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
>>they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"?
>
> Elves go to the Halls of Mandos.
>
>>What about Men?
>
> They have a separate afterlife about which nothing is known.
>
>

It is hinted that they are "free of the world"--they go beyond Arda.
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 12:18:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 28 Jan 2005 21:11:53 -0800, "Johnny1a" <shermanlee1@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>flesh-and-blood forms. Their _spiritual_ nature is different, though,
>as opposed to their relatively similar physical nature.

So that's why they have to make a choice to go West or die mortal? Do
Arwen's kids get a choice, or are their souls automatically considered
human because Arwen already gave up her immortality?


>Like Elves, Men apparently have some limited choice of how long to
>linger in the Halls of Mandos. Beren, for ex, waited there for his
>Elven lady-love Luthien to join him, putting off his scheduled
>departure in hopes she could accompany him. Presumably, though, he
>could not have delayed indefinitely.

Did Tolkien ever explain everything, even in rough-draft form? He
spent a huge part of his life inventing an in-depth mythology for a
country that didn't really have one its own, but did he intend to
leave it as a cliff-hanger?

Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?

Lastly, are there any GURPS or other RPG suppliments that *properly*
interpret Tolkien's vision (even unofficial publications)? I've seen
a little of MERP, and I must praise the author(s) of Decipher's new
LotR RPG for at least *trying* to show both the movie and book
versions, but how can an amateur know for certain what's really a
proper Tolkien-based RPG?


-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 1:53:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:p vfov0dhcmr1e12rabfbsshdoqv4umnveu@4ax.com:

> So that's why they have to make a choice to go West or die mortal? Do
> Arwen's kids get a choice, or are their souls automatically considered
> human because Arwen already gave up her immortality?

Hard to say. Elrond and Elros were given a choice, but all the descendents
of each were thus bound. From the wording in the appendices, I think that
Arwen's descendents were also bound. Her fundamental nature changed.

> Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
> publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?

It's called "History of Middle Earth" and is a large multi-volume set.
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 3:38:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:53:16 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
<cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:

>> Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
>> publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?
>
>It's called "History of Middle Earth" and is a large multi-volume set.

Yes, but how much of it is J.R.R. Tolkien, and how much is what his
son (or whom ever) has "finished" in J.R.R.'s stead?

-- M.J.
Anonymous
January 30, 2005 10:23:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2005 21:11:53 -0800, "Johnny1a" <shermanlee1@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >flesh-and-blood forms. Their _spiritual_ nature is different,
though,
> >as opposed to their relatively similar physical nature.
>
> So that's why they have to make a choice to go West or die mortal?
Do
> Arwen's kids get a choice, or are their souls automatically
considered
> human because Arwen already gave up her immortality?

The thing is, Arwen has human ancestry too, as does her father and her
brothers.

Luthien was 'pure' Immortal on both sides, her falling in love with a
human had repercussions that went all the way up the ladder, in the end
God laid down special rules for her descendants.

Elrond and Elros were granted the choice of which Kindred they would be
counted with. If they chose mortality, their descendants would
likewise be irrevocably mortal. If they chose immortality, their
descendants retained a period of time in which they themselves could
choose to be mortal if they wished.
Shermanlee
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:22:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:p 96qv0h9gkpsa5an8o3vrsf5npmvef6l84@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:53:16 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
> <cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>
>>> Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
>>> publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?
>>
>>It's called "History of Middle Earth" and is a large multi-volume set.
>
> Yes, but how much of it is J.R.R. Tolkien, and how much is what his
> son (or whom ever) has "finished" in J.R.R.'s stead?

It's pretty much all J.R.R.'s stuff, "unfinished" but annotated. It's
"drafts", "notes", and other such items.
Anonymous
February 7, 2005 6:00:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <Xns95EABCB37E924Yarblookie@216.196.97.136> on Wed, 26 Jan 2005
17:32:54 -0600, cavaggione@comcast.ten (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:

> Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
> news:mi8ev05ualbtspujhurpkpn070js1oq4nj@4ax.com:
>
> > On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
> > thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
> > for any earthly being.
>
> As far as Tolkien was concerned, only the Avari would have been earthly
> beings as far as Elves were concerned. Galadriel was no earthly being.
> She had seen the Light of the Silmarils, firsthand.

I'm not sure I'd go quite as far as "only the Avari" on that. The handful
of surviving Calaquendi, which includes Galadriel, are way beyond the
earthly - but remember they're also at least 7,000 years old and lived in
interesting times. But an ordinary Eldar of more recent birth, of
Nandorin or Sindarin descent (green-elf, like Legolas, or grey-elf like
the population of Rivendell and the Havens) is much more earthly than
that.

The point is, really, that the scale for elves starts in a pretty similar
region to competent humans but the top end is much much higher. The
greatest elves of the Third Age are Elrond and Galadriel.

Getting back to the original question, Galadriel is staggeringly beautiful
by Elf standards. There's a story somewhere about Feanor falling for her
when they were back in Valinor and propositioning her (she turned him
down).

I'd give Galadriel, Arwen and Luthien Transcendent Beauty. I'd also drop
in a bunch of other things (Luthien defintiely has Voice, for example) and
make Galadriel a complete reaction monster. Note that a negative reaction
to Galadriel just doesn't happen. (eg Frodo offers her the Ring).

I'm actually tempted to go as high as Beautiful as the norm for Tolkien
High-Elves. I can't think of a single elflord in the entire mythology who
shouldn't have at least Beautiful/Handsome. Physical beauty is used
pretty consistently as a sign of lineage among elves. Galradiel, for
example, is the daughter of Finarfin and is therefore descended from all
three houses of the Eldar.

--
Richard Gadsden
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire
!