Galadriel's Appearance?

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Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
+25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
(another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.

On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
for any earthly being.

Should I just chalk it up to Elves being +1 Appearance level compared
to humans, and thereby boost Galadriel beyond human norms because
she's one of the prettiest of the Elven race?

(Or, has anyone else make LotR characters for GURPS 4e?)


-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
>+25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf

Universal is automatically Impressive. And yes, of course she would.

>(another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
>
>On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
>thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
>for any earthly being.

Elfs aren't entirely earthly. That's why they get their bony asses
kicked off Earth.

 

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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:39:44 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>Universal is automatically Impressive. And yes, of course she would.

So it's not possible to have a Transcendent goddess who can get +8 to
seduce males of other species? She only gets +8 with male deities,
and gets the generic modifier for other males?

Impressive represents "...exceptional physical presence that doesn't
manifest as sexual magnetism.... typical of tigers and aged royalty."
This seems to be citing examples that are Impressive to any race in
the first place, so why pay an extra 25% for Univesal if it doesn't
allow the sexual magnetism modifier to extend to other races?

I mean, wouldn't Aphrodite appeal more to men than to nymphs?


>Elfs aren't entirely earthly. That's why they get their bony asses
>kicked off Earth.

Well, Tolkien's Elves were born from the Earth (way off in the East, I
believe), as opposed to being beamed-down like the Wizards. I think
the reason they left in the end was because the Earth was changing.
Perhaps things like physics made it impossible for them to stay -- not
unlike other genres such as the World of Darkness.


-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:mi8ev05ualbtspujhurpkpn070js1oq4nj@4ax.com:

> On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
> thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
> for any earthly being.

As far as Tolkien was concerned, only the Avari would have been earthly
beings as far as Elves were concerned. Galadriel was no earthly being.
She had seen the Light of the Silmarils, firsthand.

 

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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
> +25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
> (another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
>
> On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
> thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
> for any earthly being.

Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
and loads of Charisma.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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In article <qpmev091bmf83emiesmeloe5t5fp3ilalh@4ax.com>,
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
>carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
>> +25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
>> (another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
>>
>> On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
>> thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
>> for any earthly being.
>
>Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
>beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
>in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
>you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
>and loads of Charisma.

Yet it's possible for Eomer to see Arwen (Galadriel's granddaughter) as more
beautiful; Arwen never lived in Valinor like Galadriel did so isn't quite so
"nearly unearthly".
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:59:18 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
>beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
>in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
>you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
>and loads of Charisma.

But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
seem to have the right stuff.

I guess we really need to pin down what Transcendent means. Does it
mean you're radiating holy light, or just that you're *the* handsomest
person that ever lived? If the latter, then both Elves would probably
have Transcendent, with Galadriel having a separate "awe" power.


-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:53mfv01b7fudqfcuq3lfbu3qoj61gr72f6@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:59:18 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>>Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
>>beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
>>in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
>>you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
>>and loads of Charisma.
>
> But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
> based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
> seem to have the right stuff.

Arwen has never seen the Light. She is a child of mortal lands and never
touched the places of the Blessed.

 

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Red Beard wrote:
> Would Galadriel have Appearance (Transcendent; Impressive; Universal,
> +25%) [25]? She's obviously capable of accidentally seducing a Dwarf
> (another race), but that might just have been a peculiarity of Gimli.
[...]

The way I've understood the novel, she was an extremely
attractive female, not just to Humans and Elves, but also in
the eyes of Dwarves. She was definitely outside the scope of
the Appearance scale from GURPS 3E and earlier (in other
words: *beyond* Very Beautiful).

But also don't forget that part of what works for Gimli is
that Galadriel can empathize with his fascination with
mountains and other Dwarven things. That's what helps him to
see her as "one of his kin", on some level, as opposed to
wholly alien. For starters, give Galadriel CF: Dwarven, and
some kind of Appreciate Beauty skill pertaining to
mountains, mines and the like.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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>> But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
>> based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
>> seem to have the right stuff.

>Arwen has never seen the Light. She is a child of mortal lands and
never
>touched the places of the Blessed.

But Arwen *is* the great(-great-)grandchild of Melian, a Maia--in
essence,
an angel. Which makes up for a lot. Personally, I'd give Galadriel
more
Charisma and impressive presence, and Arwen more sheer looks. And
Luthien slightly more looks than Arwen, if you want to get into that.


--Neon Fox

 

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I think Transcendent makes sense for at least some Tolkien elves, given
that they aren't really earthly beings - they're really more like a
lower order of angels, especially those that have been to the West and
experienced the light of the Trees.

 

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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:49:19 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:59:18 +1300, Rupert Boleyn
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >Galadriel nearly isn't an earthly being, but I don;t know that her
> >beauty is 'Impressive' - I think it's probably still somewhat 'sexual'
> >in nature. I'd be happy with Trancendant, but if it really bothers
> >you, you could just go with Very Attractive (Universal, +25%), Voice,
> >and loads of Charisma.
>
> But then where do we put Arwen? If Galadriel's awesome presence is
> based on her appearance, then Arwen -- however beautiful -- doesn't
> seem to have the right stuff.

By making Galadriel Very Attractive, and Arwen Trancendent. Or you can
just say that Galadriel just wasn't Eomer's type, or his reaction roll
towards her was a bit poor.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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I don't really see how any Elf can be considered otherworldly by
nature, since (from what little I've read) they're all descended from
the first Elves that awoke in Cuiviénen (some place in the far East).

Though it's not unreasonable to assume that Elves are capable of
evolving spiritually, I think it's a mistake to place them in the same
category as "angels". That should be reserved for the Ainur.

Unless the texts I've read are wrong -- and I have no way to know,
since I never finished reading the Silmarillion -- the Elves are flesh
and blood creatures just like everything else. They awoke in the
East, and were not "beamed down" like the Valar and Maiar.

So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.

As it stands now, I think since the 4E Characters book's generic Elf
template includes Attractive Appearance, I'll just assume that all
Elves get +1 level of Appearance over their human counterparts.

Perhaps instead of a high Appearance for Gandalf the White, it would
be better to add Terror, somewhat as the 4E book suggests. Any
suggestions?

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:

> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.

Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.

 

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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
<cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:

>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>
>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>
>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.

Yes, and that differentiates him from the Elves. They may not die
from old age, but they are still part of Creation. Gandalf, being
effectively an angel from outside Creation, would probably qualify for
all kinds of things that only the most powerful of Elves ever achieve.

However, when it comes to Gandalf the White's level of Appearance, I
think it's best to make him Attractive -- just enough to qualify him
for the Universal enhancement. What do you think?

I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.

-- M.J.

 

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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:14:12 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>Unless the texts I've read are wrong -- and I have no way to know,
>since I never finished reading the Silmarillion -- the Elves are flesh
>and blood creatures just like everything else. They awoke in the
>East, and were not "beamed down" like the Valar and Maiar.
>
>So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.

You are way, way overthinking this. Galadriel pegs the meter when it
comes to beauty, and her beauty applies even to species that would
normally not be attracted to females who have no beards. She has
Universal appeal and probably Very Beautiful if not Awesome. Arwen is
just Very Beautiful but has no Universal advantage (meaning she's
actually MORE attractive sexually, but not quite as generally
impressive).

>
>As it stands now, I think since the 4E Characters book's generic Elf
>template includes Attractive Appearance, I'll just assume that all
>Elves get +1 level of Appearance over their human counterparts.
>
>Perhaps instead of a high Appearance for Gandalf the White, it would
>be better to add Terror, somewhat as the 4E book suggests. Any
>suggestions?

Yes. Gandalf is kind of impressive, but not really all that good
looking and far short of awe inspiring unless he puts an effort into
Intimidating you. He most certainly does not have Terror, since if he
did, everyone who looked at him would scream and run away. I'd give
him Attractive.

 

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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:57:51 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>You are way, way overthinking this.

If I am, it's because GURPS still hasn't made it perfectly clear what
constitutes different levels of Appearance. Before, everyone was
limited to "Very Beautiful/Handsome". Now this new "Transcendent"
comes along, and I'm not sure whether it's meant for regular folks or
is reserved for super-humans.

Then you throw in the modifiers from things like Universal, and it
gets really confusing. For example, why should a Transcendent woman
be able to seduce men better than a Transcendent/Universal goddess?!?
No, go back and read the same rules you've been preaching to me -- the
woman will get +8 reaction with men, while the goddess of love gets
only +5, even with her fellow gods!

Obviously I can't read the writers' minds, but I think that Universal
was only meant to provide a way for Appearance bonuses to influence
others races/species. Otherwise, why would the goddess of love pay
+25% for Universal if it's going to *reduce* her effect on males?

-- M.J.

 

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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
<cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:

>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>
>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>
>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>

Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
looks.

 

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>I don't really see how any Elf can be considered otherworldly by
>nature,

Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
end of Book I, Fellowship).

> I think it's a mistake to place [Elves] in the same
>category as "angels". That should be reserved for the Ainur.

1) Melian, a Maia, is an Ainu.
2) Melian is the mother of Luthien, who is Arwen's great- or
great-great grandmother.
3) Therefore, Arwen is not too many generations removed
from an 'angel', and that's one of the reasons she's so
gorgeous.

If you must have stats, I'd do it as follows:
Make Galadriel Very Beautiful, with Universal and loads
of Charisma.
Make Arwen Transcendant, without Universal and with
less Charisma.
Make Luthien Transcendant, with Universal and about
the same amount of Charisma as Arwen.

Remember Luthien is "fairest", while Arwen is "the
likeness of Luthien come again".

--Neon Fox

 

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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:45:25 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:57:51 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) wrote:
>
>>You are way, way overthinking this.
>
>If I am, it's because GURPS still hasn't made it perfectly clear what
>constitutes different levels of Appearance. Before, everyone was
>limited to "Very Beautiful/Handsome". Now this new "Transcendent"
>comes along, and I'm not sure whether it's meant for regular folks or
>is reserved for super-humans.

It _is_ reserved for super-humans, but Galadriel _is_ a super-human.

>
>Then you throw in the modifiers from things like Universal, and it
>gets really confusing. For example, why should a Transcendent woman
>be able to seduce men better than a Transcendent/Universal goddess?!?
>No, go back and read the same rules you've been preaching to me -- the
>woman will get +8 reaction with men, while the goddess of love gets
>only +5, even with her fellow gods!

Just because you are a goddess doesn't mean you _have_ to have
Universal.


>
>Obviously I can't read the writers' minds, but I think that Universal
>was only meant to provide a way for Appearance bonuses to influence
>others races/species. Otherwise, why would the goddess of love pay
>+25% for Universal if it's going to *reduce* her effect on males?

She isn't, of course, if she's the sexpot deity type. Instead she'll
get Transcendent Beauty, and if she wants to appeal to species that
have no use for a woman with no beard or only two eyes, she'll learn
Shapeshifting. Being a goddess doesn't mean you _have_ to take
Universal.

 

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In article <41f957fe.1411211818@news.telusplanet.net>,
David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
><cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>
>>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>>
>>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>>
>>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>>
>
>Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
>looks.

He does wear a physical body which is that of an elderly (but quite spry
and healthy) mortal man. Not *like* a mortal body, but an actual one;
it's unaging but does get killed at one point (he gets better). As such,
he's got a pleasant grandfatherly look with the beard and the pipe and
everything, and manners to suit. Probably Attractive in GURPS terms,
plus a bit of Charisma and such. Voice maybe.

All that is without using Maia mojo, which he doesn't, most of the time.
He could be more impressive if he wanted to.

--
Leif Kjønnøy, cunctator maximus. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk

 

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In article <ctd8vv$tgv$2@orkan.itea.ntnu.no>,
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>In article <41f957fe.1411211818@news.telusplanet.net>,
>David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
>><cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>>>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
>>>news:gghiv0pvskme6vun7v4qt960jrdih6h87k@4ax.com:
>>>> So, as you can see, this is why I'm having difficulty deciding on how
>>>> to apply the various levels of Appearance to characters like Arwen,
>>>> Galadriel, and even Gandalf the White.
>>>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>>Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
>>looks.
>He does wear a physical body which is that of an elderly (but quite spry
>and healthy) mortal man. Not *like* a mortal body, but an actual one;
>it's unaging but does get killed at one point (he gets better). As such,
>he's got a pleasant grandfatherly look with the beard and the pipe and
>everything, and manners to suit. Probably Attractive in GURPS terms,
>plus a bit of Charisma and such. Voice maybe.
>
>All that is without using Maia mojo, which he doesn't, most of the time.
>He could be more impressive if he wanted to.

His ring Narya had the power to inspire men..
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.

 

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In article <kobjv0ph93v08v9ekpli60ur3msq65amuj@4ax.com>,
Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
>think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
>he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.

How can it be universal when creatures of the Dark fear him?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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In article <ctd8vv$tgv$2@orkan.itea.ntnu.no>,
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>In article <41f957fe.1411211818@news.telusplanet.net>,
>David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:04 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
>><cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>>>Gandalf is a Maia, not the slightest bit mortal.
>>>
>>
>>Which doesn't matter in the least since he hardly has super good
>>looks.
>[...]
>All that is without using Maia mojo, which he doesn't, most of the time.
>He could be more impressive if he wanted to.

And in fact is occasionally. He overawes Bilbo early in LOTR, and as Gandalf
the White is sometimes described as shining in appearance (by which Tolkein
might have partly meant actual light, but which I'm fairly sure is meant
also allegorically to mean an impressive appearance).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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On 28 Jan 2005 05:09:29 -0800, "Neon Fox" <neonfox@volcanomail.com>
wrote:

>Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
>missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
>have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
>simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
>end of Book I, Fellowship).

Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"? What about Men?


>3) Therefore, Arwen is not too many generations removed
>from an 'angel', and that's one of the reasons she's so
>gorgeous.

That would seem to be an odd exception, whereas otherwise the Elves
are purely creatures of Creation. If *only* angel-related people can
reach Transcendent Appearance, then I tend to agree with your
assessment below...

>Make Galadriel Very Beautiful, with Universal and loads
>of Charisma.
>Make Arwen Transcendant, without Universal and with
>less Charisma.
>Make Luthien Transcendant, with Universal and about
>the same amount of Charisma as Arwen.

>Remember Luthien is "fairest", while Arwen is "the
>likeness of Luthien come again".



-- M.J.