Gurps Traveller Languages question

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I have looked a bit through my sources, but couldn't find the Language
spoken in Federation of Arden. Has anybody comes across it before?

 

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On 10 Mar 2005 06:05:07 -0800, "mathilda" <smart_aleck72@yahoo.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>I have looked a bit through my sources, but couldn't find the Language
>spoken in Federation of Arden. Has anybody comes across it before?

It used to be part of the Imperium, so Galangic is a good bet.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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"mathilda" <smart_aleck72@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I have looked a bit through my sources, but couldn't find the Language
>spoken in Federation of Arden. Has anybody comes across it before?

It was settled from Vilani/Imperial space, and spent a good chunk of its
history as part of the Third Imperium, so a good bet would be all of the
common languages of the Third Imperium - Galanglic and Vilani would be
the most common.

Since its independence, it's been used as a semi-clandestine neutral
ground between the Zhodani and Imperium, so I wouldn't be surprised to
hear the Zhodani analogue to Galanglic there, although it would *not* be
a major language.

Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

 

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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
<jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?

Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
Vilani, and Arfikaans.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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We use the main "national" languages quite a bit. For "planetary
dialects" it usually involves roleplaying - Mora dialect may be prim
English accept, Regina a Southern Drawl. largely started as a joke but
over time added a lot to the game.

On a slightly different topic, does anybody differentiate over the
"technical familiarity" across the cultures? For example, to for
engineers to work on Aslan drives we require a role against
Mathmatics(Aslan) to relfect the base 8 math system. While math may be
universal, describing it is not. just look what NASA did with a
Metric/English conversion problem, now imagine an Imperial-trained
mechanic trying to interperate a schematic in a different numbering
base and strange units of measure.

 

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Perhaps I misused the word, but for example how many ounces in a dram?
And while I speak English (I'm an American) just the same as Canada and
England, I don't have a good handle on the meaning of an instruction to
"apply 4 kg of torque to until the widget moved 67 cm". Now imagine an
Imperial engineer working with guages in a Hiver ship (base 6 with
foreign units of measure). tech levels are the same, but they would
have no clue what they meant.

As a programmer, I am familiar with different number base formats, but
other people who speak English very well don't undestand meaning "How
about some 45?" if they are thinking decimal and I'm thinking hex.

My point is that we treat "the language of mathematics" differently and
don't assume it is a included subset of the verbal language. This has
the advantage of allowing a mechanic/engineer to be familiar with hiver
engines but not requiring them to speak the language.

I do like the idea of treating it as a familiarity rather than
requiring the Mathematics (Hiver) skill.

 

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Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
[...]
> Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
> color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?

I don't recall GURPS Traveller 2nd Edition going into any
kind of detail on the issue.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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mathilda wrote:
> We use the main "national" languages quite a bit. For "planetary
> dialects" it usually involves roleplaying - Mora dialect may be prim
> English accept, Regina a Southern Drawl. largely started as a joke but
> over time added a lot to the game.
>
> On a slightly different topic, does anybody differentiate over the
> "technical familiarity" across the cultures? For example, to for
> engineers to work on Aslan drives we require a role against
> Mathmatics(Aslan) to relfect the base 8 math system. While math may be

That's moronic. Mathematics are independent of the numerical
system used. Please don't confuse the field with arithmetics.

(It always bothers me when people say that some RPG rules
systems are mathematics-heavy. I've never *heard* of an RPG
rules system which actually required any usage of
mathematics, whether during character creation or during the
actual play session. The people behind Alternate Realities
did use mathematics while designing the system, but that's a
whole different story).

> universal, describing it is not. just look what NASA did with a
> Metric/English conversion problem, now imagine an Imperial-trained
> mechanic trying to interperate a schematic in a different numbering
> base and strange units of measure.

A case can be made for Technology Familiarity, along the
same lines as Cultural Familiarity (from GURPS 4th Edition).

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:35:25 +0100, Peter Knutsen
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>
>mathilda wrote:
>> We use the main "national" languages quite a bit. For "planetary
>> dialects" it usually involves roleplaying - Mora dialect may be prim
>> English accept, Regina a Southern Drawl. largely started as a joke but
>> over time added a lot to the game.
>>
>> On a slightly different topic, does anybody differentiate over the
>> "technical familiarity" across the cultures? For example, to for
>> engineers to work on Aslan drives we require a role against
>> Mathmatics(Aslan) to relfect the base 8 math system. While math may be
>
>That's moronic. Mathematics are independent of the numerical
>system used. Please don't confuse the field with arithmetics.
>
>(It always bothers me when people say that some RPG rules
>systems are mathematics-heavy. I've never *heard* of an RPG
>rules system which actually required any usage of
>mathematics, whether during character creation or during the
>actual play session. The people behind Alternate Realities
>did use mathematics while designing the system, but that's a
>whole different story).
>

Mathematics: The science that treats of the properties and relations
of quantities, comprising pure mathematics; which considers quantity
abstractly, as arithmetic, geometry, algebra...

Hey. My dictionary seems to think that arithmetic is a subdivision of
mathematics. That must be what fooled my school into thinking that
arithmetic is the most basic level of mathematics. Go fig.

 

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mathilda wrote:
[...]
> My point is that we treat "the language of mathematics" differently and
> don't assume it is a included subset of the verbal language. This has
> the advantage of allowing a mechanic/engineer to be familiar with hiver
> engines but not requiring them to speak the language.

That's a reasonable point.

> I do like the idea of treating it as a familiarity rather than
> requiring the Mathematics (Hiver) skill.

The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.

What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?
There are even some atmosphere types which warrant it.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:16:02 +0100, Peter Knutsen
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>

>
>> I do like the idea of treating it as a familiarity rather than
>> requiring the Mathematics (Hiver) skill.
>
>The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.
>
>What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?

They have it for gravity.

 

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David Johnston wrote:
> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.
>>
>>What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?
>
>
> They have it for gravity.

For each individual gravity category, purchasable seperately?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:27:05 +0100, Peter Knutsen
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>
>David Johnston wrote:
>> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>>The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.
>>>
>>>What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?
>>
>>
>> They have it for gravity.
>
>For each individual gravity category, purchasable seperately?

Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for 1
point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.

 

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David Johnston wrote:
> Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for 1
> point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.

In 3E? Cool...

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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Peter Knutsen wrote:
> David Johnston wrote:
> > Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for
1
> > point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.

>
> In 3E? Cool...
>

You're qualified to flame someone for the misuse of the word
"mathematics", but you've never read GURPS: Space?

Interesting.

--
C.

 

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On 13 Mar 2005 12:33:25 -0800, chaos_israel@antisocial.com wrote:

>
>Peter Knutsen wrote:
>> David Johnston wrote:
>> > Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for
>1
>> > point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.
>
>>
>> In 3E? Cool...
>>
>
>You're qualified to flame someone for the misuse of the word
>"mathematics", but you've never read GURPS: Space?
>

Well I checked the version in GURPS: Space (1st edition) and it is
actually different in that they added the ability to purchase gravity
familiarities separately, later. Not that he has a valid point about
"mathematics".

 

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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindobviousspring.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
> <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
> rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
>
>>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
>>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?
>
> Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
> Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
> Vilani, and Arfikaans.

Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.

Ofcourse cosmopolitan people and everyone with anything at all to do with
trade will also speak Galanglic, and any decent education system will
teach Galanglic as a second language, but don't expect everyone to be
fluent in it.


mcv.

 

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mcv wrote:

> Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindobviousspring.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
>><jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
>>rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
>>
>>
>>>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
>>>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?
>>
>>Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
>>Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
>>Vilani, and Arfikaans.
>
>
> Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
> from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
> the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
> third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
> settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
> during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
> language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
> on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
> Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
> need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.

I think, with audio recordings language changes have slowed down, and
some regional differences have, while not disappearing, become less
pronounced.

I don't think it will stop language drift (especially over a thousand
year time frame) but it may slow it down considerably.

>
> Ofcourse cosmopolitan people and everyone with anything at all to do with
> trade will also speak Galanglic, and any decent education system will
> teach Galanglic as a second language, but don't expect everyone to be
> fluent in it.
>
> mcv.

Tom A.
<insert dumb comment about Jesus speaking English>

 

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It would seem likely that Cleon I would have forseen and incorporated
some means of enforcing language standards upon the media to maintain a
mainstream Galanglic. And then there is the influence of the nobility
(which really represents and maintains Imperial Culture) which I would
see resistant to language changes. For example, if the Romans were
still around the senators may be speaking to one another is something
closely resembling classical latin, but the lower classes in Rome would
be speaking Italian.

 

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Tom A. <meteoricshipyards@yahoo.com> wrote:
> mcv wrote:
>> Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindobviousspring.com> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
>>><jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
>>>rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
>>>
>>>>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
>>>>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?
>>>
>>>Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
>>>Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
>>>Vilani, and Arfikaans.
>>
>> Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
>> from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
>> the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
>> third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
>> settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
>> during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
>> language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
>> on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
>> Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
>> need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.
>
> I think, with audio recordings language changes have slowed down, and

Perhaps, but they also help to spread slang.

> some regional differences have, while not disappearing, become less
> pronounced.

The EU actually stimulates regional languages. Frysian is now a written
language, which it wasn't in the past. I believe some other regional
languages which weren't even recognised as full languages instead of
dialects, now have the same status as Frysian. And several Dutch dialects
which really are dialects and not languages are still pretty incomprehensible
to me.

> I don't think it will stop language drift (especially over a thousand
> year time frame) but it may slow it down considerably.

It might, but I have my doubts about it. People on TV shows from 50 years
ago talk funny. Most people only watch relatively recent TV shows,
and the same goes for radio.

It's hard to predict what the long term effects will be, but I think there's
a good chance for a total nightmare of regional languages in the Third
Imperium. Consider the number of regional languages in a small country
like Netherland (16 million people), and compare it to the vast size
of the Third Imperium. I'd be surprised if people can understand each
other at all.


mcv.

 

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On 14 Mar 2005 10:45:46 GMT, mcv <mcvmcv@xs3.xs4all.nl> drained his
beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following

>Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
>from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
>the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
>third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
>settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
>during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
>language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
>on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
>Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
>need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.
>
>Ofcourse cosmopolitan people and everyone with anything at all to do with
>trade will also speak Galanglic, and any decent education system will
>teach Galanglic as a second language, but don't expect everyone to be
>fluent in it.

I've always played with the assumption that Galangic is everyone's
second language, and the language of choice for travellers and
diplomats. Much like Latin (or Greek) in the Roman Empire.

Get away from the starport, and you'll find people increasing speaking
whatever tongue evolved here. Some interesting mixes of languages are
possible.

I tell my players that if we actually travelled to the Third Imperium,
odds are we wouldn't understand a word. But for convince sake, we're
assuming that the languages are equivilant to their "archaic"
versions. So my Solomani fanatics in the New Orange Republic don't
actuall speak Afrikaans as it is spoken today, but something derived
from it.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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> Tom A. <meteoricshipyards@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>I think, with audio recordings language changes have slowed down, and
>>some regional differences have, while not disappearing, become less
>>pronounced. >

mcv replied:
> Perhaps, but they also help to spread slang.
and noted
> The EU actually stimulates regional languages. Frysian is now a written
> language, which it wasn't in the past. I believe some other regional
> languages which weren't even recognised as full languages instead of
> dialects, now have the same status as Frysian. And several Dutch dialects
> which really are dialects and not languages are still pretty incomprehensible
> to me.

Which would argue that they really are languages different from yours.
Except that one could almost certianly construct one or more chains of
dialects where between yours and theirs where the neighboring ones ARE
mutually intelligible, even though the ones at the end points aren't!

Which is why, e.g., the best break-point between several major Euro
languages is political rather than linguistic. It's been flippantly,
but not inaccurately, declared that a language is a dialect with an army
and/or navy.

That would imply that the national standard would have to used in giving
orders in the armed force. However, some conservative columnist has
pointed out that in the Belgian armed forces all commands are given in
French and Walloon, which would slow things down unacceptably--except,
the columnist asserts, they never expect to actually *fight,* so it
doesn't bother anybody!

>>I don't think it will stop language drift (especially over a thousand
>>year time frame) but it may slow it down considerably.

The very recent "Do You Speak American?" (Doubleday, 2005) asserts that
many local dialects are becoming MORE distinctive, apparently reacting
against the national televised standard--even tho they understand it
perfectly well!

> It might, but I have my doubts about it. People on TV shows from 50 years
> ago talk funny. Most people only watch relatively recent TV shows,
> and the same goes for radio.

Speak for yourself, child. Even on really old TV shows and
newsreels--say, from the 40s--I notice more regional (Eastern vs. my
Western) and formality differences than time-bound ones. However, I'm 57.

> It's hard to predict what the long term effects will be, but I think there's
> a good chance for a total nightmare of regional languages in the Third
> Imperium. Consider the number of regional languages in a small country
> like Netherland (16 million people), and compare it to the vast size
> of the Third Imperium. I'd be surprised if people can understand each
> other at all.

They'll manage somehow--just for a start, consider pidgins and
multilingualism.