Gurps Traveller Languages question

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

I have looked a bit through my sources, but couldn't find the Language
spoken in Federation of Arden. Has anybody comes across it before?
21 answers Last reply
More about gurps traveller languages question
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On 10 Mar 2005 06:05:07 -0800, "mathilda" <smart_aleck72@yahoo.com>
    drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
    drunkenly proclaimed the following

    >I have looked a bit through my sources, but couldn't find the Language
    >spoken in Federation of Arden. Has anybody comes across it before?

    It used to be part of the Imperium, so Galangic is a good bet.
    --

    Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
    Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
    when they do it from religious conviction."
    Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    "mathilda" <smart_aleck72@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >I have looked a bit through my sources, but couldn't find the Language
    >spoken in Federation of Arden. Has anybody comes across it before?

    It was settled from Vilani/Imperial space, and spent a good chunk of its
    history as part of the Third Imperium, so a good bet would be all of the
    common languages of the Third Imperium - Galanglic and Vilani would be
    the most common.

    Since its independence, it's been used as a semi-clandestine neutral
    ground between the Zhodani and Imperium, so I wouldn't be surprised to
    hear the Zhodani analogue to Galanglic there, although it would *not* be
    a major language.

    Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
    color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?

    --
    Jeff Zeitlin
    jzeitlin@cyburban.com
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
    <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
    rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

    >Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
    >color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?

    Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
    Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
    Vilani, and Arfikaans.
    --

    Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
    Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
    when they do it from religious conviction."
    Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    We use the main "national" languages quite a bit. For "planetary
    dialects" it usually involves roleplaying - Mora dialect may be prim
    English accept, Regina a Southern Drawl. largely started as a joke but
    over time added a lot to the game.

    On a slightly different topic, does anybody differentiate over the
    "technical familiarity" across the cultures? For example, to for
    engineers to work on Aslan drives we require a role against
    Mathmatics(Aslan) to relfect the base 8 math system. While math may be
    universal, describing it is not. just look what NASA did with a
    Metric/English conversion problem, now imagine an Imperial-trained
    mechanic trying to interperate a schematic in a different numbering
    base and strange units of measure.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    Perhaps I misused the word, but for example how many ounces in a dram?
    And while I speak English (I'm an American) just the same as Canada and
    England, I don't have a good handle on the meaning of an instruction to
    "apply 4 kg of torque to until the widget moved 67 cm". Now imagine an
    Imperial engineer working with guages in a Hiver ship (base 6 with
    foreign units of measure). tech levels are the same, but they would
    have no clue what they meant.

    As a programmer, I am familiar with different number base formats, but
    other people who speak English very well don't undestand meaning "How
    about some 45?" if they are thinking decimal and I'm thinking hex.

    My point is that we treat "the language of mathematics" differently and
    don't assume it is a included subset of the verbal language. This has
    the advantage of allowing a mechanic/engineer to be familiar with hiver
    engines but not requiring them to speak the language.

    I do like the idea of treating it as a familiarity rather than
    requiring the Mathematics (Hiver) skill.
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
    [...]
    > Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
    > color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?

    I don't recall GURPS Traveller 2nd Edition going into any
    kind of detail on the issue.

    --
    Peter Knutsen
    sagatafl.org
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    mathilda wrote:
    > We use the main "national" languages quite a bit. For "planetary
    > dialects" it usually involves roleplaying - Mora dialect may be prim
    > English accept, Regina a Southern Drawl. largely started as a joke but
    > over time added a lot to the game.
    >
    > On a slightly different topic, does anybody differentiate over the
    > "technical familiarity" across the cultures? For example, to for
    > engineers to work on Aslan drives we require a role against
    > Mathmatics(Aslan) to relfect the base 8 math system. While math may be

    That's moronic. Mathematics are independent of the numerical
    system used. Please don't confuse the field with arithmetics.

    (It always bothers me when people say that some RPG rules
    systems are mathematics-heavy. I've never *heard* of an RPG
    rules system which actually required any usage of
    mathematics, whether during character creation or during the
    actual play session. The people behind Alternate Realities
    did use mathematics while designing the system, but that's a
    whole different story).

    > universal, describing it is not. just look what NASA did with a
    > Metric/English conversion problem, now imagine an Imperial-trained
    > mechanic trying to interperate a schematic in a different numbering
    > base and strange units of measure.

    A case can be made for Technology Familiarity, along the
    same lines as Cultural Familiarity (from GURPS 4th Edition).

    --
    Peter Knutsen
    sagatafl.org
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:35:25 +0100, Peter Knutsen
    <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

    >
    >mathilda wrote:
    >> We use the main "national" languages quite a bit. For "planetary
    >> dialects" it usually involves roleplaying - Mora dialect may be prim
    >> English accept, Regina a Southern Drawl. largely started as a joke but
    >> over time added a lot to the game.
    >>
    >> On a slightly different topic, does anybody differentiate over the
    >> "technical familiarity" across the cultures? For example, to for
    >> engineers to work on Aslan drives we require a role against
    >> Mathmatics(Aslan) to relfect the base 8 math system. While math may be
    >
    >That's moronic. Mathematics are independent of the numerical
    >system used. Please don't confuse the field with arithmetics.
    >
    >(It always bothers me when people say that some RPG rules
    >systems are mathematics-heavy. I've never *heard* of an RPG
    >rules system which actually required any usage of
    >mathematics, whether during character creation or during the
    >actual play session. The people behind Alternate Realities
    >did use mathematics while designing the system, but that's a
    >whole different story).
    >

    Mathematics: The science that treats of the properties and relations
    of quantities, comprising pure mathematics; which considers quantity
    abstractly, as arithmetic, geometry, algebra...

    Hey. My dictionary seems to think that arithmetic is a subdivision of
    mathematics. That must be what fooled my school into thinking that
    arithmetic is the most basic level of mathematics. Go fig.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    mathilda wrote:
    [...]
    > My point is that we treat "the language of mathematics" differently and
    > don't assume it is a included subset of the verbal language. This has
    > the advantage of allowing a mechanic/engineer to be familiar with hiver
    > engines but not requiring them to speak the language.

    That's a reasonable point.

    > I do like the idea of treating it as a familiarity rather than
    > requiring the Mathematics (Hiver) skill.

    The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.

    What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?
    There are even some atmosphere types which warrant it.

    --
    Peter Knutsen
    sagatafl.org
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:16:02 +0100, Peter Knutsen
    <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

    >

    >
    >> I do like the idea of treating it as a familiarity rather than
    >> requiring the Mathematics (Hiver) skill.
    >
    >The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.
    >
    >What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?

    They have it for gravity.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    David Johnston wrote:
    > <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
    >>The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.
    >>
    >>What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?
    >
    >
    > They have it for gravity.

    For each individual gravity category, purchasable seperately?

    --
    Peter Knutsen
    sagatafl.org
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:27:05 +0100, Peter Knutsen
    <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

    >
    >David Johnston wrote:
    >> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
    >>>The Familiarity concept is wildly underused in GURPS.
    >>>
    >>>What about Terrain Familiarity? Or Gravity Familiarity?
    >>
    >>
    >> They have it for gravity.
    >
    >For each individual gravity category, purchasable seperately?

    Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for 1
    point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    David Johnston wrote:
    > Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for 1
    > point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.

    In 3E? Cool...

    --
    Peter Knutsen
    sagatafl.org
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    Peter Knutsen wrote:
    > David Johnston wrote:
    > > Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for
    1
    > > point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.

    >
    > In 3E? Cool...
    >

    You're qualified to flame someone for the misuse of the word
    "mathematics", but you've never read GURPS: Space?

    Interesting.

    --
    C.
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On 13 Mar 2005 12:33:25 -0800, chaos_israel@antisocial.com wrote:

    >
    >Peter Knutsen wrote:
    >> David Johnston wrote:
    >> > Yes. Look under G-Experience. You can purchase them separately for
    >1
    >> > point each or you can be familiar with all gravities for 10 points.
    >
    >>
    >> In 3E? Cool...
    >>
    >
    >You're qualified to flame someone for the misuse of the word
    >"mathematics", but you've never read GURPS: Space?
    >

    Well I checked the version in GURPS: Space (1st edition) and it is
    actually different in that they added the ability to purchase gravity
    familiarities separately, later. Not that he has a valid point about
    "mathematics".
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindobviousspring.com> wrote:
    > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
    > <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
    > rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
    >
    >>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
    >>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?
    >
    > Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
    > Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
    > Vilani, and Arfikaans.

    Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
    from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
    the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
    third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
    settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
    during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
    language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
    on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
    Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
    need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.

    Ofcourse cosmopolitan people and everyone with anything at all to do with
    trade will also speak Galanglic, and any decent education system will
    teach Galanglic as a second language, but don't expect everyone to be
    fluent in it.


    mcv.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    mcv wrote:

    > Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindobviousspring.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
    >><jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
    >>rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
    >>
    >>
    >>>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
    >>>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?
    >>
    >>Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
    >>Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
    >>Vilani, and Arfikaans.
    >
    >
    > Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
    > from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
    > the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
    > third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
    > settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
    > during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
    > language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
    > on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
    > Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
    > need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.

    I think, with audio recordings language changes have slowed down, and
    some regional differences have, while not disappearing, become less
    pronounced.

    I don't think it will stop language drift (especially over a thousand
    year time frame) but it may slow it down considerably.

    >
    > Ofcourse cosmopolitan people and everyone with anything at all to do with
    > trade will also speak Galanglic, and any decent education system will
    > teach Galanglic as a second language, but don't expect everyone to be
    > fluent in it.
    >
    > mcv.

    Tom A.
    <insert dumb comment about Jesus speaking English>
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    It would seem likely that Cleon I would have forseen and incorporated
    some means of enforcing language standards upon the media to maintain a
    mainstream Galanglic. And then there is the influence of the nobility
    (which really represents and maintains Imperial Culture) which I would
    see resistant to language changes. For example, if the Romans were
    still around the senators may be speaking to one another is something
    closely resembling classical latin, but the lower classes in Rome would
    be speaking Italian.
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    Tom A. <meteoricshipyards@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > mcv wrote:
    >> Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindobviousspring.com> wrote:
    >>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:56 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
    >>><jzeitlin@cyburban.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
    >>>rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
    >>>
    >>>>Does anyone actually *use* languages in play, other than as "local
    >>>>color", i.e., imposing penalties for differing dialects or languages?
    >>>
    >>>Yup. In a sector I'm writing right now, there are two dialects of
    >>>Galangic (The Imperial and Terran forms), a corrupted version of
    >>>Vilani, and Arfikaans.
    >>
    >> Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
    >> from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
    >> the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
    >> third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
    >> settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
    >> during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
    >> language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
    >> on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
    >> Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
    >> need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.
    >
    > I think, with audio recordings language changes have slowed down, and

    Perhaps, but they also help to spread slang.

    > some regional differences have, while not disappearing, become less
    > pronounced.

    The EU actually stimulates regional languages. Frysian is now a written
    language, which it wasn't in the past. I believe some other regional
    languages which weren't even recognised as full languages instead of
    dialects, now have the same status as Frysian. And several Dutch dialects
    which really are dialects and not languages are still pretty incomprehensible
    to me.

    > I don't think it will stop language drift (especially over a thousand
    > year time frame) but it may slow it down considerably.

    It might, but I have my doubts about it. People on TV shows from 50 years
    ago talk funny. Most people only watch relatively recent TV shows,
    and the same goes for radio.

    It's hard to predict what the long term effects will be, but I think there's
    a good chance for a total nightmare of regional languages in the Third
    Imperium. Consider the number of regional languages in a small country
    like Netherland (16 million people), and compare it to the vast size
    of the Third Imperium. I'd be surprised if people can understand each
    other at all.


    mcv.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    On 14 Mar 2005 10:45:46 GMT, mcv <mcvmcv@xs3.xs4all.nl> drained his
    beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and drunkenly
    proclaimed the following

    >Funny you should mention Afrikaans, because that language split off
    >from Dutch only 4 centuries ago or something. Also consider how much
    >the languages on earth have changed in the last 2000 years. With the
    >third Imperium being over 1000 years old, and many planets having been
    >settled thousands of years before that and having been pretty isolated
    >during the long night, each planet is likely to have its very own
    >language. On older planets, they'll have developed from old Vilani,
    >on more recently settled planets, they may still be pretty similar to
    >Galanglic, but chances are that once the PCs leave the startown, they'll
    >need a translator if they want to talk to the locals.
    >
    >Ofcourse cosmopolitan people and everyone with anything at all to do with
    >trade will also speak Galanglic, and any decent education system will
    >teach Galanglic as a second language, but don't expect everyone to be
    >fluent in it.

    I've always played with the assumption that Galangic is everyone's
    second language, and the language of choice for travellers and
    diplomats. Much like Latin (or Greek) in the Roman Empire.

    Get away from the starport, and you'll find people increasing speaking
    whatever tongue evolved here. Some interesting mixes of languages are
    possible.

    I tell my players that if we actually travelled to the Third Imperium,
    odds are we wouldn't understand a word. But for convince sake, we're
    assuming that the languages are equivilant to their "archaic"
    versions. So my Solomani fanatics in the New Orange Republic don't
    actuall speak Afrikaans as it is spoken today, but something derived
    from it.
    --

    Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
    Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
    when they do it from religious conviction."
    Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

    > Tom A. <meteoricshipyards@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >>I think, with audio recordings language changes have slowed down, and
    >>some regional differences have, while not disappearing, become less
    >>pronounced. >

    mcv replied:
    > Perhaps, but they also help to spread slang.
    and noted
    > The EU actually stimulates regional languages. Frysian is now a written
    > language, which it wasn't in the past. I believe some other regional
    > languages which weren't even recognised as full languages instead of
    > dialects, now have the same status as Frysian. And several Dutch dialects
    > which really are dialects and not languages are still pretty incomprehensible
    > to me.

    Which would argue that they really are languages different from yours.
    Except that one could almost certianly construct one or more chains of
    dialects where between yours and theirs where the neighboring ones ARE
    mutually intelligible, even though the ones at the end points aren't!

    Which is why, e.g., the best break-point between several major Euro
    languages is political rather than linguistic. It's been flippantly,
    but not inaccurately, declared that a language is a dialect with an army
    and/or navy.

    That would imply that the national standard would have to used in giving
    orders in the armed force. However, some conservative columnist has
    pointed out that in the Belgian armed forces all commands are given in
    French and Walloon, which would slow things down unacceptably--except,
    the columnist asserts, they never expect to actually *fight,* so it
    doesn't bother anybody!

    >>I don't think it will stop language drift (especially over a thousand
    >>year time frame) but it may slow it down considerably.

    The very recent "Do You Speak American?" (Doubleday, 2005) asserts that
    many local dialects are becoming MORE distinctive, apparently reacting
    against the national televised standard--even tho they understand it
    perfectly well!

    > It might, but I have my doubts about it. People on TV shows from 50 years
    > ago talk funny. Most people only watch relatively recent TV shows,
    > and the same goes for radio.

    Speak for yourself, child. Even on really old TV shows and
    newsreels--say, from the 40s--I notice more regional (Eastern vs. my
    Western) and formality differences than time-bound ones. However, I'm 57.

    > It's hard to predict what the long term effects will be, but I think there's
    > a good chance for a total nightmare of regional languages in the Third
    > Imperium. Consider the number of regional languages in a small country
    > like Netherland (16 million people), and compare it to the vast size
    > of the Third Imperium. I'd be surprised if people can understand each
    > other at all.

    They'll manage somehow--just for a start, consider pidgins and
    multilingualism.
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