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GURPS deities and heroes

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Anonymous
June 1, 2005 4:03:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.

Hoping to find something convertable to GURPS, I looked through a few
of the Troy-inspired d20 suppliments that came out recently, but still
I found no stats. (I am dis-satisfied with the limited coverage of
the d20 "Deities & Demigods" suppliment, and with the heroes'
attribute assignments in the earlier AD&D books.)

Should I start a thread in the SJG forums?

-- Matt Jozwiak

More about : gurps deities heroes

Anonymous
June 1, 2005 11:41:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

That's where I'ld post the it, and here. Get as many opinions as
possible...


> Should I start a thread in the SJG forums?
>
> -- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 3:09:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Korin Duval wrote:
> On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>
> >Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
> >classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
> >having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.
>
> Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
> one thinking so.
> In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
> Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
> It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
> what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
> beaten in their specialty.
>
>
> Korin Duval
>
That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
relevant?
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 9:20:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

>Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.

Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
one thinking so.
In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
beaten in their specialty.


Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
June 2, 2005 10:45:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <429df817.2037828@powernews.libero.it>,
Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it> wrote:
>On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>
>>Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>>classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>>having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.
>
>Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
>one thinking so.
>In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
>Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
>It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
>what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
>beaten in their specialty.

I'm reminded of the superhero "The Tick". When asked what, exactly, does
it mean to be "nigh invulnerable", the author said he's immune to any sort
of damage unless it's funny.


--
"Out of the way, you slime, a physicist is coming!"
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 1:22:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]
>>
>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
>relevant?

Even if they need to fight them, they'll lose unless they play some
clever tricks: it's always so in mythology.

Even Hercules, to clean the Augias' Stables (gods' "impossible"
trial), couldn't do it with his mighty strenght and endurance alone...
He had to detour an entire river (the clever trick)!

Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
exploit... Et cetera.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 2:41:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42a021eb.1140937@powernews.libero.it>,
Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it> wrote:
>
>Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
>are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
>catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
>exploit... Et cetera.

There is an interesting occurence in Norse mythology, where one can
see how a mere mortal _might_ have been able to kill a god. At one
point, the god Hod is tricked into killing the god Balder by the
trickster Loki. Now, Loki is a god but it's not inconcievable that
some very capable mortal might have been able to pull off the same
scam as Loki did. But it does emphasize the point that mortals are
unlikely to kill gods by sheer might - social engineering seems a much
better bet :-)

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 6:59:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:41:48 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

[...]
>There is an interesting occurence in Norse mythology, where one can
>see how a mere mortal _might_ have been able to kill a god. At one
>point, the god Hod is tricked into killing the god Balder by the
>trickster Loki. Now, Loki is a god but it's not inconcievable that
>some very capable mortal might have been able to pull off the same
>scam as Loki did. But it does emphasize the point that mortals are
>unlikely to kill gods by sheer might - social engineering seems a much
>better bet :-)

Nice example! I bet there are many, many others... Anyone up to it?

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 7:06:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard Jun 1, 12:03 am show options


>Red Beard wrote
>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:03:21 -0400

>Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.

I don't know of any, but 4th ed Fantasy does have a "racial template"
for minor dieties. IDHMBWM or I'd give you the page number.
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 7:34:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
>relevant?

I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
sake isn't enough. It's like whan you ask police about gun laws --
you get an icy stare, as if you're plotting to become a terrorist!

I, for one, do not believe deity stats are pointless. People have
stats, monsters have stats, intangible entities even have stats. What
if someone wants to play out the Titanomacy or some divine scenaio?
Would you actually tell them their desires are incompatible with a
"universal" RPG? This censor-like attitude is infuriating.

Today's science suggests that the monsters of Greek legend were
imagined from the fossils of large animals, such as an elephant's
sinus cavity resembling a cyclops' eye socket. Because of this we
know that at least some of these beings have specific sizes and
shapes, and therefore DO have stats. Why not the gods too?

Certain characters, like those in the Iliad, were practically given
grades when it came to how strong, fast, or skilled they were. I'd
hoped that, by now, some scholarly individual would've taken an
interest in statting them out for a game system or two.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 7:34:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
> this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
> want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
> sake isn't enough.

You're overreacting. If people had the stats available, you'ld be directed
to where to get them. If they don't have them the question of _why_ you
want them is intended to see if they can help develop the information, or
if they might have something else available that might serve. Information
about why they didn't answer the question is generally intended to give you
information about alternative ways of solving the problem.

Personally, I've developed a number 1,000 point characters, but I've never
fully statted out a god. I feel a relatively weak god might be possible at
2,500 points, but most of the gods people are familiar with will fall into
the 10,000+ point range. Thus, even a weak god in GURPS requires a lot of
effort for little return.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 7:43:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:22:40 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
>are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
>catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
>exploit... Et cetera.

And that's why I think it's silly to have all gods with an IQ of 40 or
whatever. There's been many times deities have been tricked by
mortals. Either they're not as smart as we think, or they had some
severe familiarity penalties regarding how humans think and act.

So what do you do when a PC wants to compete with a hero or god? It's
quite likely that Herakles could lose a game of intellect to a mortal;
a game of dexterity would be a challenge; strength he would win. Now
what do you do, since such things require stats?

Most people today seem to shape mythology to their beliefs. The
Judeo-Christian image of God being an all-powerful and omniscient
being is simply not the case in all ancient religions. In situations
like that you cannot just tell the challenger "the deity wins".

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 11:28:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:16:33 -0600, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>You're overreacting. If people had the stats available, you'ld be directed

You may be right. But in defense of my position, I'll say that I have
already made a similar inquiry in an AD&D forum, and the result was
the aforementioned "why even bother with stats" brush-off.


>to where to get them. If they don't have them the question of _why_ you
>want them is intended to see if they can help develop the information, or
>if they might have something else available that might serve. Information
>about why they didn't answer the question is generally intended to give you
>information about alternative ways of solving the problem.

My insterest isn't for running a game or even playing deity
characters. I just want an informed write-up based on scholarly
knowledge. There must be gamers out there who've studied the Iliad
and know what sounds right for which NPC. I've only read the book
once, and only in English.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 11:28:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:16:33 -0600, Jefferson
> <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>You're overreacting. If people had the stats available, you'ld be directed
>
> You may be right. But in defense of my position, I'll say that I have
> already made a similar inquiry in an AD&D forum, and the result was
> the aforementioned "why even bother with stats" brush-off.

Now _that's_ inexcusable.

Bastion Press: Egyptian Gods, Greek Gods, Norse Gods. (I heard that Norse
Gods was free.)

And I don't even play d20!

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 11:42:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Korin Duval wrote:
>> On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>> >classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>> >having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.
>>
>> Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
>> one thinking so.
>> In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
>> Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
>> It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
>> what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
>> beaten in their specialty.

Sorry, Hercules, Hulk is the strongest one there is.

>>
>>
>> Korin Duval
>>
>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>against or with these entities?

They might be. For that matter they might play gods themselves.
That "cosmic" power enhancement is in the rules for a reason, you
know.
Anonymous
June 3, 2005 11:42:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:42:27 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>>against or with these entities?
>
>They might be. For that matter they might play gods themselves.
>That "cosmic" power enhancement is in the rules for a reason, you
>know.

I don't even want to go there, because I know how some gamers react to
the idea of people playing deities. Words like "Monty" and "Munchkin"
come to mind. Just gimme the stats and save the insults. ;) 

Some think that "real" characters are those with a page of background
and 50% their point total in disadvantages to add "flavor" and prove
they're expert roleplayers. [Does that sound bitter?]

Just like the people who, when you mention Conan, say that their
tastes require more "sophistocated" literature like Tolkien or Anne
Rice or something. [Yes, definately bitter...]

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 2:08:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
>this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
>want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
>sake isn't enough.

Sometimes, the pursuit of stats is ridiculous.

Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
can alter that fate.

The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.

Having situations where mere mortals can alter the path of the Gods
through brute force is farcical, in my opinion. If one os going to
frustrate the Gods, one must use cunning.. and have very good bomb
shelter ready for the aftermath!
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 2:08:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:08:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
>gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
>her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.

There are many deities in the classical myths/religions that are NOT
just personifications. For example, Pontus was the sea, literally,
whereas Poseidon was just the god in charge of it in later eras.
Therefore not all deities are non-characters as you suggest.

I still haven't heard any suggestions about heroes though. That's the
other half of my inquiry. Out of the thousands of RPG writers in the
English-speaking world, why haven't any covered that topic?

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 2:28:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:08:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
>drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
>drunkenly proclaimed the following
>
>>I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
>>this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
>>want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
>>sake isn't enough.
>
>Sometimes, the pursuit of stats is ridiculous.
>
>Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
>can alter that fate.
>
>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy.

But she still got cut at Troy and retreated hastily from the field of
battle.
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 5:04:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:41:48 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

>In article <42a021eb.1140937@powernews.libero.it>,
>Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it> wrote:
>>
>>Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
>>are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
>>catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
>>exploit... Et cetera.
>
>There is an interesting occurence in Norse mythology, where one can
>see how a mere mortal _might_ have been able to kill a god. At one
>point, the god Hod is tricked into killing the god Balder by the
>trickster Loki. Now, Loki is a god but it's not inconcievable that
>some very capable mortal might have been able to pull off the same
>scam as Loki did.

Search the entire world and find the single herb that had been
overlooked and turn it into a lethal weapon? A mortal comparably
capable in strength really ought to be able to take on Thor in an
armwrestling competition.
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 6:10:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:54:24 -0600, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Bastion Press: Egyptian Gods, Greek Gods, Norse Gods. (I heard that Norse
>Gods was free.)

I shall investigate these sources, though I'm not going to get my
hopes up yet! ;) 

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 7:22:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:28:17 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps
beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

>>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy.
>
>But she still got cut at Troy and retreated hastily from the field of
>battle.

Yup. If you want Battle, call Ares or Athena.

If I need to involve deities, I either have avatars, projections of
the deities will onto the mortal plane, or servitors like angels who
do the deity's will in the places he can't go for whatever reason.

In my homebrewed Epic Europe campaign, there are only four "true" gods
(The Building Father [law], The Growing Mother [chaos], The Life
Bringer [good], and Unlife [evil]) Unlife is locked away while the
other three try to figure out how to get rid of him without destroying
the universe. The mortal plane is the battlefield between the gods. To
keep Unlife chained, the other three deities can't interfere too
directly in the mortal plane. Sending magical aid to clerics is one
thing, direct intervention even by agents "opens the door" for
Unlife's demonic hordes to slip through.

Actually meeting the deites would be fatal. Meeting the Building
Father, for example, would lock the character into stone-like
adherence to law. Meeting Unlife results in a few centuries of
torment before he finally destroys you.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 7:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 03:22:15 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>If I need to involve deities, I either have avatars, projections of
>the deities will onto the mortal plane, or servitors like angels who
>do the deity's will in the places he can't go for whatever reason.

I know that avatars have become a popular way to include deities in
RPG encounters, but I really feel the concept has been mis-applied.
If I remember correctly, an avatar is a Hindu(?) idea, which, like the
Judeo-Christian notion of omnipotence and omnipresence, has evolved
into the default for RPG deities. I don't think the Greek gods used
avatars, aside from perhaps sending visions.

That probably brings up another problem: Different religions,
pantheons, and creation myths conflicting. Each culture would
probably have a different style of magic (if any), though I still
maintain that most deities could be statted out -- at least in
comparison to eachother if not on a human scale.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 11:56:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 03:22:15 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:28:17 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps
>beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
>
>>>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>>>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>>>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>>>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy.
>>
>>But she still got cut at Troy and retreated hastily from the field of
>>battle.
>
>Yup. If you want Battle, call Ares or Athena.

Ares ALSO got run off the field of battle at Troy. But that's because
it was an Athenian writing the poem.
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 2:38:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:43:32 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>So what do you do when a PC wants to compete with a hero or god? It's
>quite likely that Herakles could lose a game of intellect to a mortal;
>a game of dexterity would be a challenge; strength he would win. Now
>what do you do, since such things require stats?

I'd use skill and stat checks. In this case, the first would take a
success against either IQ or a relevant skill, whichever is better; the
second would take a success against DX or a relevant skill, whichever is
worse; the third would take a critical success against ST.

<snip>

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 2:45:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <g3p1a1t0clmch61v84h2ulssohvr59df8e@4ax.com>,
Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

> I still haven't heard any suggestions about heroes though. That's the
> other half of my inquiry. Out of the thousands of RPG writers in the
> English-speaking world, why haven't any covered that topic?

Most of the Mythical gods of the Greek or Norse mythologies vary greatly in
abilities (and even their histories) depending on the source material. A god is
as smart/stupid strong/weak as he/she needs to be for the tale's moral to happen.

Using the old Villains and Vigilantes gaming system, I once stated up the
numbers for all the Marvel characters based on the descriptions in the Marvel
Universe comics (Long commute and I had a portable computer...). In that system,
hits and power points (read fatigue) were based on strength, endurance and
weight. When it came to characters like the Thing or The Hulk after calculating
their Strength and endurance, I didn't really need to go any farther. Does a
character with 17,000 hit points really need invulnerability?

More importantly, gods always seem to have laws or rules about everything. They
seem to get offended over the weirdest things and yet laugh at the most
egregious of insults. They seem to interfere in human affairs in a willy nilly
fashion often refusing to help when the need is greatest and yet they create
young godlings whenever a mortal babe bats her eyes.

I think it would be a major (MAJOR) endeavor just to stat up Zeus with all his
Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills, much less scaling all the other gods to
equivalent levels.

The question isn't "why haven't any covered that topic?" but who would make a
profit on a book that is sure to displease 50% of the buyers?
--
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men? The Shadow do!
--Flip Wilson
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 2:53:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:20:29 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>I still haven't heard any suggestions about heroes though. That's the
>other half of my inquiry. Out of the thousands of RPG writers in the
>English-speaking world, why haven't any covered that topic?

Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)

Check the other historical cultures' GURPS books for other cultures'
heroes.

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
Anonymous
June 4, 2005 7:01:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42a0a43d.33674144@news.telusplanet.net>,
David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
>Search the entire world and find the single herb that had been
>overlooked and turn it into a lethal weapon?

There was no searching involved since the goddess that had extracted
the vows was happy to tell Loki (under disguise at the time) that she
had let the mistletoe off the hook and that it was growing just
outside Valhalla which is where they were at in the first place.

The story is unclear as to how, exactly, the mistletoe was fashioned
into a lethal weapon. It might take a bit of brains, but hardly
impossible for a hero-level character.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 3:03:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:53:30 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
wrote:

>Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
>the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
>Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
>Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)

Oh... Well, like I mentioned earlier, I never had the opportunity to
read that one. Now I have an even worse problem: buy it now, or wait
for a new 4th Edition version to come out. Oh no!

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 3:49:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:03:20 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:53:30 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
>>the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
>>Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
>>Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)
>
>Oh... Well, like I mentioned earlier, I never had the opportunity to
>read that one. Now I have an even worse problem: buy it now, or wait
>for a new 4th Edition version to come out. Oh no!

Character conversion from 3e to 4e isn't that difficult, especially in
cases like this where point totals weren't given. Besides, it's not
likely that there'd be a 4e version of Greece any time soon... I'd say
buy it now if you can find a copy.

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 7:30:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

>NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:03:14 MST
>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:03:20 -0400
>Xref: news.telusplanet.net rec.games.frp.gurps:208806
>
>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:53:30 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
>>the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
>>Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
>>Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)
>
>Oh... Well, like I mentioned earlier, I never had the opportunity to
>read that one. Now I have an even worse problem: buy it now, or wait
>for a new 4th Edition version to come out. Oh no!

Buy it now if you want it. It is unlikely a 4th edition version will
come out.
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 12:28:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:nva1a1l9sri7c14ei2pdf2bf43qiorpsqs@4ax.com...

> On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
> <Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>>against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
>>relevant?
>
> I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
> this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
> want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
> sake isn't enough. It's like whan you ask police about gun laws --
> you get an icy stare, as if you're plotting to become a terrorist!
>



OK, I agree with you to some extent, and thus have to offer an apology,
although a qualified one.


Your "brick wall" analogy is not entirely appropriate because I'm just
voicing my opinion here, not preventing you from getting information. I
apologize if my opinion seems insulting, but I'm not taking the blame for
stonewalling your efforts.


> I, for one, do not believe deity stats are pointless. People have
> stats, monsters have stats, intangible entities even have stats. What
> if someone wants to play out the Titanomacy or some divine scenaio?
> Would you actually tell them their desires are incompatible with a
> "universal" RPG? This censor-like attitude is infuriating.
>

Again, "censor-like" implies that somehow I'm canceling out the answer to
your question, which I'm not.


> Today's science suggests that the monsters of Greek legend were
> imagined from the fossils of large animals, such as an elephant's
> sinus cavity resembling a cyclops' eye socket. Because of this we
> know that at least some of these beings have specific sizes and
> shapes, and therefore DO have stats. Why not the gods too?
>

My answer to this (I realize rhetorical) question is that the nature and
value of myth is not nearly that scientific. IMHO, you can destroy the
poetic quality of a story by introducing too much math and specific values.
You need not agree with me.
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 12:44:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

[...]
>I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
>this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
>want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
>sake isn't enough. It's like whan you ask police about gun laws --
>you get an icy stare, as if you're plotting to become a terrorist!

Wel,, it's resuidal of "D&D-ism". Have stats => can kill.

>I, for one, do not believe deity stats are pointless. People have
>stats, monsters have stats, intangible entities even have stats. What

In THIS attitude, deities'stats HAVE a meaning...

[...]
>Certain characters, like those in the Iliad, were practically given
>grades when it came to how strong, fast, or skilled they were. I'd
>hoped that, by now, some scholarly individual would've taken an
>interest in statting them out for a game system or two.

....but giving "official" stats is like imposing a certain point of
view on them.
It's better to suggest a range, or a ladder: "X is stronger than Y".

Hercules was "the strongest of the mortals". Has ST 20? Has ST 25? Has
ST 30? 40? 100?

See, it should be at GM's judgement "how far is the unreachable".

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 12:45:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

>>>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>>>against or with these entities?
>>
>>They might be. For that matter they might play gods themselves.
>>That "cosmic" power enhancement is in the rules for a reason, you
>>know.

For more than one reason, IMHO... ^________^

[...]
>Some think that "real" characters are those with a page of background
>and 50% their point total in disadvantages to add "flavor" and prove
>they're expert roleplayers. [Does that sound bitter?]

Yes, it sounds a bit so.
But you're right... The opposite side of the spectrum isn't any
brighter.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
Anonymous
June 5, 2005 6:22:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:28:36 -0700, "Scooter the mighty"
<Spambait@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Your "brick wall" analogy is not entirely appropriate because I'm just
>voicing my opinion here, not preventing you from getting information. I
>apologize if my opinion seems insulting, but I'm not taking the blame for
>stonewalling your efforts.

I understand what you mean about "brick wall" and "censor-like" being
too harsh. But what do you call it when the deliberate witholding of
assistance hampers one's search for knowledge?

Yes, it may sound a bit dramatic, but that attitude (not necessarily
yours though) is akin to the firemen watching the house burn down
because they didn't like the owner. (And that does happen, more
frequently that people suspect.) Perhaps a better analogy is the
scientist whose peers won't lift a finger to help him because they
don't approve of the unconventional way he does things.

Too many people seem to think they're such hot stuff, and that in
their presumptuous "wisdom" think it's their duty to stymie those
non-establishment folks who threaten to upset the status quo.

In fact, I'd better stop writing soon, because I'm getting downright
PO'd about how many punks there are out there -- half my age -- who
dare to presume authority over what I do and don't "need to know"!!!

Thanks for listening and answering what you could.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 5:02:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:58:47 -0700, "Scooter the mighty"
<Spambait@nowhere.com> wrote:

>But I'm not witholding assistance!

I didn't mean to suggest that YOU were, but rather members of the
role-playing community in general. Specifically, that such seems to
be a nasty trend, and while presumably intended to weed out the
"Munchkins", does damage outside its intended scope as well.

Hey, if the info's not out there, then that's that. I just wanted to
make sure I got past everybody's anti-Munchkin shields before
accepting that as being the uncensored truth.

>I think a better analogy is scientists who tell another scientist that what
>he or she wants to do isn't important. Which is, as it turns out, a really
>helpful thing that scientists do for each other.

Unless, for example, one of them has a book in the works and doesn't
want someone else to beat them to the punch... then what otherwise
looks like contructive criticism takes on a whole new significance. :o 

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 4:06:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

>Douglas Berry wrote
>Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
>can alter that fate.

Yes but that can easily be reflected in game stats. Unkillable 2 or 3
with a limitation except for how he's desitned to die at ragnarok.

>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
>gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
>her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.


These things can also be reflected in stats. If you interpret
Aphrodite's embodyment of love etc to be her reflecting what mortals do
use a variation of the Sea Aspected moods quirk used in Fantasy for the
seal Fey. If you figure it the other way around ie. The weather is
Thor's moods provide the apropriate advantages (have to wait for powers
for weather control) and add a nusance effect of the power being
unconsiously controlded by his mood, and of course enough increased
area to cover the part of the world that worships him.

IMO it's not that you can't create stat's for dieties, it's just that
it's a pain to get the power level high enough.
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 5:15:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:05:59 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>And greek gods can't be killed at all. But they CAN be and have been
>defeated.

Your one-liner solutions make me feel like I'm putting *way* too much
effort into typing this! :) 

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 5:21:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:47:00 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>>Several times in your message you've made belittling remarks and
>>insinuations. If you continue to insult me, I shall react strongly.
>
>This is me not shaking in my boots.

So be it. Where would you like to duel?

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 8:08:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <nqr8a1pgnatjr0su472jr1tqgilbk6e6be@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>Brushing aside whatever sarcasm was probably bogging down your
>>question: Yes, I do feel the need to get a professional consensus on
>>what Odin's (and other deities') stats would be.
>
>Why? Odin cannot be killed until Rangarok. He *is* magic and wisdom.

Stats can be useful for more than just killing the character. So what
if he has a cosmic Unkillable advantage - the question is what more
does he have?

(That said, "Unkillable, killable only by Fenris at Ragnarok" _is_ a
very important entry on his sheet, and one that it is important to
impart upon the GM.)

The sagas tell of Odin having various problems that he overcomes (or
not) in different ways. They also tell of him walking among mortals.
In these contexts, at least knowing what social advantages and
disadvantages he has can be of the highest interest. Also knowing what
his weak spots are (if any) can be of interest. And if he doesn't have
any, knowing _this_ is also very useful.

Reading a character write-up of Odin seems a much more effective means
of imparting this knowledge upon the GM than requiring him to read the
sagas and make up his own mind.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 8:08:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:09 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

>Reading a character write-up of Odin seems a much more effective means
>of imparting this knowledge upon the GM than requiring him to read the
>sagas and make up his own mind.

Additionally, I find it helpful to have human-sized stats for the
various deities, as if they'd been turned into mortals. Seeing Thor
have a ST of 19 or something seems much more helpful to me than just
*guessing* how muscular he looks with only super-human stats to go by.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 8:29:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:n719a11efd3780crko2k8d594sk065ei87@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:09 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
> Dalager) wrote:
>
>>Reading a character write-up of Odin seems a much more effective means
>>of imparting this knowledge upon the GM than requiring him to read the
>>sagas and make up his own mind.
>
> Additionally, I find it helpful to have human-sized stats for the
> various deities, as if they'd been turned into mortals. Seeing Thor
> have a ST of 19 or something seems much more helpful to me than just
> *guessing* how muscular he looks with only super-human stats to go by.
>
Hmmmm... Gurps Who's Who: Legends and Avatars?
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 10:57:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:21:51 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:47:00 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>Several times in your message you've made belittling remarks and
>>>insinuations. If you continue to insult me, I shall react strongly.
>>
>>This is me not shaking in my boots.
>
>So be it. Where would you like to duel?

East Range, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. The weapon of choice is the
M-24 Sniper Weapon System.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 10:57:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:57:48 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>East Range, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. The weapon of choice is the
>M-24 Sniper Weapon System.

It will have to be someplace on the continent that I can drive, bike,
or walk to, since I don't have access to a boat. Although I consider
the use of long-range firearms to be cowardly, if this M-24 thingie is
your choice, I'll try to oblige.

You may contact me privately by e-mail to schedule the details.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 12:54:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:28:05 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:57:48 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>East Range, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. The weapon of choice is the
>>M-24 Sniper Weapon System.
>
>It will have to be someplace on the continent that I can drive, bike,
>or walk to, since I don't have access to a boat. Although I consider
>the use of long-range firearms to be cowardly, if this M-24 thingie is
>your choice, I'll try to oblige.

I'll see if I get schedule some time in Badwater Flats.

I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
is!

>You may contact me privately by e-mail to schedule the details.

Feel free to hold your breath while I get around to that.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 12:54:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:54:26 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
>is!

I could never get used to it. I guess for some it's a power trip, but
it just made me feel like a pervert or something. As for bare-handed,
though that's not what I was suggesting, I guess that's fine too. If
you want my opinion, old-fashioned melee weapons are best.

>Feel free to hold your breath while I get around to that.

If you want to back down, at least have the courage to be plain about
it so I don't waste time preparing for something you won't show up at.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 3:03:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:25:12 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:54:26 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
>>is!
>
>I could never get used to it. I guess for some it's a power trip, but
>it just made me feel like a pervert or something. As for bare-handed,
>though that's not what I was suggesting, I guess that's fine too. If
>you want my opinion, old-fashioned melee weapons are best.

Y'see, I live in real world, where swords haven't been used seriously
in a century. My military training involves firearms and barehands.
If you want to go that route, I used to teach hand to hand at the US
Army Ranger School.

>>Feel free to hold your breath while I get around to that.
>
>If you want to back down, at least have the courage to be plain about
>it so I don't waste time preparing for something you won't show up at.

OK, you pay for everything, including my travel and accomodations, and
I'll show up. But I'm not spending a dime to deliver a smackdown to a
whiny child who is incapable of doing his own damn research and cries
about how mean everyone is.


--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 3:03:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:03:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>OK, you pay for everything, including my travel and accomodations, and
>I'll show up. But I'm not spending a dime to deliver a smackdown to a
>whiny child who is incapable of doing his own damn research and cries
>about how mean everyone is.

You're the one who accepted the challenge, but now you try to weasle
your way out with words? I've already stood my ground. Either back
up your snyde remarks or cower in silence.

-- Matt Jozwiak
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 9:45:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:14:12 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:03:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>OK, you pay for everything, including my travel and accomodations, and
>>I'll show up. But I'm not spending a dime to deliver a smackdown to a
>>whiny child who is incapable of doing his own damn research and cries
>>about how mean everyone is.
>
>You're the one who accepted the challenge, but now you try to weasle
>your way out with words? I've already stood my ground. Either back
>up your snyde remarks or cower in silence.

Pay my way. Or come out here. Or grow up. Your choice.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 8:10:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Red Beard schrieb:
>
> On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:54:26 GMT, Douglas Berry
> <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
> >is!
>
> I could never get used to it. I guess for some it's a power trip, but
> it just made me feel like a pervert or something. As for bare-handed,
> though that's not what I was suggesting, I guess that's fine too. If
> you want my opinion, old-fashioned melee weapons are best.

Gentlemen, Gentlemen...
As everybody knows, there is only *one* way to proper handle a duel:
Shotguns and observation balloons.

Bye
Ingo
!