Best system for balance between superpowered and unpowered..

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If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
minimize frustration?

Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
all...

--
Peter Knutsen
 
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On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>
>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,

Does a gadget hero have "supernatural" powers or not?

>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>minimize frustration?
>
>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?

GURPS. Mind you the supernatural abilities are not so great.
 
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In article <c7i422$9vf$1@news.cybercity.dk>,
Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk> wrote:

> If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
> powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
> which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
> minimize frustration?
>
> Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
> offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
> The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
> all...

I'd recomend Champions (HERO System) in your case. It doesn't make a
distinction between "supernatural" and "conventional" abilities. The
trick is to think of the ability first, and then figure out how to build
it (not always a simple task).

--
Joe Claffey | "Make no small plans."
jrc3@cox.net | -- Daniel Burnham
 
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rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<409c8e51.570336955@news.telusplanet.net>...
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
> >powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>
> Does a gadget hero have "supernatural" powers or not?
>
> >which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
> >minimize frustration?
> >
> >Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
> >offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>
> GURPS. Mind you the supernatural abilities are not so great.

This is suposed to get better with the fourth edition due out in
August, but no word yet on how. The current version isn't terible,
but it requires a lot more experience on the part of the GM and
players in knowing which optional rules to use to make it work. Also,
the fact that gurps 3rd ed. Supers is beter suited to low power games
might actualy work well for a mixed group of supers and normals.
 
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On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>
>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>minimize frustration?
>

Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
many fictional martial artists are "normal". Otherwise I think it's
an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).

>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
>all...

Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
 
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Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
>wrote:

>>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>>minimize frustration?

>Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
>have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
>balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
>many fictional martial artists are "normal".

I agree. A game like Champions allows you to create "normal"
characters who can easily play in the same league as the
super-powered types. The way it works, though, is essentially
to turn the normals into superheroes. Either they have gadgets
that mimic and fill in for superpowers, or they have capabilities
that are really just plain not possible for a normal human
being. For example, it's very easy to use the martial arts
rules to create a normal human who hits just as hard as
a guy who can lift a tank. But they're still normal, going
by the rules of the game and genre.

GURPS is similar. Normal characters either make use of
superpowered gadgets, or abilities that might as well
be supernatural such as Trained By A Master level
martial arts. As someone else said, GURPS might be
a better choice for a mixed normal/supers game since
the superpowers are in general not all that powerful.

Another thing I noticed long ago about GURPS is that
someone with the Guns skill and access to even commercially
available weapons and armor can easily be as powerful as
most super-types. This is good for some campaign concepts,
and very bad for others.

> Otherwise I think it's
>an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
>would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).

Yeah. It works fine in comic books, because the writers can
easily manage that kind of contrivance. In a game where the
GM doesn't have complete control of all the characters, though,
it can easily be a recipe for disaster.

Pete
 
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Wayne Shaw wrote:
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 10:01:12 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
> wrote:
>>If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
>>powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
>>which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
>>minimize frustration?
>
> Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
> have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
> balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and

Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
team, but it's DC).

> many fictional martial artists are "normal". Otherwise I think it's
> an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
> would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).

Hero attempts to achieve it with the "Normal Characteristics
Maxima" disad. Are there other superhero systems that strives
for something similar?

>>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>>The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
>>all...
>
> Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.

Not in violation of the laws of physics.

--
Peter Knutsen
 
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Peter Knutsen wrote:

>
> Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>> Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
>
> Not in violation of the laws of physics.

By that definition, Batman and Karate Kid (your examples of normals)
are on occassion supernatural.
 
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:52:54 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>> Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
>> have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
>> balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
>
>Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
>goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
>Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
>Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
>team, but it's DC).

Karate Kid? The guy who demolished tanks with his bare hands?
If that's "normal" then any given system can handle normals
just as easily as guys with powers.
 
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"Peter Knutsen" <peter@knutsen.dk> wrote in message
news:c7k9s4$p2b$1@news.cybercity.dk...
>
> Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
> goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
> Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
> Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
> team, but it's DC).

It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal logic of
that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the Legion
constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His "super
karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.


--
David Meadows
Heroes: www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts/
A comic book -- without the pictures
 
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On 8 May 2004 17:59:44 GMT, Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote:

>Another thing I noticed long ago about GURPS is that
>someone with the Guns skill and access to even commercially
>available weapons and armor can easily be as powerful as
>most super-types. This is good for some campaign concepts,
>and very bad for others.

And that's why the default case in superheroic games in Hero is that
normal weapons are _not_ free; for a normal or low powered supers
game, the higher end ones (like shotguns) have as much or almost as
much combat power as many attack powers.

>
>> Otherwise I think it's
>>an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
>>would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).
>
>Yeah. It works fine in comic books, because the writers can
>easily manage that kind of contrivance. In a game where the
>GM doesn't have complete control of all the characters, though,
>it can easily be a recipe for disaster.

And unless everyone is absolutely on board the idea, requires a
hideous amount of railroading.
 
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:52:54 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
wrote:

>> Depends how broadly you define "super powers". Most superhero games
>> have the capacity to create avowedly normal characters who are
>> balanced with superhuman ones, but only in the sense that Batman and
>
>Batman is a normal, as he has no supenatural powers. The same
>goes for that martial artist from the 3000 AD Legion of
>Superheroes or whatever it's called (I've only read about it in
>Danish translations, so I'm not sure of the original name of the
>team, but it's DC).

Then certainly, because you're willing to call impossible levels of
capability "normal".

>
>> many fictional martial artists are "normal". Otherwise I think it's
>> an oxymoron barring heavy GM screentime enforcement (and I think that
>> would require almost irrational levels of contrivance to work).
>
>Hero attempts to achieve it with the "Normal Characteristics
>Maxima" disad. Are there other superhero systems that strives
>for something similar?

But note that even NCM does not prevent a martial artist from having
enough martial damage classes to punch a hole in the side of a tank.
In the end, this is no more "normal" than a 50 Strength.

>
>>>Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
>>>offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
>>>The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
>>>all...
>>
>> Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
>
>Not in violation of the laws of physics.

How about biomechanics? Many things Batman does are essentially
impossible for the human body.
 
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David Meadows wrote:

>
> It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal logic of
> that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the Legion
> constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His "super
> karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.

I'd phrase it more as "beyond normal human levels".
I always felt Val's martial skill was given a hand wave as
being "practically a super power" so they could let him in.
It's no more a standard "superpower" than Bullseye's targetting
ability, or to a different extent, Brainiac 5's "computer brain".
 
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Wayne Shaw wrote:

> On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:52:54 +0200, Peter Knutsen <peter@knutsen.dk>
> wrote:
<snip>
>>>Again, depends on what you mean by non-supernatural.
>>
>>Not in violation of the laws of physics.
>
> How about biomechanics? Many things Batman does are essentially
> impossible for the human body.

Bats is a combo MArtist/Gadgeteer. Take away his toys and he's still
fairly kick-arse, and gets away with bending the laws of physics (and
yes, biomechanics) a fair amount. Without his toys, contacts and so on
he's /comparatively/ normal when you stack him up against the rest of
the Justice League frex.

I'd still back him in a fight against Lantern without his power ring
though :>

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"
 
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Sorcier wrote:

> David Meadows wrote:
>
>> It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal
>> logic of
>> that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the Legion
>> constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His
>> "super
>> karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.
>
> I'd phrase it more as "beyond normal human levels".
> I always felt Val's martial skill was given a hand wave as
> being "practically a super power" so they could let him in.
> It's no more a standard "superpower" than Bullseye's targetting
> ability, or to a different extent, Brainiac 5's "computer brain".

The ability to punch a hole through armour with your fist is quite
definitely a super power. Even assuming you could put enough power into
the hit to do that kind of damage to the target, how exactly do you stop
your fist from being turned into a bloody pulp on impact?

Similarly, Bullseye's targetting talent is far from 'natural'. He hits
what he aims at, even accounting for factors which a normal human isn't
even /capable/ of perceiving, with whatever object he has to hand.
Balance and aerodynamics don't matter a damn, so long as he can see the
target and throw the object that far. The only thing he /can't/ do is
predict the future to tell which way the target is going to dodge.

Brainiac I mostly agree with... except when compared to 'normal' for
humans. His processing ability far exceeds anything an unenhanced human
could do. When looked at as a representative of the 'mobile computer
AI' species however, he may be /exceptional/, but is not unnaturally so.

So just because a power doesn't /look/ spectactular, that doesn't mean
it's not a super power. And even if it /does/ look spectacular, that
doesn't mean it /is/ either :>

--
Corey Murtagh
The Electric Monk
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!"
 
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Corey Murtagh wrote:

> Sorcier wrote:
>
>> David Meadows wrote:
>>
>>> It is "The Legion of Superheroes" in English. And by the internal
>>> logic of
>>> that comic, Val Armorr (Karate Kid) *must* have superpowers as the
>>> Legion
>>> constitution states that members MUST have a unique super power. His
>>> "super
>>> karate" is therefore, by definition, supernatural.
>>
>> I'd phrase it more as "beyond normal human levels".
>> I always felt Val's martial skill was given a hand wave as
>> being "practically a super power" so they could let him in.rain".
>
> The ability to punch a hole through armour with your fist is quite
> definitely a super power.

I know, but the in the comic book reality of the Legion of
Superheroes, Val can do this because he's that _skilled_. He's
highly adept at finding weak points and applying force very
precisely. In context of the story, he _is_ just human with
no superpowers.
Similar in that regard to Remo Williams in the Destroyed novels. (IIRC.)

> Similarly, Bullseye's targetting talent is far from 'natural'. He hits
> what he aims at, even accounting for factors which a normal human isn't
> even /capable/ of perceiving, with whatever object he has to hand.
> Balance and aerodynamics don't matter a damn, so long as he can see the
> target and throw the object that far. The only thing he /can't/ do is
> predict the future to tell which way the target is going to dodge.

He's still just a human with no superpwoers in the context of
the stories he appears in. I also throw in Deadshot as another
example.

(Side note: Bullseye can't predict which way a target will dodge, but
he does seem damn good at reacting to their motion, or telling by
stance and posture which way they will most likely jump. Folks
like Daredevil or Spidey are just too good at dodging in
unpredictable directions.)

> Brainiac I mostly agree with... except when compared to 'normal' for
> humans. His processing ability far exceeds anything an unenhanced human
> could do. When looked at as a representative of the 'mobile computer
> AI' species however, he may be /exceptional/, but is not unnaturally so.

My point on him is that he's not "superpowered".
At least no more than we'd say an elephant is superpowered because it
is so much stronger than human, or that a fish is because it can
breathe underwater.

> So just because a power doesn't /look/ spectactular, that doesn't mean
> it's not a super power.

I'd say that's up to the context of the story.
Now when you stat it for a game, it may be a different story.
You may have to turn to the "powers" section to represent it.
For example some games just don't allow strengths higher than
the believably human unless you buy something like "Super Strength".
More esoteric "non-powers" are even more likely to require referencing
a games "Super Powers" list and rules.

> And even if it /does/ look spectacular, that
> doesn't mean it /is/ either :>

True.
But that echoes the context thing.
In Legion, Val does things that _look_ spectacular, but are
_not_ superhuman.

That they are beyond what is possible in our reality doesn't
change that.

It does mean that we would rightly label them superhuman with
respect to our reality, but I'm extremely hesitant to demand that
the same real world standards define fictional humans.
 
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Sorcier wrote:

>
> Similar in that regard to Remo Williams in the Destroyed novels. (IIRC.)

Gak! That should be "Destroyer".
Grumble, grumble, typo....
 
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On Mon, 10 May 2004 03:07:31 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net>
wrote:

>My point on him is that he's not "superpowered".
>At least no more than we'd say an elephant is superpowered because it
>is so much stronger than human, or that a fish is because it can
>breathe underwater.

Actually, there are any number of comic characters characterized that
way who do so because of racial abilities. Superman is an arguable
case since his abilities are a combination of intrinsic alien biology
interacting with environment, but by that standard about half the
Legionnaires aren't "superpowered."

>That they are beyond what is possible in our reality doesn't
>change that.
>
>It does mean that we would rightly label them superhuman with
>respect to our reality, but I'm extremely hesitant to demand that
>the same real world standards define fictional humans.

I think in terms of talking about them in a game to refer to such
things other than as superpowers does nothing but confuse the issue.
 
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> If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural
> powers, and others want to make heroes without such powers,
> which character creation system works best to maximize fun and
> minimize frustration?

I ran a pretty successful campaign using some Palladium games, Heroes
Unlimited + Ninjas & Superspies. IIRC there was a large range of abilities
from super-human to normal human.

> Secondary question: Which superhero character creation system
> offers the widest selection of cool, non-supernatural abilities?
> The normals will need something to spend their points on, after
> all...

I'd say maybe Mutants & Masterminds, IME.

Ad.
 
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"Sorcier" <sNoErMcOier@cavtel.net> wrote in message
news:EUFnc.108$OM5.51962@news.uswest.net...
> Corey Murtagh wrote:
>
> > Brainiac I mostly agree with... except when compared to 'normal' for
> > humans. His processing ability far exceeds anything an unenhanced human
> > could do. When looked at as a representative of the 'mobile computer
> > AI' species however, he may be /exceptional/, but is not unnaturally so.
>
> My point on him is that he's not "superpowered".
> At least no more than we'd say an elephant is superpowered because it
> is so much stronger than human, or that a fish is because it can
> breathe underwater.

But that puts you on shaky ground in the Legion universe. Several
Legionnaires are superpowered by human standards but not by the standards of
their own race. For example, the telepathic Saturn Girl is considered
superpowered even though her abilities are baseline for her race (all
Titanians possess telepathy).

Therefore, I would assume an elephant could join the Legion by virtue of its
superhuman strength, even if it is no stronger than elephant's normally are.
It *would* be considered superpowered by the Legion's rules.

(Getting way off topic here, but what the heck -- it's usenet ;-) )


--
David Meadows
Heroes: www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts/
A comic book -- without the pictures
 
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David Meadows wrote:

>
> Therefore, I would assume an elephant could join the Legion by virtue of its
> superhuman strength, even if it is no stronger than elephant's normally are.
> It *would* be considered superpowered by the Legion's rules.

The elephant would not be admitted based on its strength.
The Legion already has superstrength covered, so he'd need to
apply citing a power that is not yet represented in the membership.
Prenhensile nose might qualify, although Chameleon Lad can do
that one...
 
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Peter Knutsen wrote:

> If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural powers, and
> others want to make heroes without such powers, which character creation
> system works best to maximize fun and minimize frustration?

To give the discussion another twist, I have to throw in 'Ars Magica'.

Player characters are either:
- Mages (=Supers, there is the famous example of a starting character
able to raise a volcano every other day!)

- Companions (=Enhanced Normals [sidekicks, maybe], who some
experience and/or some supernatural abilities. Examples from our group
were a master archer, a knight, a dumb wolf-child lycantroph and a
travelled merchant...) or

- Grogs (=Normals, determined by just a few stats, craftsmen, farmers,
servants, guards/militia/hunter (changing by season) and in our group
the wife and the infant of a mage)


The setting just does not try to make the characters equally strong.
The mages have their weaknesses (the most important one is making folk
uneasy, which can result in pitchfork-mobs), but they are the powerhouses.

In our five-person group we had five mages, five companions and 40
grogs (twenty of them didn't even get names during the campaigne), and
a rotating GM. At the beginning of an episode, each of us would choose
a character to play for that 'mission' (in accord with the GM and the
nature of the mission). I (granted, a powergamer) have never had so
little trouble playing low-power characters next to high-power characters.

I can imagine using this 'Troupe-style' in a modern super campaigne.

Nice dice,
Nils.

--
SPOON!
 
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"Nils Richter" <anarion@uni-muenster.de> wrote in message
news:2g9vu5FdkosU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
> > If some of the players want to make heroes with supernatural powers, and
> > others want to make heroes without such powers, which character creation
> > system works best to maximize fun and minimize frustration?
>
> To give the discussion another twist, I have to throw in 'Ars Magica'.
>
> Player characters are either:
> - Mages (=Supers, there is the famous example of a starting character
> able to raise a volcano every other day!)
>
> - Companions (=Enhanced Normals [sidekicks, maybe], who some
> experience and/or some supernatural abilities. Examples from our group
> were a master archer, a knight, a dumb wolf-child lycantroph and a
> travelled merchant...) or
>
> - Grogs (=Normals, determined by just a few stats, craftsmen, farmers,
> servants, guards/militia/hunter (changing by season) and in our group
> the wife and the infant of a mage)
>
>
> The setting just does not try to make the characters equally strong.
> The mages have their weaknesses (the most important one is making folk
> uneasy, which can result in pitchfork-mobs), but they are the powerhouses.
>
> In our five-person group we had five mages, five companions and 40
> grogs (twenty of them didn't even get names during the campaigne), and
> a rotating GM. At the beginning of an episode, each of us would choose
> a character to play for that 'mission' (in accord with the GM and the
> nature of the mission). I (granted, a powergamer) have never had so
> little trouble playing low-power characters next to high-power characters.
>
> I can imagine using this 'Troupe-style' in a modern super campaigne.
>
Thanks. Wow, I might actually run this if I can find my AM...
 
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Nils Richter wrote:

>
> I can imagine using this 'Troupe-style' in a modern super campaigne.

I've tried to.
I set up a camapign with the premise of each player having
one powerhouse, one trainee, and one agent.
Different adventures would involve different mixes of characters.
Problem was, everyone statted out their powerhouse but not the rest,
and I got stuck running a high level camapign.
I had intended for the powerhouses to be the _least_ ran characters.
Players also balked at the idea of running multiple characters each
in some missions.

What sometimes worked:
We did a few Champions campaigns where everyone got one high
point characters or two lower point ones.
Many players didn't want to run multiple characters, so ran one
high point one.
Many wanted raw power so went for high level.
But a few of us went for the two lower power option, and often set
up synchronicities between out characters.
Downsides were occassionally feeling outmatched, and having other
players whine that we were getting all the screen time.
(I, for one, often had an infiltration/detective/information gather
type character and would get a lot of side missions that the "GODS
AMONG MEN!!!" couldn't really handle.)
 
G

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Mon, 10 May 2004 18:52:34, "David Meadows" wrote:
>But that puts you on shaky ground in the Legion universe. Several
>Legionnaires are superpowered by human standards but not by the standards of
>their own race. For example, the telepathic Saturn Girl is considered
>superpowered even though her abilities are baseline for her race (all
>Titanians possess telepathy).

I thought she was supposed to be really good at telepathy for a Titanian.
Now Duo Damsel, whose power is that she can turn into two people (unlike
everyone else on her planet who can turn into three), she would actually
be disabled on her homeworld, but has superpowers on Earth.

>Therefore, I would assume an elephant could join the Legion by virtue of its
>superhuman strength, even if it is no stronger than elephant's normally are.
>It *would* be considered superpowered by the Legion's rules.

Might be a problem with the whole unable to talk thing.



--
chuk