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Real life stats

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Anonymous
May 23, 2004 3:47:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
it might be good to start now rather than wait.

I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
I'd just rather be a player than a GM.

1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help

2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
matter?

3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.

Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.

Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
me an alternate method for strength tests.

Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.

And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.

Any help would be appreciated.

OT: This is something that popped into my head while writing thi, but
has anyone wondered what Gary Hobson's stats might be? He always
intrigued me as a character. What would the point value of that
newspaper be in "GURPS" terms? Sure, you could just treat as some
piece of magical equipment, but it did have a mind of it's own and
seemed to always have a larger plan going. And off the top of my head
I remember that at least once it "suggested" a course of action for
Gary to take by actively changing one of it's headlines _before_ he
actually made any change. Of course, that particular time might have
fallen under special circumstances. And then there's that cat of
course.

More about : real life stats

Anonymous
May 23, 2004 7:05:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

harmier@yahoo.com (Jarrod Harmier) wrote in message news:<5b424975.0405222247.3f66c6fb@posting.google.com>...
> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>
>
> 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
> the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
> Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
> pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
> the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
> little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
> how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
> character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
> with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.

A character with ST 11 (compared to ST 10) can carry 10% more at each
encumbrance level. He can jump a little higher and farther. He can
throw things a little farther. He does a little bit more damage.

> Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
> numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
> the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.

See p.21 for encumbrance, p.20 for damage, and p.23 for lifting,
moving and trowing things.

> Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
> like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
> like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.

Unlike ST, there are not really any real-world comparisons for the
other attributes.

For "average" people, 9-11 would be normal, 12-13 would be very good
and 14+ would be remarkable. I've created a lot of 25 point
characters; most have attributes in the 9-12 range, usually with only
30-40 points spent on the attributes (this includes taking an
occasional attribute below 10).

Figure a skill level of 10 to be a good amateur, 12 to be minimal
professional level and a 15 to be an expert (some skills, like
Physician, have a higher standard).

You may want to also consider FUDGE (it's free!), although it would
take a bit of work from the GM to set up.

Brandon
Anonymous
May 23, 2004 8:04:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Jarrod Harmier wrote:
>
> OT: This is something that popped into my head while writing thi, but
> has anyone wondered what Gary Hobson's stats might be? He always
> intrigued me as a character. What would the point value of that
> newspaper be in "GURPS" terms?

It's a plot device.
Don't bother statting it.
But if you must look carefully at any precognition type powers in
your system of choice.

> Sure, you could just treat as some
> piece of magical equipment, but it did have a mind of it's own and
> seemed to always have a larger plan going.

There does seem to be an intelligence behind it at times.
I don't know that the paper _itself_ is the intelligence though...
Related resources
Anonymous
May 23, 2004 8:52:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

A good GURPS sorce for this concept can be found in the characters chapter
of GURPS Riverworld. It contains rules on how to build yourself and other
real world people in GURPS terms. The downside is that these rules have been
out of print for some time (my copy is falling apart and I have yet to find
a replacement). But they include step by step rules on how to guestimate
what you would be as a character.

Sjard

"Jarrod Harmier" <harmier@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5b424975.0405222247.3f66c6fb@posting.google.com...
> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>
> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
>
> 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
> much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
> gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
> anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
>
> 2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
> he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
> they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
> I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
> higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
> power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
> any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
> matter?
>
> 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
> the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
> Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
> pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
> the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
> little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
> how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
> character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
> with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.
>
> Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
> numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
> the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.
>
> Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
> bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
> poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
> strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
> it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
> me an alternate method for strength tests.
>
> Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
> like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
> like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.
>
> And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
> everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
> During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
> that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
> actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> OT: This is something that popped into my head while writing thi, but
> has anyone wondered what Gary Hobson's stats might be? He always
> intrigued me as a character. What would the point value of that
> newspaper be in "GURPS" terms? Sure, you could just treat as some
> piece of magical equipment, but it did have a mind of it's own and
> seemed to always have a larger plan going. And off the top of my head
> I remember that at least once it "suggested" a course of action for
> Gary to take by actively changing one of it's headlines _before_ he
> actually made any change. Of course, that particular time might have
> fallen under special circumstances. And then there's that cat of
> course.
Anonymous
May 23, 2004 1:13:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Jarrod Harmier" <harmier@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5b424975.0405222247.3f66c6fb@posting.google.com...
> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> it might be good to start now rather than wait.

You don't need an alternate roleplaying system. Point Buy works very
well for this sort of thing. Back under 2E we had a very fun but limited
duration campaign where we played ourselves. At the time we just
"guestimated" our own stats, the DM awarded himself a little leeway to
adjust our initial estimates up or down, and then we were given a few points
to readjust stats to make ourselves "playable" as characters. 3E handles
this much better by simply using a point buy system of generating your
characteristics.
Question is, do you want these characters to be "playable" and only
superficially look like yourselves, or do you want them to be very realistic
representations of your weak, modern selves in a heroic fantasy sort of
environment? Or is it even fantasy that you have in mind? Maybe d20
modern?

> And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
> everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?

A) have mature players. B) With point buy it won't matter HOW brilliant
they want to make themselves they'll end up sacrificing more from other
attributes than they want to. Just give everyone the same limits and let
them "design" their optimal selves. Will it really hurt the point of
running Players as PC's if they aren't scientifically verifiable and
accurate in their stats? It's still a game. Let them game.
Anonymous
May 23, 2004 3:53:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

sjard wrote:
> A good GURPS sorce for this concept can be found in the characters chapter
> of GURPS Riverworld. It contains rules on how to build yourself and other
> real world people in GURPS terms. The downside is that these rules have been
> out of print for some time (my copy is falling apart and I have yet to find
> a replacement). But they include step by step rules on how to guestimate
> what you would be as a character.
>
> Sjard

I've heard that GURPS Who's Who has those "rules" as well, though I
can't say whitch one of those books it is, or if they even include 'em
as those books I don't have.


--
Taneli
Anonymous
May 23, 2004 7:18:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Jarrod Harmier wrote:
> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>

Villains & Vigilantes encouraged this for characters, but had no "scientific"
method. Strength could be deduced, somewhat, by comparing a person's weight
and the amount of weight they could lift, but everything else was to be
arbitrated by the group as a whole. In a perfect world, this could provide
consistent results across the group.

Congressman
Anonymous
May 23, 2004 10:37:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Jarrod Harmier wrote:
> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>
> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
[...]

To do that properly, you'd need an RPG rules system where the
attribute values are what I call "demographicaly quantified",
meaning that the system specifies, e.g., that for any one
attribute, 75% of the population has a 3, 17% of the population
has a 4, one-in-3.5-million has an 8, and so forth.

The only system I know of that does this is my homebrew system,
and it isn't finished yet, I'm still working on it (making a
complete system is a lot of work).

The reason for the usefulness of such well-defined stat
distributions is that you can look at a character, and try to
gauge where he is relative to the normal population. "OK, he's
clearly above average, *way* above average. But it is most
reasonable to define him as 1-in-50 or 1-in-700...?"

GURPS tries to do the same, with the attribute tables in
Compendium I (those in GURPS Basic 3rd Edition are *broken*,
don't use them), but fails because it uses vague terms ("highest
in city", "highest in nation") instead of hard numbers.


But another thing is, why do you *need* accuracy in converting
the player's attribute values into game terms? The main purpose
served by attributes is skill development, and if you're going
to run a short campaign there won't be any character advancement.

This means that the most important thing is the *skills* of the
characters. And here there are several RPG systems that you can
use, because many try (to some extent, although I'd say they
should all try a bit harder) to link certain skill levels to
real-world benchmarks, like "Bachelor's Degree = skill 13", or
"A skill of 10 is good enough to get you a job and let you hold
on to it", " a skill of 15 is equavalent of 1st Dan Black Belt",
"A character can be said to have acquired (/performed) Kung Fu
upon reaching a skill level of 8"...

Back to attributes, it might be a good idea to use a system with
coarsegrained attributes. My own homebrew uses a scale where 3
is the Human average and 8 is the Human maximum (I impose no
actual minimum, but low values quickly become crippling). Many
other systems use a scale that is similarly coarsegrained, for
instance CORPS has an attribute range from 1 to 10, and EABA's
scale has only a few steps more. FUDGE has a range from 1 to 7,
but sadly 4 is the average, meaning that there's a slight lack
of resolution for above-average values.

The less finely divided the attribute scale is, the less
problems players will have with "pegging their character
concepts down". In a system with high-resolution on the
attribute scale, a player might worry endlessly about giving the
thief he is creating a Perception of 16, 17 or 18. With a more
coarsegrained scale, it's quicker ("he's quite a bit above
average, but not extreme, so that's Perception 5, as 4 is
clearly too low and 6 is clearly too high. Done!"). The same
goes, and probably to a greater extent, for attempts to try to
re-create real individuals, like one-self or fellow players.

And the same goes for skills. If the skill scale is too
fine-grained, players might worry (or debate) for a long time
about what the values should be. Two players might both be
recent college graduates with the same major, but one player is
clearly smarter than the other, and might argue that since he's
more intelligent he got more out of the 4 years in college, so
his Major skill should be 1 point higher than the other player's
Major skill. You minimize this by using a coarsegrained skill scale.

A scale of 1-25 is the finest that would not cause me actual
pain, I think. GURPS and 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons uses
such scales, and Chivalry & Sorcery. Rolemaster is an example of
a system which uses a very fine-grained scale, going from 1-100.
I tend to think of such scales as "fake complexity" - the
designer utilizes a fine-grained scale so as to make the system
look realistic. (In their defence, it can be said that
fine-grained scales make for smoother character advancement -
but for attributes that is only true if you believe in attribute
improvement, and I don't).

Of course it's possible to get too extreme. I think I've got
things right with the attribute scale in my homebrew system,
having 5 "steps" of above-average values, the 5th being the
maximum possible. Systems with only 2 or 3 steps above average
are confining, although if everyibe in your gaming group is
ordinary, and you will be using only ordinary NPCs, nobody will
notice. I'd get a sense of contra-realism, a sort of
otherworldliness, from such a world, though, completely lacking
in extraordinary individuals.

Also for skills there has to be some differences. If the average
skill of a senior University professor is only one point higher
than the average skill of a fresh college graduate, then
something is very wrong.


I think, in general, it's much more fun to go for detail and
complexity in the number of stats - using a low-rez scale, but
measuring lots of things, so to speak. Many would say that
Rolemaster does both, having 10 attributes. To that, I can only
point out that my homebrew system has a dozen attributes and
several dozen sub-attributes. I want to be able to precisely
define the abilities of individuals, and it lets me do exactly that.

The same goes for skills. A larger number of skills lets you
define precisely what your character can do, and this is not
lost if a coarsegrained skill level scale is used.


If you want to use GURPS, it's possible to convert ST values to
lifting ability. If there is no explanation of how encumbrance
works, in GURPS Lite (and I think there should be), then you can
get it from friendly posters in rec.games.frp.gurps .

If you want to start your campaign right away, go purchase
"GURPS Basic 3rd Edition Revised" and "GURPS Compendium I" (not
Compendium II - that one is a lot less necessary). Be wary of
the many added skills in Compendium I, some of them are too
broad even for my tastes (Starglazing, Uttering of Base Coin, to
give two examples). Even GURPS Basic divides biology/medicine
too finely (Steve Jackson was a biology major, and it *shows*).

But a few months from now, IIRC in August, SJ Games will publish
GURPS 4th Edition, which in many ways will be an improvement
over 3rd edition (attributes cost more - which was a sorely
needed change - and the skill list will have been trimmed of the
most excessively narrow-scope skills). So you might want to wait.

I don't know if GURPS 4th Edition will contain the same attempt
at "demographic quantification" of attribute values as there is
in Compendium I, but if not then I will pester the designer,
Sean Punch, to make them available, because I think it's needed,
in general.

Same for skills. I want GURPS 4E to tell me what skill level a
fresh college graduate has in his major, and what skill level
the average Nobel prize winner has. If the book won't tell me,
I'll try to get an answer out of the designer.

3E does give some guidelines for skill values, and you can ask
around in rec.games.frp.gurps to get more advice from
experienced users of that system.

--
Peter Knutsen
Anonymous
May 24, 2004 12:05:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Jarrod Harmier wrote:

> 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
> much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
> gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
> anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help

Strength is based on how much weight you can lift at full extension of your
arm to one side for five seconds. For those without a weight set handy,
the equivalent in quarts of water is listed as well.

Constitution is determined by how often the player gets sick. This gives a
range; exact point in the range is random.

Intelligence is determined by one of:

IQ divided by 9
percentile score on a standardized intelligence test, checked on a table
SAT score, checked on a table
4-point scale GPA in college or high school, multiplied by 4.5

Dexterity, starts at 10, modified by various things you can do. Yes,
this does include juggling and other skills, but I personally don't have a
problem with that, since practicing such does seem to help overall
dexterity.

Willpower, Bravado, Appearance, and Perception are decided in similar
fashion to Dexterity.

Stamina is determined by a simple body-fat test, plus how much exercise you
get per week on average, plus a modifier for high Strength, and a few
adjustments for smoking.

Body Points and Bruise Points are determined by weight.

It seems... reasonable. Note that boiling things like dexterity and
willpower down to a single number is fraught with problems anyways; there's
distinctions like manual dexterity vs. body agility vs. sense of balance
vs. reaction speed, or one's ability to resist other's suggestions vs.
one's ability to fight off your own bad habits.

--
ZZzz |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Anonymous
May 24, 2004 5:35:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

>Jarrod Harmier wrote:
>> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
>> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
>> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
>> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
>> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
>> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>>
>> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
>> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
>> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
>> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
>> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
>> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
>> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.

I'd say Champions - Hero System. You can figure out Strength easily
enough with the lifting/throwing chart. Skills are easily defined,
including familiarities as opposed to highly skilled and such. Even
powers can be purchased fairly... if you have one friend who may have
excessive luck, the ability to dream of future events (as I have on
rare occasions) or other minor abilities.

-----
"There'll be someone else sitting here for Comedy Central.
And that person... or woman... will have to face the fact
that this is the network built on... South Park."
- Craig Kilborn, The Daily Show
Anonymous
May 24, 2004 5:35:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

First of all, Pastor of Muppets - thats a dangerous road to go down. I'd
stick to regular stuff, or you'll have the nuts comming out claiming weird
powers like exceptional luck and seeing the future, or being favored by
their god, or being able to control the minds of others, things of that
nature. If you let in one silly idea, why stop there? Oh, I know... just
let them all use any super powers they want and then just throw out the
powers. They will have wasted points on their delusions. Heh, and dont let
them know they are fake, they will RP the delusion that much more
realisticly *grins*. You get into a fight and one of them tries to make the
guys gun jam with his "mechanical fall apart aura", standing there focusing
as he gets shot! *chuckles*



As for systems to use as requested in original post, I would use GURPS. Use
the charts for ST to determine ST, and just guesstimate the others based on
the ST numbers. If you get a ST14, and are equally more dexterous than most
people as you are more strong than most people, then use the same score for
DX. If you are as below average IQ as someone with ST8 is below average
strong, then use IQ8. All the stats are on the same scale, so, IMO you
really only need 1 comparison to real life.

Whatever system you use, it should NOT be a level based system like d20,
those are very far from reality (at least the HP part of them is
horrendous). Killing goblins does not make you twice as able to sustain a
fall. It wouldnt take 10 explosions that would kill any normal man to kill
a man that has been in lots of fights. And people dont mysteriously get new
feats after a certain number of kills, they acquire them slowly over time.
But I'll stop now or I'll go on forever as to why I hate the d20 system.

My second choice, as much as I hate to agree with a Nut like PoM, I'll have
to agree Hero is a fine system as well. Just dont let them use super
powers, unless you too are a nut.


"Pastor of Muppets" <powerslave11@SPAMSUXcomcast.net> wrote in message news:
5923b0tmp15voah01jhvc26t5l0g01okvb@4ax.com...
> >Jarrod Harmier wrote:
> >> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> >> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> >> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> >> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> >> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> >> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
> >>
> >> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
> >> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
> >> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
> >> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
> >> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
> >> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
> >> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
>
> I'd say Champions - Hero System. You can figure out Strength easily
> enough with the lifting/throwing chart. Skills are easily defined,
> including familiarities as opposed to highly skilled and such. Even
> powers can be purchased fairly... if you have one friend who may have
> excessive luck, the ability to dream of future events (as I have on
> rare occasions) or other minor abilities.
>
> -----
> "There'll be someone else sitting here for Comedy Central.
> And that person... or woman... will have to face the fact
> that this is the network built on... South Park."
> - Craig Kilborn, The Daily Show
Anonymous
May 24, 2004 2:03:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

In article <Cg0sc.132$t34.74@read3.inet.fi>,
Taneli Pirinen <taneli.pirinenremovethis@removethishelsinki.fi.invalid> wrote:

> I've heard that GURPS Who's Who has those "rules" as well, though I
> can't say whitch one of those books it is, or if they even include 'em
> as those books I don't have.

Appendix B in the back of the first book has a three page section called "Game
Mechanics & the Great" which gives some detail in how to roll up an historical
figure.

In the second book, Chapter One "Conversion process" is a two page section
reviewing the selection criteria from the first book as well as the Game
Mechanics.

These are really guidelines rather than detailed rules.
Anonymous
May 24, 2004 2:23:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On 22 May 2004 23:47:01 -0700, harmier@yahoo.com (Jarrod Harmier)
wrote:

[..]
>I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
>plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
[...]
>Any help would be appreciated.

I tried it with myself.
I made a "best case" and "worst case" of myself, taking in the first
case minimum guesstimated stats, skill levels, etc. and in the second
case the highest I could hope.

Worst-case was a 3-points character; best-case was 88 points.

So, I think my range of guessing, while going at maximum 1 or 2 points
up or down from a guessed mean, generates a WIDE point range.

So, you can do it by telling your players (if willing to try): "build
yourself with 25/50/75 points and have fun."!

Korin Duval
Anonymous
May 25, 2004 1:53:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Jarrod Harmier wrote:
> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>
> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
>
> 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
> much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
> gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
> anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
>
> 2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
> he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
> they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
> I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
> higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
> power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
> any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
> matter?
>
> 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
> the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
> Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
> pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
> the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
> little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
> how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
> character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
> with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.
>
> Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
> numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
> the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.
>
> Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
> bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
> poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
> strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
> it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
> me an alternate method for strength tests.
>
> Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
> like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
> like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.
>
> And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
> everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
> During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
> that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
> actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.

Google prior discussions on "playing yourself".

My basic advice: be generous. Err on the side of the players. Unless
you have James Bond in your group, they'll need help.

Secondary: decide on what scale (A) you're playing, and (B) your
stats are being rated. If it's going to be a heroic-scale campaign,
make sure there's some way for your players to scale up to the
campaign level.

If you're going on a bell curve, remember that things like D&D and
GURPS' scale are either too crude or too limited to model people
easily. If you go strictly by the probability of rolling certain stats
in D&D, then many gamers are going to hit the 18 INT level fairly
easily, as that's just 1 out of 216 people, and THAT is assuming a
"roll 3d6, take what you get, no rerolls" method, rather than the far
more generous (and curve skewing) methods commonly used. If you want
to be accurate, you'll want to figure out the SD on your scale.

Tests for things like STR are fairly easy to figure out, though
again you may want to scale it for your audience; after all, if all
your players turn out to be bodybuilders you don't necessarily want
them all to have the same stat. INT and WIS are harder to do, and CHA
is often a point of debate.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Anonymous
May 25, 2004 1:57:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Sea Wasp wrote:
>
> Jarrod Harmier wrote:
> > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
> > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
> > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
> > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
> > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
> >
> > I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
> > plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
> > only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
> > the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
> > shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
> > particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
> > I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
> >
> > 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
> > much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
> > gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
> > anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
> >
> > 2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
> > he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
> > they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
> > I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
> > higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
> > power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
> > any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
> > matter?
> >
> > 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
> > the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
> > Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
> > pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
> > the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
> > little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
> > how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
> > character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
> > with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.
> >
> > Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
> > numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
> > the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.
> >
> > Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
> > bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
> > poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
> > strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
> > it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
> > me an alternate method for strength tests.
> >
> > Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
> > like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
> > like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.
> >
> > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
> > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
> > During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
> > that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
> > actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Google prior discussions on "playing yourself".
>
> My basic advice: be generous. Err on the side of the players. Unless
> you have James Bond in your group, they'll need help.
>
> Secondary: decide on what scale (A) you're playing, and (B) your
> stats are being rated. If it's going to be a heroic-scale campaign,
> make sure there's some way for your players to scale up to the
> campaign level.
>
> If you're going on a bell curve, remember that things like D&D and
> GURPS' scale are either too crude or too limited to model people
> easily. If you go strictly by the probability of rolling certain stats
> in D&D, then many gamers are going to hit the 18 INT level fairly
> easily, as that's just 1 out of 216 people, and THAT is assuming a
> "roll 3d6, take what you get, no rerolls" method, rather than the far
> more generous (and curve skewing) methods commonly used. If you want
> to be accurate, you'll want to figure out the SD on your scale.
>
> Tests for things like STR are fairly easy to figure out, though
> again you may want to scale it for your audience; after all, if all
> your players turn out to be bodybuilders you don't necessarily want
> them all to have the same stat. INT and WIS are harder to do, and CHA
> is often a point of debate.

I think Cha is less a point of debate and less of a danger area for hurt
feelings than Int.

When determining our characters' Int scores for an old V&V game, I
suggested that we just give everyone a 14 because "we were all about the
same intelligence anyway". It was adopted by the DM, I suspect, for much
the same reason I had suggested it -- just to avoid hurting anyone's
feelings.

Well, that and the fact that is was also for the most part true. People
tend to gravitate towards those with similar intellectual capabilities.

And sexual market values. Yow.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
May 25, 2004 11:09:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
> much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
> gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
> anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
>
Well, there are three different versions, which have two different character
generation methods. The 1st end 2nd edition are what was described in an
earlier post, and this is for a 1d20 system (now out of print). The current
edition is for the open-supplement EABA system and the CORPS system. EABA is
a multiple d6 system, while CORPS is a highly compressed 1d10 system. Both
use a modified version of the old character generation rules, tweaked for
the new rule systems. I think EABA TimeLords would give you the best degree
of variation between characters. CORPS TimeLords would give you more
GURPS-like results, with a lot of players having the same stats.

They also have options for building characters from a point base, building
characters based on yourself and then adding points or altering them to take
an alternate character history into account (like "you", but during
Victorian times).

The CORPS and EABA versions are available as pdf downloads ($10), and the
EABA version is available as a nice print on demand version ($20).

Greg Porter (da designer)
BTRC
Anonymous
May 25, 2004 3:21:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

We did this once by having a "field day". I forget the specific
things we used, but we had a big list. We basically reversed
engineered GURPS skill tests that were based primarily on stats
directly. So for example Standing Broad Jump distance is a
direct function of strength as is the distance you can throw
a heavy object. The length you can hold your breath at rest is
a function of health. Speed for a 100 yd dash can get ya move/basic speed
which you can then use to solve for dex etc. A lil delving into
the basic book can yield a whole bunch of these basic "Field day tests"

The scary thing was how consistent that these were.
The strength one sticks out in my mind as VERY precise
like the estimate from a jump was really consistent with the
estimate from the thrown object.
I can just see the Guru's designing the game doing something similar.
Over mucho beer of course...

I'll delve when I get home and see if I can find the list of stuff...


--
Matthew T. Karafa || If the shoe fits, get another one just like it.
mkarafa@wideopenwest.com|| - George Carlin
May 25, 2004 4:54:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Mon, 24 May 2004 01:35:47 -0400, Pastor of Muppets
<powerslave11@SPAMSUXcomcast.net> raised a finger to the sky and
proclaimed:

>>Jarrod Harmier wrote:
>>> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
>>> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
>>> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
>>> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
>>> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
>>> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
>>>
>>> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
>>> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
>>> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
>>> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
>>> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
>>> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
>>> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
>
>I'd say Champions - Hero System. You can figure out Strength easily
>enough with the lifting/throwing chart. Skills are easily defined,
>including familiarities as opposed to highly skilled and such. Even
>powers can be purchased fairly... if you have one friend who may have
>excessive luck, the ability to dream of future events (as I have on
>rare occasions) or other minor abilities.
>

Seconded. Use Hero.

(BTW, Pastor - your sig delimiter is broken)

--
Either way, I hate you Count Chocula, if I didn't already.
- Drifter Bob, rec.games.frp.dnd
Anonymous
May 25, 2004 6:51:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Of course, no roleplaying system could ever hope to compete with that
pinnacle of roleplaying excellence, Macho Women With Guns.

--- Brian
Anonymous
May 25, 2004 10:13:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Sea Wasp" <seawasp@wizvax.net> wrote in message
news:40B26F04.60906@wizvax.net...
>
> If you're going on a bell curve, remember that things like D&D and
> GURPS' scale are either too crude or too limited to model people
> easily. If you go strictly by the probability of rolling certain stats
> in D&D, then many gamers are going to hit the 18 INT level fairly
> easily, as that's just 1 out of 216 people, and THAT is assuming a
> "roll 3d6, take what you get, no rerolls" method, rather than the far
> more generous (and curve skewing) methods commonly used. If you want
> to be accurate, you'll want to figure out the SD on your scale.
>

Well, many gamers THINK they are really smart, so giving them
an accurate assessment may be considered an insult.

Maybe give everyone a certain amount of points (depending on
system) and let them make themselves how they like; scaling so
everyone ends up at a suitable power level for whatever type
of campaign you'll be running.

Geoff.
May 28, 2004 1:29:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> Just give everyone the same limits and let
> them "design" their optimal selves. Will it really hurt the point of
> running Players as PC's if they aren't scientifically verifiable and
> accurate in their stats? It's still a game. Let them game.
>
Despite the fact that the OP is looking voraciously for a system for
verifiability, this is the best advice you could give. If for nothing else,
do it this way for the impossibility of measuring things like charisma /
wisdom (or whatever equivalent stats you'll find in other RPGs). But mainly
because it's more fun to make your "optimal self", more fun to have everyone
on the same footing (no characters way better than others), and more fun to
snicker at other players' choices ("Does he really think he has an 18
Charisma???") :-)

Spinner
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 9:05:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
> out the real life stats of the players...

Not a role playing system, but I have implemented a version of an AD&D
stat quiz as proposed by Dave Harper in rec.games.frp.dnd and later
implemented as a server side application by Bruce Blanchard (see my
post in rec.games.frp.dnd titled "AD&D Stats Quiz is Back" for more
details.

My version of the quiz is online at:
http://www.theHaws.org/add_quiz.shtml.

I would appreciate feedback anyone can offer via
http://www.theHaws.org/contact.shtml (please do not use the
EMAIL from this post - it's an old work account).

Thanks,

Kevin Haw
(STR 13, INT 15, WIS 15, DEX 8, CON 13, CHR 12... and glad he doesn't
fight trolls in real life)
Anonymous
June 5, 2004 5:43:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Duane VanderPol" <duanevp@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<OsydnTEk0d45UC3d4p2dnA@adelphia.com>...
>
> > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
> > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
>
> A) have mature players.

Very funny, smartass.
Anonymous
June 6, 2004 3:32:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

C. Woolard wrote:
> "Duane VanderPol" <duanevp@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<OsydnTEk0d45UC3d4p2dnA@adelphia.com>...
>
>>>And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
>>>everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
>>
>> A) have mature players.
>
>
> Very funny, smartass.

But true. If your players can't handle the truth...

Use whatever assessment of intelligence works for the group. Some
people use GRE scores. Others use various other methods.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
!