Real life stats

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
it might be good to start now rather than wait.

I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
I'd just rather be a player than a GM.

1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help

2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
matter?

3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.

Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.

Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
me an alternate method for strength tests.

Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.

And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.

Any help would be appreciated.

OT: This is something that popped into my head while writing thi, but
has anyone wondered what Gary Hobson's stats might be? He always
intrigued me as a character. What would the point value of that
newspaper be in "GURPS" terms? Sure, you could just treat as some
piece of magical equipment, but it did have a mind of it's own and
seemed to always have a larger plan going. And off the top of my head
I remember that at least once it "suggested" a course of action for
Gary to take by actively changing one of it's headlines _before_ he
actually made any change. Of course, that particular time might have
fallen under special circumstances. And then there's that cat of
course.
23 answers Last reply
More about real life stats
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    harmier@yahoo.com (Jarrod Harmier) wrote in message news:<5b424975.0405222247.3f66c6fb@posting.google.com>...
    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >
    >
    > 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
    > the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
    > Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
    > pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
    > the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
    > little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
    > how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
    > character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
    > with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.

    A character with ST 11 (compared to ST 10) can carry 10% more at each
    encumbrance level. He can jump a little higher and farther. He can
    throw things a little farther. He does a little bit more damage.

    > Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
    > numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
    > the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.

    See p.21 for encumbrance, p.20 for damage, and p.23 for lifting,
    moving and trowing things.

    > Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
    > like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
    > like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.

    Unlike ST, there are not really any real-world comparisons for the
    other attributes.

    For "average" people, 9-11 would be normal, 12-13 would be very good
    and 14+ would be remarkable. I've created a lot of 25 point
    characters; most have attributes in the 9-12 range, usually with only
    30-40 points spent on the attributes (this includes taking an
    occasional attribute below 10).

    Figure a skill level of 10 to be a good amateur, 12 to be minimal
    professional level and a 15 to be an expert (some skills, like
    Physician, have a higher standard).

    You may want to also consider FUDGE (it's free!), although it would
    take a bit of work from the GM to set up.

    Brandon
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    >
    > OT: This is something that popped into my head while writing thi, but
    > has anyone wondered what Gary Hobson's stats might be? He always
    > intrigued me as a character. What would the point value of that
    > newspaper be in "GURPS" terms?

    It's a plot device.
    Don't bother statting it.
    But if you must look carefully at any precognition type powers in
    your system of choice.

    > Sure, you could just treat as some
    > piece of magical equipment, but it did have a mind of it's own and
    > seemed to always have a larger plan going.

    There does seem to be an intelligence behind it at times.
    I don't know that the paper _itself_ is the intelligence though...
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    A good GURPS sorce for this concept can be found in the characters chapter
    of GURPS Riverworld. It contains rules on how to build yourself and other
    real world people in GURPS terms. The downside is that these rules have been
    out of print for some time (my copy is falling apart and I have yet to find
    a replacement). But they include step by step rules on how to guestimate
    what you would be as a character.

    Sjard

    "Jarrod Harmier" <harmier@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:5b424975.0405222247.3f66c6fb@posting.google.com...
    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >
    > I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    > plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    > only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    > the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    > shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    > particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    > I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
    >
    > 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
    > much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
    > gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
    > anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
    >
    > 2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
    > he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
    > they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
    > I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
    > higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
    > power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
    > any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
    > matter?
    >
    > 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
    > the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
    > Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
    > pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
    > the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
    > little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
    > how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
    > character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
    > with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.
    >
    > Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
    > numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
    > the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.
    >
    > Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
    > bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
    > poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
    > strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
    > it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
    > me an alternate method for strength tests.
    >
    > Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
    > like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
    > like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.
    >
    > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
    > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
    > During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
    > that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
    > actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.
    >
    > Any help would be appreciated.
    >
    > OT: This is something that popped into my head while writing thi, but
    > has anyone wondered what Gary Hobson's stats might be? He always
    > intrigued me as a character. What would the point value of that
    > newspaper be in "GURPS" terms? Sure, you could just treat as some
    > piece of magical equipment, but it did have a mind of it's own and
    > seemed to always have a larger plan going. And off the top of my head
    > I remember that at least once it "suggested" a course of action for
    > Gary to take by actively changing one of it's headlines _before_ he
    > actually made any change. Of course, that particular time might have
    > fallen under special circumstances. And then there's that cat of
    > course.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    "Jarrod Harmier" <harmier@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:5b424975.0405222247.3f66c6fb@posting.google.com...
    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > it might be good to start now rather than wait.

    You don't need an alternate roleplaying system. Point Buy works very
    well for this sort of thing. Back under 2E we had a very fun but limited
    duration campaign where we played ourselves. At the time we just
    "guestimated" our own stats, the DM awarded himself a little leeway to
    adjust our initial estimates up or down, and then we were given a few points
    to readjust stats to make ourselves "playable" as characters. 3E handles
    this much better by simply using a point buy system of generating your
    characteristics.
    Question is, do you want these characters to be "playable" and only
    superficially look like yourselves, or do you want them to be very realistic
    representations of your weak, modern selves in a heroic fantasy sort of
    environment? Or is it even fantasy that you have in mind? Maybe d20
    modern?

    > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
    > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?

    A) have mature players. B) With point buy it won't matter HOW brilliant
    they want to make themselves they'll end up sacrificing more from other
    attributes than they want to. Just give everyone the same limits and let
    them "design" their optimal selves. Will it really hurt the point of
    running Players as PC's if they aren't scientifically verifiable and
    accurate in their stats? It's still a game. Let them game.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    sjard wrote:
    > A good GURPS sorce for this concept can be found in the characters chapter
    > of GURPS Riverworld. It contains rules on how to build yourself and other
    > real world people in GURPS terms. The downside is that these rules have been
    > out of print for some time (my copy is falling apart and I have yet to find
    > a replacement). But they include step by step rules on how to guestimate
    > what you would be as a character.
    >
    > Sjard

    I've heard that GURPS Who's Who has those "rules" as well, though I
    can't say whitch one of those books it is, or if they even include 'em
    as those books I don't have.


    --
    Taneli
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >

    Villains & Vigilantes encouraged this for characters, but had no "scientific"
    method. Strength could be deduced, somewhat, by comparing a person's weight
    and the amount of weight they could lift, but everything else was to be
    arbitrated by the group as a whole. In a perfect world, this could provide
    consistent results across the group.

    Congressman
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >
    > I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    > plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    > only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    > the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    > shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    > particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    > I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
    [...]

    To do that properly, you'd need an RPG rules system where the
    attribute values are what I call "demographicaly quantified",
    meaning that the system specifies, e.g., that for any one
    attribute, 75% of the population has a 3, 17% of the population
    has a 4, one-in-3.5-million has an 8, and so forth.

    The only system I know of that does this is my homebrew system,
    and it isn't finished yet, I'm still working on it (making a
    complete system is a lot of work).

    The reason for the usefulness of such well-defined stat
    distributions is that you can look at a character, and try to
    gauge where he is relative to the normal population. "OK, he's
    clearly above average, *way* above average. But it is most
    reasonable to define him as 1-in-50 or 1-in-700...?"

    GURPS tries to do the same, with the attribute tables in
    Compendium I (those in GURPS Basic 3rd Edition are *broken*,
    don't use them), but fails because it uses vague terms ("highest
    in city", "highest in nation") instead of hard numbers.


    But another thing is, why do you *need* accuracy in converting
    the player's attribute values into game terms? The main purpose
    served by attributes is skill development, and if you're going
    to run a short campaign there won't be any character advancement.

    This means that the most important thing is the *skills* of the
    characters. And here there are several RPG systems that you can
    use, because many try (to some extent, although I'd say they
    should all try a bit harder) to link certain skill levels to
    real-world benchmarks, like "Bachelor's Degree = skill 13", or
    "A skill of 10 is good enough to get you a job and let you hold
    on to it", " a skill of 15 is equavalent of 1st Dan Black Belt",
    "A character can be said to have acquired (/performed) Kung Fu
    upon reaching a skill level of 8"...

    Back to attributes, it might be a good idea to use a system with
    coarsegrained attributes. My own homebrew uses a scale where 3
    is the Human average and 8 is the Human maximum (I impose no
    actual minimum, but low values quickly become crippling). Many
    other systems use a scale that is similarly coarsegrained, for
    instance CORPS has an attribute range from 1 to 10, and EABA's
    scale has only a few steps more. FUDGE has a range from 1 to 7,
    but sadly 4 is the average, meaning that there's a slight lack
    of resolution for above-average values.

    The less finely divided the attribute scale is, the less
    problems players will have with "pegging their character
    concepts down". In a system with high-resolution on the
    attribute scale, a player might worry endlessly about giving the
    thief he is creating a Perception of 16, 17 or 18. With a more
    coarsegrained scale, it's quicker ("he's quite a bit above
    average, but not extreme, so that's Perception 5, as 4 is
    clearly too low and 6 is clearly too high. Done!"). The same
    goes, and probably to a greater extent, for attempts to try to
    re-create real individuals, like one-self or fellow players.

    And the same goes for skills. If the skill scale is too
    fine-grained, players might worry (or debate) for a long time
    about what the values should be. Two players might both be
    recent college graduates with the same major, but one player is
    clearly smarter than the other, and might argue that since he's
    more intelligent he got more out of the 4 years in college, so
    his Major skill should be 1 point higher than the other player's
    Major skill. You minimize this by using a coarsegrained skill scale.

    A scale of 1-25 is the finest that would not cause me actual
    pain, I think. GURPS and 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons uses
    such scales, and Chivalry & Sorcery. Rolemaster is an example of
    a system which uses a very fine-grained scale, going from 1-100.
    I tend to think of such scales as "fake complexity" - the
    designer utilizes a fine-grained scale so as to make the system
    look realistic. (In their defence, it can be said that
    fine-grained scales make for smoother character advancement -
    but for attributes that is only true if you believe in attribute
    improvement, and I don't).

    Of course it's possible to get too extreme. I think I've got
    things right with the attribute scale in my homebrew system,
    having 5 "steps" of above-average values, the 5th being the
    maximum possible. Systems with only 2 or 3 steps above average
    are confining, although if everyibe in your gaming group is
    ordinary, and you will be using only ordinary NPCs, nobody will
    notice. I'd get a sense of contra-realism, a sort of
    otherworldliness, from such a world, though, completely lacking
    in extraordinary individuals.

    Also for skills there has to be some differences. If the average
    skill of a senior University professor is only one point higher
    than the average skill of a fresh college graduate, then
    something is very wrong.


    I think, in general, it's much more fun to go for detail and
    complexity in the number of stats - using a low-rez scale, but
    measuring lots of things, so to speak. Many would say that
    Rolemaster does both, having 10 attributes. To that, I can only
    point out that my homebrew system has a dozen attributes and
    several dozen sub-attributes. I want to be able to precisely
    define the abilities of individuals, and it lets me do exactly that.

    The same goes for skills. A larger number of skills lets you
    define precisely what your character can do, and this is not
    lost if a coarsegrained skill level scale is used.


    If you want to use GURPS, it's possible to convert ST values to
    lifting ability. If there is no explanation of how encumbrance
    works, in GURPS Lite (and I think there should be), then you can
    get it from friendly posters in rec.games.frp.gurps .

    If you want to start your campaign right away, go purchase
    "GURPS Basic 3rd Edition Revised" and "GURPS Compendium I" (not
    Compendium II - that one is a lot less necessary). Be wary of
    the many added skills in Compendium I, some of them are too
    broad even for my tastes (Starglazing, Uttering of Base Coin, to
    give two examples). Even GURPS Basic divides biology/medicine
    too finely (Steve Jackson was a biology major, and it *shows*).

    But a few months from now, IIRC in August, SJ Games will publish
    GURPS 4th Edition, which in many ways will be an improvement
    over 3rd edition (attributes cost more - which was a sorely
    needed change - and the skill list will have been trimmed of the
    most excessively narrow-scope skills). So you might want to wait.

    I don't know if GURPS 4th Edition will contain the same attempt
    at "demographic quantification" of attribute values as there is
    in Compendium I, but if not then I will pester the designer,
    Sean Punch, to make them available, because I think it's needed,
    in general.

    Same for skills. I want GURPS 4E to tell me what skill level a
    fresh college graduate has in his major, and what skill level
    the average Nobel prize winner has. If the book won't tell me,
    I'll try to get an answer out of the designer.

    3E does give some guidelines for skill values, and you can ask
    around in rec.games.frp.gurps to get more advice from
    experienced users of that system.

    --
    Peter Knutsen
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Jarrod Harmier wrote:

    > 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
    > much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
    > gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
    > anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help

    Strength is based on how much weight you can lift at full extension of your
    arm to one side for five seconds. For those without a weight set handy,
    the equivalent in quarts of water is listed as well.

    Constitution is determined by how often the player gets sick. This gives a
    range; exact point in the range is random.

    Intelligence is determined by one of:

    IQ divided by 9
    percentile score on a standardized intelligence test, checked on a table
    SAT score, checked on a table
    4-point scale GPA in college or high school, multiplied by 4.5

    Dexterity, starts at 10, modified by various things you can do. Yes,
    this does include juggling and other skills, but I personally don't have a
    problem with that, since practicing such does seem to help overall
    dexterity.

    Willpower, Bravado, Appearance, and Perception are decided in similar
    fashion to Dexterity.

    Stamina is determined by a simple body-fat test, plus how much exercise you
    get per week on average, plus a modifier for high Strength, and a few
    adjustments for smoking.

    Body Points and Bruise Points are determined by weight.

    It seems... reasonable. Note that boiling things like dexterity and
    willpower down to a single number is fraught with problems anyways; there's
    distinctions like manual dexterity vs. body agility vs. sense of balance
    vs. reaction speed, or one's ability to resist other's suggestions vs.
    one's ability to fight off your own bad habits.

    --
    ZZzz |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
    /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
    |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
    '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    >Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    >> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    >> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    >> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    >> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    >> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    >> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >>
    >> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    >> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    >> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    >> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    >> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    >> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    >> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.

    I'd say Champions - Hero System. You can figure out Strength easily
    enough with the lifting/throwing chart. Skills are easily defined,
    including familiarities as opposed to highly skilled and such. Even
    powers can be purchased fairly... if you have one friend who may have
    excessive luck, the ability to dream of future events (as I have on
    rare occasions) or other minor abilities.

    -----
    "There'll be someone else sitting here for Comedy Central.
    And that person... or woman... will have to face the fact
    that this is the network built on... South Park."
    - Craig Kilborn, The Daily Show
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    First of all, Pastor of Muppets - thats a dangerous road to go down. I'd
    stick to regular stuff, or you'll have the nuts comming out claiming weird
    powers like exceptional luck and seeing the future, or being favored by
    their god, or being able to control the minds of others, things of that
    nature. If you let in one silly idea, why stop there? Oh, I know... just
    let them all use any super powers they want and then just throw out the
    powers. They will have wasted points on their delusions. Heh, and dont let
    them know they are fake, they will RP the delusion that much more
    realisticly *grins*. You get into a fight and one of them tries to make the
    guys gun jam with his "mechanical fall apart aura", standing there focusing
    as he gets shot! *chuckles*


    As for systems to use as requested in original post, I would use GURPS. Use
    the charts for ST to determine ST, and just guesstimate the others based on
    the ST numbers. If you get a ST14, and are equally more dexterous than most
    people as you are more strong than most people, then use the same score for
    DX. If you are as below average IQ as someone with ST8 is below average
    strong, then use IQ8. All the stats are on the same scale, so, IMO you
    really only need 1 comparison to real life.

    Whatever system you use, it should NOT be a level based system like d20,
    those are very far from reality (at least the HP part of them is
    horrendous). Killing goblins does not make you twice as able to sustain a
    fall. It wouldnt take 10 explosions that would kill any normal man to kill
    a man that has been in lots of fights. And people dont mysteriously get new
    feats after a certain number of kills, they acquire them slowly over time.
    But I'll stop now or I'll go on forever as to why I hate the d20 system.

    My second choice, as much as I hate to agree with a Nut like PoM, I'll have
    to agree Hero is a fine system as well. Just dont let them use super
    powers, unless you too are a nut.


    "Pastor of Muppets" <powerslave11@SPAMSUXcomcast.net> wrote in message news:
    5923b0tmp15voah01jhvc26t5l0g01okvb@4ax.com...
    > >Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    > >> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > >> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > >> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > >> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > >> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > >> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    > >>
    > >> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    > >> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    > >> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    > >> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    > >> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    > >> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    > >> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
    >
    > I'd say Champions - Hero System. You can figure out Strength easily
    > enough with the lifting/throwing chart. Skills are easily defined,
    > including familiarities as opposed to highly skilled and such. Even
    > powers can be purchased fairly... if you have one friend who may have
    > excessive luck, the ability to dream of future events (as I have on
    > rare occasions) or other minor abilities.
    >
    > -----
    > "There'll be someone else sitting here for Comedy Central.
    > And that person... or woman... will have to face the fact
    > that this is the network built on... South Park."
    > - Craig Kilborn, The Daily Show
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    In article <Cg0sc.132$t34.74@read3.inet.fi>,
    Taneli Pirinen <taneli.pirinenremovethis@removethishelsinki.fi.invalid> wrote:

    > I've heard that GURPS Who's Who has those "rules" as well, though I
    > can't say whitch one of those books it is, or if they even include 'em
    > as those books I don't have.

    Appendix B in the back of the first book has a three page section called "Game
    Mechanics & the Great" which gives some detail in how to roll up an historical
    figure.

    In the second book, Chapter One "Conversion process" is a two page section
    reviewing the selection criteria from the first book as well as the Game
    Mechanics.

    These are really guidelines rather than detailed rules.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 22 May 2004 23:47:01 -0700, harmier@yahoo.com (Jarrod Harmier)
    wrote:

    [..]
    >I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    >plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    [...]
    >Any help would be appreciated.

    I tried it with myself.
    I made a "best case" and "worst case" of myself, taking in the first
    case minimum guesstimated stats, skill levels, etc. and in the second
    case the highest I could hope.

    Worst-case was a 3-points character; best-case was 88 points.

    So, I think my range of guessing, while going at maximum 1 or 2 points
    up or down from a guessed mean, generates a WIDE point range.

    So, you can do it by telling your players (if willing to try): "build
    yourself with 25/50/75 points and have fun."!

    Korin Duval
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >
    > I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    > plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    > only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    > the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    > shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    > particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    > I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
    >
    > 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
    > much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
    > gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
    > anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
    >
    > 2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
    > he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
    > they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
    > I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
    > higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
    > power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
    > any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
    > matter?
    >
    > 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
    > the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
    > Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
    > pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
    > the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
    > little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
    > how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
    > character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
    > with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.
    >
    > Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
    > numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
    > the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.
    >
    > Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
    > bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
    > poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
    > strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
    > it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
    > me an alternate method for strength tests.
    >
    > Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
    > like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
    > like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.
    >
    > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
    > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
    > During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
    > that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
    > actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.
    >
    > Any help would be appreciated.

    Google prior discussions on "playing yourself".

    My basic advice: be generous. Err on the side of the players. Unless
    you have James Bond in your group, they'll need help.

    Secondary: decide on what scale (A) you're playing, and (B) your
    stats are being rated. If it's going to be a heroic-scale campaign,
    make sure there's some way for your players to scale up to the
    campaign level.

    If you're going on a bell curve, remember that things like D&D and
    GURPS' scale are either too crude or too limited to model people
    easily. If you go strictly by the probability of rolling certain stats
    in D&D, then many gamers are going to hit the 18 INT level fairly
    easily, as that's just 1 out of 216 people, and THAT is assuming a
    "roll 3d6, take what you get, no rerolls" method, rather than the far
    more generous (and curve skewing) methods commonly used. If you want
    to be accurate, you'll want to figure out the SD on your scale.

    Tests for things like STR are fairly easy to figure out, though
    again you may want to scale it for your audience; after all, if all
    your players turn out to be bodybuilders you don't necessarily want
    them all to have the same stat. INT and WIS are harder to do, and CHA
    is often a point of debate.


    --
    Sea Wasp
    /^\
    ;;;
    Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Sea Wasp wrote:
    >
    > Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    > > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > > out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    > > or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    > > that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    > > point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    > > it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    > >
    > > I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    > > plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    > > only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    > > the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    > > shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    > > particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    > > I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
    > >
    > > 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
    > > much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
    > > gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
    > > anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
    > >
    > > 2) I remember a friend telling me that when he was in the Navy(?) that
    > > he and his friends figured out their D&D stats using some article that
    > > they found in a roleplaying magazine. It might have been "Dragon" but
    > > I'm not sure. Anyway, they found that their intelligence scores were
    > > higher than the gods because the D&D gods didn't know about nuclear
    > > power. (They were engineers.) Or something like that. Anyone have
    > > any links to anything like this so I check it out or thoughts on the
    > > matter?
    > >
    > > 3) I know some people have tried this in "GURPS" and I even read about
    > > the use of 25 point supers that looked like they were still playable.
    > > Anyway, I went to the site and glanced through the free "GURPS Lite"
    > > pdf. I thought that looking through that might give me some idea of
    > > the capabilities of each level of the different attributes. It was a
    > > little frustrating. Sure, a certain range is considered "normal", but
    > > how do the levels differ from each other? How much more can a
    > > character with a strength of 11 lift then when compared to a character
    > > with a strength of 10? Maybe I missed something.
    > >
    > > Anybody have a link to a scale of some sort that gives a rough
    > > numerical estimate (eg. how many pounds can be lifted) of what each
    > > the levels of the attributes correspond to? It would be most helpful.
    > >
    > > Anyway, I went to Google Groups to do a search which still left me a
    > > bit confused, but maybe a little less then with "GURPS Lite". One
    > > poster from some time back mentioned that it might be useful to gauge
    > > strength from a squat lift rather than a military bench press. Okay,
    > > it doesn't exactly help me with understanding "GURPS", but it did give
    > > me an alternate method for strength tests.
    > >
    > > Of course this leads to questions about testing the other attributes
    > > like dexterity? I need a method that isn't dependent on some skill
    > > like juggling or any sort of prolonged practice.
    > >
    > > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
    > > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
    > > During my search of old Usenet posts I actually found a post from 1992
    > > that mentioned about how one group went a little overboard and
    > > actually went and got IQ tests and physical exams.
    > >
    > > Any help would be appreciated.
    >
    > Google prior discussions on "playing yourself".
    >
    > My basic advice: be generous. Err on the side of the players. Unless
    > you have James Bond in your group, they'll need help.
    >
    > Secondary: decide on what scale (A) you're playing, and (B) your
    > stats are being rated. If it's going to be a heroic-scale campaign,
    > make sure there's some way for your players to scale up to the
    > campaign level.
    >
    > If you're going on a bell curve, remember that things like D&D and
    > GURPS' scale are either too crude or too limited to model people
    > easily. If you go strictly by the probability of rolling certain stats
    > in D&D, then many gamers are going to hit the 18 INT level fairly
    > easily, as that's just 1 out of 216 people, and THAT is assuming a
    > "roll 3d6, take what you get, no rerolls" method, rather than the far
    > more generous (and curve skewing) methods commonly used. If you want
    > to be accurate, you'll want to figure out the SD on your scale.
    >
    > Tests for things like STR are fairly easy to figure out, though
    > again you may want to scale it for your audience; after all, if all
    > your players turn out to be bodybuilders you don't necessarily want
    > them all to have the same stat. INT and WIS are harder to do, and CHA
    > is often a point of debate.

    I think Cha is less a point of debate and less of a danger area for hurt
    feelings than Int.

    When determining our characters' Int scores for an old V&V game, I
    suggested that we just give everyone a 14 because "we were all about the
    same intelligence anyway". It was adopted by the DM, I suspect, for much
    the same reason I had suggested it -- just to avoid hurting anyone's
    feelings.

    Well, that and the fact that is was also for the most part true. People
    tend to gravitate towards those with similar intellectual capabilities.

    And sexual market values. Yow.

    - Ron ^*^
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    > 1) I know that BTRC's Timelords exists. However, I don't know too
    > much about it. I don't want to buy it and find that the stats it
    > gives after doing excersices and whatnot don't seem accurate. If
    > anyone has any thoughts about this system, it might help
    >
    Well, there are three different versions, which have two different character
    generation methods. The 1st end 2nd edition are what was described in an
    earlier post, and this is for a 1d20 system (now out of print). The current
    edition is for the open-supplement EABA system and the CORPS system. EABA is
    a multiple d6 system, while CORPS is a highly compressed 1d10 system. Both
    use a modified version of the old character generation rules, tweaked for
    the new rule systems. I think EABA TimeLords would give you the best degree
    of variation between characters. CORPS TimeLords would give you more
    GURPS-like results, with a lot of players having the same stats.

    They also have options for building characters from a point base, building
    characters based on yourself and then adding points or altering them to take
    an alternate character history into account (like "you", but during
    Victorian times).

    The CORPS and EABA versions are available as pdf downloads ($10), and the
    EABA version is available as a nice print on demand version ($20).

    Greg Porter (da designer)
    BTRC
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    We did this once by having a "field day". I forget the specific
    things we used, but we had a big list. We basically reversed
    engineered GURPS skill tests that were based primarily on stats
    directly. So for example Standing Broad Jump distance is a
    direct function of strength as is the distance you can throw
    a heavy object. The length you can hold your breath at rest is
    a function of health. Speed for a 100 yd dash can get ya move/basic speed
    which you can then use to solve for dex etc. A lil delving into
    the basic book can yield a whole bunch of these basic "Field day tests"

    The scary thing was how consistent that these were.
    The strength one sticks out in my mind as VERY precise
    like the estimate from a jump was really consistent with the
    estimate from the thrown object.
    I can just see the Guru's designing the game doing something similar.
    Over mucho beer of course...

    I'll delve when I get home and see if I can find the list of stuff...


    --
    Matthew T. Karafa || If the shoe fits, get another one just like it.
    mkarafa@wideopenwest.com|| - George Carlin
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On Mon, 24 May 2004 01:35:47 -0400, Pastor of Muppets
    <powerslave11@SPAMSUXcomcast.net> raised a finger to the sky and
    proclaimed:

    >>Jarrod Harmier wrote:
    >>> I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    >>> out the real life stats of the players that actually correspond more
    >>> or less to the actual abilities of the players AND the actual methods
    >>> that work the best. I'd like to set up a "play yourself" game at some
    >>> point in the future. Probably the distant future. However, I thought
    >>> it might be good to start now rather than wait.
    >>>
    >>> I'd just like to note that I'm not some sort overly sadistic GM that
    >>> plans to have the players create player characters based on themselves
    >>> only to have me unleash all manner of unholy havoc upon them, leaving
    >>> the player characters dead or dying and leaving the players with
    >>> shattered--or at the very least scarred--psyches. It's not that this
    >>> particular scenario wouldn't be absolute twisted FUN, it's just that
    >>> I'd just rather be a player than a GM.
    >
    >I'd say Champions - Hero System. You can figure out Strength easily
    >enough with the lifting/throwing chart. Skills are easily defined,
    >including familiarities as opposed to highly skilled and such. Even
    >powers can be purchased fairly... if you have one friend who may have
    >excessive luck, the ability to dream of future events (as I have on
    >rare occasions) or other minor abilities.
    >

    Seconded. Use Hero.

    (BTW, Pastor - your sig delimiter is broken)

    --
    Either way, I hate you Count Chocula, if I didn't already.
    - Drifter Bob, rec.games.frp.dnd
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Of course, no roleplaying system could ever hope to compete with that
    pinnacle of roleplaying excellence, Macho Women With Guns.

    --- Brian
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    "Sea Wasp" <seawasp@wizvax.net> wrote in message
    news:40B26F04.60906@wizvax.net...
    >
    > If you're going on a bell curve, remember that things like D&D and
    > GURPS' scale are either too crude or too limited to model people
    > easily. If you go strictly by the probability of rolling certain stats
    > in D&D, then many gamers are going to hit the 18 INT level fairly
    > easily, as that's just 1 out of 216 people, and THAT is assuming a
    > "roll 3d6, take what you get, no rerolls" method, rather than the far
    > more generous (and curve skewing) methods commonly used. If you want
    > to be accurate, you'll want to figure out the SD on your scale.
    >

    Well, many gamers THINK they are really smart, so giving them
    an accurate assessment may be considered an insult.

    Maybe give everyone a certain amount of points (depending on
    system) and let them make themselves how they like; scaling so
    everyone ends up at a suitable power level for whatever type
    of campaign you'll be running.

    Geoff.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    > Just give everyone the same limits and let
    > them "design" their optimal selves. Will it really hurt the point of
    > running Players as PC's if they aren't scientifically verifiable and
    > accurate in their stats? It's still a game. Let them game.
    >
    Despite the fact that the OP is looking voraciously for a system for
    verifiability, this is the best advice you could give. If for nothing else,
    do it this way for the impossibility of measuring things like charisma /
    wisdom (or whatever equivalent stats you'll find in other RPGs). But mainly
    because it's more fun to make your "optimal self", more fun to have everyone
    on the same footing (no characters way better than others), and more fun to
    snicker at other players' choices ("Does he really think he has an 18
    Charisma???") :-)

    Spinner
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    > I've been looking for a roleplaying system that I could use to figure
    > out the real life stats of the players...

    Not a role playing system, but I have implemented a version of an AD&D
    stat quiz as proposed by Dave Harper in rec.games.frp.dnd and later
    implemented as a server side application by Bruce Blanchard (see my
    post in rec.games.frp.dnd titled "AD&D Stats Quiz is Back" for more
    details.

    My version of the quiz is online at:
    http://www.theHaws.org/add_quiz.shtml.

    I would appreciate feedback anyone can offer via
    http://www.theHaws.org/contact.shtml (please do not use the
    EMAIL from this post - it's an old work account).

    Thanks,

    Kevin Haw
    (STR 13, INT 15, WIS 15, DEX 8, CON 13, CHR 12... and glad he doesn't
    fight trolls in real life)
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    "Duane VanderPol" <duanevp@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<OsydnTEk0d45UC3d4p2dnA@adelphia.com>...
    >
    > > And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
    > > everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
    >
    > A) have mature players.

    Very funny, smartass.
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    C. Woolard wrote:
    > "Duane VanderPol" <duanevp@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<OsydnTEk0d45UC3d4p2dnA@adelphia.com>...
    >
    >>>And how does one gauge IQ without totally aggravating and alienating
    >>>everyone involved? And without actually resorting to IQ testing?
    >>
    >> A) have mature players.
    >
    >
    > Very funny, smartass.

    But true. If your players can't handle the truth...

    Use whatever assessment of intelligence works for the group. Some
    people use GRE scores. Others use various other methods.

    --
    Sea Wasp
    /^\
    ;;;
    Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
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