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Reality Shows and Superheros

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Anonymous
May 27, 2004 1:36:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

The Meta-Real Life: Your superhero team is offered a free HQ with
all the frills. The catch is that the feed from the security cameras
all over the HQ and the team vehicle is then edited together into a TV
show starring your characters.

Who Wants to Be a Superhero?: Contestants from all over compete
to show their fitness to be rebuilt into super-powered cyborg
crimefighters. In the sequel, the audience will get to watch them
in action because their cybernetics include a recording device.

Who Wants to Marry a Supervillain?: A super powered criminal
has just finished paying his debt to society and instead of going
back to a life of crime he's decided to take his bad boy glamour
and put it on the open market. 12 women will compete for his
favours as the nation watches.
Anonymous
May 27, 2004 6:12:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgormannospam@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40b5ab35.21511189@news.telusplanet.net...
> The Meta-Real Life: Your superhero team is offered a free HQ with
> all the frills. The catch is that the feed from the security cameras
> all over the HQ and the team vehicle is then edited together into a TV
> show starring your characters.
>
> Who Wants to Be a Superhero?: Contestants from all over compete
> to show their fitness to be rebuilt into super-powered cyborg
> crimefighters. In the sequel, the audience will get to watch them
> in action because their cybernetics include a recording device.
>
> Who Wants to Marry a Supervillain?: A super powered criminal
> has just finished paying his debt to society and instead of going
> back to a life of crime he's decided to take his bad boy glamour
> and put it on the open market. 12 women will compete for his
> favours as the nation watches.
>
>
>

Just for the record wasn't Stan Lee doing a real world version of the second
one? And there is a Cyberage/IHero story about a guy whose given a
crimefighting suit for a "reality" TV program who goes out and actually
sorta does real hero stuff.



Still cool ideas.

One interesting thing would be to have a superhero whose willing to give up
his secret identity and a bunch of normal guys (or vice versa) and you let
an amateur detective sleuth try and figure out who the real superhero
is---catch of course is the fact that they are setting up events that make
it look like several of them are supers.
Anonymous
May 27, 2004 6:30:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgormannospam@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40b5ab35.21511189@news.telusplanet.net...
> The Meta-Real Life: Your superhero team is offered a free HQ with
> all the frills. The catch is that the feed from the security cameras
> all over the HQ and the team vehicle is then edited together into a TV
> show starring your characters.

The Book Young Justice did this in it's last few issues, I seem to recall.
Didn't get too developed, but it was cool to see Robin as "Mr. Sarcastic."
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Anonymous
May 27, 2004 8:38:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 27 May 2004 09:36, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:
>The Meta-Real Life:
>Who Wants to Be a Superhero?:
>Who Wants to Marry a Supervillain?:

Those are all great ideas and I'm stealing them for my game.


--
chuk
Anonymous
May 27, 2004 9:26:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

>Just for the record wasn't Stan Lee doing a real world version of the second
>one?

I had heard about this, too. I haven't seen anything else on it though. I was
actually going to audition.

Check Wildguard. It's a comic about a contest to find the members of a teram
of heroes. Interesting stuff.

Captain Geek
Anonymous
May 28, 2004 1:22:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgormannospam@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40b5ab35.21511189@news.telusplanet.net...
> The Meta-Real Life: Your superhero team is offered a free HQ with
> all the frills. The catch is that the feed from the security cameras
> all over the HQ and the team vehicle is then edited together into a TV
> show starring your characters.
>
> Who Wants to Be a Superhero?: Contestants from all over compete
> to show their fitness to be rebuilt into super-powered cyborg
> crimefighters. In the sequel, the audience will get to watch them
> in action because their cybernetics include a recording device.
>
> Who Wants to Marry a Supervillain?: A super powered criminal
> has just finished paying his debt to society and instead of going
> back to a life of crime he's decided to take his bad boy glamour
> and put it on the open market. 12 women will compete for his
> favours as the nation watches.
>
Hey! Wasn't that guy on "Supers?"
Anonymous
May 28, 2004 12:23:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

It shouldn't happen to a Vet
Another batch of hilarious out-takes, fresh from the helmcams of
our brave Supersolders, fighting in The Zone

The Mundane House
Six supers wearing power nullifiers have to live as ordinary
people. This week their old foe Dr Destroyer pays a visit.
(strong language, brief scenes of violence, last in series)

What ever happened to...
We track down the earthly remains of retired superheros
this week the Antimatter kid (last in series).

--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
Anonymous
May 28, 2004 12:23:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Mr. M.J. Lush" <mlush@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:c96su4$56c$1@helium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk...
> It shouldn't happen to a Vet
> Another batch of hilarious out-takes, fresh from the helmcams of
> our brave Supersolders, fighting in The Zone

That's right after "Behind the Mask." and will be replaced with the
"S-Metahuman Watch..."

>
> The Mundane House
> Six supers wearing power nullifiers have to live as ordinary
> people. This week their old foe Dr Destroyer pays a visit.
> (strong language, brief scenes of violence, last in series)

The replacement series is Sanctuary Watch with Joan Rivers and the Maked
Maurader...
>
> What ever happened to...
> We track down the earthly remains of retired superheros
> this week the Antimatter kid (last in series).

To be replaced with "Parahumans Uncensored"

All on the "S" network for all your Metahuman news and entertainment...
Anonymous
May 28, 2004 8:32:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 27 May 2004 22:52, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma@lava.net> wrote:
>> The Mundane House
>> Six supers wearing power nullifiers have to live as ordinary
>> people. This week their old foe Dr Destroyer pays a visit.
>> (strong language, brief scenes of violence, last in series)
>
>The replacement series is Sanctuary Watch with Joan Rivers and the Maked
>Maurader...

Is that supposed to be "Masked Marauder" or "Naked Marauder"?



--
chuk
Anonymous
May 28, 2004 8:32:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Chuk Goodin" <cgoodin@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:c97pib$i59$1@morgoth.sfu.ca...
> On Thu, 27 May 2004 22:52, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma@lava.net> wrote:
> >> The Mundane House
> >> Six supers wearing power nullifiers have to live as ordinary
> >> people. This week their old foe Dr Destroyer pays a visit.
> >> (strong language, brief scenes of violence, last in series)
> >
> >The replacement series is Sanctuary Watch with Joan Rivers and the Maked
> >Maurader...
>
> Is that supposed to be "Masked Marauder" or "Naked Marauder"?
>
Naked Marauder is on HBO.
Anonymous
May 28, 2004 11:11:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:

[ snip super-reality shows ]


Hero House!

A team of supers has 1 hour to tear down a condemned
building, haul away the rubble, bring fresh supplies
from the warehouse, and construct a brand new dream
home for this week's lucky family.


Amazing Real Super-Videos

This episode: hero catches school bus thrown off cliff;
giant robots attack amusement park; heroes stop tornado.



>;K
Anonymous
May 29, 2004 9:42:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:22:39 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma@lava.net>
wrote:

>Hey! Wasn't that guy on "Supers?"

The problem with the "Cops" format is that unlike cops, superheros
have no real reason to cooperate with such a show. The cops
do it for PR because that's important to get public cooperation
and to get support for their funding. I dunno, maybe hero mutants
would do it to combat anti-mutant prejudice.
Anonymous
May 29, 2004 9:42:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgormannospam@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40b816d7.42310983@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:22:39 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma@lava.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Hey! Wasn't that guy on "Supers?"
>
> The problem with the "Cops" format is that unlike cops, superheros
> have no real reason to cooperate with such a show. The cops
> do it for PR because that's important to get public cooperation
> and to get support for their funding. I dunno, maybe hero mutants
> would do it to combat anti-mutant prejudice.

Sponsors, get leads, commercials, and mostly because an Egomaniac drags them
into it.
Anonymous
May 29, 2004 11:10:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Meta-Court Reporter:

(News, Legal). Ongoing coverage of 3-way lawsuit
between Great American Mall Corp.; Dr. Devious ;
and Captain Fantastic /et al/, following battle
last November at shopping mall.

World's Funniest Super-Bloopers

(Video, Comedy). Villain trapped in bank vault;
hero flies into tree; costume accidents.


>;K
Anonymous
May 29, 2004 9:00:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

America's Dumbest Super Villains:
(Video, Comedy) Footage of Mr Magnetic's attempted escape
through auto-wrecking yard, police extracting The Phantom Hand from a
vault door after he forgot to change the batteries in his Intangibility
Belt, Blooper reel from Dr Destructo's various "Surrender the World"
speeches.

The Cape:
(Fox) The ultimate makeover! We take a group of 90lb weaklings
and expose them to radiation, inject them with unstable alien viruses,
give them ancient cursed artifacts, spray them with unusual chemicals
and have them abducted by aliens. Which one will survive long enough to
develop super-powers?

American Hero:
(Fox) Young meta-humans from all over America compete to see who
the audience will choose to become Fox's new sponsored superhero.

When Giant Robots Attack!:
(Fox) Compilation "documentary" of various giant robot attacks
throughout the world.

The Super Life of.....
(E!) "Rich and Famous" style guide to the lives of public
superhumans and their cribs.

Super Buildings:
(Discovery, Documentary) An insider's eye view to the
headquarters of the world's greatest super teams, explaining the unique
engineering problems they face and their solutions. Also includes "Great
Secret Volcano Bases of the World".

I'm A Superhero, Get Me Out of Here!:
(ABC) Two teams of six superhumans must survive on a remote
island without using their superpowers. Who will come out on top when
the masks come off?

Man of Steel:
(ESPN) Superhumans compete against each other in trials of
strength, speed, intelligence and endurance for the coveted title of
"Man of Steel."

Xtreme Sports!:
(ESPN2) Indestructible superhuman daredevil Xtreme tests his
powers to the limit every week in viewer suggested sports stunts. This
week, Pearl Diving Xtreme style! Can Xtreme retrieve an adamantium
bearing dropped into an active volcano?

Doctor TOC
--
The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris"
Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, Kóri Wulfmangler
ICQ # 4814586
Argent Games - http://www.argentgames.com
alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days
The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc
Anonymous
May 29, 2004 9:04:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Sat, 29 May 2004 05:42:27 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:22:39 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma@lava.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Hey! Wasn't that guy on "Supers?"
>
>The problem with the "Cops" format is that unlike cops, superheros
>have no real reason to cooperate with such a show. The cops
>do it for PR because that's important to get public cooperation
>and to get support for their funding. I dunno, maybe hero mutants
>would do it to combat anti-mutant prejudice.

Many superheroes have the same kind of problems police do with public
perception. Not everyone is Superman.
Anonymous
May 30, 2004 1:40:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:00:49 -0400, Doctor TOC <otherchris@erols.com>
wrote:

>America's Dumbest Super Villains:
> (Video, Comedy) Footage of Mr Magnetic's attempted escape
>through auto-wrecking yard, police extracting The Phantom Hand from a
>vault door after he forgot to change the batteries in his Intangibility
>Belt, Blooper reel from Dr Destructo's various "Surrender the World"
>speeches.

Now that is one _dangerous_ show for the people who produce it.

>
>The Cape:
> (Fox) The ultimate makeover! We take a group of 90lb weaklings
>and expose them to radiation, inject them with unstable alien viruses,
>give them ancient cursed artifacts, spray them with unusual chemicals
>and have them abducted by aliens. Which one will survive long enough to
>develop super-powers?

The problem is, that one would be illegal even with liability waivers.


>
>American Hero:
> (Fox) Young meta-humans from all over America compete to see who
>the audience will choose to become Fox's new sponsored superhero.

I can see that.

>
>When Giant Robots Attack!:
> (Fox) Compilation "documentary" of various giant robot attacks
>throughout the world.
>
>The Super Life of.....
> (E!) "Rich and Famous" style guide to the lives of public
>superhumans and their cribs.
>
>Super Buildings:
> (Discovery, Documentary) An insider's eye view to the
>headquarters of the world's greatest super teams, explaining the unique
>engineering problems they face and their solutions. Also includes "Great
>Secret Volcano Bases of the World".
>
>I'm A Superhero, Get Me Out of Here!:
> (ABC) Two teams of six superhumans must survive on a remote
>island without using their superpowers. Who will come out on top when
>the masks come off?

I don't think that one would work. People would want to see
superhumans use their powers and the superhumans wouldn't
want to cut off from their powers.

>
>Man of Steel:
> (ESPN) Superhumans compete against each other in trials of
>strength, speed, intelligence and endurance for the coveted title of
>"Man of Steel."
>
>Xtreme Sports!:
> (ESPN2) Indestructible superhuman daredevil Xtreme tests his
>powers to the limit every week in viewer suggested sports stunts. This
>week, Pearl Diving Xtreme style! Can Xtreme retrieve an adamantium
>bearing dropped into an active volcano?

Interesting character idea.
Anonymous
May 30, 2004 3:45:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) abagooba zoink larblortch
news:40b8f704.16738048@news.telusplanet.net:

>> (ABC) Two teams of six superhumans must survive on a remote
>>island without using their superpowers. Who will come out on top when
>>the masks come off?
>
> I don't think that one would work. People would want to see
> superhumans use their powers and the superhumans wouldn't
> want to cut off from their powers.

That's why the producers will engineer "challenges", to tempt the
contestants. The show will recruit seventeenth-stringers, who will be
desperate to do anything for publicity. These are the "superheroes" you
would only call after the Justice Society, the Chicago Shoulder Boys, the
local cops, the Boy Scouts, your next door neighbor, and your worthless
brother-in-law all can't be got hold of.
Anonymous
May 30, 2004 5:18:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

> That's why the producers will engineer "challenges", to tempt the
> contestants. The show will recruit seventeenth-stringers, who will be
> desperate to do anything for publicity. These are the "superheroes" you
> would only call after the Justice Society, the Chicago Shoulder Boys, the
> local cops, the Boy Scouts, your next door neighbor, and your worthless
> brother-in-law all can't be got hold of.

Bingo. The real show this is inspired by used "celebrities" who were
famous only in the sense of "hey, whatever happened to whatisname?" The
superhumans involved would be the metahuman equivalent of MC Hammer and
Vanilla Ice...

Doctor TOC
--
The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris"
Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, Kóri Wulfmangler
ICQ # 4814586
Argent Games - http://www.argentgames.com
alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days
The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 10:22:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

In the super-universe I play in, there is "New York Justice". A
reality show about a super-team. Going out, fighting crime,
supervillians, what have you.

The first season resulted in one superhero's secret ID being totally
blown as the result of a cameraman deliberately violating the rules
and the producers deciding to run the footage, the ruining of a
superheroine's reputation by showing that she was not, as some people
thought, a virgin; the death of a supervillian when someone shot his
jet-backpack while he was flying, sending him \plummeting to his
death....

.....and they're making a second season. This time, though, one of the
big conflicts?

The original New York Justice team - who left the team and took the
name, claiming they were going to just keep working as a superteam
without corporate approval - vs. the new team assembled for the TV
show.

Ratings are expected to be high.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 11:17:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgormannospam@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:40b816d7.42310983@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:22:39 -1000, "Warren Okuma" <wokuma@lava.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Hey! Wasn't that guy on "Supers?"
>
> The problem with the "Cops" format is that unlike cops, superheros
> have no real reason to cooperate with such a show. The cops
> do it for PR because that's important to get public cooperation
> and to get support for their funding. I dunno, maybe hero mutants
> would do it to combat anti-mutant prejudice.

I dunno, nobody has any real reason to go on Big Brother but they still find
a steady stream of people for it.


--
David Meadows
Heroes: www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts/
A comic book -- without the pictures
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 2:26:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

In article <40be1aa7$0$44288$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
David Meadows <david@no.spam.here.uk> wrote:
>
>I dunno, nobody has any real reason to go on Big Brother but they still find
>a steady stream of people for it.

They are offering total nobodys the chance to become Z list celebs.

--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 4:16:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Geoff Depew <m3phr0n@0pt0nl1n3.n3t> wrote in message news:<uijlb0pjhl2mbn6dosthnjl8csvpnpgs6b@4ax.com>...
> In the super-universe I play in, there is "New York Justice". A
> reality show about a super-team. Going out, fighting crime,
> supervillians, what have you.
>
snip
> the ruining of a
> superheroine's reputation by showing that she was not, as some people
> thought, a virgin;
>

Ok, in this day and age how would that revelation ruin someones
reputation? Was she an abstinance advocate exposed as a hipocrite or
what? I would think that, except in the aforementioned case, this
sort of revelation would end up increasing net popularity (it would
drop among some moral conservatives and rise among everyone else).
Anonymous
June 5, 2004 1:26:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com> wrote in message
news:5634e595.0406031116.50982fd2@posting.google.com...
> Geoff Depew <m3phr0n@0pt0nl1n3.n3t> wrote in message
news:<uijlb0pjhl2mbn6dosthnjl8csvpnpgs6b@4ax.com>...
> > In the super-universe I play in, there is "New York Justice". A
> > reality show about a super-team. Going out, fighting crime,
> > supervillians, what have you.
> >
> snip
> > the ruining of a
> > superheroine's reputation by showing that she was not, as some people
> > thought, a virgin;
> >
>
> Ok, in this day and age how would that revelation ruin someones
> reputation? Was she an abstinance advocate exposed as a hipocrite or
> what? I would think that, except in the aforementioned case, this
> sort of revelation would end up increasing net popularity (it would
> drop among some moral conservatives and rise among everyone else).

Well, if I found out that about Wonder Woman I would stop buying her
comic




  • *This is not true, of course. I would simply boycott the writer who did it.


    --
    David Meadows
    Heroes: www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts/
    A comic book -- without the pictures
    Anonymous
    June 8, 2004 1:36:03 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Richard Brown wrote:

    > I still don't buy it.

    That's your prerogative, but none of the people you are talking about exude
    the kind of moral superiority that superheroes routinely display. To me it
    seems they'd be a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

    --
    Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman@comcast.net
    #include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

    "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
    when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
    Anonymous
    June 8, 2004 5:22:08 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) abagooba zoink larblortch
    news:5634e595.0406071532.48721a9a@posting.google.com:

    > Quite the oposite in fact, if someone in the public eye even apears to
    > hold themselves to any kind of standard they are ganged up on by the
    > press any flaws are looked for and when a flaw is found the media go
    > after it like piranah.

    You mean, like a moralizing superheroine who turns out not to actually be a
    "virgin and proud of it", after all?
    Anonymous
    June 8, 2004 2:42:40 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    "Bryan J. Maloney" <cavaggione@sbcglobal.not> wrote in message news:<Xns9501CF35B508CYarblookie@207.115.63.158>...
    > rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) abagooba zoink larblortch
    > news:5634e595.0406071532.48721a9a@posting.google.com:
    >
    > > Quite the oposite in fact, if someone in the public eye even apears to
    > > hold themselves to any kind of standard they are ganged up on by the
    > > press any flaws are looked for and when a flaw is found the media go
    > > after it like piranah.
    >
    > You mean, like a moralizing superheroine who turns out not to actually be a
    > "virgin and proud of it", after all?

    If you read my earlyer post you will note that I mentioned that that
    sort of person is the only one I expected to be negatively affected by
    such a revelation. However in the original post the heroine was
    someone some people but not all believed was a virgin, somehow that
    didn't sound like a moralizing "virgin and proud of it" to me.
    Anonymous
    June 8, 2004 4:07:31 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<7cCdnUtJfc5Tiljd4p2dnA@comcast.com>...
    > Richard Brown wrote:
    >
    > > I still don't buy it.
    >
    > That's your prerogative, but none of the people you are talking about exude
    > the kind of moral superiority that superheroes routinely display. To me it
    > seems they'd be a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

    My point was that they all used to exude that sort of moral
    superiority. Profesional atheletes, politicians and other celebreties
    used to be held up as examples to young people, they aren't any more,
    quite the oposite in fact. If your game world is modled on the real
    one then wouldn't the moral superiority of superheroes have eroded
    right along with everyone else? A great deal of the erosion of moral
    superiority has been a change in the media from being willing to cover
    up unfavorable things (from FDR being in a wheelchair to Kenedy's
    infidelity) to a paparatzi that delights in digging up the dirt on
    celebrities. The modern press doesn't alow anyone to exude moral
    superiority, draging people through the mud brings better ratings.
    The only escape a superhero would have from this would be in a secred
    identity, and someone with a secret ID wouldn't be going on the sort
    of reality show that started this discussion. Actualy I would imagine
    maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    virtualy impossible for any hero, leaving secret ID's the province of
    shadowy characters who shun the media spotlight and will as a
    consiquence be labled criminal vigilantee's at best and suspected mob
    enforcers at worst.
    Quite frankly the best I would expect in a coupling of real
    superheroes and a realistic modern media would be heroes who could put
    a postive spin on the foibles in their personal lives. Maintaining a
    moral superiority however I don't find believable. Of course if you
    wish them to do so in your game world you can, just don't be surprised
    when people don't buy it.
    Anonymous
    June 8, 2004 9:17:49 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Richard Brown wrote:

    > My point was that they all used to exude that sort of moral
    > superiority.

    Really. How many of them took to the streets as self-appointed defenders of
    Truth, Justice and the American Way? By simply doing what they do,
    superheores declare themselves better than other people.

    > Profesional atheletes, politicians and other celebreties
    > used to be held up as examples to young people, they aren't any more,
    > quite the oposite in fact.

    For the most part, they never asked to be.

    A current exception would be Bush 2.0, who makes a big deal out of his faith
    (which I'm sure is a PR act, but that's another rant). Imagine, though, the
    public outcry if he were caught getting it on the side.

    > If your game world is modled on the real
    > one then wouldn't the moral superiority of superheroes have eroded
    > right along with everyone else?

    No, because it can't. Superheroes without moral superiority are costumed
    vigilantes, and a Clear And Present Danger To The Community.

    > Actualy I would imagine
    > maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    > virtualy impossible for any hero,

    You can remove the "virtually" in any universe with demonstratable psychic
    and/or magical powers.

    > leaving secret ID's the province of
    > shadowy characters who shun the media spotlight and will as a
    > consiquence be labled criminal vigilantee's at best and suspected mob
    > enforcers at worst.

    You're making my point.

    > Maintaining a
    > moral superiority however I don't find believable. Of course if you
    > wish them to do so in your game world you can, just don't be surprised
    > when people don't buy it.

    Whether or not a super could live up to the image is problematic, of course,
    but I certainly think it would be expected of them.

    --
    Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman@comcast.net
    #include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

    "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
    when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 12:55:48 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 8 Jun 2004 12:07:31 -0700, rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:

    >celebrities. The modern press doesn't alow anyone to exude moral
    >superiority, draging people through the mud brings better ratings.

    At the same time however, Brittany Spears' "sexy virgin" image
    was a real asset to her career and said career took a hit once
    she was officially unvirgined. She had to reinvent herself into
    Madonna Jr to keep going and she seems less comfortable in
    that public role.

    >The only escape a superhero would have from this would be in a secred
    >identity, and someone with a secret ID wouldn't be going on the sort
    >of reality show that started this discussion. Actualy I would imagine
    >maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    >virtualy impossible for any hero,

    Any hero who doesn't possess a physical transformation power.
    It is quite believeable that Willy Wallis, a ten year old with the
    power to turn into a mountain of adult muscle named
    Captain Crusader will remain undetected in his secret I.D. by
    anything short of telepathy. And since there will be a flood
    of self-proclaimed psychics selling imaginary information to
    tabloids, that won't even be the most plausible tip to the media.
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 5:54:22 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman@comcast.net> abagooba zoink
    larblortch news:p OCdnU8DWNdwsVvd4p2dnA@comcast.com:

    > No, because it can't. Superheroes without moral superiority are
    > costumed
    > vigilantes, and a Clear And Present Danger To The Community.

    Absolutely! But we know we can trust Los Luchadores! They are the friends
    of the people. So the people will help them keep their secrets as a sacred
    trust for their protectors, especially when the authorities who demand
    their identities are corrupt and only think of their own enrichment at the
    expense of the people! Viva Los Luchadores!
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 9:05:29 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    David Johnston wrote:
    >> celebrities. The modern press doesn't alow anyone to exude moral
    >> superiority, draging people through the mud brings better ratings.
    >
    > At the same time however, Brittany Spears' "sexy virgin" image
    > was a real asset to her career and said career took a hit once
    > she was officially unvirgined. She had to reinvent herself into
    > Madonna Jr to keep going and she seems less comfortable in
    > that public role.

    I don't think she's less comfortable, really (she was clearly not that
    innocent -- pun intended -- way back in 2000, when the reports of her
    smoking, drinking, cursing, and generally treating people like trash
    started). People just didn't really care, because she was nice eye
    candy. It's just that she doesn't have anything to set her apart from
    the rest, anymore, so people have to look at things like real
    entertainment and talent.

    You have your events kind of mixed up though. She changed her
    image before she was officially unvirgined. She took some flack for
    this change, and some even think that her unvirgining was an intended
    part of the change.
    --
    -=[ The BlakGard ]=-
    "Somewhere there's danger;
    somewhere there's injustice,
    and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 9:13:00 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Hefferman wrote:
    >> My point was that they all used to exude that sort of moral
    >> superiority.
    >
    > Really. How many of them took to the streets as self-appointed defenders of
    > Truth, Justice and the American Way? By simply doing what they do,
    > superheores declare themselves better than other people.

    But not all people.
    --
    -=[ The BlakGard ]=-
    "Somewhere there's danger;
    somewhere there's injustice,
    and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 5:21:07 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<pOCdnU8DWNdwsVvd4p2dnA@comcast.com>...
    > Richard Brown wrote:
    >
    > > My point was that they all used to exude that sort of moral
    > > superiority.
    >
    > Really. How many of them took to the streets as self-appointed defenders of
    > Truth, Justice and the American Way?

    Untill recently that was pretty much what anyone whe ran for office
    did. True they didn't go out engaging in individual vigalanteism, but
    they did "clean up their comunities," or very literaly "fight for
    right" in a war or often both. Also cops do that every day and no one
    thinks they have any moral superiority (yes I know cops have to go
    through the academy and get hired to do the job, but it's the
    indivudual officer who decides to persue that career on his own
    initiative). To me the only diference between a cop and a superhero
    is the superhero's figures their powers mean "we don' need no steenkin
    bodges."

    >By simply doing what they do,
    > superheores declare themselves better than other people.
    >

    They may think they are better than other people, that doesn't mean
    they will be perceived that way by the general public any more than
    cops are. Remember thay the view of these characters you get from the
    comics is a insiders view of their world, the average man on the
    street doesn't know Batman has a strong ethical code and probably just
    devoutly hopes that Gordon isn't a fool for trusting him.

    > > Profesional atheletes, politicians and other celebreties
    > > used to be held up as examples to young people, they aren't any more,
    > > quite the oposite in fact.
    >
    > For the most part, they never asked to be.
    >

    They didn't have to ask the meer fact of them being in the public
    spotlight makes them an example. If they weren't advertizers wouldn't
    shell out the big bucks for endorcement deals.


    > > If your game world is modled on the real
    > > one then wouldn't the moral superiority of superheroes have eroded
    > > right along with everyone else?
    >
    > No, because it can't. Superheroes without moral superiority are costumed
    > vigilantes, and a Clear And Present Danger To The Community.
    >

    Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
    A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
    B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
    endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
    away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
    (unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
    government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
    being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
    aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
    ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
    Of course that also opens up a debate on the diference between what
    the superhero thinks he's doing, what the police think he's doing, and
    what the public thinks of him. There have been times when Spiderman
    had the Bugle and it's readers after his head, while the police just
    wanted to question him (he had done enough good that they were looking
    the other way on his vigalanteism) and the old web head was just
    trying to live up to the "great responsibility" that came with his
    powers. OTOH in _The Dark Knight Returns_ had an old Batman coming
    out of retirment to resume his crusade on crime absolutely sure of his
    own righeousness, but the new police comisioner declared him public
    enemy #1, and the people were divided over whether he was a hero or
    villan. The Punisher is always sure of his own righeousness, but to
    the police he's a murderer and to the public a psycho. The difering
    points of view make it imposible to find a clear cut moral
    superiority. The best most heroes can hope for is an oficial
    endorcement that might get withdrawn at the next election and fewer
    acusations of brutality than the police.

    > > Actualy I would imagine
    > > maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    > > virtualy impossible for any hero,
    >
    > You can remove the "virtually" in any universe with demonstratable psychic
    > and/or magical powers.
    >

    Depends on how common those abilities are, and how reliable they are
    percieved as being. If they are rare or the general public beleives
    them to be unreliable secret ID's may be possible, untill the
    paparatzi catch the hero with his mask off.

    > > leaving secret ID's the province of
    > > shadowy characters who shun the media spotlight and will as a
    > > consiquence be labled criminal vigilantee's at best and suspected mob
    > > enforcers at worst.
    >
    > You're making my point.
    >

    Really? Do Spiderman and Daredevil operate from any less of a moral
    high groud because they have bad press coverage? Do the Avengers and
    FF have any beter moral high ground than the X-men because they have
    an oficial government endorcement? A government endorcement doesn't
    give a public perception of being on the moral high ground, it dosen't
    even give good press coverage, just ask any cop. Yet in the comics a
    government endorcement is all that's required to go from being a
    criminal vigalantee to being "one of the good guys." And no a hero
    doesn't necesarily have to have a public perception of moral
    superiority to get a government endorcement (at least in the comics)
    both Spiderman and the Beast (from X-men) are reserve Avengers but
    that doesn't help there public image in the least, it doesn't help
    with the cops either unless they pull out the Avengers ID in which
    case they can get grudging suppourt.

    > > Maintaining a
    > > moral superiority however I don't find believable. Of course if you
    > > wish them to do so in your game world you can, just don't be surprised
    > > when people don't buy it.
    >
    > Whether or not a super could live up to the image is problematic, of course,
    > but I certainly think it would be expected of them.

    An asumption that has IMO no basis in how public opinion and PR realy
    work.
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 5:21:10 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:<pOCdnU8DWNdwsVvd4p2dnA@comcast.com>...
    > Richard Brown wrote:
    >
    > > My point was that they all used to exude that sort of moral
    > > superiority.
    >
    > Really. How many of them took to the streets as self-appointed defenders of
    > Truth, Justice and the American Way?

    Untill recently that was pretty much what anyone whe ran for office
    did. True they
    didn't go out engaging in individual vigalanteism, but they did "clean
    up their
    comunities," or very literaly "fight for right" in a war or often
    both. Also cops do that
    every day and no one thinks they have any moral superiority (yes I
    know cops have
    to go through the academy and get hired to do the job, but it's the
    indivudual officer
    who decides to persue that career on his own initiative). To me the
    only diference
    between a cop and a superhero is the superhero's figures their powers
    mean "we
    don' need no steenkin bodges."

    >By simply doing what they do,
    > superheores declare themselves better than other people.
    >

    They may think they are better than other people, that doesn't mean
    they will be
    perceived that way by the general public any more than cops are.
    Remember thay
    the view of these characters you get from the comics is a insiders
    view of their
    world, the average man on the street doesn't know Batman has a strong
    ethical code
    and probably just devoutly hopes that Gordon isn't a fool for trusting
    him.

    > > Profesional atheletes, politicians and other celebreties
    > > used to be held up as examples to young people, they aren't any more,
    > > quite the oposite in fact.
    >
    > For the most part, they never asked to be.
    >

    They didn't have to ask the meer fact of them being in the public
    spotlight makes
    them an example. If they weren't advertizers wouldn't shell out the
    big bucks for
    endorcement deals.


    > > If your game world is modled on the real
    > > one then wouldn't the moral superiority of superheroes have eroded
    > > right along with everyone else?
    >
    > No, because it can't. Superheroes without moral superiority are costumed
    > vigilantes, and a Clear And Present Danger To The Community.
    >

    Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    opinion. Any
    Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is A)deptutised
    by local law
    enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or B)becomes a member of a
    superhero team
    that has an official endorcement from the local/national government or
    UN. Batman
    gets away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
    (unoficialy
    deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a government aproved
    group).
    Captain America get's away with it by being a government agent and
    member of a
    aproved group. The X-men aren't a government aproved group and
    despite having
    the moral high ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
    Of course that also opens up a debate on the diference between what
    the superhero
    thinks he's doing, what the police think he's doing, and what the
    public thinks of him.
    There have been times when Spiderman had the Bugle and it's readers
    after his
    head, while the police just wanted to question him (he had done enough
    good that
    they were looking the other way on his vigalanteism) and the old web
    head was just
    trying to live up to the "great responsibility" that came with his
    powers. OTOH in
    _The Dark Knight Returns_ had an old Batman coming out of retirment to
    resume
    his crusade on crime absolutely sure of his own righeousness, but the
    new police
    comisioner declared him public enemy #1, and the people were divided
    over
    whether he was a hero or villan. The Punisher is always sure of his
    own
    righeousness, but to the police he's a murderer and to the public a
    psycho. The
    difering points of view make it imposible to find a clear cut moral
    superiority. The
    best most heroes can hope for is an oficial endorcement that might get
    withdrawn at
    the next election and fewer acusations of brutality than the police.

    > > Actualy I would imagine
    > > maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    > > virtualy impossible for any hero,
    >
    > You can remove the "virtually" in any universe with demonstratable psychic
    > and/or magical powers.
    >

    Depends on how common those abilities are, and how reliable they are
    percieved as
    being. If they are rare or the general public beleives them to be
    unreliable secret
    ID's may be possible, untill the paparatzi catch the hero with his
    mask off.

    > > leaving secret ID's the province of
    > > shadowy characters who shun the media spotlight and will as a
    > > consiquence be labled criminal vigilantee's at best and suspected mob
    > > enforcers at worst.
    >
    > You're making my point.
    >

    Really? Do Spiderman and Daredevil operate from any less of a moral
    high groud
    because they have bad press coverage? Do the Avengers and FF have any
    beter
    moral high ground than the X-men because they have an oficial
    government
    endorcement? A government endorcement doesn't give a public
    perception of being
    on the moral high ground, it dosen't even give good press coverage,
    just ask any
    cop. Yet in the comics a government endorcement is all that's
    required to go from
    being a criminal vigalantee to being "one of the good guys." And no a
    hero doesn't
    necesarily have to have a public perception of moral superiority to
    get a government
    endorcement (at least in the comics) both Spiderman and the Beast
    (from X-men)
    are reserve Avengers but that doesn't help there public image in the
    least, it doesn't
    help with the cops either unless they pull out the Avengers ID in
    which case they can
    get grudging suppourt.

    > > Maintaining a
    > > moral superiority however I don't find believable. Of course if you
    > > wish them to do so in your game world you can, just don't be surprised
    > > when people don't buy it.
    >
    > Whether or not a super could live up to the image is problematic, of course,
    > but I certainly think it would be expected of them.

    An asumption that has IMO no basis in how public opinion and PR realy
    work.
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 5:28:48 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:<pOCdnU8DWNdwsVvd4p2dnA@comcast.com>...
    > Richard Brown wrote:
    >
    > > My point was that they all used to exude that sort of moral
    > > superiority.
    >
    > Really. How many of them took to the streets as self-appointed defenders of
    > Truth, Justice and the American Way?

    Until recently that was pretty much what anyone who ran for office
    did. True they
    didn't go out engaging in individual vigilantism, but they did "clean
    up their
    communities," or very literally "fight for right" in a war or often
    both. Also cops do
    that every day and no one thinks they have any moral superiority (yes
    I know cops
    have to go through the academy and get hired to do the job, but it's
    the individual
    officer who decides to pursue that career on his own initiative). To
    me the only
    difference between a cop and a super hero is the super hero's figures
    their powers
    mean "we don' need no steenkin bodges."

    >By simply doing what they do,
    > superheores declare themselves better than other people.
    >

    They may think they are better than other people, that doesn't mean
    they will be
    perceived that way by the general public any more than cops are.
    Remember that
    the view of these characters you get from the comics is a insiders
    view of their
    world, the average man on the street doesn't know Batman has a strong
    ethical code
    and probably just devoutly hopes that Gordon isn't a fool for trusting
    him.

    > > Profesional atheletes, politicians and other celebreties
    > > used to be held up as examples to young people, they aren't any more,
    > > quite the oposite in fact.
    >
    > For the most part, they never asked to be.
    >

    They didn't have to ask the mere fact of them being in the public
    spotlight makes
    them an example. If they weren't advertisers wouldn't shell out the
    big bucks for
    endorsement deals.


    > > If your game world is modled on the real
    > > one then wouldn't the moral superiority of superheroes have eroded
    > > right along with everyone else?
    >
    > No, because it can't. Superheroes without moral superiority are costumed
    > vigilantes, and a Clear And Present Danger To The Community.
    >

    Actually moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    opinion. Any
    Super hero is a costumed vigilantee untill/unless he is A)deptutised
    by local law
    enforcement (officially or unofficially) or B)becomes a member of a
    super hero team
    that has an official endorsement from the local/national government or
    UN. Batman
    gets away with it because he's buddy buddy with Commissioner Gordon
    (unofficially
    deputized) and is a member of the Justice League (a government
    approved group).
    Captain America gets away with it by being a government agent and
    member of a
    approved group. The X-men aren't a government approved group and
    despite
    having the moral high ground are frequently considered public enemy
    #1.
    Of course that also opens up a debate on the difference between what
    the super
    hero thinks he's doing, what the police think he's doing, and what the
    public thinks of
    him. There have been times when Spiderman had the Bugle and it's
    readers after his
    head, while the police just wanted to question him (he had done enough
    good that
    they were looking the other way on his vigilantism) and the old web
    head was just
    trying to live up to the "great responsibility" that came with his
    powers. OTOH in
    _The Dark Knight Returns_ had an old Batman coming out of retirement
    to resume
    his crusade on crime absolutely sure of his own righteousness, but the
    new police
    commissioner declared him public enemy #1, and the people were divided
    over
    whether he was a hero or villain. The Punisher is always sure of his
    own
    righteousness, but to the police he's a murderer and to the public a
    psycho. The
    differing points of view make it impossible to find a clear cut moral
    superiority. The
    best most heroes can hope for is an official endorsement that might
    get withdrawn at
    the next election and fewer accusations of brutality than the police.

    > > Actualy I would imagine
    > > maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    > > virtualy impossible for any hero,
    >
    > You can remove the "virtually" in any universe with demonstratable psychic
    > and/or magical powers.
    >

    Depends on how common those abilities are, and how reliable they are
    perceived as
    being. If they are rare or the general public believes them to be
    unreliable secret
    ID's may be possible, until the paparazzi catch the hero with his mask
    off.

    > > leaving secret ID's the province of
    > > shadowy characters who shun the media spotlight and will as a
    > > consiquence be labled criminal vigilantee's at best and suspected mob
    > > enforcers at worst.
    >
    > You're making my point.
    >

    Really? Do Spiderman and Daredevil operate from any less of a moral
    high ground
    because they have bad press coverage? Do the Avengers and FF have any
    better
    moral high ground than the X-men because they have an official
    government
    endorsement? A government endorsement doesn't give a public
    perception of being
    on the moral high ground, it doesn't even give good press coverage,
    just ask any
    cop. Yet in the comics a government endorsement is all that's
    required to go from
    being a criminal vigilante to being "one of the good guys." And no a
    hero doesn't
    necessarily have to have a public perception of moral superiority to
    get a government
    endorsement (at least in the comics) both Spiderman and the Beast
    (from X-men)
    are reserve Avengers but that doesn't help there public image in the
    least, it doesn't
    help with the cops either unless they pull out the Avengers ID in
    which case they can
    get grudging support.

    > > Maintaining a
    > > moral superiority however I don't find believable. Of course if you
    > > wish them to do so in your game world you can, just don't be surprised
    > > when people don't buy it.
    >
    > Whether or not a super could live up to the image is problematic, of course,
    > but I certainly think it would be expected of them.

    An assumption that has IMO no basis in how public opinion and PR
    really work.
    Anonymous
    June 9, 2004 5:49:57 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<40c61a6f.49106707@news.telusplanet.net>...
    > On 8 Jun 2004 12:07:31 -0700, rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:
    >
    > >celebrities. The modern press doesn't alow anyone to exude moral
    > >superiority, draging people through the mud brings better ratings.
    >
    > At the same time however, Brittany Spears' "sexy virgin" image
    > was a real asset to her career and said career took a hit once
    > she was officially unvirgined. She had to reinvent herself into
    > Madonna Jr to keep going and she seems less comfortable in
    > that public role.
    >

    Didn't seem like she took that big a hit to me, but then I never
    folowed her career too closely. Also how much of the popularity hit
    had to do with the nature of her immage change and how much was due to
    the simple fact that her immage changed? Either way no longer being
    seen as a virgin certainly hasn't ruined her reputation or popularity.

    > >The only escape a superhero would have from this would be in a secred
    > >identity, and someone with a secret ID wouldn't be going on the sort
    > >of reality show that started this discussion. Actualy I would imagine
    > >maintaining a secred ID while being in the public eye should be
    > >virtualy impossible for any hero,
    >
    > Any hero who doesn't possess a physical transformation power.
    > It is quite believeable that Willy Wallis, a ten year old with the
    > power to turn into a mountain of adult muscle named
    > Captain Crusader will remain undetected in his secret I.D. by
    > anything short of telepathy. And since there will be a flood
    > of self-proclaimed psychics selling imaginary information to
    > tabloids, that won't even be the most plausible tip to the media.

    A phisical transformation only works till someone with a video camera
    catches you in the act. True such a video could be faked with current
    computer tech, but the simple release of the video will generate
    enough hounding of the secret ID from the press that eventualy the
    truth will come out. This is setting aside the fact that the super
    crooks won't wait for proof that the video is acurate, the'll just go
    after the secret ID because they wouldn't want to miss the chance to
    get the hero while he's vulnerable, and they don't care if they get
    some inocent kid by mistake.
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 1:30:48 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 9 Jun 2004 13:49:57 -0700, rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:


    >> Any hero who doesn't possess a physical transformation power.
    >> It is quite believeable that Willy Wallis, a ten year old with the
    >> power to turn into a mountain of adult muscle named
    >> Captain Crusader will remain undetected in his secret I.D. by
    >> anything short of telepathy. And since there will be a flood
    >> of self-proclaimed psychics selling imaginary information to
    >> tabloids, that won't even be the most plausible tip to the media.
    >
    >A phisical transformation only works till someone with a video camera
    >catches you in the act.

    Well obviously you aren't going to do in front of an audience.
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 4:55:42 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 9 Jun 2004 13:21:07 -0700, rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:

    >Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    >opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
    >A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
    >B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
    >endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
    >away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
    >(unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
    >government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
    >being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
    >aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
    >ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.

    This sounds good on paper, but in practice there are numerous heroes
    both at DC and Marvel who are not officially sanctioned but are never
    treated as vigilantes. This analysis in fact ignores the fact that in
    a world where superheroes have existed for decades, legal doctorine
    will likely have come to some sort of accomodation with that fact.
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 6:05:10 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Richard Brown wrote:

    > Untill recently that was pretty much what anyone whe ran for office
    > did. True they didn't go out engaging in individual vigalanteism, but
    > they did "clean up their comunities," or very literaly "fight for
    > right" in a war or often both.

    Riiiight, that's what those Tammany Hall crusaders were all about.

    > Also cops do that every day and no one
    > thinks they have any moral superiority (yes I know cops have to go
    > through the academy and get hired to do the job, but it's the
    > indivudual officer who decides to persue that career on his own
    > initiative). To me the only diference between a cop and a superhero
    > is the superhero's figures their powers mean "we don' need no steenkin
    > bodges."

    Police are part of the system. They work as part of an organization. They
    answer to superiors and to a civilian government. They are held to strict
    rules regarding their activities, the type of investigations they can perform
    and how and when they can use force. They are monitored for abuses of their
    power.

    None of these things are true of your average superhero.

    > They may think they are better than other people, that doesn't mean
    > they will be perceived that way by the general public any more than
    > cops are. Remember thay the view of these characters you get from the
    > comics is a insiders view of their world, the average man on the
    > street doesn't know Batman has a strong ethical code and probably just
    > devoutly hopes that Gordon isn't a fool for trusting him.

    Again, you are making my point for me. Superheroes that haven't been
    idolized aren't superheroes -- they're costumed vigilantes.

    > Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    > opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
    > A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
    > B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
    > endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
    > away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
    > (unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
    > government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
    > being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
    > aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
    > ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.

    Wayne Shaw has already adequately shot this to pieces.

    > Depends on how common those abilities are, and how reliable they are
    > percieved as being.

    If they exist, the criminals ("villains") will eventually get their hands on
    them, and it's all downhill from there.

    With or without magic/psi, secret ID's are a part of the genre that only work
    due to willing suspension of disbelief. When I GM supers, I tell my players
    straight up that if they want to maintain a secret ID they can, but they
    should be ready to have it broken by anyone who makes a serious effort to do so.

    > Really? Do Spiderman and Daredevil operate from any less of a moral
    > high groud because they have bad press coverage?

    You're conflating necessary conditions with sufficient conditions.

    > An asumption that has IMO no basis in how public opinion and PR realy
    > work.

    I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees. The scenarios you describe
    are plausible. The problem is they are not *logically necessary*, and you are
    arguing that they are. Geoff Depew's scenario was equally plausible. GMs are
    not required to possess a knockdown defense of the state of affairs they
    choose to portray.

    --
    Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman@comcast.net
    #include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

    "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
    when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 11:01:22 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Hefferman wrote:
    > With or without magic/psi, secret ID's are a part of the genre that only work
    > due to willing suspension of disbelief. When I GM supers, I tell my players
    > straight up that if they want to maintain a secret ID they can, but they
    > should be ready to have it broken by anyone who makes a serious effort to do
    > so.

    I would think that would depend on too many different factors to make a general
    statement like that.
    --
    -=[ The BlakGard ]=-
    "Somewhere there's danger;
    somewhere there's injustice,
    and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 12:51:06 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan wrote:
    >
    > When I GM supers, I tell my players straight up that if
    > they want to maintain a secret ID they can, but they
    > should be ready to have it broken by anyone who makes
    > a serious effort to do so.

    I suppose if the players are looking for a "grim", "gritty", "realistic"
    superhero game, that could be appropriate. But I think you might be
    happier playing in some other genre: the conventions of the superhero
    genre do not appear to match your preferences.

    Personally, if you told me that, I'd probably pass on your game. I get
    to play "the nail that sticks up gets hammered" every day: I look for
    something a bit lighter when I'm role-playing.

    bblackmoor
    2004-06-09
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 2:42:39 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<40c7760f.9555580@news.telusplanet.net>...
    > On 9 Jun 2004 13:49:57 -0700, rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:
    >
    >
    > >> Any hero who doesn't possess a physical transformation power.
    > >> It is quite believeable that Willy Wallis, a ten year old with the
    > >> power to turn into a mountain of adult muscle named
    > >> Captain Crusader will remain undetected in his secret I.D. by
    > >> anything short of telepathy. And since there will be a flood
    > >> of self-proclaimed psychics selling imaginary information to
    > >> tabloids, that won't even be the most plausible tip to the media.
    > >
    > >A phisical transformation only works till someone with a video camera
    > >catches you in the act.
    >
    > Well obviously you aren't going to do in front of an audience.

    Most super hero settings make it easyer to avoid telepaths than it is
    to avoid video cameras in the real world. In a big city you can
    hardly go anywhere without at least one person with a camera around.
    Then there are all the store and parking lot security cameras, busness
    owners don't want to leave any area of their property without
    survalance lest someone be asaulted on it and the owner sued for
    inadiquite security. Then there's all those handy dandy little mini
    spy cams available. I'm not saying avoiding cameras is impossible,
    just very nearly so.
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 4:34:16 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Brandon Blackmoor wrote:

    > I suppose if the players are looking for a "grim", "gritty", "realistic"
    > superhero game, that could be appropriate. But I think you might be
    > happier playing in some other genre: the conventions of the superhero
    > genre do not appear to match your preferences.

    I try not to use "genre conventions" at all, regardless of what I'm running.

    > Personally, if you told me that, I'd probably pass on your game. I get
    > to play "the nail that sticks up gets hammered" every day: I look for
    > something a bit lighter when I'm role-playing.

    I think you're extrapolating way too much from one point of data.

    --
    Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman@comcast.net
    #include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

    "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
    when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 4:50:01 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    The Black Guardian wrote:


    >>With or without magic/psi, secret ID's are a part of the genre that only work
    >>due to willing suspension of disbelief. When I GM supers, I tell my players
    >>straight up that if they want to maintain a secret ID they can, but they
    >>should be ready to have it broken by anyone who makes a serious effort to do
    >>so.
    >
    >
    > I would think that would depend on too many different factors to make a general
    > statement like that.

    No, not really. Any number of comics writers have pointed out the same
    thing. (Byrne did a real number on the idea writing himself as a character in
    Star Brand.) It's just too difficult to maintain two entirely separate lives,
    changing every facet of your physical appearance, and watching every single
    word you say in both lives, even when you are tired and angry. (Which, let's
    face it, you're going to be a lot.) Throw in people with serious
    investigative capability (government, supervillains) and there's really no
    chance you're going to pull it off.

    There are superpowers that can make it a little easier (the aforementioned
    physical transformations, etc.), and ones that make it a lot harder (most
    psi/magic, "x-ray vision", etc.)

    Look at how many people in real life manage to maintain a second life as a
    long-term proposition successfully. The number of successful (e.g.) spies and
    cheating husbands is dwarfed by the number of failures, and they don't have
    half the problems a superhero would have.

    --
    Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman@comcast.net
    #include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

    "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
    when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 5:08:10 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com> wrote in message news:<18c22373c0d5e3549eda0d86508e0eb4@news.nntpserver.com>...
    > On 9 Jun 2004 13:21:07 -0700, rbrown@myriad.com (Richard Brown) wrote:
    >
    > >Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    > >opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
    > >A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
    > >B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
    > >endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
    > >away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
    > >(unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
    > >government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
    > >being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
    > >aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
    > >ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
    >
    > This sounds good on paper, but in practice there are numerous heroes
    > both at DC and Marvel who are not officially sanctioned but are never
    > treated as vigilantes. This analysis in fact ignores the fact that in
    > a world where superheroes have existed for decades, legal doctorine
    > will likely have come to some sort of accomodation with that fact.

    You will note when I said deputised by law enforcement I stated it
    could be official or unoficial. The fact that they aren't treated as
    vigilantes is, to me at least, an indication that there is a unoficial
    sanction of there activities whether it is specificaly stated or not.
    Indeed the legal doctrine to accomideate super heroes that you assume
    would arise is a de facto unoficial government sanction of them. This
    would result in new heroes recieveing a presumptive unoficial sanction
    untill they had either obtained official sanction (by good deeds,
    shmoozing the right politicians or simply pulling the wool over
    everyones eyes) or engaged in actions that caused the unoficial
    sanction to be withdrawn.
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 5:32:52 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan wrote:
    >
    > Throw in people with serious investigative capability
    > (government, supervillains) and there's really no chance
    > you're going to pull it off.

    If you want to run your game this way, you should just disallow the
    disad up front and not waste the players' time. While you are at it, you
    should disallow all of the other "unrealistic" disads, like Reputation,
    Hunted, and so on. After all, if your character is Hunted, and there are
    people with serious investigative capability (government,
    supervillains), there's really no chance you're going to survive. The
    same thing goes for Dependent NPCs, Psych Lims, Vulnerabilities,
    Susceptibilities, and any number of other disads typical in the genre.

    Consequently, you will need to make allowance for the fact you have
    effectively eliminated most of the available disads. The least
    aggravating option (for players in such a game) may be to just give the
    players a lump sum of points with which to create characters, and ignore
    disads completely.

    bblackmoor
    2004-06-10
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 5:53:47 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Richard Brown wrote:
    >
    > I'm not saying avoiding cameras is impossible, just very nearly so.

    The Orwellian proliferation of surveillance cameras and "security
    checkpoints" has had a profound impact on many genres, superheroes among
    them.

    We are becoming the dystopia that Silver Age superheroes time-traveled
    to prevent.

    bblackmoor
    2004-06-10
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 6:14:52 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Dennis Francis Heffernan <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<2pmdnTn227d1ZFrdRVn-hw@comcast.com>...
    > Richard Brown wrote:
    >
    > > Untill recently that was pretty much what anyone whe ran for office
    > > did. True they didn't go out engaging in individual vigalanteism, but
    > > they did "clean up their comunities," or very literaly "fight for
    > > right" in a war or often both.
    >
    > Riiiight, that's what those Tammany Hall crusaders were all about.
    >

    Now you're going farther back than I was. Tammany Hall and similar
    are the reason why politicians in the middle of the 20th century had
    to project an immage of being moraly superior. People were tired of
    the coruption. Now the standards are slipping again for everyone,
    which whould include super heroes if they were real.

    > > Also cops do that every day and no one
    > > thinks they have any moral superiority (yes I know cops have to go
    > > through the academy and get hired to do the job, but it's the
    > > indivudual officer who decides to persue that career on his own
    > > initiative). To me the only diference between a cop and a superhero
    > > is the superhero's figures their powers mean "we don' need no steenkin
    > > bodges."
    >
    > Police are part of the system. They work as part of an organization. They
    > answer to superiors and to a civilian government. They are held to strict
    > rules regarding their activities, the type of investigations they can perform
    > and how and when they can use force. They are monitored for abuses of their
    > power.
    >
    > None of these things are true of your average superhero.
    >

    No the super hero just has to wory about the fact that the crooks he
    nabbed will be back on the street before dawn because the police
    couldn't hold them due to the fact that the hero didn't folow the same
    procedures the police are suposed to. A bunch of trussed up guys in
    ski masks and a pile of guns doesn't prove they were caught in the
    commision of a crime unless it was also caught on film or videotape
    (in a world with ilisionists eye wittness testimony will be even less
    reliable). If the crook starts babling a convesion as soon as the
    cops arive that's even worse because it will be thrown out cause they
    didn't have a chance to give the Miranda warning.

    > > They may think they are better than other people, that doesn't mean
    > > they will be perceived that way by the general public any more than
    > > cops are. Remember thay the view of these characters you get from the
    > > comics is a insiders view of their world, the average man on the
    > > street doesn't know Batman has a strong ethical code and probably just
    > > devoutly hopes that Gordon isn't a fool for trusting him.
    >
    > Again, you are making my point for me. Superheroes that haven't been
    > idolized aren't superheroes -- they're costumed vigilantes.
    >

    Funny I though your point was "Even shady types like Batman project a
    holier-than-thou image, even if their methods aren't entirely
    according to Hoyle. In fact, I'd argue the only real difference
    between a character like Batman (who is generally regarded as a good
    guy, if a controversial one) and a character like the Punisher (who is
    generally regarded as a bad guy, and often has to fight superheroes),
    is that the former claims to be better than the thugs he fights and
    the latter does not. (That decision is why Batman does not kill and
    the Punisher does.)" The "holier-than-thou" immage you are so
    definite that a superhero needs to project to stay a hero is often
    known only to his close asociates. Is he a super hero then only to
    those who know him well and a vigilantee to everyone else, or is it
    only important that the audience know he's beter than those he fights
    and that he's a hero to them? Either way a hero whose motives are
    known only to insiders isn't going to have them taken into acount in
    his own world. Also a holier-than-thou immage that is known isn't
    going to make a hero idolized, as your earlyer comments about Bush
    indicated such an image is more likely to breed distrust.
    So which is your point that superheroes must be Idolised to be heroes
    or that they must project a holier-than-thou immage? I've been
    disagreeing on the second, the first is a whole diferent discussion,
    and no they are not equivalent. Maddona is idolized and she's
    anything but holier-than-thou, OTOH the Pope is generaly seen as
    holier-than-thou but I don't exactly see people Idolizing him, respect
    yes but that's not the same thing.

    > > Actualy moral superiority doesn't matter, since it's a matter of
    > > opinion. Any Superhero is a costumed vilaglantee untill/unless he is
    > > A)deptutised by local law enforcement (oficialy or unoficialy) or
    > > B)becomes a member of a superhero team that has an official
    > > endorcement from the local/national government or UN. Batman gets
    > > away with it because he's buddy buddy with Comisioner Gordon
    > > (unoficialy deputised) and is a member of the Justice Leauge (a
    > > government aproved group). Captain America get's away with it by
    > > being a government agent and member of a aproved group. The X-men
    > > aren't a government aproved group and despite having the moral high
    > > ground are frequently considered public enemy #1.
    >
    > Wayne Shaw has already adequately shot this to pieces.
    >
    And evidently neither one of you read too closely or gave it much
    thought. Read my repy to Wayne.

    > > Depends on how common those abilities are, and how reliable they are
    > > percieved as being.
    >
    > If they exist, the criminals ("villains") will eventually get their hands on
    > them, and it's all downhill from there.
    >

    Again it depends on how reliable such abilities are percieved as
    being. If there are 50 phonies for every real psycic around the
    vilans probably won't bother trying to get there hands on one.


    >
    > > Really? Do Spiderman and Daredevil operate from any less of a moral
    > > high groud because they have bad press coverage?
    >
    > You're conflating necessary conditions with sufficient conditions.
    >

    and you aren't keeping your arguments strait. Which is it? Are they
    costumed vigilantees because they aren't idolized by the public or
    they are heroes because they stand on the moral high ground?

    > > An asumption that has IMO no basis in how public opinion and PR realy
    > > work.
    >
    > I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees. The scenarios you describe
    > are plausible. The problem is they are not *logically necessary*, and you are
    > arguing that they are. Geoff Depew's scenario was equally plausible. GMs are
    > not required to possess a knockdown defense of the state of affairs they
    > choose to portray.

    My scenarios are not only plausable but probable based on any
    realistic extrapolation of human nature from the real world. Also I
    never asked for a knockdown defense I merly wanted a reason to suspend
    disbelief, which GM's need to do. All the excuses offered so far have
    made that harder instead of easyer.
    Anonymous
    June 10, 2004 8:06:27 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Brandon Blackmoor wrote:

    > If you want to run your game this way, you should just disallow the
    > disad up front and not waste the players' time.

    Here's what I wrote in my "player's guide" for the campaign's last
    incarnation. Some of this was cribbed but I've lost track of the attributions.

    >> Perhaps the oldest cliche in comic books is the idea that supers would hide
    >> themselves behind masks and mystery, adopting "secret identities". The usual
    >> reason for this is that the super feels that criminals would strike at his
    >> loved ones if they knew who the super was. (Police officers, crusading DA's
    >> and judges just have to take their chances, it seems.)
    >>
    >> Unfortunately, secret identities don't work when the idea is approached
    >> realistically. John Byrne, writing himself as a character in Star Brand,
    >> pointed out to the title character that the whole idea behind a "secret
    >> identity" depends on the reader's suspension of disbelief, then went into all
    >> the different clues he could garner from Star Brand's costume alone. In an
    >> issue of Spectacular Spider-Man, three college students almost break
    >> Spider-Man's secret ID without even meaning to, by observing his movements
    >> through the city. Byrne strikes again in issue #2 of the new Superman,
    >> wherein a casual investigation by Lex Luthor's goons provides a computer with
    >> enough data to conclude that Superman is Clark Kent. (Luthor, of course,
    >> rejects the idea that any man with Superman's powers would ever hide them in
    >> such a way, and fires the head of the project.) Superman's identity is
    >> actually meaningless when considering the usual reason -- everyone knows that
    >> Superman is friends with all of Kent's friends, so there's really no point.
    >>
    >> If, despite this, you wish for your character to maintain a secret identity,
    >> you'll need a few things. You'll need a costume that alters the general
    >> shape of your body -- any suit of body armor will do this job well enough,
    >> but a metacloth costume won't; it will need extra padding. You'll need a mask
    >> that covers your eyes completely -- again, the helmet from any suit of body
    >> armor will do, but a metamorphic costume won't. You'll need to add shaded or
    >> mirrored glasses or goggles, which might be a problem depending on how your
    >> powers work. You'll need a voice modulator -- easy enough to buy or build.
    >> And finally, you'll have to consider your movements in your super identity
    >> very carefully. You can't allow your super identity to become connected with
    >> your loved ones, or indeed with anyone, or you will have undermined your
    >> purpose. You can't use your home as a base of operations -- in fact, you
    >> can't use any place near your home for such a base. And after all that work,
    >> your secret will still fall to the first interested party with access to a
    >> reasonably-powerful Esper or Mage.
    >>
    >> Supers with Morph abilities or Suits will have less trouble with the physical
    >> aspects of maintaining a secret identity, but they'll still have to watch
    >> what they do and say.
    >>
    >> Legally, there is no law against using a "codename" -- of course, performers
    >> have used stage names for years. S.A.B.R.E. will not reveal the identites of
    >> any licensed or enlisted super without a court order. The same goes for
    >> private security firms. However, it is not legal for a super to appear
    >> before a petit jury in his "super" identity. If you're going to testify, the
    >> mask has to come off. If you face criminal charges, you may be able to avoid
    >> unmasking until after a grand jury has handed down an indictment, but after
    >> that S.A.B.R.E. will be forced to turn over its file on you.
    >>
    >> In game terms, a secret identity is covered by the Secret disadvantage. It
    >> is worth -10 points, or -20 if the super has Status 3 or better in his
    >> mundane identity, as the media will watch his every move anyway.

    I think I played it pretty straight, and I didn't get any complaints from the
    players on the issue. They all chose to operate with masks and codenames, but
    eschewed an actual "secret identity" and none of them took the disad. Which
    is what I wanted. I did not forbid the disad entirely because it would have
    been possible for a character to at least try to maintain a secret ID, and it
    would not have been unduly disruptive to the campaign. I simply made it clear
    that it would likely be more trouble than it was worth.

    > While you are at it, you
    > should disallow all of the other "unrealistic" disads, like Reputation,
    > Hunted, and so on. After all, if your character is Hunted, and there are
    > people with serious investigative capability (government,
    > supervillains), there's really no chance you're going to survive.

    If you have enemies who want you dead that badly, have nothing else on their
    plate and are willing to devote their resources to the effort, then yes, you
    are probably toast. While I didn't have an explicit guide section on it
    (because it never came up), I would not have allowed someone to take a Hunted
    at that level. It's disruptive to the campaign -- basically, the campaign
    would have to revolve around the PC evading his hunters, requiring a
    "travelling angel" format. To me, a Hunted means there is someone with a
    grudge against the PC who will take shots at him when the opportunity presents
    itself.

    I don't see Reputation as being problematic at all.

    > The
    > same thing goes for Dependent NPCs, Psych Lims, Vulnerabilities,
    > Susceptibilities, and any number of other disads typical in the genre.

    Again, you are going to have to elaborate, because I don't see the problems
    here. Particularly with Dependents -- frankly, if a player approached me with
    a character concept that did not include a sufficient number of Dependents,
    Contacts and other such "supporting cast members", I'd add them myself.

    > Consequently, you will need to make allowance for the fact you have
    > effectively eliminated most of the available disads. The least
    > aggravating option (for players in such a game) may be to just give the
    > players a lump sum of points with which to create characters, and ignore
    > disads completely.

    Only a perfect person has no disadvantages, in RPG terms, and that human
    being does not exist, even in comics.

    Sorry, but I just do not see where this attitude is coming from.

    --
    Dennis F. Heffernan CoH: Venture (Virtue) hefferman@comcast.net
    #include <disclaim.h> MS Messenger: Venture

    "And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
    when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
    !