[Hero 5th] Strength, Martial Arts, and Campaign Limits

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

All,

I'm wondering what other GMs do about campaign limits (if you have
any; if not, the question may not apply to you) when it somes to
Strength?

For example, if there is a campaign limit of 50 active points, and I
have a character with 50 strength, they have met the campaign limit.
However, if they take martial arts, they can pick up an offensive
strike for +4d6 damage, or certainly at least +2d6 damage with combat
bonuses (martial strike).

However, a character with some non-strength mechanism for their is
hard capped at 10d6 for a straight up effect of 50 active points.
That'd be 10d6 vs 14d6 in favor of Ninja Hulk.

What do you do to even these things out? Or do you just let it fly?

Lewis
18 answers Last reply
More about hero strength martial arts campaign limits
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Lewis W Beard wrote:
    >
    > What do you do to even these things out? Or do
    > you just let it fly?

    I'm not sure I understand the question. If the GM has said that the
    maximum [non-pushed, non-haymaker, etc.] attack is 50 points or 10d6 (or
    its equivalent in other Powers), that's what the limit is. 14d6,
    regardless of where the dice come from [Stength, Martial Arts, or a
    combination of both], exceeds that limit. Q.E.D.

    bblackmoor
    2004-06-11
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 11 Jun 2004 13:41:05 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

    >All,
    >
    >I'm wondering what other GMs do about campaign limits (if you have
    >any; if not, the question may not apply to you) when it somes to
    >Strength?
    >
    >For example, if there is a campaign limit of 50 active points, and I
    >have a character with 50 strength, they have met the campaign limit.
    >However, if they take martial arts, they can pick up an offensive
    >strike for +4d6 damage, or certainly at least +2d6 damage with combat
    >bonuses (martial strike).
    >
    >However, a character with some non-strength mechanism for their is
    >hard capped at 10d6 for a straight up effect of 50 active points.
    >That'd be 10d6 vs 14d6 in favor of Ninja Hulk.
    >
    >What do you do to even these things out? Or do you just let it fly?

    I use a version of the CTNM Rule of X rather than active point limits,
    but what I did was this: martial DCs and the first two dice of martial
    manuevers count against the damage part of the RoX. So if you want to
    have a damage component of 12 on your Rox, and want martial strike,
    you can't have more than a 50 Strength.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    "Lewis W Beard" <lewis@lwb.org> wrote in message
    news:c581d835.0406111241.5db6dac4@posting.google.com...
    >
    > What do you do to even these things out? Or do you just let it fly?


    When building a hero I try to keep all aspects of my hero that I paid points
    for within the campaign limit.

    If I buy an advantage on strength that a Hero can use as a Brick Trick, I
    only buy enough Strength so that the effective Active Points are
    within the limit: Armor Piercing bought as naked advantage for 50 Strength
    is effectively 75 Active Points when used in combat. If my Brick had an
    80 Str, I'd only buy the advantage for 50 of it (in an 80 limit campaign)

    Also I wouldn't give the Brick any Martial Maneuvers that would add more
    damage to his Strength, unless his Strength was lower than the campaign
    limit.

    and, any basic maneuver everyone has for free is pretty much ignorable for
    campaign limits because it balances out.

    Finally, if his damage is pretty much maximized, I make sure his OCV is on
    the low end. Same thing goes for his Defenses and DCV.

    -----------
    Glacier
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    In article <c581d835.0406111241.5db6dac4@posting.google.com>,
    lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

    > For example, if there is a campaign limit of 50 active points, and I
    > have a character with 50 strength, they have met the campaign limit.
    > However, if they take martial arts, they can pick up an offensive
    > strike for +4d6 damage, or certainly at least +2d6 damage with combat
    > bonuses (martial strike).
    >
    > However, a character with some non-strength mechanism for their is
    > hard capped at 10d6 for a straight up effect of 50 active points.
    > That'd be 10d6 vs 14d6 in favor of Ninja Hulk.
    >
    > What do you do to even these things out? Or do you just let it fly?

    I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    need to be toned down.

    --
    Joe Claffey | "Make no small plans."
    jrc3@cox.net | -- Daniel Burnham
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Indiana Joe wrote:

    > I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    > DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    > the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    > need to be toned down.

    I don't consider extra DCs (as much of) a problem if the come with
    a corresponding penalty. It's a parallel to free combat manuevers,
    which increase effective DC but reduce OCV/reduce DCV/take and extra
    segment/leave the attacker open to martial throw/whatever.


    Robert Huff
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Indiana,

    > I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    > DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    > the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    > need to be toned down.

    My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I
    always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?

    Lewis
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

    >Indiana,
    >
    >> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >> need to be toned down.

    >My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I
    >always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    >ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    >maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?
    >Lewis

    One should never feel awkward as a GM for asking (nay, demanding) that
    players conform to the campaign limits in effect.

    On the other hand, as a player one should feel awkward indeed in
    asking to violate those rules.

    The laws of the comic book universe don't prevent one from learning
    martial arts - but if one is already at a campaign limit, then the
    campaign limit rules DO prevent it - or require a solution such as you
    mention above, letting them learn the maneuvers while still capping
    the damage.

    However, if the campaign has been running a while and people are
    looking to expand into new areas that would up their DCs, it's
    certainly reasonable to discuss whether the campaign limits could be
    modified.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

    >Indiana,
    >
    >> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >> need to be toned down.
    >
    >My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >decide to take martial arts?

    Uh...you do realise that caps are normally only on starting designs,
    right?
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:16:11 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
    Johnston) wrote:

    >On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:
    >
    >>Indiana,
    >>
    >>> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >>> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >>> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >>> need to be toned down.
    >>
    >>My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >>pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >>decide to take martial arts?

    >Uh...you do realise that caps are normally only on starting designs,
    >right?

    Perhaps in the campaigns that you are used to - but in the campaigns
    I've played in, it's generally an absolute. The OP apparently plays
    in campaigns similar to those I'm used to.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    In article <40d275b2.31181171@news.west.earthlink.net>,
    quester@infionline.net (Harold Groot) wrote:

    > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:16:11 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
    > Johnston) wrote:
    >
    > >On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:
    > >
    > >>Indiana,
    > >>
    > >>> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    > >>> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    > >>> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    > >>> need to be toned down.
    > >>
    > >>My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    > >>pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    > >>decide to take martial arts?
    >
    > >Uh...you do realise that caps are normally only on starting designs,
    > >right?
    >
    > Perhaps in the campaigns that you are used to - but in the campaigns
    > I've played in, it's generally an absolute. The OP apparently plays
    > in campaigns similar to those I'm used to.
    >

    I generally leave them on for a while as well. If the group consensus
    is to raise them, they get raised. Of course, this means their opponents
    can get a boost in power as well...

    --
    Joe Claffey | "Make no small plans."
    jrc3@cox.net | -- Daniel Burnham
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    David,

    > Uh...you do realise that caps are normally only on starting designs,
    > right?

    I generally set a cap at the start, and an ultimate campaign cap.
    Usually 50 active points in the beginning, and 65 - 75 on the top end,
    depending on the campaign.

    Thanks to everyone for the responses.

    Lewis
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

    >Indiana,
    >
    >> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >> need to be toned down.
    >
    >My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I

    The laws of the universe apparently prevent them from buying more
    combat levels, so why not?

    >always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    >ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    >maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?

    Really, _any_ campaign limit is arbitrary; why is this one worse than
    any other?
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:16:11 GMT, rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David
    Johnston) wrote:

    >On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:
    >
    >>Indiana,
    >>
    >>> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >>> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >>> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >>> need to be toned down.
    >>
    >>My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >>pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >>decide to take martial arts?
    >
    >Uh...you do realise that caps are normally only on starting designs,
    >right?

    Not in my experience they aren't.
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:57:17 GMT, quester@infionline.net (Harold
    Groot) wrote:

    >>Uh...you do realise that caps are normally only on starting designs,
    >>right?
    >
    >Perhaps in the campaigns that you are used to - but in the campaigns
    >I've played in, it's generally an absolute. The OP apparently plays
    >in campaigns similar to those I'm used to.

    I think this is in fact, more common than he realizes (though in some
    campaigns it's also periodically adjusted upwards if the GM is
    prepared to move things up a notch).
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Well the other solution is the one I've seen applied by most Gms.
    Point limits, damage caps etc are for character creation - everything
    can grow beyond those points once play begins, they are simply
    construction limits for new characters.

    Considering that the folks at HERO generally don't follow their own
    rules on this (a quick flip thru the Fantasy Grimoire will show this
    since they have spells at more than double the Active point limits as
    the standard) one must assume that this is the intent under the
    system.


    On 17 Jun 2004 12:06:43 -0700, lewis@lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

    >Indiana,
    >
    >> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >> need to be toned down.
    >
    >My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I
    >always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    >ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    >maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?
    >
    >Lewis

    --------------------------------------------------------
    Joseph Teller joeteller@mindspring.com
    www.fantasylibrary.com
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    There are lots of different options and it darned near impossible to cover
    them without taking way more time. Here's something you could consider...

    As the gamemaster, you have already established that the campaign maximum is
    10 DC or 50 active points in Attack power. Martial Arts adds to that maximum
    damage and if the player took any sort of Martial strike, it would add . You
    may either choose to raise your campaign maximum, and if the campaign has
    been going for a while, this would be realistic and true to campaign growth.
    If not, you may want to have the player in question just purchase levels
    with Hand to Hand and define this as "Martial Arts".Also, make sure that
    this is not a knee-jerk maneuver by a player to gain unfair advantage over
    the other PC's and that the player has an in-character justification for
    this change. Make him (or her) purchase the KS for the martial art first and
    then space out how the maneuvers are purchased (it shouldn't happen
    overnight, after all).

    Again, this is just a suggestion, not knowing how you've set up your
    campaign or any specific information.


    "Lewis W Beard" <lewis@lwb.org> wrote in message
    news:c581d835.0406171106.65fcecab@posting.google.com...
    > Indiana,
    >
    >> I usually give a cap on Damage Classes. 50 STR gives the character a 10
    >> DC attack, and the Offensive Strike adds 4 DC for a total of 14 DC. If
    >> the cap was 12 DC (fairly common for a supers game), the character would
    >> need to be toned down.
    >
    > My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    > pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    > decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I
    > always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    > ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    > maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?
    >
    > Lewis
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    Piggybacking, because Lewis' post never reached my server.

    > "Lewis W Beard" <lewis@lwb.org> wrote in message

    >>My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >>pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >>decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I
    >>always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    >>ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    >>maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?

    I think the problem is that the Martial Arts damage feels,
    to some (at least me), as if it is the kind of damage bonus
    you get for being able to precisely target vulnerable spots.
    As such, it simply shouldn't stack with damage caused by
    brute strength.

    I'm not an expert on the Hero system, but it seems to me
    that a general solution is to seperate damage into two
    types, which do not stack - a character simply uses the
    highest type. One type is force-based, as in how hard you
    can hit. The other type is precision-based, as in how well
    you can place your attacks.

    --
    Peter Knutsen
    sagatafl.org
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

    On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:38:34 +0100, Peter Knutsen
    <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

    >
    >Piggybacking, because Lewis' post never reached my server.
    >
    >> "Lewis W Beard" <lewis@lwb.org> wrote in message
    >
    >>>My problem with this is, what if a character is at the cap and its
    >>>pure Strength, and they've been floating there for some time, and they
    >>>decide to take martial arts? Do the laws of the universe prevent it? I
    >>>always feel awkward as both a GM and a player at this stage. Do you
    >>>ask the player to just not do it? Or do you let them take the
    >>>maneuvers and use them but still cap the damage?
    >
    >I think the problem is that the Martial Arts damage feels,
    >to some (at least me), as if it is the kind of damage bonus
    >you get for being able to precisely target vulnerable spots.
    >As such, it simply shouldn't stack with damage caused by
    >brute strength.

    Hitting a vulnerable point _hard_ is almost always going to do more
    damage than just jabbing it. I mean as long as we aren't talking
    about the kind of imaginary acupressure point best represented by an
    NND.
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