[Fast Hero] Endurance

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Faster Hero (endurance)

To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:

Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action, a
character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever he wants.
If the character spends more than his Rec value in endurance, he must pay
for the additional End cost from Stun.

Example: Bob the Hero has an 8d6 Energy Blast and a 10 Rec. Bob could use
his EB at full power every turn without ever tiring. He also has a 30
point force field. If he wants to use both powers at maximum (total of
14 End cost) he will have to pay Stun to make up the difference.

Suggestion 1: Remove the Str component from base Rec, as this gives bricks
an unfair advantage, and make the base Rec equal to Con/5.


Option 1:
With a constant supply of End, most heroes will either increase Rec or buy
reduced End until they never have to worry about end costs for the
character (except for pushing). This may be ok for your campaign.

If you want to retain fatigue as a feature, then after each segment 12, all
characters (currently awake) reduce their Rec attribute by 1 point. A
character can take a full action to recover 1 point of lost Rec (which
replaces the action to recover End).

This means that Bob (from the example above) has a full 10 Rec for the
first 12 segments, then it drops to a Rec of 9 for the next 12 segments,
then 8, and so on.


Option 2 (harsh):
As option 1 above, but have the characters' Rec drop every 6 segments.


Option 3 (extra harsh):
Rec decreases by 1 every segment that a character takes an action. This
duplicates the Hero mechanics whereby a faster character spends a lot more
End than a slower one. Don't reduce the character's Rec if they are only
taking a half-move (or less) and characters can still take a full action to
recover 1 point of lost Rec.

This is almost as much bookkeeping as keeping track of End, but it can
result in much faster fights (or much slower, if players are unwilling to
spend the Stun).

JSwing

 

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JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
news:Xns95B661BEF68C9threeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:

> Faster Hero (endurance)
>
> To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>
> Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action, a
> character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever he
> wants. If the character spends more than his Rec value in endurance,
> he must pay for the additional End cost from Stun.

That would make characters profoundly more expensive, and seriously screw
up balance between different kinds of characters.

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

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JSwing wrote:
> Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action,
> a character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever
> he wants. If the character spends more than his Rec value in endurance,
> he must pay for the additional End cost from Stun.

While this does remove bookkeeping, it also removes one of the
disadvantages of having high SPD: That if you have high SPD, you also
need either to have your main powers bought at Reduced/No END Cost or
else buy lots of END and REC. This is important for game balance - high
SPD is enough of an advantage as it is.

Of course, a simple remedy for this is to let the END limit per phase be
REC*4/SPD, which would give the same equalizing effect. That, or let the
cost of the END limit be a multiple of SPD.

- Klaus

 

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No 33 Secretary <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote in
news:Xns95B66E04418AEtaustinhyperbookscom@216.168.3.50:

> JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
> news:Xns95B661BEF68C9threeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:
>
>> Faster Hero (endurance)
>>
>> To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>>
>> Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action, a
>> character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever he
>> wants. If the character spends more than his Rec value in endurance,
>> he must pay for the additional End cost from Stun.
>
> That would make characters profoundly more expensive, and seriously
> screw up balance between different kinds of characters.
>

I don't know about profoundly. I haven't played Hero in a while, but I
seem to recall most of our characters had a Recovery equal to approximately
what they would spend in a phase.

I concede that this does seriously change the mechanics of End and Stun,
and I haven't double checked to see how it would affect all of the fine
details of some sample characters.

Looking at Howler (4th ed):

Hmm. Superhero default is for 1 end cost per 10 active points - we always
played 1 per 5 active points. I'll use the active / 10 for the moment,
since she should be balanced for that.

Rec 10
End 46
Spd 5

costing 5 end each:
10d6 EB
50 pt force field (20/20 Hardened)
25" flight

costing 12 end:
3d6 flash (w/ several mods)

As it stands, Howler burns through End pretty fast. Not a hard combat
monkey.

Depdending on her opponents, she might use less of her force field, but she
probably wants both that and her EB each phase. She has a hard time time
making it to segment 12 and will likely run out by the middle of the second
turn even if she conserves energy. The flash has potential, but it burns a
lot of End.


Revised using my suggestion:
Rec 7 (since Str no longer contributes)
End N/A
Spd 5
Stun 29

Powers and End cost is the same.

Now she can use any single power (except the flash) endlessly without a
problem. Using EB and force field together means she has to burn some Stun
each phase, unless she can play very conservatively.

Erm. Just noticed that the 4th edition converts stun to End at 1d6 Stun
damage to 2 End - this is too high. Make it 1:1 for the moment (I seem to
recall earlier editions were 1 stun = 2 end, but 1:1 is easier at the
moment).

Which means she burns 3 stun per phase if she wants to use her full EB and
full force field. Then 4 stun per phase for the next turn. Even without
taking damage she'll pass out in about one and a half full turns. If she
is under attack, or uses her flash power a lot, she'll drop sooner.


So on a casual examination of a sample of 1, they don't look much
different. The fight will end sooner, but not a lot sooner with the
suggested method.

The curve is a bit harsher. It goes from tireless activity to damaging
activity pretty fast, but since there are no penalties to losing stun I'm
not how much of a problem this would be.

A character that gets hit by a strong attack will really get the fight
knocked out of them, which might not be acceptable for your play style.

One problem I see is players who are reluctant to spend stun. Which is
more of a mindset: (stun = pain = bad) instead of (stun = resource).


Oh, and it might mess up the balance between character types, like you
suggested - this was only a sample of one, after all.

Is there something else I'm missing?

JSwing

 

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JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
news:Xns95B6A0F9395EDthreeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:

> No 33 Secretary <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote in
> news:Xns95B66E04418AEtaustinhyperbookscom@216.168.3.50:
>
>> JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
>> news:Xns95B661BEF68C9threeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:
>>
>>> Faster Hero (endurance)
>>>
>>> To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>>>
>>> Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action,
>>> a character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever
>>> he wants. If the character spends more than his Rec value in
>>> endurance, he must pay for the additional End cost from Stun.
>>
>> That would make characters profoundly more expensive, and seriously
>> screw up balance between different kinds of characters.
>>
>
> I don't know about profoundly. I haven't played Hero in a while, but
> I seem to recall most of our characters had a Recovery equal to
> approximately what they would spend in a phase.
>
> I concede that this does seriously change the mechanics of End and
> Stun, and I haven't double checked to see how it would affect all of
> the fine details of some sample characters.

It makes it utterly impossible to have a reserve of endurance, so that a
character can operate a full ability for a while before tiring. Seems
rather restrictive to eliminate by fiat entire categories of character
concept.

And it really doesn't reduce recordkeeping that much.

But then, I'm still trying to figure out why people think there's too much
recordkeeping in the first place.

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:34:27 -0000, JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please>
wrote:

>Faster Hero (endurance)
>
>To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>
>Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action, a
>character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever he wants.
>If the character spends more than his Rec value in endurance, he must pay
>for the additional End cost from Stun.

How is that slower than tracking end used, and once per turn adding a
recovery (or per recovery action)?

>
>Suggestion 1: Remove the Str component from base Rec, as this gives bricks
>an unfair advantage, and make the base Rec equal to Con/5.

That's not a rule to speed things up--thats a change to suit a
particular opinion.


Considering the down time a player has after his action, end or stun
tracking isn't ttoo much of a burden. Stick to simplifying damage
rolls, knockback, and you've sped HERO up enough to make anyone short
of full blown ADHD satisfied.
incrdbil

 

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No 33 Secretary <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote in
news:Xns95B76A3CD2136taustinhyperbookscom@216.168.3.50:

> JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
> news:Xns95B6A0F9395EDthreeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:
>
>> No 33 Secretary <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote in
>> news:Xns95B66E04418AEtaustinhyperbookscom@216.168.3.50:
>>
>>> JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
>>> news:Xns95B661BEF68C9threeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:
>>>
>>>> Faster Hero (endurance)
>>>>
>>>> To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>>>>
>>>> Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action,
>>>> a character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever
>>>> he wants. If the character spends more than his Rec value in
>>>> endurance, he must pay for the additional End cost from Stun.
>>>
>>> That would make characters profoundly more expensive, and seriously
>>> screw up balance between different kinds of characters.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about profoundly. I haven't played Hero in a while, but
>> I seem to recall most of our characters had a Recovery equal to
>> approximately what they would spend in a phase.
>>
>> I concede that this does seriously change the mechanics of End and
>> Stun, and I haven't double checked to see how it would affect all of
>> the fine details of some sample characters.
>
> It makes it utterly impossible to have a reserve of endurance, so that
> a character can operate a full ability for a while before tiring.
> Seems rather restrictive to eliminate by fiat entire categories of
> character concept.

Um, no? It just makes tiring = stun damage instead of a separate End
resevoir. The player is faced with the same decisions: burn stun or
operate at reduced power, only they are given this choice much earlier in a
contest.

As I recall, there is no penalty to actions for suffering stun damage. So
this is instead of 'out of endurance' the character becomes 'out of stun'.
It would be more precise to say that this doesn't distinguish tired from
knocked out.


> And it really doesn't reduce recordkeeping that much.

Depending on the character design, it may eliminate it entirely, but for
the general case you are correct. End won't go up or down (and thus
doesn't need to be tracked), but Rec can go down, though it only increments
and decrements by 1, and generally only during the post-segment-12
activities.


> But then, I'm still trying to figure out why people think there's too
> much recordkeeping in the first place.

Well the original thread was a gamer complaining about Hero being slow, and
asking for ways to speed things up. Actually a better answer to his direct
problem would be to see if Hero was really the right game for his group, or
whether it was just a learning curve issue, and so forth.

But I was more interested in the design challenge of making Hero faster. I
don't think Hero is broken or needs to be fixed in any way. Others have
already posted ideas on how to roll dice faster, I was interested in system
tinkering to make it play faster.

Recordkeeping takes time during a combat turn, so in theory reducing record
keeping could make gameplay faster.

Let me conclude by saying I get it: you like Hero the way it is and this
idea would make too much of a change to the system. So I concede that this
won't really work very well.

JSwing

 

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incrdbil@spammebabyflinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote in
news:41b7a6a6.76137015@usenet.flinthills.com:

> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:34:27 -0000, JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please>
> wrote:
>
>>Faster Hero (endurance)
>>
>>To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>>
>>Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each action, a
>>character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on whatever he
>>wants. If the character spends more than his Rec value in endurance,
>>he must pay for the additional End cost from Stun.
>
> How is that slower than tracking end used, and once per turn adding a
> recovery (or per recovery action)?

Assuming your question was 'How is this faster...':

The player doesn't have to subtract End used from a resevoir. If the End
the player spends during the turn is less than Rec (a simple comparison
rather than subtraction) then his End concerns are over.

It's also possible for the player to start from the Rec value and allocate
to his actions rather than start from the actions and then do the math to
arrive at End spent.

But assuming tha the player starts from the actions, totals the End cost,
subtracts the Rec value, and then applies that to stun, you are correct -
it's no faster than subtracting the End and then adding the Rec back in.


>>
>>Suggestion 1: Remove the Str component from base Rec, as this gives
>>bricks an unfair advantage, and make the base Rec equal to Con/5.
>
> That's not a rule to speed things up--thats a change to suit a
> particular opinion.
>

It just struck me as I was typing this that you might think this suggestion
disconnected from the 'Rec as constant End resevoir' idea. it is intended
to be a part of that, not a stand-alone rule.

If you understood that I meant it as part of using Rec instead of End, and
still disagree then here is a reponse to that objection:

End is based on Con only. Rec, in the current rules, is used far less
frequently - during the post-phase-12 activities and if the player takes a
recovery action. By eliminating End and relying on Rec only, the Rec
attribute becomes more directly connected to Endurance expenditures.

A brick expends in End equal to what his Str contributes to Rec, so this
would makes bricks tireless by default, which is not how the game is today.
So I suggest removing the Str component to allow bricks to tire out like
the other character types.


> Considering the down time a player has after his action, end or stun
> tracking isn't ttoo much of a burden. Stick to simplifying damage
> rolls, knockback, and you've sped HERO up enough to make anyone short
> of full blown ADHD satisfied.

A fair criticism. I concede that this is a bad idea.

JSwing

 

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JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
news:Xns95B9B7F061FD5threeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:

> No 33 Secretary <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote in
> news:Xns95B76A3CD2136taustinhyperbookscom@216.168.3.50:
>
>> JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
>> news:Xns95B6A0F9395EDthreeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:
>>
>>> No 33 Secretary <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote in
>>> news:Xns95B66E04418AEtaustinhyperbookscom@216.168.3.50:
>>>
>>>> JSwing <JSwing@no.spam.please> wrote in
>>>> news:Xns95B661BEF68C9threeMusketeers@216.168.3.50:
>>>>
>>>>> Faster Hero (endurance)
>>>>>
>>>>> To eliminate the slow bookkeeping that END requires:
>>>>>
>>>>> Replace END as a reservoir with a constant Rec value. Each
>>>>> action, a character has Rec points of Endurance to spend freely on
>>>>> whatever he wants. If the character spends more than his Rec
>>>>> value in endurance, he must pay for the additional End cost from
>>>>> Stun.
>>>>
>>>> That would make characters profoundly more expensive, and seriously
>>>> screw up balance between different kinds of characters.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about profoundly. I haven't played Hero in a while,
>>> but I seem to recall most of our characters had a Recovery equal to
>>> approximately what they would spend in a phase.
>>>
>>> I concede that this does seriously change the mechanics of End and
>>> Stun, and I haven't double checked to see how it would affect all of
>>> the fine details of some sample characters.
>>
>> It makes it utterly impossible to have a reserve of endurance, so
>> that a character can operate a full ability for a while before
>> tiring. Seems rather restrictive to eliminate by fiat entire
>> categories of character concept.
>
> Um, no? It just makes tiring = stun damage instead of a separate End
> resevoir.

That's what I said. Nothing wrong with that - many games systems work
basically the same way. But it's a fundamental change to the game
mechanics.
>
>> But then, I'm still trying to figure out why people think there's too
>> much recordkeeping in the first place.
>
> Well the original thread was a gamer complaining about Hero being
> slow, and asking for ways to speed things up.

Speed responds well to a firm hand on the part of the GM. The actual play
isn't slow. What's slow is players trying to add up numbers in their head
to figure various combat values, or making love to their dice for half an
hour before rolling them. In the first case, it's usually the same numbers
every time, so a good slap to the back of the head will often cause them to
start making notes. In the second case, a stop watch will really improve
play. 15 second limit, and if you miss it, you hold until you get your head
out of your ass.

>Actually a better
> answer to his direct problem would be to see if Hero was really the
> right game for his group, or whether it was just a learning curve
> issue, and so forth.

Indeed. It's a game that requires the GM and at least one player to know
the mechanics *very* well, or it will be a disaster.
>
> But I was more interested in the design challenge of making Hero
> faster. I don't think Hero is broken or needs to be fixed in any way.
> Others have already posted ideas on how to roll dice faster, I was
> interested in system tinkering to make it play faster.

My experience (which goes back to 2nd edition) is that the way to make it
faster is to make the players more proficient at it.
>
> Recordkeeping takes time during a combat turn, so in theory reducing
> record keeping could make gameplay faster.

If you slap the players upside the head often enough, you'll find they do
their recordkeeping while it's someone *else's* phase, instead of delaying
the game for everyone. There's no reason to do it during your own phase.
>
> Let me conclude by saying I get it: you like Hero the way it is and
> this idea would make too much of a change to the system. So I concede
> that this won't really work very well.
>
And there's nothing at all wrong with using Hero as a basis for creating
what is basically your own custom game, if that's what you and your players
enjoy.

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

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JSwing wrote:
>> Well the original thread was a gamer complaining about Hero being
>> slow, and asking for ways to speed things up.

No 33 Secretary wrote:
> Speed responds well to a firm hand on the part of the GM. The actual
> play isn't slow. What's slow is players trying to add up numbers in
> their head to figure various combat values, or [wasting time].

The major slowdowns I experienced when I last played HERO mostly had
other causes:

* adding up large damage/effect rolls
* figuring out whose turn it was
* bookkeeping for BODY, STUN, END, and adjustment powers

Attack rolls were a bit of a problem too, since HERO's 11+OCV-DCV system
is a bit clunky. We didn't notice it at the time, because we were
accustomed to AD&D's equally clunky THAC0 system. However, now I'm
spoiled by D&D3's subtraction-free approach, so relatively speaking this
also becomes a minor problem.

However, I'm mostly worried about the three major issues above. I've
worked out a situation for damage/effect rolls, and I think I may be
able to speed up turn-switching with a little extra prep. I'm still
worried about the bookkeeping angle, though. All the different kinds of
"hit points" and their different recovery rates are a pain. In my
experience, it's slow and error-prone.

>> Actually a better answer to his direct problem would be to see if
>> Hero was really the right game for his group, or whether it was just
>> a learning curve issue, and so forth.

Unfamiliarity with the game was definitely part of the problem, but even
after accounting for that I still find some of the mechanics inherently
slow.

>> Recordkeeping takes time during a combat turn, so in theory reducing
>> record keeping could make gameplay faster.

> If you slap the players upside the head often enough, you'll find they
> do their recordkeeping while it's someone *else's* phase, instead of
> delaying the game for everyone.

That is not an option for the GM, because it's /always/ the GM's phase
in a typical encounter. The GM only gets a break in PvP fights, and
sometimes not even then.

> And there's nothing at all wrong with using Hero as a basis for
> creating what is basically your own custom game, if that's what you
> and your players enjoy.

I like most of the HERO basics, but there are a few bits that annoy me
greatly.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in
news:slrncrhip6.us3.bradd+news@szonye.com:

> JSwing wrote:
>>> Well the original thread was a gamer complaining about Hero being
>>> slow, and asking for ways to speed things up.
>
> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>> Speed responds well to a firm hand on the part of the GM. The actual
>> play isn't slow. What's slow is players trying to add up numbers in
>> their head to figure various combat values, or [wasting time].
>
> The major slowdowns I experienced when I last played HERO mostly had
> other causes:
>
> * adding up large damage/effect rolls

If you can't count d6s in your head, you probably shouldn't be playing
Hero. The quick tip is, can you recognize pairs of dice that add up to 10?
You know, a 6 and a 4? Grouping them by pairs that add up to 10 should be
very quick. Then, you just count by 10s. Body is even quicker to count:
group 1s and 6s, which cancel each other out. You have as much body as you
have dice, minus extra 1s, or plus extra 6s. Mere seconds.

> * figuring out whose turn it was

Definitely responds well to head slapping, perhaps by the players to the
GM.

> * bookkeeping for BODY, STUN, END, and adjustment powers

Should be done after the player's phase is over, and the next player is
rolling dice.
>
> Attack rolls were a bit of a problem too, since HERO's 11+OCV-DCV system
> is a bit clunky. We didn't notice it at the time, because we were
> accustomed to AD&D's equally clunky THAC0 system. However, now I'm
> spoiled by D&D3's subtraction-free approach, so relatively speaking this
> also becomes a minor problem.

It needs a little thought on how to deal with it. You don't do the 11+OCV-
DVC math. You roll dice. Find the difference between the roll and 11.
Subtract it from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit. Roll and 8? That's -3
from 11. You hit OCV - (-3) or OCV + 3. Simple. Quick. In your head,
without any fingers.

Much head slapping is needed to teach this to some players.
>
> However, I'm mostly worried about the three major issues above. I've
> worked out a situation for damage/effect rolls, and I think I may be
> able to speed up turn-switching with a little extra prep.

Use a count-down chart. Make it a full turn, rather than just counting down
the DEXes, to account for different speeds. If you're feeling ambitious,
put it in a sheet protector and use an erasable magic marker to mark off
each character.

> I'm still
> worried about the bookkeeping angle, though. All the different kinds of
> "hit points" and their different recovery rates are a pain. In my
> experience, it's slow and error-prone.

In my experience, that's true only if the GM lets it be true. Frankly, I
could probably speed up play as a GM by simply doing all the bookkeeping
myself, but players don't like that. So occasional head slapping reminds
them that the proper time to dig for their programmable scientific
calculator (to do arithmetic they should be doing in their heads) is
*after* their phase, not during.
>
>>> Actually a better answer to his direct problem would be to see if
>>> Hero was really the right game for his group, or whether it was just
>>> a learning curve issue, and so forth.
>
> Unfamiliarity with the game was definitely part of the problem, but even
> after accounting for that I still find some of the mechanics inherently
> slow.

I'll agree it's a slower game than many. That's the price of having so many
options, I suppose. But then, I cut my teeth on Chivalry & Sorcery (the Red
Book, 1st edition), so Hero holds no fear for me complexity-wise, or record
keeping-wise.
>
>>> Recordkeeping takes time during a combat turn, so in theory reducing
>>> record keeping could make gameplay faster.
>
>> If you slap the players upside the head often enough, you'll find they
>> do their recordkeeping while it's someone *else's* phase, instead of
>> delaying the game for everyone.
>
> That is not an option for the GM, because it's /always/ the GM's phase
> in a typical encounter. The GM only gets a break in PvP fights, and
> sometimes not even then.

The GM should be able to do the recordkeeping with about 1/10th of his
attention. It's arithmetic, after all. Keep a chart with various expendable
characteristis for each character, one to a row. Mark it off with tick
marks in groups of five. Put in on a spreadsheet on your Palm Pilot.
Practice, practice, practice. It's not that tough, if you put some thought
in how to organize your record sheet. And if it is, then Hero is probably a
poor choice for you to gamemaster.
>
>> And there's nothing at all wrong with using Hero as a basis for
>> creating what is basically your own custom game, if that's what you
>> and your players enjoy.
>
> I like most of the HERO basics, but there are a few bits that annoy me
> greatly.

That's what house rules were invented for. Makes it more difficult to do
pick-up games at a convention, maybe, but who goes to conventions any more?

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> The major slowdowns I experienced when I last played HERO mostly had
>> other causes:
>>
>> * adding up large damage/effect rolls

No 33 Secretary wrote:
> If you can't count d6s in your head, you probably shouldn't be playing
> Hero. The quick tip is, can you recognize pairs of dice that add up to 10?

I know the quick way to add fistfuls of dice. However, even the "quick"
way is still slow. That's why I plan to apply the Standard Effect Rule
to all dice past 3d6. (Experienced gamers can spot the total on 3d6 with
no adding whatsoever.)

>> * figuring out whose turn it was

> Definitely responds well to head slapping, perhaps by the players to
> the GM.

The fastest method, prepping a turn chart in advance, is comparable to
D&D turn speed. Unfortunately, it eats up prep time, which is also
valuable.

>> * bookkeeping for BODY, STUN, END, and adjustment powers

> Should be done after the player's phase is over, and the next player
> is rolling dice.

Not an option for the GM, and that's where most of the slowdown comes
from IME.

>> Attack rolls were a bit of a problem too, since HERO's 11+OCV-DCV
>> system is a bit clunky. We didn't notice it at the time, because we
>> were accustomed to AD&D's equally clunky THAC0 system. However, now
>> I'm spoiled by D&D3's subtraction-free approach, so relatively
>> speaking this also becomes a minor problem.

> It needs a little thought on how to deal with it. You don't do the
> 11+OCV- DVC math. You roll dice. Find the difference between the roll
> and 11. Subtract it from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit. Roll and 8?
> That's -3 from 11. You hit OCV - (-3) or OCV + 3. Simple. Quick. In
> your head, without any fingers.

Good grief, that's an awful way to do it. Instead, precalculate 11+OCV.
Figure out the margin of success on a roll (i.e., 11+OCV-roll), and
that's the DCV you hit.

>> I'm still worried about the bookkeeping angle, though. All the
>> different kinds of "hit points" and their different recovery rates
>> are a pain. In my experience, it's slow and error-prone.

> In my experience, that's true only if the GM lets it be true.

In my experience it's the GM who has trouble keeping track of it all.
Smacking around the players won't help, because they aren't the ones
with most of the bookkeeping overload.

>> Unfamiliarity with the game was definitely part of the problem, but
>> even after accounting for that I still find some of the mechanics
>> inherently slow.

> I'll agree it's a slower game than many. That's the price of having so
> many options, I suppose.

Some things are gratuitously slow, like the "roll low" mechanic that
requires constant subtraction from the target number. Subtraction is
slower and more error-prone than addition. That's not a big deal at the
start of a session, but it adds up over time as fatigue sets in (and the
extra work makes fatigue build up faster).

> The GM should be able to do the recordkeeping with about 1/10th of his
> attention. It's arithmetic, after all.

Arithmetic still takes time, and it still causes fatigue. And it takes a
lot more than 1/10th of my attention; IME, the bookkeeping takes longer
than anything else except counting fistfuls of dice. The actual time
taken to make decisions is very small; it's the mechanics that slow down
the game.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in
news:slrncrhmnq.us3.bradd+news@szonye.com:

> Bradd wrote:
>>> The major slowdowns I experienced when I last played HERO mostly had
>>> other causes:
>>>
>>> * adding up large damage/effect rolls
>
> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>> If you can't count d6s in your head, you probably shouldn't be
>> playing Hero. The quick tip is, can you recognize pairs of dice that
>> add up to 10?
>
> I know the quick way to add fistfuls of dice. However, even the
> "quick" way is still slow. That's why I plan to apply the Standard
> Effect Rule to all dice past 3d6. (Experienced gamers can spot the
> total on 3d6 with no adding whatsoever.)

A couple of seconds. Really. I've waited longer for d20s to stop rolling,
much less figure out what they say.
>
>>> * figuring out whose turn it was
>
>> Definitely responds well to head slapping, perhaps by the players to
>> the GM.
>
> The fastest method, prepping a turn chart in advance, is comparable to
> D&D turn speed. Unfortunately, it eats up prep time, which is also
> valuable.

Put it on a spreadsheet. Sheesh.
>
>>> * bookkeeping for BODY, STUN, END, and adjustment powers
>
>> Should be done after the player's phase is over, and the next player
>> is rolling dice.
>
> Not an option for the GM, and that's where most of the slowdown comes
> from IME.

Prep, and practice. Or find a game the GM is better suited for.
>
>>> Attack rolls were a bit of a problem too, since HERO's 11+OCV-DCV
>>> system is a bit clunky. We didn't notice it at the time, because we
>>> were accustomed to AD&D's equally clunky THAC0 system. However, now
>>> I'm spoiled by D&D3's subtraction-free approach, so relatively
>>> speaking this also becomes a minor problem.
>
>> It needs a little thought on how to deal with it. You don't do the
>> 11+OCV- DVC math. You roll dice. Find the difference between the roll
>> and 11. Subtract it from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit. Roll and
>> 8? That's -3 from 11. You hit OCV - (-3) or OCV + 3. Simple. Quick.
>> In your head, without any fingers.
>
> Good grief, that's an awful way to do it. Instead, precalculate
> 11+OCV. Figure out the margin of success on a roll (i.e.,
> 11+OCV-roll), and that's the DCV you hit.

It works better in practice than it sounds. Your method is two steps in
one's head. Mine's one (at a time).
>
>>> I'm still worried about the bookkeeping angle, though. All the
>>> different kinds of "hit points" and their different recovery rates
>>> are a pain. In my experience, it's slow and error-prone.
>
>> In my experience, that's true only if the GM lets it be true.
>
> In my experience it's the GM who has trouble keeping track of it all.

Such a GM would be better served (and better serve his players) with a
simpler game, I suspect.

> Smacking around the players won't help, because they aren't the ones
> with most of the bookkeeping overload.

They should be slapping the GM.
>
>>> Unfamiliarity with the game was definitely part of the problem, but
>>> even after accounting for that I still find some of the mechanics
>>> inherently slow.
>
>> I'll agree it's a slower game than many. That's the price of having
>> so many options, I suppose.
>
> Some things are gratuitously slow, like the "roll low" mechanic that
> requires constant subtraction from the target number. Subtraction is
> slower and more error-prone than addition.

Do you game with grade school dropouts or something?

>That's not a big deal at
> the start of a session, but it adds up over time as fatigue sets in
> (and the extra work makes fatigue build up faster).

It's arithmatic, dude.
>
>> The GM should be able to do the recordkeeping with about 1/10th of
>> his attention. It's arithmetic, after all.
>
> Arithmetic still takes time, and it still causes fatigue.

If you say so.

> And it takes
> a lot more than 1/10th of my attention; IME, the bookkeeping takes
> longer than anything else except counting fistfuls of dice. The actual
> time taken to make decisions is very small; it's the mechanics that
> slow down the game.

Hasn't been my experience.

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> I know the quick way to add fistfuls of [d6]. However, even the
>> "quick" way is still slow.

No 33 Secretary wrote:
> A couple of seconds. Really.

I agree -- and that's too slow. Other games are faster, and they offer
just as much. The fistfuls of dice don't add anything to the game but
time.

>> The fastest method, prepping a turn chart in advance, is comparable
>> to D&D turn speed. Unfortunately, it eats up prep time, which is also
>> valuable.

> Put it on a spreadsheet. Sheesh.

How's that faster? Typing and printing isn't any faster than pencil and
paper. It still eats up valuable prep time.

>>> It needs a little thought on how to deal with it. You don't do the
>>> 11+OCV- DVC math. You roll dice. Find the difference between the
>>> roll and 11. Subtract it from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit. Roll
>>> and 8? That's -3 from 11. You hit OCV - (-3) or OCV + 3. Simple.
>>> Quick. In your head, without any fingers.

>> Good grief, that's an awful way to do it. Instead, precalculate
>> 11+OCV. Figure out the margin of success on a roll (i.e., 11+OCV-roll),
>> and that's the DCV you hit.

> It works better in practice than it sounds. Your method is two steps
> in one's head. Mine's one (at a time).

You misunderstood me.

Let's say your OCV is 7. You write "Attack Roll 18-" on your character
sheet. Suppose you roll 8. You hit DCV 18-8=10. Only one step.

In other words, it's just like an 11+level skill roll, and the margin of
success is the DCV you hit. Since you write the "11+level" part on your
character sheet, pre-calculated, you only need to subtract once.

Also, I don't get how your method is only one step. You subtract from
11, then you subtract from OCV: two steps in your head.

>> In my experience it's the GM who has trouble keeping track of [all
>> the HERO bookkeeping].

> Such a GM would be better served (and better serve his players) with a
> simpler game, I suspect.

It's simple enough, there's just too damn much bookkeeping.

>> Some things are gratuitously slow, like the "roll low" mechanic that
>> requires constant subtraction from the target number. Subtraction is
>> slower and more error-prone than addition.

> Do you game with grade school dropouts or something?

I think you're vastly overestimating the ability of people to do math
quickly and accurately in their heads, especially when they're tired.
Perhaps you're accustomed to playing with autistic savants?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 17:29:02 -0000, No 33 Secretary
<taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote:

>Speed responds well to a firm hand on the part of the GM. The actual play
>isn't slow. What's slow is players trying to add up numbers in their head
>to figure various combat values, or making love to their dice for half an
>hour before rolling them. In the first case, it's usually the same numbers
>every time, so a good slap to the back of the head will often cause them to
>start making notes. In the second case, a stop watch will really improve
>play. 15 second limit, and if you miss it, you hold until you get your head
>out of your ass.


Not too bad an idea. I had a player who started rolling their hit
rolsl one dice at a time..for some stupid reasoning. I ended that by
telling them if they kept wasting everyones time, I'd simply consider
any roll they made using that method an auto failure.


>My experience (which goes back to 2nd edition) is that the way to make it
>faster is to make the players more proficient at it.

Yes--beyond certain gimmicks, this is the core truth: nothing slows a
game down that rulebook page flipping.

>
>If you slap the players upside the head often enough, you'll find they do
>their recordkeeping while it's someone *else's* phase, instead of delaying
>the game for everyone. There's no reason to do it during your own phase.

I heartily concur. Power pool players who wait to the start of their
phase to caluclate pool values should be flogged.
>>

incrdbil

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in
news:slrncrhrg1.us3.bradd+news@szonye.com:

> Bradd wrote:
>>> I know the quick way to add fistfuls of [d6]. However, even the
>>> "quick" way is still slow.
>
> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>> A couple of seconds. Really.
>
> I agree -- and that's too slow.

Then you should be playing computer games.

> Other games are faster, and they offer
> just as much. The fistfuls of dice don't add anything to the game but
> time.
>
For you.

>>> The fastest method, prepping a turn chart in advance, is comparable
>>> to D&D turn speed. Unfortunately, it eats up prep time, which is also
>>> valuable.
>
>> Put it on a spreadsheet. Sheesh.
>
> How's that faster? Typing and printing isn't any faster than pencil and
> paper. It still eats up valuable prep time.

You *really* should stick to computer games, dude.
>
>>>> It needs a little thought on how to deal with it. You don't do the
>>>> 11+OCV- DVC math. You roll dice. Find the difference between the
>>>> roll and 11. Subtract it from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit. Roll
>>>> and 8? That's -3 from 11. You hit OCV - (-3) or OCV + 3. Simple.
>>>> Quick. In your head, without any fingers.
>
>>> Good grief, that's an awful way to do it. Instead, precalculate
>>> 11+OCV. Figure out the margin of success on a roll (i.e., 11+OCV-roll),
>>> and that's the DCV you hit.
>
>> It works better in practice than it sounds. Your method is two steps
>> in one's head. Mine's one (at a time).
>
> You misunderstood me.
>
> Let's say your OCV is 7. You write "Attack Roll 18-" on your character
> sheet. Suppose you roll 8. You hit DCV 18-8=10. Only one step.
>
> In other words, it's just like an 11+level skill roll, and the margin of
> success is the DCV you hit. Since you write the "11+level" part on your
> character sheet, pre-calculated, you only need to subtract once.
>
> Also, I don't get how your method is only one step. You subtract from
> 11, then you subtract from OCV: two steps in your head.

Once (at a time). It's also the same for everyone, so head slapping is
easier and more efficient. C&S was real good at having to write stuff down
on the character sheet to prevent slow play - lots and lots of stuff, like
to hit numbers for each armor class for each weapons - and it wasn't an
advantage.

But whatever works. You're complaining about a couple of seconds. You
should be playing computer games.
>
>>> In my experience it's the GM who has trouble keeping track of [all
>>> the HERO bookkeeping].
>
>> Such a GM would be better served (and better serve his players) with a
>> simpler game, I suspect.
>
> It's simple enough, there's just too damn much bookkeeping.

Not much more than any other full featured game.
>
>>> Some things are gratuitously slow, like the "roll low" mechanic that
>>> requires constant subtraction from the target number. Subtraction is
>>> slower and more error-prone than addition.
>
>> Do you game with grade school dropouts or something?
>
> I think you're vastly overestimating the ability of people to do math
> quickly and accurately in their heads, especially when they're tired.
> Perhaps you're accustomed to playing with autistic savants?

No, I'm used to playing with people who have graduated high school because
they deserved to. It really isn't an issue, and never has been (provided
enough head slapping encouragement is supplies to prevent laziness).

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

incrdbil@spammebabyflinthills.com (incrdbil) wrote in
news:41b8eecc.160143468@usenet.flinthills.com:

> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 17:29:02 -0000, No 33 Secretary
> <taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>
>>Speed responds well to a firm hand on the part of the GM. The actual
>>play isn't slow. What's slow is players trying to add up numbers in
>>their head to figure various combat values, or making love to their
>>dice for half an hour before rolling them. In the first case, it's
>>usually the same numbers every time, so a good slap to the back of the
>>head will often cause them to start making notes. In the second case,
>>a stop watch will really improve play. 15 second limit, and if you
>>miss it, you hold until you get your head out of your ass.
>
>
> Not too bad an idea. I had a player who started rolling their hit
> rolsl one dice at a time..for some stupid reasoning. I ended that by
> telling them if they kept wasting everyones time, I'd simply consider
> any roll they made using that method an auto failure.

That's harsh, though not unjustified if he's doing in on purpose. Hero has
the perfect mechanism for skipping someone who is taking to long in the
withhold mechanic. It's a normal, routine part of the game, and very easy
to include as an involuntary thing when needed.
>
>
>>My experience (which goes back to 2nd edition) is that the way to make
>>it faster is to make the players more proficient at it.
>
> Yes--beyond certain gimmicks, this is the core truth: nothing slows a
> game down that rulebook page flipping.

Yeah. We learned, long ago, with Chivalry & Sorcer, that some games need
the GM and at least one (and preferably more) player to know the rules,
pretty much word for word, from front cover to back. Hero is one of those
games.
>
>>
>>If you slap the players upside the head often enough, you'll find they
>>do their recordkeeping while it's someone *else's* phase, instead of
>>delaying the game for everyone. There's no reason to do it during your
>>own phase.
>
> I heartily concur.

Though, as has been pointed out, GMs usually have more recordkeeping than
all the players combined, but the very scale of it allows for more
efficient techniques. If one is prepared.

>Power pool players who wait to the start of their
> phase to caluclate pool values should be flogged.

Continuously, until they're done. Or, as noted above, they can simply
withhold. A lot. Even if they start losing phases.

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

[Fitz]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 22:29:39 -0000, No 33 Secretary
<taustin+usenet@hyperbooks.com> wrote:

>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in
>news:slrncrhip6.us3.bradd+news@szonye.com:

>>
>> Attack rolls were a bit of a problem too, since HERO's 11+OCV-DCV system
>> is a bit clunky. We didn't notice it at the time, because we were
>> accustomed to AD&D's equally clunky THAC0 system. However, now I'm
>> spoiled by D&D3's subtraction-free approach, so relatively speaking this
>> also becomes a minor problem.
>
>It needs a little thought on how to deal with it. You don't do the 11+OCV-
>DVC math. You roll dice. Find the difference between the roll and 11.
>Subtract it from your OCV. That's the DCV you hit. Roll and 8? That's -3
>from 11. You hit OCV - (-3) or OCV + 3. Simple. Quick. In your head,
>without any fingers.
>
>Much head slapping is needed to teach this to some players.

We just turned it on its head. Instead of the usual subtraction
method, we just add everything (OCV, modifiers, 3d6 roll) and the
resulting number is the DCV hit +10. Dump the left-hand figure (or
drop it by 1 if it's greater than 1) and that's the DCV you hit.

It's effectively no different to the way shown in the official rules,
but because it's *all* addition, it runs a lot faster.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fitz
http://fitz.jsr.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" wrote:
> > Put it on a spreadsheet. Sheesh.
>
> How's that faster? Typing and printing isn't any faster than pencil and
> paper. It still eats up valuable prep time.

Not only that, but in my experience the pre-prepared chart often won't match
the actual mix of combatants that end up in the fight (due to players taking
unforseen paths through the scenario), requiring adjustments at the time of
the encounter.

Another huge problem is characters who can change their speed or dex. Do you
put multiple entries per character on your spreadsheet?


--
David Meadows
"Ohhh-kayyy... Anyone got any kind of non-Zen plan?"
--Sara, Heroes #21
Heroes: the comic book www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts