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Good spreadsheet for Hero character creation?

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Anonymous
July 12, 2005 10:55:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

What's the best spreadsheet for Hero character creation? And
where is it? Either MS Excel or else Open Office's "Calc".

The more work it does for the user, the better.

I like to try out different character creation systems, and
I've decided that I want to make up a dude calledThe Last
Wolf Man in Hero 5th Edition, to get a better feel for the
system.

I'm fairly sure I won't need anything from the "Power
Frameworks" section. Both because the concept doesn't call
for any of that, and because that's the one part of the
rules which I simply don't understand.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 12:58:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

What don't you understand about power frameworks? ECs, Multipower or
Variable Power Pools? (All three?)


"Peter Knutsen (usenet)" <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote in message
news:42d3f5b1$0$67260$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>

> I'm fairly sure I won't need anything from the "Power Frameworks" section.
> Both because the concept doesn't call for any of that, and because that's
> the one part of the rules which I simply don't understand.
>
> --
> Peter Knutsen
> sagatafl.org
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 9:21:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Zamfir wrote:
> What don't you understand about power frameworks? ECs, Multipower or
> Variable Power Pools? (All three?)

How to calculate the final cost, plus the intermediate
costs. Also I'm not really sure when each of the three are
appropriate to use. So basically everything.

Does Sidekick, or the Revised Edition, explain things
better? I'll buy those PDFs in August or September.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

> "Peter Knutsen (usenet)" <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote in message
>
>>I'm fairly sure I won't need anything from the "Power Frameworks" section.
>>Both because the concept doesn't call for any of that, and because that's
>>the one part of the rules which I simply don't understand.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 9:21:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

I think 5re does explain them pretty well re: costs.

When to use them is basically as needed for effect, just as for any power.

I look at it like this:

If I want to use several powers at the same time and all at full effect,
then I use an EC. Tight SFX required.

If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept), then
a Multipower.

I've never been a fan of multi-slots, so all my Multipowers are fixed (or
ultra slots for the old timers).

For Variable Power Pools, I use them when I want lots of flexibility to
cobble up powers on the spot, say for a gadgeteer who can pull any gadget
out or for something like sorcery where you can do just about anything.

Of course since these are just building blocks, you can use them in a
million ways. That's one of the daunting things about Champs. And after 22
years of playing the game, I still don't get it all!

> How to calculate the final cost, plus the intermediate costs. Also I'm not
> really sure when each of the three are appropriate to use. So basically
> everything.
>
> Does Sidekick, or the Revised Edition, explain things better? I'll buy
> those PDFs in August or September.
>
> --
> Peter Knutsen
> sagatafl.org
>
>> "Peter Knutsen (usenet)" <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote in message
>>>I'm fairly sure I won't need anything from the "Power Frameworks"
>>>section. Both because the concept doesn't call for any of that, and
>>>because that's the one part of the rules which I simply don't understand.
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 10:52:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

I'll archive your post, for future personal reference (I do
that a lot, with Usenet posts I find useful, e.g. the sniper
thread from 1-2 years ago).

Zamfir wrote:
> I think 5re does explain them pretty well re: costs.

Better than the un-revised edition?

> When to use them is basically as needed for effect, just as for any power.
>
> I look at it like this:
>
> If I want to use several powers at the same time and all at full effect,
> then I use an EC. Tight SFX required.

Noted: EC allows usage of all the Powers simultaneously, and
at full effect, but all powers must have a "theme".

(It is my understanding that the downside of an EC is that a
Drain, Supress or similar fully affects all the powers in
the EC. Is that correct?)

> If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept), then
> a Multipower.

Does it have to be attacks?

> I've never been a fan of multi-slots, so all my Multipowers are fixed (or

What's the difference between multi-slots and Multipowers?

> ultra slots for the old timers).
>
> For Variable Power Pools, I use them when I want lots of flexibility to
> cobble up powers on the spot, say for a gadgeteer who can pull any gadget
> out or for something like sorcery where you can do just about anything.

What if I want a limited kind of sorcery, like only effects
having to do with fear inducement or the creation/control of
undead?

> Of course since these are just building blocks, you can use them in a
> million ways. That's one of the daunting things about Champs. And after 22
> years of playing the game, I still don't get it all!

I consider myself capable of "getting" everything in Hero
5th Edition, although sometimes with help, except the Power
Frameworks. But I guess it's just a question of coming up
with some actual examples (the character I'm making, the
Last Wolf Man, is a shaman/martial
artist/intellectual/sensor, and doesn't need anything in
Power Frameworks[1]) and then asking in here.


[1] Apart from generally good/high attributes, he has mostly
very sharp Senses (he can Target with Hearing and Mental
Awareness, and can Track and Discriminate and Analyze with
multiple senses), and the ability to Succor the EGO of
others (to help them resist fear and magic), and he can heal
wounds by licking them, and then he has a bunch of skills
and around 20 points in Martial Arts. I have a few more
points to spend (on a 400 budget) and some fun ideas for
what to do, and then I'll post the writeup in here for
general feedback.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 10:52:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> Better than the un-revised edition?

Dunno. Never saw 5 un-revised.

> (It is my understanding that the downside of an EC is that a Drain,
> Supress or similar fully affects all the powers in the EC. Is that
> correct?)

Yes. You are getting a point savings by using an EC and since the SFX is
tight, anything that takes points away takes them from all powers
simultaneously.

>> If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept),
>> then a Multipower.
>
> Does it have to be attacks?

No, but probably the most common use. You could have a sense multipower and
have it be a sci-fi gadget/tricorder, etc.

>> I've never been a fan of multi-slots, so all my Multipowers are fixed (or
>
> What's the difference between multi-slots and Multipowers?

A Multipower is the framework itself. A multi-slot (now technically called
a flexible slot) means that you can vary the points in that slot. Example:

60 point Multipower
fixed slot: 12d6 Energy Blast (has to use all 60 active points, even if you
only use 8d6 effect.)
flexible slot: 12d6 EB (can use from 10 (minimum for EB) to 60 active
points)

Here's what you can do with a basic flexible slot MP:

12d6 EB
30/30 FF
30" Flight

Each phase you can vary the allocation to each flexible slot. So on phase 3
you could blast at max, then on phase 5 defense at 15/15 and fly at 15",
etc.

> What if I want a limited kind of sorcery, like only effects having to do
> with fear inducement or the creation/control of undead?

That will lower the control cost of the VPP (which is half the base pool),
e.g. 60 pt. VPP, control cost = 30. Any limitations are applied to the
control cost only. Example: gadget pool, all OAF. 60 points for the pool,
15 for the control cost.

> I consider myself capable of "getting" everything in Hero 5th Edition,
> although sometimes with help, except the Power Frameworks. But I guess
> it's just a question of coming up with some actual examples (the character
> I'm making, the Last Wolf Man, is a shaman/martial
> artist/intellectual/sensor, and doesn't need anything in Power
> Frameworks[1]) and then asking in here.
>

Here's an example: VPP for senses. Buy 25 points as the base, with the +1
advantage Can Change as a 0 phase action. Don't overlook the power of a
good framework.


> [1] Apart from generally good/high attributes, he has mostly very sharp
> Senses (he can Target with Hearing and Mental Awareness, and can Track and
> Discriminate and Analyze with multiple senses), and the ability to Succor
> the EGO of others (to help them resist fear and magic), and he can heal
> wounds by licking them, and then he has a bunch of skills and around 20
> points in Martial Arts. I have a few more points to spend (on a 400
> budget) and some fun ideas for what to do, and then I'll post the writeup
> in here for general feedback.

I'd think about that VPP. You might end up saving some points!
Anonymous
July 13, 2005 11:30:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:52:29 +0200, "Peter Knutsen (usenet)"
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>
>I'll archive your post, for future personal reference (I do
>that a lot, with Usenet posts I find useful, e.g. the sniper
>thread from 1-2 years ago).
>
>Zamfir wrote:
>> I think 5re does explain them pretty well re: costs.
>
>Better than the un-revised edition?
>
>> When to use them is basically as needed for effect, just as for any power.
>>
>> I look at it like this:
>>
>> If I want to use several powers at the same time and all at full effect,
>> then I use an EC. Tight SFX required.
>
>Noted: EC allows usage of all the Powers simultaneously, and
>at full effect, but all powers must have a "theme".
>
>(It is my understanding that the downside of an EC is that a
>Drain, Supress or similar fully affects all the powers in
>the EC. Is that correct?)

Any Drain or such effect which affects one power will affect all the
other powers.

>
>> If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept), then
>> a Multipower.
>
>Does it have to be attacks?

No. But Multipower is most useful for multiple attacks which can only
be used one at a time.

>
>> I've never been a fan of multi-slots, so all my Multipowers are fixed (or
>
>What's the difference between multi-slots and Multipowers?

The Multipower is the whole framework of powers.
A slot is an individual power in the multipower.
A "multi" slot is a slot which can be used at less than the full value
in points. For example, suppose you have a 90 point multipower, and
three of the slots are a 14 dice blast (70 points), 30" of flight (60
points), and 40 PD, 40 ED forcefield. (80 points).

If you want to hit something with your full blast, you would not be
able to use your full flight or your full forcefield because that
would add up to more than 90 points. But if they were multi-slots,
you could blast away while flying at 10", or keeping a 10 PD, 10 ED
forcefield. It's like being the Starship Enterprise. You can have
full power to phasers or full power to the shields but not both.

In practise however, most people find the extra book-keeping to be a
pain in the ass in a game already loaded with things to keep track of,
so they go with "fixed" slots that are cheaper and simpler. Our
character would have to choose between his blast, his flight and his
forcefield.

>
>> ultra slots for the old timers).
>>
>> For Variable Power Pools, I use them when I want lots of flexibility to
>> cobble up powers on the spot, say for a gadgeteer who can pull any gadget
>> out or for something like sorcery where you can do just about anything.
>
>What if I want a limited kind of sorcery, like only effects
>having to do with fear inducement or the creation/control of
>undead?

Well you can get a limitation on your variable power pool's control
cost that limits it to effects with a specific theme or you can just
get the powers, usually in an elemental or a multipower and call them
magic.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 7:11:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:
> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>Zamfir wrote:
>>>I look at it like this:
>>>
>>>If I want to use several powers at the same time and all at full effect,
>>>then I use an EC. Tight SFX required.
>>
>>Noted: EC allows usage of all the Powers simultaneously, and
>>at full effect, but all powers must have a "theme".
>>
>>(It is my understanding that the downside of an EC is that a
>>Drain, Supress or similar fully affects all the powers in
>>the EC. Is that correct?)
>
> Any Drain or such effect which affects one power will affect all the
> other powers.

OK.

>>>If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept), then
>>>a Multipower.
>>
>>Does it have to be attacks?
>
> No. But Multipower is most useful for multiple attacks which can only
> be used one at a time.

Wouldn't it also be good for magical abilities, which can
only be used one at a time?

>>>I've never been a fan of multi-slots, so all my Multipowers are fixed (or
>>
>>What's the difference between multi-slots and Multipowers?
>
> The Multipower is the whole framework of powers.
> A slot is an individual power in the multipower.
> A "multi" slot is a slot which can be used at less than the full value
> in points. For example, suppose you have a 90 point multipower, and
> three of the slots are a 14 dice blast (70 points), 30" of flight (60
> points), and 40 PD, 40 ED forcefield. (80 points).
>
> If you want to hit something with your full blast, you would not be
> able to use your full flight or your full forcefield because that
> would add up to more than 90 points. But if they were multi-slots,
> you could blast away while flying at 10", or keeping a 10 PD, 10 ED
> forcefield. It's like being the Starship Enterprise. You can have
> full power to phasers or full power to the shields but not both.
>
> In practise however, most people find the extra book-keeping to be a
> pain in the ass in a game already loaded with things to keep track of,

Isn't it possible to pre-calculate something like 5-8
"combinations" of power usage? And then mostly use those,
during play?

> so they go with "fixed" slots that are cheaper and simpler. Our
> character would have to choose between his blast, his flight and his
> forcefield.
>
>>>ultra slots for the old timers).
>>>
>>>For Variable Power Pools, I use them when I want lots of flexibility to
>>>cobble up powers on the spot, say for a gadgeteer who can pull any gadget
>>>out or for something like sorcery where you can do just about anything.
>>
>>What if I want a limited kind of sorcery, like only effects
>>having to do with fear inducement or the creation/control of
>>undead?
>
> Well you can get a limitation on your variable power pool's control
> cost that limits it to effects with a specific theme or you can just
> get the powers, usually in an elemental or a multipower and call them
> magic.

Which one is best?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 7:22:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

Thanks to you and David, for the explanations regarding the
various Power Frameworks.

Peter:
>>I consider myself capable of "getting" everything in Hero 5th Edition,
>>although sometimes with help, except the Power Frameworks. But I guess
>>it's just a question of coming up with some actual examples (the character
>>I'm making, the Last Wolf Man, is a shaman/martial
>>artist/intellectual/sensor, and doesn't need anything in Power
>>Frameworks[1]) and then asking in here.

Zamfir wrote:
> Here's an example: VPP for senses. Buy 25 points as the base, with the +1
> advantage Can Change as a 0 phase action. Don't overlook the power of a
> good framework.

Peter:
>>[1] Apart from generally good/high attributes, he has mostly very sharp
>>Senses (he can Target with Hearing and Mental Awareness, and can Track and
>>Discriminate and Analyze with multiple senses), and the ability to Succor
>>the EGO of others (to help them resist fear and magic), and he can heal
>>wounds by licking them, and then he has a bunch of skills and around 20
>>points in Martial Arts. I have a few more points to spend (on a 400
>>budget) and some fun ideas for what to do, and then I'll post the writeup
>>in here for general feedback.
>
Zamfir wrote:
> I'd think about that VPP. You might end up saving some points!

OK, here are the Senses that the Last Wolf Man Shaman has:

Due to INT 23 his PER roll is 13.6 which rounds to 14.

I then spend 2 points boosting his PER roll for Sense of
Hearing by +2 (but see below where I also give Hearing the
"Telescopic" Adder).
And I spend 4 points boosting his PER roll for Sense of
Smell by +4.

Mental Awareness:
5 points to buy it (as per FRED, where it is a Sense).
5 points to make MeA Discriminatory
5 points to make MeA Analytic
5 points to give MeA a 360 degree arc-of-perception (I
presume that it is not natively a 360 sense).
10 points to make MeA into a Targetting Sense.
5 points to make MeA into a Tracking Sense

Hearing:
Hearing is already a Discriminatory Sense, this costs no points.
5 points to make Hearing Analytic
10 points to make Hearing into a Targetting Sense
2 points to give Hearing 1 lvl of Telescopic

Smell:
5 points to make Smell Discriminatory
5 points to make Smell Analytic
5 points to make Smell a Tracking Sense

That's a total of 73 points spent on Senses, of which 6 are
spent on boosting various PERs, 5 points are spent to buy a
non-standard Sense (Mental Awareness), and the last 62
points are spent to buy various Adders to MeA, Hearing and
Scent.


What can I do to put these expensive things into some kind
of Power Framework?

I won't have a problem with him being unable to use more
than one of those three Senses at a time. Realistically, he
will use all three similtaneously often, but on the other
hand he will often chose to "focus" on a single Sense to the
exclusion of all others.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 7:22:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

>
> Hearing:
> Hearing is already a Discriminatory Sense, this costs no points.
> 5 points to make Hearing Analytic
> 10 points to make Hearing into a Targetting Sense
> 2 points to give Hearing 1 lvl of Telescopic
>
> Smell:
> 5 points to make Smell Discriminatory
> 5 points to make Smell Analytic
> 5 points to make Smell a Tracking Sense
>
> That's a total of 73 points spent on Senses, of which 6 are spent on
> boosting various PERs, 5 points are spent to buy a non-standard Sense
> (Mental Awareness), and the last 62 points are spent to buy various Adders
> to MeA, Hearing and Scent.
>
>
> What can I do to put these expensive things into some kind of Power
> Framework?
>
> I won't have a problem with him being unable to use more than one of those
> three Senses at a time. Realistically, he will use all three
> similtaneously often, but on the other hand he will often chose to "focus"
> on a single Sense to the exclusion of all others.

I would buy a VPP with a base pool big enough to include the most expensive
sense, which sounds like MA at 35 points. Then you buy the control cost
(1/2 of the base)=17, total 52 points. My suggestion would be to buy the +1
advantage, Can Change as a 0 Phase Action, which doubles the control cost.
New total 70 points.

There are pros and cons to this. If your concept is rather rigid, say,
these senses, and these senses alone are what you want, then you'll probably
be disadvantaged by the VPP. OTOH, if you want access to more senses than
you've specified, then VPP is the ticket.

With the VPP, you can build any sense you want, as long as it fits into the
base pool cost, essentially allow access to any and all senses, something
you couldn't afford otherwise. That's why VPP is great for that kind of
concept.

If you want your wolf guy to just have the effects you've listed, then you
have to pay for the senses as written, especially if you any of them to be
able to trigger at the same time. With a VPP, you'd have to make the switch
consciously, and you might get caught with your proverbial pants down.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 9:20:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:11:52 +0200, "Peter Knutsen (usenet)"
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:


>
>>>>If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept), then
>>>>a Multipower.
>>>
>>>Does it have to be attacks?
>>
>> No. But Multipower is most useful for multiple attacks which can only
>> be used one at a time.
>
>Wouldn't it also be good for magical abilities, which can
>only be used one at a time?

Sure. In fact the classic Multipower character used to be Ultraboy
from the old Legion of Superheroes, who had just about all of
Superboy's powers, but could only use them one at a time, so he could
be super strong, or he could have enough armour to be virtually
indestructible, but not both at the same time.


>> If you want to hit something with your full blast, you would not be
>> able to use your full flight or your full forcefield because that
>> would add up to more than 90 points. But if they were multi-slots,
>> you could blast away while flying at 10", or keeping a 10 PD, 10 ED
>> forcefield. It's like being the Starship Enterprise. You can have
>> full power to phasers or full power to the shields but not both.
>>
>> In practise however, most people find the extra book-keeping to be a
>> pain in the ass in a game already loaded with things to keep track of,
>
>Isn't it possible to pre-calculate something like 5-8
>"combinations" of power usage? And then mostly use those,
>during play?

Yes. Definitely.


>>
>>>>ultra slots for the old timers).
>>>>
>>>>For Variable Power Pools, I use them when I want lots of flexibility to
>>>>cobble up powers on the spot, say for a gadgeteer who can pull any gadget
>>>>out or for something like sorcery where you can do just about anything.
>>>
>>>What if I want a limited kind of sorcery, like only effects
>>>having to do with fear inducement or the creation/control of
>>>undead?
>>
>> Well you can get a limitation on your variable power pool's control
>> cost that limits it to effects with a specific theme or you can just
>> get the powers, usually in an elemental or a multipower and call them
>> magic.
>
>Which one is best?

Matter of personal preference and number crunching. Also GM
preference since some of them are allergic to VPPs.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 9:20:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> Matter of personal preference and number crunching. Also GM
> preference since some of them are allergic to VPPs.

I have never understood GM's being allergic to VPPs. If it's balance, you
pay for it with the control cost. A good GM should still bless each power
the player wants to put in there.

It's easy to tell when players are trying to get over. You just shoot them
down. But disallowing VPPs altogether? That's just being chicken, or maybe
they don't understand how the power/framework works. I've seen many GMs
disallow powers because they didn't really get them.
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 9:48:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:29 +0200, "Peter Knutsen (usenet)"
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>
>Thanks to you and David, for the explanations regarding the
>various Power Frameworks.
>
>Peter:
>>>I consider myself capable of "getting" everything in Hero 5th Edition,
>>>although sometimes with help, except the Power Frameworks. But I guess
>>>it's just a question of coming up with some actual examples (the character
>>>I'm making, the Last Wolf Man, is a shaman/martial
>>>artist/intellectual/sensor, and doesn't need anything in Power
>>>Frameworks[1]) and then asking in here.
>
>Zamfir wrote:
>> Here's an example: VPP for senses. Buy 25 points as the base, with the +1
>> advantage Can Change as a 0 phase action. Don't overlook the power of a
>> good framework.
>
>Peter:
>>>[1] Apart from generally good/high attributes, he has mostly very sharp
>>>Senses (he can Target with Hearing and Mental Awareness, and can Track and
>>>Discriminate and Analyze with multiple senses), and the ability to Succor
>>>the EGO of others (to help them resist fear and magic), and he can heal
>>>wounds by licking them, and then he has a bunch of skills and around 20
>>>points in Martial Arts. I have a few more points to spend (on a 400
>>>budget) and some fun ideas for what to do, and then I'll post the writeup
>>>in here for general feedback.
>>
>Zamfir wrote:
>> I'd think about that VPP. You might end up saving some points!

Unless his senses switch off when he's not concentrating on them,
that'd be a poor choice.

>
>OK, here are the Senses that the Last Wolf Man Shaman has:
>
>Due to INT 23 his PER roll is 13.6 which rounds to 14.
>
>I then spend 2 points boosting his PER roll for Sense of
>Hearing by +2 (but see below where I also give Hearing the
>"Telescopic" Adder).
>And I spend 4 points boosting his PER roll for Sense of
>Smell by +4.
>
>Mental Awareness:
>5 points to buy it (as per FRED, where it is a Sense).
>5 points to make MeA Discriminatory
>5 points to make MeA Analytic
>5 points to give MeA a 360 degree arc-of-perception (I
>presume that it is not natively a 360 sense).
>10 points to make MeA into a Targetting Sense.
>5 points to make MeA into a Tracking Sense
>
>Hearing:
>Hearing is already a Discriminatory Sense, this costs no points.
>5 points to make Hearing Analytic
>10 points to make Hearing into a Targetting Sense
>2 points to give Hearing 1 lvl of Telescopic
>
>Smell:
>5 points to make Smell Discriminatory
>5 points to make Smell Analytic
>5 points to make Smell a Tracking Sense
>
>That's a total of 73 points spent on Senses, of which 6 are
>spent on boosting various PERs, 5 points are spent to buy a
>non-standard Sense (Mental Awareness), and the last 62
>points are spent to buy various Adders to MeA, Hearing and
>Scent.
>
>
>What can I do to put these expensive things into some kind
>of Power Framework?

Ahem. You may not be able to. On the first page of Power Frameworks
it will say "Characters cannot purchase Special Powers and Talents in
Power Frameworks except with the GM's permission". Enhanced sense are

a Special Power. That's to keep people from sleazing their way into a
bunch of supercheap senses bought as an Elemental. Assuming a
compliant GM (and I would be reluctant), you would probably do it as a
35 point Multipower something like this

Slot 1: (fixed): Mental Awareness (active points: 35) real cost 4
Slot 2: (fixed): Smell (Active points: 15) real cost 2
Slot 3: (fixed): Hearing (Active points: 17) real cost 2

Total cost 43 points


Smell and Hearing are small enough that you could have them both going
at the same time as long as you aren't using Mental Awareness. The
perception bonuses are something I would not allow in the multipower.

And I'd suggest you eschew the multipower entirely because Senses are
most useful when they are always on. I would be adamant about the
unacceptability of a senses Elemental precisely because senses
inherently have a grouped theme and Elementals allow you to have them
all on all the time.
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 12:35:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:25:20 -0500, "Zamfir" <zamfir@pan-flute.com>
wrote:

>> Matter of personal preference and number crunching. Also GM
>> preference since some of them are allergic to VPPs.
>
>I have never understood GM's being allergic to VPPs. If it's balance, you
>pay for it with the control cost.

The control cost is a relative pittance for the ability to have every
power and almost every special effect, to exploit every vulnerability
and susceptibility you can figure out
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 1:17:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

> The control cost is a relative pittance for the ability to have every
> power and almost every special effect, to exploit every vulnerability
> and susceptibility you can figure out

That's the GM's job: to make sure every power is acceptable before allowing
it in play. It's silly to disallow VPPs altogether just because of
potential abuse.

You've got a bigger problem on your hands if your player(s) are trying to
get over on you, instead of getting into the spirit and playing the game.
July 15, 2005 2:34:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:11:52 +0200, "Peter Knutsen (usenet)"
> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>
> >
> >>>>If I want to simulate lots of different attacks (one possible concept), then
> >>>>a Multipower.
> >>>
> >>>Does it have to be attacks?
> >>
> >> No. But Multipower is most useful for multiple attacks which can only
> >> be used one at a time.
> >
> >Wouldn't it also be good for magical abilities, which can
> >only be used one at a time?
>
> Sure. In fact the classic Multipower character used to be Ultraboy
> from the old Legion of Superheroes, who had just about all of
> Superboy's powers, but could only use them one at a time, so he could
> be super strong, or he could have enough armour to be virtually
> indestructible, but not both at the same time.

Which is where the HERO term "Ultra-slot" comes from, as all of us
old-time players know!

Gary
Anonymous
July 16, 2005 5:11:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:17:06 -0500, "Zamfir" <zamfir@pan-flute.com>
wrote:

>> The control cost is a relative pittance for the ability to have every
>> power and almost every special effect, to exploit every vulnerability
>> and susceptibility you can figure out
>
>That's the GM's job: to make sure every power is acceptable before allowing
>it in play.

Difficult to do when you have a character who can instantly pull new
powers out of his butt in play.
Anonymous
July 16, 2005 6:48:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:11:19 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:17:06 -0500, "Zamfir" <zamfir@pan-flute.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> The control cost is a relative pittance for the ability to have every
>>> power and almost every special effect, to exploit every vulnerability
>>> and susceptibility you can figure out
>>
>>That's the GM's job: to make sure every power is acceptable before allowing
>>it in play.
>
>Difficult to do when you have a character who can instantly pull new
>powers out of his butt in play.


When Steve Long wrote up the 5th edition rules, he expanded some of
them in ways that made it possible to really exploit the loopholes.
When asked why he did it that way, he explained that he wanted to be
able to do certain things with those powers. He couldn't do it under
the old rules, so he changed them. He went on to say that he didn't
want the rulebook to have to be the thing that prevented "rules
abuse", that that was something for the GMs to do.

VPPs haven't changed much (except of course there are more options
than ever on powers to build), but Steve's principle still applies.
It doesn't matter if something is allowed by the rules - it is your
responsibility and duty as a GM to disallow the things you find
unbalancing in your campaign.

In one campaign I'm in, all powers in a VPP have to be pre-approved by
the GM ahead of time. It's a darn nuisance, but it certainly prevents
pulling new powers out during game play.

In another campaign I'm in, the limit on the active point cost of a
VPP (including reserve) is the same size as the active point limit of
straight powers. In other words, if the campaign maximum for an EB is
60 points (12d6) and a player wants a "Cosmic" VPP that can be
anything (a +2 advantage on the cost of the reserve), the most he can
get is a 24 point VPP, i.e. 24 + (12 x 3) = 60. This lets the player
be creative as he likes while generally not overshadowing the other
players or busting the adventure you have planned. And if all his
hard work manipulating the VPP still lets the player bust your game
once in a while, think of it as his reward for all that hard work.
Players without VPPs also find ways to bust games now and then. <g>

Choose one of those or find your own solution. If they REALLY bother
you that much, ban VPPs entirely. But that should really be a
last-ditch desperation move - because that's banning a lot of fun. I
feel you can preserve most of the fun with lesser limits.

And don't forget - Villians can have VPPs too!
!