[ANNC] The Quest for Waitomo Cave

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The Quest for Waitomo Cave (Version 1.01)
By Paul Panks (dunric@yahoo.com)
Written in BLASSIC 0.8.1

The Waitomo Caves, nestled in the country of New
Zealand, were formed over 30 million years ago. You
first heard about the caves from your grandfather, who
was a periodic explorer of the famous caves.

You became fascinated by his stories of The Ghost
Walk, Bridal Chamber and Mirror Pool. He even
mentioned the existence of The Glowworm, a species of
insect which glowed internally in order to attract
food. Combined with further stories of underground
streams and fossilized shells, your desire became
exploring these caves.

Your goal in this game is to fully explore these
caves, and to uncover as much treasure (or other
objects) before the air becomes too foul to support
your spelunkering adventures.

For more information, please visit:

http://www.geocities.com/dunric/quest.html

Sincerely,

Paul Allen Panks [a/k/a "Dunric"]
dunric@yahoo.com
ICQ# 12234336

--
panks@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

 

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Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

[ Unlike the original, this partial review is I think relevant
to both newsgroups, so cross-posting retained.]

Declaration of interest: It's no secret that I've more
than once taken issue with Paul over his misuse of the
IF newsgroups for persistent self-promotion; you'd be
right to infer that this behaviour has prejudiced
me against the guy. However, I've never actually tried
one of Paul's games, so I felt that I owed him the benefit
of a little doubt: maybe there was real gold behind the
unappealing public facade. And thus I downloaded "The
Quest for Waitomo Cave".

Reader, I have to say that this game is not great. In fact
it's not even good; mediocre would be the least bad
adjective I could offer. It's not just that the game is a
mile wide and a millimetre deep (95 rooms, 81 with no
obvious purpose), or that the writing is dull and shallow
(two example descriptions: "scroll: an ancient scroll with
unknown script." which you can nevertheless read, and
"ghost: a translucent spectre haunting the caverns. He
appears ghostly."). The storyline is non-existent, the
gameplay is the sort that gives 'cave crawl' a bad name.
All, ALL, that the game involves is wandering those 95
rooms, killing anything that moves (or would move in a more
imaginative NPC implementation) and picking up the few
other items (almost all weapons). There's a hunger puzzle,
a thirst puzzle, a carrying capacity puzzle and a locked
door. There are plentiful opportunities to be randomly
killed without recourse. Since the multiple badly-described
rooms comprise a pretty good maze, the whole sorry
things-NOT-to-put-in-a-game picture is complete.

You're expected to perform unlikely actions without any
clue. For example, here's a room description:

"You are facing a smaller chamber within the Maori
Burial Ground. A small opening is here, housing a pile
of dusty bones. Whomever was buried here was given much
thought. The bones appear very brittle to the touch."

Needless to say, no BONES are implemented. However, should
you think to USE POLE, "Some gold is knocked down, so you pick
it up!". Why, for goodness sake?

I didn't take any pleasure in the dated feel, the two-word
parser, the lack of synonyms or adjectives; this is what
adventures were like 20-some years ago, as though Infocom
and all that followed had never happened.

You might imagine from the introductory blurb that this was
a game rooted in its location:

"The Waitomo Caves, nestled in the country of New
Zealand, were formed over 30 million years ago. You
first heard about the caves from your grandfather, who
was a periodic explorer of the famous caves."

Wrong again; other than that token mention of a "Maori
Burial Ground", it's totally anonymous; the whole thing could
be entitled "Grotto in Baghdad", or "Sicilian Cave Adventure"
or "Manhattan Subway Trip" and it would make no difference.
Especially as the cast of characters, there solely to be
ignored or hacked to death is: rat, skeleton, warrior, goblin,
hobbit, knight, barbarian, villager, sorcerer, thief, ghost,
paladin, elf, bard, werewolf, vampire, adventurer, demigorgon,
glowworm and dragon. Not a great deal of NZ substance, is
there? It could be anything, anywhere, anytime; in fact,
I suspect it's essentially identical to Paul's other works.
This is IF by numbers, untouched by reality, wit, or human
emotion. There's no involvement, no excitement, no pleasure;
the game offers you nothing at all.

But what's really depressing is that the author feels himself
able to offer advice on how to write adventure games.
There's really no excuse for publishing programs as poorly
coded as this -- a casebook example of write-only programming
(http://www.geocities.com/dunric/questsrc.html).
Even the earliest IF development systems were better than
Waitomo in Basic, while today ADRIFT, Hugo, Inform, Quest,
TADS... /anything/ would be an improvement on this stuff.
Even this: http://www.firthworks.com/roger/downloads/Quest.z5,
the whole thing re-implemented, albeit roughly and quickly,
in Inform. It's not a slavish replica, but it gives the
general feel (though without the random deaths and the garish
colour). The playing experience is scarcely any better, but at
least the source is maintainable and potentially improvable.
Though whether anybody would wish to improve such a
fundamentally threadbare concept is, clearly, open to
question and I certainly don't intend to get involved in
any debate about how closely my Inform version follows the
original. It's there just to make the point: it's not difficult
to do this stuff better, for those ready to listen and learn,
and to shift from self-satisfied towards self-critical.

As I said up front, I didn't really expect to like the game,
and my expectations were completely fulfilled. Given the
history, Paul will obviously think I'm biased and unfair.
Feel free to come to your own conclusion.

Cheers, Roger
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
You'll find all my IF pages at http://www.firthworks.com/roger
WARNING: aggressive spam deletion -- use a meaningful Subject!

 

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Roger,

To be fair, I wrote "The Quest for Waitomo Cave" in one day (8 hours, to
be precise). It is not meant to be an advanced adventure game. In fact, it
is a simple two-word parser adventure game that would remind one of
adventures games over 20 years ago.

Some of my more advanced adventure games, however, are far more complex.
And they do play as MUDs.

My best works of interactive fiction, that I would recommend, are:

1. Westfront PC: The Trials of Guilder

(Play the MS-DOS version for a less confused, more stable version):

ftp://ftp.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/pc/wftrans.zip

2. The Magic Flute

Plays much more like a traditional text adventure.

ftp://ftp.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/pc/magicflu.zip

3. Westfront Omega: The Amulet of Vega

Ditto.

ftp://ftp.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/pc/amulvega.zip

4. HLA Adventure

ftp://ftp.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/pc/hlaadv.zip

I have several games for the Commodore 64/128, Plus/4 and Vic-20 that
also are complex and play very well:

http://www.geocities.com/dunric/pauladv.html

All of the games listed on my Commodore Adventures Page can be played via
the VICE emulator for the Commodore 64/128.

In short, most of my games play like a very advanced version of "HLA
Adventure" and "Westfront PC: The Trials of Guilder" (MS-DOS version,
wftrans.zip).

If you'd like to play probably the largest game I've ever written, try out
the Windows version of "Westfront PC: The Trials of Guilder", which plays
like a MUD in every single respect:

ftp://ftp.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/pc/wfpc.zip

The very closest game I have written to a 100% text adventure is "The
Magic Flute". That can be downloaded below:

ftp://ftp.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/pc/magicflu.zip

You can examine just about everything described within the room
descriptions, and that includes what is written in the room descriptions
themselves. Ditto with "Westfront Omega: The Amulet of Vega".

For all of these games in one place, visit download.com at:

http://download.com.com/3120-20-0.html?qt=panks&tg=dl-2001

Sincerely,

Paul Allen Panks
dunric@yahoo.com



In rec.games.int-fiction Roger Firth
<roger@firthworks.com>
wrote: > [ Unlike the original, this partial review is I think relevant
> to both newsgroups, so cross-posting retained.]

> Declaration of interest: It's no secret that I've more
> than once taken issue with Paul over his misuse of the
> IF newsgroups for persistent self-promotion; you'd be
> right to infer that this behaviour has prejudiced
> me against the guy. However, I've never actually tried
> one of Paul's games, so I felt that I owed him the benefit
> of a little doubt: maybe there was real gold behind the
> unappealing public facade. And thus I downloaded "The
> Quest for Waitomo Cave".

> Reader, I have to say that this game is not great. In fact
> it's not even good; mediocre would be the least bad
> adjective I could offer. It's not just that the game is a
> mile wide and a millimetre deep (95 rooms, 81 with no
> obvious purpose), or that the writing is dull and shallow
> (two example descriptions: "scroll: an ancient scroll with
> unknown script." which you can nevertheless read, and
> "ghost: a translucent spectre haunting the caverns. He
> appears ghostly."). The storyline is non-existent, the
> gameplay is the sort that gives 'cave crawl' a bad name.
> All, ALL, that the game involves is wandering those 95
> rooms, killing anything that moves (or would move in a more
> imaginative NPC implementation) and picking up the few
> other items (almost all weapons). There's a hunger puzzle,
> a thirst puzzle, a carrying capacity puzzle and a locked
> door. There are plentiful opportunities to be randomly
> killed without recourse. Since the multiple badly-described
> rooms comprise a pretty good maze, the whole sorry
> things-NOT-to-put-in-a-game picture is complete.

> You're expected to perform unlikely actions without any
> clue. For example, here's a room description:

> "You are facing a smaller chamber within the Maori
> Burial Ground. A small opening is here, housing a pile
> of dusty bones. Whomever was buried here was given much
> thought. The bones appear very brittle to the touch."

> Needless to say, no BONES are implemented. However, should
> you think to USE POLE, "Some gold is knocked down, so you pick
> it up!". Why, for goodness sake?

> I didn't take any pleasure in the dated feel, the two-word
> parser, the lack of synonyms or adjectives; this is what
> adventures were like 20-some years ago, as though Infocom
> and all that followed had never happened.

> You might imagine from the introductory blurb that this was
> a game rooted in its location:

> "The Waitomo Caves, nestled in the country of New
> Zealand, were formed over 30 million years ago. You
> first heard about the caves from your grandfather, who
> was a periodic explorer of the famous caves."

> Wrong again; other than that token mention of a "Maori
> Burial Ground", it's totally anonymous; the whole thing could
> be entitled "Grotto in Baghdad", or "Sicilian Cave Adventure"
> or "Manhattan Subway Trip" and it would make no difference.
> Especially as the cast of characters, there solely to be
> ignored or hacked to death is: rat, skeleton, warrior, goblin,
> hobbit, knight, barbarian, villager, sorcerer, thief, ghost,
> paladin, elf, bard, werewolf, vampire, adventurer, demigorgon,
> glowworm and dragon. Not a great deal of NZ substance, is
> there? It could be anything, anywhere, anytime; in fact,
> I suspect it's essentially identical to Paul's other works.
> This is IF by numbers, untouched by reality, wit, or human
> emotion. There's no involvement, no excitement, no pleasure;
> the game offers you nothing at all.

> But what's really depressing is that the author feels himself
> able to offer advice on how to write adventure games.
> There's really no excuse for publishing programs as poorly
> coded as this -- a casebook example of write-only programming
> (http://www.geocities.com/dunric/questsrc.html).
> Even the earliest IF development systems were better than
> Waitomo in Basic, while today ADRIFT, Hugo, Inform, Quest,
> TADS... /anything/ would be an improvement on this stuff.
> Even this: http://www.firthworks.com/roger/downloads/Quest.z5,
> the whole thing re-implemented, albeit roughly and quickly,
> in Inform. It's not a slavish replica, but it gives the
> general feel (though without the random deaths and the garish
> colour). The playing experience is scarcely any better, but at
> least the source is maintainable and potentially improvable.
> Though whether anybody would wish to improve such a
> fundamentally threadbare concept is, clearly, open to
> question and I certainly don't intend to get involved in
> any debate about how closely my Inform version follows the
> original. It's there just to make the point: it's not difficult
> to do this stuff better, for those ready to listen and learn,
> and to shift from self-satisfied towards self-critical.

> As I said up front, I didn't really expect to like the game,
> and my expectations were completely fulfilled. Given the
> history, Paul will obviously think I'm biased and unfair.
> Feel free to come to your own conclusion.

> Cheers, Roger
> --
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> You'll find all my IF pages at http://www.firthworks.com/roger
> WARNING: aggressive spam deletion -- use a meaningful Subject!



--
panks@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

 

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Paul Allen Panks <panks@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in message news:<calvfn$fs3$1@chessie.cirr.com>...
> Roger,
>
> To be fair, I wrote "The Quest for Waitomo Cave" in one day (8 hours, to
> be precise). It is not meant to be an advanced adventure game. In fact, it
> is a simple two-word parser adventure game that would remind one of
> adventures games over 20 years ago.

Wouldn't it have been an idea to mention this in your original post?

 

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"Paul Allen Panks" <panks@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in message
news:calvfn$fs3$1@chessie.cirr.com...

> To be fair, I wrote "The Quest for Waitomo Cave" in one day (8 hours, to
> be precise). It is not meant to be an advanced adventure game. In fact, it
> is a simple two-word parser adventure game that would remind one of
> adventures games over 20 years ago.

Why? What's the point in cobbling together a game in precisely 8 hours,
if it's poorly written, badly tested and painful to play? The ONLY reason
I can see is that it gives you another reason to promote the PAP brandname,
cynically ignoring the fact that the game isn't worth anybody's time.

> Some of my more advanced adventure games, however, are far more complex.
> And they do play as MUDs.

So? What does this mean, and why should I look better upon them?

> The very closest game I have written to a 100% text adventure is "The
> Magic Flute". That can be downloaded below:

My patience here is in short supply, but I've given this one five minutes.
It starts thus:

On the path to town
You are on a western road near the entrance to a small village. An
iron gate breaks monotony to the south, complete with an archway and
scaling
herb vines. The road you are traveling on breaks off here into town.
Obvious exits: < South East >
>x gate
I don't know the word 'gate'.
>examine gate
This is a large iron gate. There are vines surrounding it on either side
while a large stone archway is visible about it.
>s
A gentle wind blows and you feel stronger...
You move South...
It is too dark to see clearly...
It is too dark to see!
Obvious exits: < North South >
>s
The sun shines and you feel better...
It's too dark, but you try anyway...
You move South...
It is too dark to see clearly...
It is too dark to see!
Obvious exits: < North South >
>

Three things to note. Read the first paragraph: do you understand where
you are? What's this 'western road' when you can't go west? What's this
'iron gate' apparently in the middle of nowhere? Why does the road
'break off'? Is it a town or a small village? In other words, this is an
awful muddled start. It completely fails to paint an inviting mental picture
of who and where I am.

Then the game lies to me: "I don't know the word 'gate'".

Then the game lies to me again: "The sun shines and you feel better...
It's too dark, but you try anyway..."

To quote LRR from the Wikipedia thread "Why should I play your game
'all the way through' when the beginning of your game inspires in me
no desire to do so?" And so I went no further.

But I did glance at the source. Well, whaddya know? There's a hunger
puzzle, a thirst puzzle, a carrying capacity puzzle and a locked
door. There are plentiful opportunities to be randomly
killed without recourse. There's a lantern, oil, key, rope, scroll, bottle,
pole, orb, sword, dagger, scimitar, broadsword, ring, armor, boots,
helmet. There's a similar cast of cardboard attackers. And there's
the same mismatch between words and actions. "CRUSHING
BLOW! Your torso is destroyed!" or "AMAZING BLOW! You are
smashed into atoms!" Actually, you've just been wounded, but
the words tell lies again.

In a text adventure, the words are your only medium: they have
to clearly convey what you can see, what you can do, what's
happening all around. If the words are visibly untrue, the player
gives up. Like this one just did.

I don't think you've written 30 games; I think you've written the
same game 30 times. And once is more than enough for me.

Cheers, Roger
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
You'll find all my IF pages at http://www.firthworks.com/roger
WARNING: aggressive spam deletion -- use a meaningful Subject!

 

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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Paul Allen Panks wrote:

> To be fair, I wrote "The Quest for Waitomo Cave" in one day (8 hours, to
> be precise). It is not meant to be an advanced adventure game. In fact,
> it is a simple two-word parser adventure game that would remind one of
> adventures games over 20 years ago.
>
> Some of my more advanced adventure games, however, are far more complex.
> And they do play as MUDs.
>
> My best works of interactive fiction, that I would recommend, are:

You know, this is exactly what everyone is complaining about. Every
opportunity you get, you start plugging your own laundry list of games
like a digital pat on the back.

> Thrives on publicity??? If I wanted to be famous, I'd charge $19.95 for
> a collection of my games and sell it in stores all over the country. Or
> I'd write for a large video game and computer magazine. Or I'd become an
> IT professional and work on the next supercomputer mainframe for NASA.

To be more accurate, you seem to thrive on calling attention to yourself
(since before you, you seem to have gotten very little attention from
R*IF). Yeah, I agree, there are certainly bigger and better ways to do it
(though being an IT pro at NASA is certainly not one of them). Which is
why it's all the more baffling to me. I work with someone who thrives on
calling attention to himself. I think it's a subconscious need that goes
unfulfilled, and he's not always aware that his spotlight-grabbing
activities are driven by this deep-down craving for the attention of
others.

I'm not going to say your games are no good. I've never played any of
them. Frankly, your constant and gratuitous self-promotion have alone
convinced me not to play your games.

/====================================================================\
|| Quintin Stone O- > "You speak of necessary evil? One ||
|| Code Monkey < of those necessities is that if ||
|| Rebel Programmers Society > innocents must suffer, the guilty must ||
|| stone@rps.net < suffer more." -- Mackenzie Calhoun ||
|| http://www.rps.net/QS/ > "Once Burned" by Peter David ||
\====================================================================/

 

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"Roger Firth" <roger@firthworks.com> wrote:

[snip]

>Three things to note. Read the first paragraph: do you understand where
>you are? What's this 'western road' when you can't go west? What's this

While you do have points, I think you are straining for them. I
believed you erred with this point:

A road in the west, not one that necessarily goes that way.

You are in British Columbia, a western province of Canada.
(Actually, the westernmost province).
>go west
You can not go that way.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

 

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Quintin Stone <stone@rps.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Paul Allen Panks wrote:

[snip]

>> My best works of interactive fiction, that I would recommend, are:
>
>You know, this is exactly what everyone is complaining about. Every
>opportunity you get, you start plugging your own laundry list of games
>like a digital pat on the back.

So what? If you do not like a commercial, then do not pay
attention. I would rather see someone promoting IF than not.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

 

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Roger,

Many of my games do have similar splots, but not all of them. The
Commodore adventures, in particularly, are quite advanced and deviate
substantially from my normal adventure games.

See:

http://www.geocities.com/dunric/pauladv.html

Paul

 

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Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote:

> Quintin Stone <stone@rps.net> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Paul Allen Panks wrote:
>
> >> My best works of interactive fiction, that I would recommend, are:
> >
> >You know, this is exactly what everyone is complaining about. Every
> >opportunity you get, you start plugging your own laundry list of games
> >like a digital pat on the back.
>
> So what? If you do not like a commercial, then do not pay
> attention. I would rather see someone promoting IF than not.

The advertisement pages in my local rag don't make the thing more
expensive. Bandwidth costs. Moreover, normal advertisers are rarely as
insistent as Mr. Panks. Mostly, though, it's just bad Usenettership.

Richard

 

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Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
> So what? If you do not like a commercial, then do not pay
> attention. I would rather see someone promoting IF than not.

I like flame-wars! They're fun, fun, fun!!!!



(If I'm not the one being flamed...)

 

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Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:<jdbuc0pis61g8g9fs13kbm81tbh6av98hm@4ax.com>...
> "Roger Firth" <roger@firthworks.com> wrote:
> >Three things to note. Read the first paragraph: do you understand where
> >you are? What's this 'western road' when you can't go west? What's this
>
> While you do have points, I think you are straining for them.

But when a whole bunch of obvious errors and imbecilities leap out
in the first minute of gameplay, one doesn't have to strain very hard.

> I believed you erred with this point:
>
> A road in the west [is] not one that necessarily goes that way.

That's just pedantic. The road in the game goes east into town,
so it goes west out of town. The point is that we're given no
reason why it doesn't continue west, other than that "west"
isn't implemented.

Stephen.

 

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rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
>
>> Quintin Stone <stone@rps.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Paul Allen Panks wrote:
>>
>> >> My best works of interactive fiction, that I would recommend, are:
>> >
>> >You know, this is exactly what everyone is complaining about. Every
>> >opportunity you get, you start plugging your own laundry list of games
>> >like a digital pat on the back.
>>
>> So what? If you do not like a commercial, then do not pay
>> attention. I would rather see someone promoting IF than not.
>
>The advertisement pages in my local rag don't make the thing more
>expensive. Bandwidth costs. Moreover, normal advertisers are rarely as
>insistent as Mr. Panks. Mostly, though, it's just bad Usenettership.

Oh, well. I do not agree with everything posted here either.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

 

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Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote :

> I would rather see someone promoting IF than not.

But Paul doesn't promote IF; all is does is relentlessly push
his own stuff, and nothing else, in an increasingly demented
manner. Annoying as this is, I can't really blame him: it's
probably what any diagnosed schizophrenic with attention-deficit
and obsessive-compulsive disorders would do in his situation.

Doubts about the mental health of other RAIF trolls are probably
idle speculation, but in Paul's case we have something like
documented evidence. (And if you don't believe me, search Google
Groups for 'Paul', 'Panks' and 'schizophrenia'.) The notion that
Westfront PC is a landmark work of IF is as real to him as the
voices in his head. Trying to convince him otherwise is just
going to increase blood pressure on both sides.

Paul hasn't been as candid about his illness on RAIF as he has
on other groups, so I hope he won't mind me mentioning it here.
My intention is not to "expose" him, but to make people more
inclined to understand (and then ignore) his behaviour. And
hopefully to end these threads.

Stephen.

 

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Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote :

> I would rather see someone promoting IF than not.

But Paul doesn't promote IF; all is does is relentlessly push
his own stuff, and nothing else, in an increasingly demented
manner. Annoying as this is, I can't really blame him: it's
probably what any diagnosed schizophrenic with attention-deficit
and obsessive-compulsive disorders would do in his situation.

Doubts about the mental health of other RAIF trolls are probably
idle speculation, but in Paul's case we have something like
documented evidence. (And if you don't believe me, search Google
Groups for 'Paul', 'Panks' and 'schizophrenia'.) The notion that
Westfront PC is a landmark work of IF is as real to him as the
voices in his head. Trying to convince him otherwise is just
going to increase blood pressure on both sides.

Paul hasn't been as candid about his illness on RAIF as he has
on other groups, so I hope he won't mind me mentioning it here.
My intention is not to "expose" him, but to make people more
inclined to understand (and then ignore) his behaviour. And
hopefully to end these threads.

Stephen.

 

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stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:<jdbuc0pis61g8g9fs13kbm81tbh6av98hm@4ax.com>...
>> "Roger Firth" <roger@firthworks.com> wrote:
>> >Three things to note. Read the first paragraph: do you understand where
>> >you are? What's this 'western road' when you can't go west? What's this
>>
>> While you do have points, I think you are straining for them.
>
>But when a whole bunch of obvious errors and imbecilities leap out
>in the first minute of gameplay, one doesn't have to strain very hard.

True, but going for that last one was straining.

>> I believed you erred with this point:
>>
>> A road in the west [is] not one that necessarily goes that way.
>
>That's just pedantic. The road in the game goes east into town,
>so it goes west out of town. The point is that we're given no
>reason why it doesn't continue west, other than that "west"
>isn't implemented.

I thought the road in question went north-south, or is that
another road?

Perhaps, you are missing the point. There is considerable vitrol
over Mr. Panks's games. Why bother with them if they are so bad?
Just move on.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

 

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Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> Are you qualified to make such a diagnosis?

You obviously didn't read the many posts where Paul himself
described his illness; I'm not making this stuff up, or
repeating accusations made by other people. And again, my
intention was not to attack Paul, but to help people understand
his behaviour.

Stephen.

 

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Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> I thought the road in question went north-south, or is that
> another road?

Well, the player is "on the path to town", and the town is to the
east. So at least some bit of the road goes east, and therefore
west (assuming this fantasy kingdom doesn't have a one-way
system). But even if the town is east of a north-south road
(and it's admittedly not clear), then why can't I go north?
The lack of an exit in any direction other than south
and east is not explained. The scene just hasn't been imagined
thoroughly enough.

> Perhaps, you are missing the point. There is considerable vitrol
> over Mr. Panks's games. Why bother with them if they are so bad?

Well, this is one part of the Panks threads where we're
actually criticising his *games*, and like it or not, game
criticism is on-topic in the newsgroups (it's actually kind of
the point of RGIF). Indeed, if you're into the whole
"constructive criticism" thing, the discussion of why this
room description fails might even be useful for the author
or other authors.

Stephen.

 

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stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
>> Are you qualified to make such a diagnosis?
>
>You obviously didn't read the many posts where Paul himself
>described his illness; I'm not making this stuff up, or
>repeating accusations made by other people. And again, my
>intention was not to attack Paul, but to help people understand
>his behaviour.

I repeat: are you qualified to make such a diagnosis?

Oh, you are simply repeating what others say? A gossip then.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

 

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"Stephen Bond" <stephenbond@ireland.com> wrote in message
news:c9b27022.0406160740.6fb27d7d@posting.google.com...
>
> But Paul doesn't promote IF; all is does is relentlessly push
> his own stuff, and nothing else, in an increasingly demented
> manner.
>

I guess I could understand him more if he had a massively devoted following
on these boards who waited with baited breath for his every utterance. But
as he seems to be his only fan, it's pretty bizarre the way he continues to
post to a newsgroup who clearly don't care less what he has to say.

 

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On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:50:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
> stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:
(snip)
>>Doubts about the mental health of other RAIF trolls are probably
>>idle speculation, but in Paul's case we have something like
>>documented evidence. (And if you don't believe me, search Google
>>Groups for 'Paul', 'Panks' and 'schizophrenia'.) The notion that
>>Westfront PC is a landmark work of IF is as real to him as the
>>voices in his head. Trying to convince him otherwise is just
>>going to increase blood pressure on both sides.
>
> Do you believe everything you read on the Net? If I were to post
> something attacking your sanity because of this disagreement here,
> would you like to see someone posting something like your last
> paragraph about you, suggesting to Google?

On the first page of that search, there is a post by somebody using the
name "Paul Panks" talking about his person experiences as a
schizophreniac. Said post specifically mentions being the author of
Westfront PC.

Either:
1) Somebody forged messages in Paul's name
2) Paul was lying in that post
or
3) Paul has been diagnosed with schizophrenia



--
------------------------
Mark Jeffrey Tilford
tilford@ugcs.caltech.edu

 

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"Mark J. Tilford" <tilford@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:50:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
>> stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:
>(snip)
>>>Doubts about the mental health of other RAIF trolls are probably
>>>idle speculation, but in Paul's case we have something like
>>>documented evidence. (And if you don't believe me, search Google
>>>Groups for 'Paul', 'Panks' and 'schizophrenia'.) The notion that
>>>Westfront PC is a landmark work of IF is as real to him as the
>>>voices in his head. Trying to convince him otherwise is just
>>>going to increase blood pressure on both sides.
>>
>> Do you believe everything you read on the Net? If I were to post
>> something attacking your sanity because of this disagreement here,
>> would you like to see someone posting something like your last
>> paragraph about you, suggesting to Google?
>
>On the first page of that search, there is a post by somebody using the
>name "Paul Panks" talking about his person experiences as a
>schizophreniac. Said post specifically mentions being the author of
>Westfront PC.
>
>Either:
>1) Somebody forged messages in Paul's name
>2) Paul was lying in that post
>or
>3) Paul has been diagnosed with schizophrenia

If it is #1, you are libelling Mr. Panks.

If it is #2, maybe, you are being trolled.

If it is #3, he has enough problems without you (or anyone else)
adding to them.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

 

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"Gene Wirchenko" <genew@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message
news:l161d013jjiuiu9vq6uth58h04lku0dfg6@4ax.com...
> stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:
>
> Perhaps, you are missing the point. There is considerable vitrol
> over Mr. Panks's games. Why bother with them if they are so bad?
> Just move on.
>

I think people *would* move on if Paul didn't keep harping on about his
games every five minutes. If he left people to judge for themselves what was
good and what was bad, this debate would never have started in the first
place.

 

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"Mark J. Tilford" <tilford@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:slrncd1dp9.bdf.tilford@ralph.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:50:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net>
wrote:
> > stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:
> On the first page of that search, there is a post by somebody using the
> name "Paul Panks" talking about his person experiences as a
> schizophreniac. Said post specifically mentions being the author of
> Westfront PC.
>

I'm not sure what's more worrying: Paul genuinely having mental problems or
*still* managing to plug his games while talking about them.

 

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On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:09:11 +0100, David Whyld <me@dwhyld.plus.com> wrote:
>
> "Mark J. Tilford" <tilford@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:slrncd1dp9.bdf.tilford@ralph.earthlink.net...
>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:50:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <genew@mail.ocis.net>
> wrote:
>> > stephenbond@ireland.com (Stephen Bond) wrote:
>> On the first page of that search, there is a post by somebody using the
>> name "Paul Panks" talking about his person experiences as a
>> schizophreniac. Said post specifically mentions being the author of
>> Westfront PC.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what's more worrying: Paul genuinely having mental problems or
> *still* managing to plug his games while talking about them.
>
Actually, IIRC, he was more saying that he'd gotten banned from some
webforums for incessantly plugging WFPC. It's hard to believe he
understood then and no longer does...

Then again, I tried running WFPC. It showed about four separate plugs for
the game before putting up the restore old game / start new game prompt,
despite the fact that, when somebody runs WFPC, THEY HAVE ALREADY
DOWNLOADED IT, and there is no need to urge them to do so.


--
------------------------
Mark Jeffrey Tilford
tilford@ugcs.caltech.edu